Shark Science to Academy Fellow: Dr. Michelle Heupel's Journey

1
00:00:00,368 --> 00:00:03,869
Imagine you're a scientist who throughout your entire career has worked

2
00:00:04,069 --> 00:00:07,729
on sharks, that's built up to work on technology and

3
00:00:07,769 --> 00:00:11,110
looking at observing systems and monitoring and data in

4
00:00:11,130 --> 00:00:14,811
the oceans, and then all of a sudden you get inducted

5
00:00:14,831 --> 00:00:18,771
into an academy where you have the ability to

6
00:00:18,891 --> 00:00:22,252
have a lasting impression on

7
00:00:22,552 --> 00:00:25,973
science in general, not just oceans, not just on sharks, but in science

8
00:00:26,013 --> 00:00:29,335
in general in a country like Australia. That is what

9
00:00:29,355 --> 00:00:33,020
we're going to be talking about today because Dr. Michelle Heupel has

10
00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,644
had that opportunity presented to her as a fellow

11
00:00:37,025 --> 00:00:40,349
in an academy. We're going to talk about that on this episode of

12
00:00:40,409 --> 00:00:43,812
the Beyond Jaws podcast. Let's start the show. Hey, everybody,

13
00:00:43,832 --> 00:00:47,053
welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. I'm

14
00:00:47,073 --> 00:00:51,454
your co-host, Andrew Lewin, here with my co-host, Dr. Dave Vertebert. Dave,

15
00:00:55,135 --> 00:00:58,616
Absolutely, Andrew. I'm really looking forward. I'm so super happy

16
00:00:58,656 --> 00:01:02,517
to see somebody like Michelle be added

17
00:01:02,557 --> 00:01:06,458
as a fellow for the Australian Academy of Technology, Sciences, and

18
00:01:06,518 --> 00:01:09,959
Engineering. I've known Michelle for quite a while, and she's

19
00:01:10,459 --> 00:01:14,062
just always been a real star in the feel the shark science

20
00:01:14,122 --> 00:01:17,783
and to see her kind of cross over and move up into running

21
00:01:17,824 --> 00:01:21,005
this Australia's Integrated Marine Observing System and then

22
00:01:21,085 --> 00:01:24,807
be, and now be named a fellow is just, is amazing. And

23
00:01:25,087 --> 00:01:28,589
as we'll talk about today, she's the first shark person

24
00:01:29,229 --> 00:01:32,731
to be named to such a prestigious group. And

25
00:01:33,331 --> 00:01:36,633
there's not even very many people with a marine science background in

26
00:01:36,673 --> 00:01:41,495
that particular organization. So, amazing accomplishment

27
00:01:41,535 --> 00:01:45,659
for Michelle and I really, Hope everybody enjoys today's episode,

28
00:01:45,759 --> 00:01:49,080
catching up with Michelle. And as we mentioned at

29
00:01:49,100 --> 00:01:52,861
the outset, she was only our fourth guest ever, which

30
00:01:52,921 --> 00:01:56,282
is about 100 episodes ago. And so that's really

31
00:01:56,302 --> 00:01:59,495
nice to have her back on. She couldn't even believe it had been out. how

32
00:01:59,535 --> 00:02:02,897
long it had been. So anyway, we're really glad to welcome her back,

33
00:02:04,418 --> 00:02:07,600
Well, time flies when you're busy. Not only us, but so is she. She's been up to a

34
00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,021
lot. And I'm looking forward to hearing more about this

35
00:02:11,061 --> 00:02:14,463
fellowship. So here is the interview with Dr. Michelle Hyppel. Let's

36
00:02:15,144 --> 00:02:18,786
enjoy the interview, and we'll talk to you after. Hey, Michelle. Welcome back

37
00:02:18,846 --> 00:02:22,348
to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to talk about sharks?

38
00:02:25,749 --> 00:02:29,090
I love it. Well, today we have a special bonus episode of

39
00:02:29,110 --> 00:02:32,392
the Beyond JAWS podcast. Today we have the fabulous and

40
00:02:32,432 --> 00:02:35,874
highly accomplished Dr. Michelle Hypalon as our guest. Michelle,

41
00:02:35,914 --> 00:02:39,276
if you recall, for those who've been listening for a long time, she was one of our first guests,

42
00:02:39,296 --> 00:02:42,478
in fact, our fourth guest ever on the podcast back in

43
00:02:42,558 --> 00:02:45,700
August of 2021. And so we thought it a good time to catch up

44
00:02:45,740 --> 00:02:50,282
with her. Michelle is the director of the Australian Integrated

45
00:02:50,342 --> 00:02:53,884
Marine Observing System and was recently named a fellow of the Australian

46
00:02:53,924 --> 00:02:57,443
Academy of Technology. Sciences and Engineering. And

47
00:03:04,187 --> 00:03:07,249
Great. Cool. Well, first of all, we got to

48
00:03:13,432 --> 00:03:17,695
Yeah, so this is for me a really unique and exciting opportunity.

49
00:03:18,595 --> 00:03:22,518
The U.S. has the American Academy of Science. Australia

50
00:03:22,578 --> 00:03:25,825
has similar academies. And this is

51
00:03:25,925 --> 00:03:29,147
one of them. So we have the Australian Academy of Science, but we

52
00:03:29,187 --> 00:03:32,829
also have the Australian Academy of Technological Sciences and Engineering.

53
00:03:32,849 --> 00:03:36,291
And that's the one that I've been was nominated for

54
00:03:36,351 --> 00:03:39,653
and been inducted into. The difference between the

55
00:03:39,713 --> 00:03:42,915
two Australian societies is ATSE or the

56
00:03:42,955 --> 00:03:46,298
Technology Science and Engineering Academy is

57
00:03:46,338 --> 00:03:49,560
more focused on applied science. So people who have made sort of

58
00:03:49,620 --> 00:03:53,408
real world changes and driven used science

59
00:03:53,528 --> 00:03:56,830
to to create change and benefit and that's

60
00:03:57,151 --> 00:04:00,273
that's where I've tried to push my career and

61
00:04:05,476 --> 00:04:08,559
Yeah, it seems like quite a quite an accomplishment for you, but I

62
00:04:08,719 --> 00:04:12,021
know you've been a very accomplished person throughout

63
00:04:12,061 --> 00:04:15,343
your career and so that was quite a quite a milestone to

64
00:04:15,363 --> 00:04:18,466
to receive that award. Is it is it now is it

65
00:04:19,963 --> 00:04:23,124
So what kind of benefits do you get with this thing?

66
00:04:23,164 --> 00:04:26,324
Any particular benefits come along with it? Do

67
00:04:32,526 --> 00:04:35,866
Yeah, no Rolexes or anything. So I

68
00:04:35,886 --> 00:04:39,167
get to call myself a fellow, which is, you know, as a woman, I've never been

69
00:04:39,187 --> 00:04:42,948
called a fellow before. So that's interesting. I

70
00:04:42,968 --> 00:04:46,270
get some extra letters behind my name. But

71
00:04:46,310 --> 00:04:49,853
I'm part of a really prestigious community of scientists in

72
00:04:49,893 --> 00:04:53,976
Australia. There are over 900 scientists

73
00:04:54,757 --> 00:04:57,960
in the ATSI Academy. And

74
00:04:58,420 --> 00:05:01,603
what we do is respond to issues that are

75
00:05:01,643 --> 00:05:06,326
happening in the world. So write advice

76
00:05:06,567 --> 00:05:09,649
to government, respond to government policies, and

77
00:05:10,770 --> 00:05:14,413
try to make sure that there's a science and technology lens for

78
00:05:15,884 --> 00:05:20,388
Okay, so you're the first shark researcher, male

79
00:05:22,210 --> 00:05:25,933
As far as I know, yes. There are actually a

80
00:05:26,034 --> 00:05:29,457
few marine scientists in the Academy, but not very many.

81
00:05:32,079 --> 00:05:35,362
I found a list online, I was scanning through it, and I didn't see any, I

82
00:05:35,382 --> 00:05:38,485
didn't go through the whole list, but I didn't see anyone even close to

83
00:05:38,525 --> 00:05:42,193
shark stuff, so I thought like, wow, this is kind of very accomplished being coming

84
00:05:42,233 --> 00:05:46,075
from a shark background, because it's not something shark people usually get recognized for.

85
00:05:46,135 --> 00:05:49,976
So that makes it even more of a significant accomplishment.

86
00:05:52,498 --> 00:05:56,119
Yeah, look, I was surprised to

87
00:05:56,159 --> 00:06:00,121
be nominated and inducted. And this

88
00:06:00,441 --> 00:06:03,562
is a broad church of people, right? So it's engineers and

89
00:06:03,602 --> 00:06:07,144
technology people, and they talk about artificial intelligence and

90
00:06:07,644 --> 00:06:11,426
all these sorts of things. So for me, it's a really unique opportunity

91
00:06:11,466 --> 00:06:15,244
to meet you know, broad group of scientists and hear their perspectives

92
00:06:15,324 --> 00:06:18,706
and think about things in different ways and think about how,

93
00:06:19,326 --> 00:06:22,628
you know, we could work collectively to try

94
00:06:22,648 --> 00:06:26,150
and provide advice or, you know, inform things going

95
00:06:26,210 --> 00:06:29,852
forward. But really, my nomination was

96
00:06:29,932 --> 00:06:33,034
based on the work that I had done, you

97
00:06:33,074 --> 00:06:36,456
know, in tracking sharks and the use of technology to try

98
00:06:36,516 --> 00:06:40,298
and understand what's happening with sharks. So that application

99
00:06:40,518 --> 00:06:44,411
of technology into helping support management

100
00:06:44,471 --> 00:06:47,853
was really the basis of my induction into

101
00:06:49,014 --> 00:06:53,357
Let me ask this just based on your career. Last

102
00:06:53,397 --> 00:06:57,720
time we had you on, I think it was the fourth episode Dave mentioned, now

103
00:06:58,380 --> 00:07:01,542
we're 100 episodes later and we're talking to

104
00:07:01,602 --> 00:07:05,025
you and the first time we talked to you was how you built your career

105
00:07:05,065 --> 00:07:08,187
to where you were to this point in time. That was a

106
00:07:08,227 --> 00:07:11,584
couple of years ago. For this

107
00:07:11,644 --> 00:07:14,666
to be inducted into the Academy as a

108
00:07:14,746 --> 00:07:18,268
fellow, what does this mean to you as

109
00:07:18,308 --> 00:07:21,710
a scientist in general, not just as a shark scientist, but as a scientist in

110
00:07:21,790 --> 00:07:25,092
general, to have this ability to have sort

111
00:07:25,112 --> 00:07:29,075
of an influence on how things are dealt with in

112
00:07:29,135 --> 00:07:32,296
terms of what the Academy deals with in terms of science across the

113
00:07:34,258 --> 00:07:37,940
Yeah, look, it's a genuine honor to be included

114
00:07:38,403 --> 00:07:42,246
in these societies, it is a very prestigious thing. And

115
00:07:42,286 --> 00:07:45,728
it's a recognition that you've, you've made a contribution, you

116
00:07:45,768 --> 00:07:49,731
know, a recognizable contribution that your peers, because you're

117
00:07:49,811 --> 00:07:53,114
elected into these things based on the opinions of

118
00:07:53,234 --> 00:07:56,876
other, you know, high level scientists. So it's recognition

119
00:07:56,916 --> 00:08:00,059
that those people think what I have been doing is

120
00:08:00,139 --> 00:08:03,241
making a valuable contribution. So that that in

121
00:08:03,301 --> 00:08:07,056
itself, I think, is a really like I said, unexpected,

122
00:08:07,096 --> 00:08:10,419
but a really rewarding, you know, thing for me to know

123
00:08:10,499 --> 00:08:14,041
that even though I work in this, for most of them, in this really odd

124
00:08:14,462 --> 00:08:18,024
space, right? I mean, like I said, they're engineers and mathematicians and

125
00:08:18,084 --> 00:08:21,447
all these people, and then they've got this shark nerd sort of sitting

126
00:08:21,487 --> 00:08:24,649
in the corner. But for me, it

127
00:08:24,689 --> 00:08:28,112
means that they see the value in the kinds of things that,

128
00:08:28,232 --> 00:08:31,875
you know, that people like me have done and can contribute

129
00:08:35,522 --> 00:08:39,144
With your current position, do you have much to do with the

130
00:08:39,184 --> 00:08:42,627
shark world still or do you just keep your hands out in

131
00:08:47,150 --> 00:08:51,032
I'm getting further and further away from the shark business. There

132
00:08:51,312 --> 00:08:54,615
are a few people who still include me on papers and

133
00:08:54,695 --> 00:08:58,237
people I've worked with in the past that we're, as most scientists,

134
00:08:58,277 --> 00:09:01,579
we're still finishing some things up. You know, it always goes that

135
00:09:01,639 --> 00:09:04,719
way. When I was doing my PhD, I

136
00:09:04,799 --> 00:09:07,961
saw a man out in the field. He was in his 80s.

137
00:09:08,001 --> 00:09:11,504
And he said, I'm just trying to finish up these last few papers. And I thought, yeah,

138
00:09:11,564 --> 00:09:15,146
that's like typical scientist, right? So I

139
00:09:15,186 --> 00:09:18,448
do still have a few little things trickling along. But most

140
00:09:18,488 --> 00:09:21,810
of my time is really focused on how we

141
00:09:21,850 --> 00:09:24,932
can improve our observing of

142
00:09:24,993 --> 00:09:28,375
our oceans, how we can use taking my skills in applied

143
00:09:28,435 --> 00:09:32,803
science, and how do we use those data to

144
00:09:32,863 --> 00:09:36,265
turn the data into information that people can

145
00:09:36,385 --> 00:09:39,747
use to understand what's happening with our oceans, what's

146
00:09:39,767 --> 00:09:43,068
happening with our climate, how are we going to deal with sea

147
00:09:43,108 --> 00:09:46,530
level rise, how are we going to deal with coastal change, what

148
00:09:46,550 --> 00:09:49,732
will that mean for our ecosystems, but also what will it mean

149
00:09:54,074 --> 00:09:59,316
And some of the, obviously you really revolutionized

150
00:09:59,336 --> 00:10:03,080
the field of tracking lasso-brained sharks and rays. Is

151
00:10:03,521 --> 00:10:06,784
it, is that because of the technology you use in that

152
00:10:07,364 --> 00:10:11,328
area, is that helped you at all in terms of in

153
00:10:11,368 --> 00:10:15,131
the position you're in now at all, or given all the technology you

154
00:10:19,675 --> 00:10:23,379
So we, a big part of IMOS is our animal tracking program.

155
00:10:23,419 --> 00:10:26,882
It's how I got involved with the marine observing system was through

156
00:10:28,103 --> 00:10:31,386
shark tracking work that I was doing up in Queensland. So we have

157
00:10:31,426 --> 00:10:34,889
a big national backbone for our animal tracking

158
00:10:35,069 --> 00:10:38,872
program. We have a centralized database

159
00:10:38,892 --> 00:10:42,055
that we host here on IMOS for researchers to

160
00:10:42,075 --> 00:10:45,538
put their data in and share their data and connect up their different

161
00:10:45,578 --> 00:10:49,621
studies around the country. So say when I was deploying receivers

162
00:10:49,661 --> 00:10:53,264
in Queensland and particularly up on the reef, we

163
00:10:53,304 --> 00:10:57,163
had colleagues who were deploying acoustic receivers in Sydney. And

164
00:10:57,203 --> 00:11:00,624
we had bull sharks that were swimming back and forth between the Great Barrier Reef

165
00:11:01,004 --> 00:11:04,345
and Sydney. And this database where we all put

166
00:11:04,425 --> 00:11:07,865
our detections meant that we could actually find those

167
00:11:07,925 --> 00:11:12,146
connections, which we wouldn't have otherwise. And that's

168
00:11:12,226 --> 00:11:15,547
one of these centralizing and connecting roles of the

169
00:11:27,090 --> 00:11:30,613
We do. We work at a national scale and have a

170
00:11:30,733 --> 00:11:34,016
range of different observing platforms that we run. So

171
00:11:34,037 --> 00:11:37,460
we have the animal tracking bit. We have wave buoys. We have

172
00:11:37,980 --> 00:11:41,383
sensorized moorings to tell us about currents and water

173
00:11:41,423 --> 00:11:45,227
temperature. We even have

174
00:11:45,427 --> 00:11:48,690
seals and turtles that we have put to work

175
00:11:48,730 --> 00:11:51,933
for us to go and collect data on where they're swimming and tell us what

176
00:11:51,953 --> 00:11:55,555
the temperature is. help define, you know, what

177
00:12:01,038 --> 00:12:04,380
Now do you, with your position, do you get, I

178
00:12:04,420 --> 00:12:07,862
know I probably already know the answer to this one, but do you get a chance to go out in the field very much

179
00:12:07,902 --> 00:12:12,645
to actually do on-the-site investigation

180
00:12:17,647 --> 00:12:21,668
I travel a lot. But it's for meetings. So

181
00:12:21,748 --> 00:12:25,530
no, I don't get out on the boat anymore. I don't get into the field anymore.

182
00:12:25,670 --> 00:12:29,553
I've had a few offers, but it just hasn't

183
00:12:29,613 --> 00:12:32,894
really worked out. My job is really to promote the

184
00:12:32,934 --> 00:12:36,236
program and make sure it's funded and the people out

185
00:12:38,898 --> 00:12:42,139
Yeah. I kind of thought that'd be the case.

186
00:12:42,159 --> 00:12:45,381
You get a really prestigious position like you have, and it's like, wow,

187
00:12:45,401 --> 00:12:48,494
that's really great, Michelle. But you never actually get to go

188
00:12:55,303 --> 00:12:59,228
To be a fellow on this type of academy

189
00:12:59,248 --> 00:13:02,953
and with the background that you have, especially with looking

190
00:13:02,993 --> 00:13:06,574
at animal distribution. The

191
00:13:06,814 --> 00:13:09,955
technology that we have now seems to be applicable not only in

192
00:13:09,975 --> 00:13:13,176
the marine systems, but on land and in freshwater as

193
00:13:13,276 --> 00:13:16,937
well. What are you hoping to be able to contribute

194
00:13:16,997 --> 00:13:20,638
with your background? Are there specific questions

195
00:13:20,678 --> 00:13:24,239
you're hoping to help answer or guide or specific

196
00:13:24,319 --> 00:13:27,660
programs? Or how does that work when you look at it from the academy level

197
00:13:31,256 --> 00:13:34,737
So I think some of that depends on what's happening at the time.

198
00:13:35,057 --> 00:13:38,558
So in Australia and probably in the US, I'm not

199
00:13:38,618 --> 00:13:41,639
that familiar with the programs there, but they put a

200
00:13:41,699 --> 00:13:45,100
lot of documents out for public comment. And groups

201
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,881
like ATSI, this academy, will write

202
00:13:49,461 --> 00:13:53,702
expert submissions as comments into

203
00:13:53,742 --> 00:13:57,383
these policies or the approaches that the government's going to take. And

204
00:13:57,423 --> 00:14:00,604
so some of what what happens is reactive, depending on

205
00:14:00,644 --> 00:14:04,305
what's happening in the government at the time. For example,

206
00:14:04,385 --> 00:14:07,846
here in Australia now, we're having a lot of conversations about

207
00:14:07,906 --> 00:14:11,367
nature-positive plans. And last – a couple

208
00:14:11,407 --> 00:14:14,967
months ago, we just had an ocean dialogue forum, and we're trying to

209
00:14:15,648 --> 00:14:19,408
– the government's trying to develop a sustainable ocean plan. So these

210
00:14:19,448 --> 00:14:22,529
are the kinds of things where a group of

211
00:14:22,589 --> 00:14:25,850
joined-up voices like the academy will make

212
00:14:25,890 --> 00:14:29,348
a submission, and it ends up being a fairly weighty

213
00:14:29,688 --> 00:14:32,850
submission because it's a group of experts who have gotten together to

214
00:14:32,890 --> 00:14:36,532
say, here's our perspective on this issue. So

215
00:14:36,852 --> 00:14:40,094
it's being able to contribute into those things and hopefully have a

216
00:14:40,174 --> 00:14:43,476
collective of scientists who lean in and

217
00:14:43,536 --> 00:14:46,637
give the government some advice on how they might approach some of

218
00:14:50,005 --> 00:14:53,508
Will you be actually dealing one-on-one or

219
00:14:53,548 --> 00:14:57,531
in a committee in front of some of the members of parliament

220
00:15:01,334 --> 00:15:05,137
As part of the academy, possibly not. I'm

221
00:15:05,177 --> 00:15:08,520
very new to the academy, so I don't know how it all works. But I

222
00:15:08,540 --> 00:15:11,923
do some of that in my day job, so to speak.

223
00:15:12,023 --> 00:15:15,545
So we've already discussed the

224
00:15:15,605 --> 00:15:19,707
fact that there are probably opportunities for me to sort of co-badge things,

225
00:15:19,888 --> 00:15:23,349
being there as an Academy member, but also being there as

226
00:15:23,409 --> 00:15:26,731
the IMOS executive director and sort of wearing two hats and saying,

227
00:15:26,771 --> 00:15:30,633
look, you know, I'm not just here as an IMOS person. I'm here as

228
00:15:34,376 --> 00:15:37,457
Right. Do you guys, as

229
00:15:37,497 --> 00:15:41,219
a member of the Academy now, do you guys have annual

230
00:15:41,359 --> 00:15:45,197
meetings that you get together, as if

231
00:15:51,939 --> 00:15:55,159
Yeah, every year there's an annual showcase where the

232
00:15:55,199 --> 00:15:58,340
fellows get together and they induct the new

233
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,800
fellows, but they also talk about some of the topical issues and

234
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,401
get working groups together to think about, you know, what kind of submissions

235
00:16:06,641 --> 00:16:09,862
the academy might develop or what kind of initiatives the

236
00:16:09,902 --> 00:16:13,170
academy should be backing. They support, you know, the

237
00:16:13,210 --> 00:16:16,552
Academy supports some early career programs and

238
00:16:16,972 --> 00:16:20,414
some mentoring, you know, they have a mentoring program. So it's a really active

239
00:16:21,035 --> 00:16:24,217
group of people who are trying to, again, you

240
00:16:24,237 --> 00:16:28,299
know, help create benefit from science and science expertise.

241
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,842
Part of this, I guess you mentioned there's about 900 fellows

242
00:16:32,862 --> 00:16:36,225
right now, currently, overall, and that's, is

243
00:16:36,805 --> 00:16:39,887
that both living and, I hate to say it,

244
00:16:39,967 --> 00:16:43,552
living and deceased? Or

245
00:16:47,214 --> 00:16:50,816
I'm assuming that that is all categories of membership,

246
00:16:54,177 --> 00:16:57,719
I only asked the question, Michelle, because I know it's a very, as

247
00:16:57,739 --> 00:17:01,461
you mentioned, it's very prestigious. There's not a lot of

248
00:17:02,081 --> 00:17:05,203
fellows there. That's what I was trying to figure out, like how many, I

249
00:17:05,223 --> 00:17:08,505
mean, it's not something everyone or many people

250
00:17:08,545 --> 00:17:11,748
get into. I know it's such an accomplishment to

251
00:17:11,808 --> 00:17:15,089
achieve, and I just try to emphasize to the audience, it's not very many

252
00:17:15,129 --> 00:17:20,070
people achieve that status that you have. So

253
00:17:20,110 --> 00:17:23,410
I just wanted to ask, I was trying to get some sense of if it's all

254
00:17:23,450 --> 00:17:26,891
time or more, but either way, there's still not

255
00:17:26,931 --> 00:17:30,772
very many people when it comes to in terms of the scientific community,

256
00:17:34,632 --> 00:17:38,253
For context, Tasmania is not a very populous

257
00:17:38,493 --> 00:17:42,219
state. But there are only 17 fellows

258
00:17:42,719 --> 00:17:46,440
in Tasmania, so I was the 17th person added

259
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,921
to the group. So yeah, it's

260
00:17:51,982 --> 00:17:55,543
Right, yeah. No, I think, yeah, and I really just wanted to emphasize

261
00:17:55,563 --> 00:17:58,964
with people that they really understand it's stuff. So with your,

262
00:17:59,484 --> 00:18:02,825
so have you been to, so I guess have you actually been to your meeting yet? Have you been

263
00:18:08,231 --> 00:18:11,854
I missed the induction meeting. It was in October. I was

264
00:18:12,995 --> 00:18:16,438
fortunately or well, I'm gonna say fortunately, I was on leave

265
00:18:16,738 --> 00:18:20,361
in Kenya having an amazing safari. Very

266
00:18:25,646 --> 00:18:28,869
And I told them I wasn't gonna cancel my holiday to

267
00:18:31,651 --> 00:18:35,327
Sounds like that was kind of a nice Nice little thing, going

268
00:18:35,347 --> 00:18:39,148
to Kenya, even though it was probably a pre-planned holiday, it was

269
00:18:39,208 --> 00:18:42,269
kind of a congratulatory thing. It was nice of

270
00:18:42,289 --> 00:18:46,511
Colin to think ahead of that for you. He must have had some insight. That's

271
00:18:53,012 --> 00:18:56,313
So as someone who studies predators, you know,

272
00:18:56,513 --> 00:18:59,694
sharks and things like that for your career, when you

273
00:18:59,734 --> 00:19:02,875
go on a safari where you have the opportunity to

274
00:19:02,895 --> 00:19:06,616
see some pretty iconic land predators, what

275
00:19:06,656 --> 00:19:09,897
do you look forward to the most? And can you just tell us a little bit

276
00:19:09,957 --> 00:19:13,759
about what you saw on the safari? I've never been, so I'm just curious.

277
00:19:15,859 --> 00:19:20,319
Oh, look, it was amazing. And we've

278
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,382
been to Africa probably half a dozen times. I

279
00:19:24,402 --> 00:19:28,684
would have to say this trip to Kenya was hands down the best trip

280
00:19:28,704 --> 00:19:32,026
we've ever had. And some of this is just about being

281
00:19:32,067 --> 00:19:35,349
in the right place at the right time. We went to

282
00:19:35,409 --> 00:19:39,591
Kenya because we wanted to see some animals we hadn't seen before. One

283
00:19:39,611 --> 00:19:44,274
of the things we wanted to see was oryx, so big pronghorn antelope.

284
00:19:46,519 --> 00:19:49,640
We're driving along the road and there was an Oryx coming up out of the

285
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,801
riverbed and so I said to the guide, oh, there's an Oryx. Can we stop and

286
00:19:52,821 --> 00:19:56,222
take a picture? Meanwhile, another male

287
00:19:56,282 --> 00:19:59,363
had come around from behind us, run right in front of the

288
00:19:59,423 --> 00:20:02,985
truck, and then the two of them just started ramming heads

289
00:20:03,105 --> 00:20:06,786
and, you know, having having a bit of a battle right

290
00:20:06,846 --> 00:20:10,127
in front of us. Five minutes, five minutes

291
00:20:10,207 --> 00:20:14,268
either way, we would have missed the whole thing. So that's

292
00:20:14,368 --> 00:20:18,019
one of the I think one of the amazing things about

293
00:20:18,279 --> 00:20:21,741
being out, you know, in that

294
00:20:21,801 --> 00:20:25,022
kind of country is you just never know what you're going to see. You never know what's going

295
00:20:25,042 --> 00:20:28,244
to happen. And then it's just animals going about their

296
00:20:28,264 --> 00:20:31,485
business. And it's just magic to get to be there

297
00:20:33,746 --> 00:20:36,848
No doubt. Yeah. I know you've been to Africa. Was

298
00:20:43,251 --> 00:20:46,451
OK. OK. Cool. I saw a few pictures on

299
00:20:46,471 --> 00:20:51,294
your social media stuff, which looked pretty awesome. And

300
00:20:51,334 --> 00:20:54,516
you guys definitely saw a few things I haven't seen. I spend a lot of time in

301
00:20:54,616 --> 00:20:57,818
Africa, so it was like, that was

302
00:20:57,858 --> 00:21:01,240
pretty fabulous. So now that you're

303
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,363
back, you're back at work now, how does it

304
00:21:04,403 --> 00:21:07,825
feel going into work with your colleagues now?

305
00:21:07,845 --> 00:21:11,127
Now that they know they have to address you

306
00:21:11,147 --> 00:21:14,883
any differently, like a fellow or, Her

307
00:21:18,885 --> 00:21:23,248
Well, I always demanded that. No. No,

308
00:21:23,388 --> 00:21:27,210
no. Business as usual. Nothing's changed.

309
00:21:31,832 --> 00:21:35,214
How many people at your office

310
00:21:35,254 --> 00:21:38,356
there in Hobart, how many people do you

311
00:21:42,851 --> 00:21:46,194
We have, I think we're at about 40 now, so we've

312
00:21:46,234 --> 00:21:49,816
got a dozen of us in the administration team,

313
00:21:49,916 --> 00:21:53,179
so the people who make sure the money comes in and the money

314
00:21:53,239 --> 00:21:56,541
goes out and the milestones are met and we do all

315
00:21:56,561 --> 00:22:00,765
of our reporting. And then we've got another probably about

316
00:22:01,525 --> 00:22:04,848
30 that are in our data team, the Australian Ocean

317
00:22:04,908 --> 00:22:08,130
Data Network. And those are the people who make sure

318
00:22:08,170 --> 00:22:11,615
that we get the data in from the systems that we're running

319
00:22:11,635 --> 00:22:15,276
and that the data gets out and made publicly, openly available

320
00:22:15,336 --> 00:22:18,737
for people, which is, it sounds very simple,

321
00:22:18,817 --> 00:22:21,938
just, you know, get the data in and put the data out, but it's a

322
00:22:21,978 --> 00:22:25,479
very big job, and so we have a great team who are really

323
00:22:25,539 --> 00:22:28,740
dedicated to making sure that people can get access to this

324
00:22:29,501 --> 00:22:33,202
Yeah. Now, I'm not super familiar

325
00:22:33,262 --> 00:22:37,003
with it, but do you have, like, satellite offices or stations throughout

326
00:22:41,479 --> 00:22:45,020
Yeah, IMOS as a program has 11 different

327
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:48,481
partner organizations in it. So we've got

328
00:22:49,561 --> 00:22:53,042
the CSIRO, the Commonwealth Scientific and Industry Research

329
00:22:53,362 --> 00:22:56,543
Organization, Australia's big science organization. We have the

330
00:22:56,563 --> 00:23:00,445
Australian Institute of Marine Science, University of Western Australia,

331
00:23:00,505 --> 00:23:03,886
the Bureau of Meteorology. So we have 11 partners who

332
00:23:04,026 --> 00:23:07,347
operate things. They're all located in various places around

333
00:23:07,367 --> 00:23:11,007
the country and they operate the infrastructure or

334
00:23:15,988 --> 00:23:19,809
Do you also work internationally,

335
00:23:19,849 --> 00:23:23,590
collaborate with people in some of the different programs

336
00:23:26,771 --> 00:23:30,031
We do that in a couple of different ways. There's a big

337
00:23:30,071 --> 00:23:33,355
program called the Global Ocean Observing System. and

338
00:23:33,395 --> 00:23:36,458
it has regional alliances around the world. In the

339
00:23:36,578 --> 00:23:39,861
U.S., it's the Integrated Ocean Observing System, which is run

340
00:23:39,881 --> 00:23:43,564
out of NOAA. Here, it's IMOS. So

341
00:23:44,244 --> 00:23:47,587
we're part of that big network, and I go to meetings with,

342
00:23:47,807 --> 00:23:51,130
you know, with those folks, and we talk about what are the global issues and

343
00:23:51,591 --> 00:23:55,334
how can we help each other and how can we leverage off of each other. But

344
00:23:55,374 --> 00:23:58,617
then more specifically in the region, we're trying to

345
00:23:58,677 --> 00:24:01,953
help sort of our neighbors here to be able

346
00:24:02,013 --> 00:24:05,214
to do more. So, for example, right now we're talking to the

347
00:24:05,254 --> 00:24:08,715
Pacific Island Group, the Regional

348
00:24:08,735 --> 00:24:12,695
Alliance of the Pacific Islands, to see how we can combine efforts

349
00:24:12,795 --> 00:24:17,916
to do more for our region, particularly in

350
00:24:17,976 --> 00:24:21,537
that area because those countries are at really high risk from

351
00:24:21,697 --> 00:24:24,878
sea level rise problems. I mean, some of

352
00:24:24,918 --> 00:24:28,198
those countries will be are already having problems with

353
00:24:28,258 --> 00:24:31,720
king tides flooding, you know, the entire island. So

354
00:24:36,262 --> 00:24:40,004
Now is this helping them out in terms of monitoring, like

355
00:24:40,064 --> 00:24:44,366
data monitoring, you know, providing buoys, providing access

356
00:24:48,028 --> 00:24:51,549
It's a mix. So some of it is helping share

357
00:24:51,609 --> 00:24:55,943
expertise on how they might do things. It's helping support

358
00:24:55,983 --> 00:24:59,185
them in, you know, how do they deliver the data? Are there things we

359
00:24:59,225 --> 00:25:02,666
can do to help them deliver data? And then there's also the, you

360
00:25:05,407 --> 00:25:08,969
So what's your, do you guys have any, what's your sort of,

361
00:25:09,729 --> 00:25:13,010
with your program now, what are your sort of your short and

362
00:25:13,050 --> 00:25:16,432
long-term objectives? Do you have any set goals right now that

363
00:25:16,492 --> 00:25:19,993
you're looking at, you're working on?

364
00:25:20,173 --> 00:25:25,347
Yeah, a couple of big things going on. One

365
00:25:25,727 --> 00:25:30,028
is, and this is a common problem, that we,

366
00:25:30,709 --> 00:25:33,930
in Australia, we have IMOS, which is

367
00:25:33,990 --> 00:25:38,231
Collecting Marine Observations, and we have our

368
00:25:38,331 --> 00:25:41,832
sort of sister programs, or our terrestrial counterparts in

369
00:25:41,872 --> 00:25:45,193
the geological group, so they're called OSCOPE, and

370
00:25:45,213 --> 00:25:48,754
then we have a terrestrial ecosystem research network,

371
00:25:49,254 --> 00:25:52,635
which are, we're all in this, funded out of the same program,

372
00:25:53,263 --> 00:25:56,905
and they work on the land and we work in the ocean, but none

373
00:25:56,945 --> 00:26:00,046
of us are working at the coast. And this is

374
00:26:00,106 --> 00:26:03,347
where we're going to have our problems with sea level rise, right?

375
00:26:03,367 --> 00:26:06,749
I mean, people's houses are already falling in the ocean.

376
00:26:06,909 --> 00:26:10,250
You know, when we have big storms, roads are being washed away.

377
00:26:10,890 --> 00:26:14,692
So we're trying to get a big coastal research infrastructure

378
00:26:14,832 --> 00:26:18,333
initiative going that connects all of us together so

379
00:26:18,353 --> 00:26:21,640
that we can understand what the ocean

380
00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:25,641
processes are and what the ocean conditions are, but then also what's

381
00:26:25,661 --> 00:26:29,142
happening with the land. So is it subsiding? You know, if

382
00:26:29,162 --> 00:26:32,323
the land is sinking and sea level is

383
00:26:32,403 --> 00:26:36,384
rising, then we have a different problem than if the land is rising, you

384
00:26:36,424 --> 00:26:39,545
know, as well as sea level rising. Because if

385
00:26:39,585 --> 00:26:42,985
it's sinking, a 10-centimeter increase in

386
00:26:43,045 --> 00:26:46,526
water level becomes a 20-centimeter increase

387
00:26:46,586 --> 00:26:50,598
in water level if the land sinks by 10 centimeters. Trying

388
00:26:50,618 --> 00:26:55,239
to connect up our communities so that we can better understand where

389
00:26:55,279 --> 00:26:58,440
things are going to change most, where things are going to change fastest, and

390
00:26:58,500 --> 00:27:01,741
how we plan for that has been a

391
00:27:02,161 --> 00:27:05,862
program we've been working on for about a year. And we're trying to hopefully

392
00:27:05,942 --> 00:27:09,623
next year get that all kicked off to, again,

393
00:27:09,703 --> 00:27:13,945
to help people who have to make decisions about where do we build roads,

394
00:27:14,065 --> 00:27:17,726
where do we build houses, where do we put, you know, where do we put buildings, what

395
00:27:17,766 --> 00:27:21,563
does this mean for our parks and our beaches and what

396
00:27:21,603 --> 00:27:25,225
does it mean for our seagrass beds and our mangroves and

397
00:27:25,325 --> 00:27:28,907
all of these ecosystems that we rely on for so

398
00:27:31,668 --> 00:27:35,370
It's kind of interesting, you're talking about all these different areas

399
00:27:35,390 --> 00:27:38,892
you're looking at and obviously they cover a wide swath of

400
00:27:38,992 --> 00:27:43,334
agencies and different interests. How do you herd

401
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,682
That's been one of the big challenges. We've spent about

402
00:27:52,742 --> 00:27:56,124
a year going around the country talking to people

403
00:27:56,164 --> 00:27:59,387
at various agencies and saying, what are your problems? What

404
00:27:59,407 --> 00:28:02,909
are your pain points? What are the things that research?

405
00:28:03,029 --> 00:28:07,132
We don't do research. We're infrastructure. So we collect

406
00:28:07,152 --> 00:28:10,514
the data and make it available. So what is it that we

407
00:28:10,574 --> 00:28:13,936
could do that would help you? And we've used that

408
00:28:14,303 --> 00:28:17,904
basically as the – those conversations as the basis for

409
00:28:20,885 --> 00:28:24,266
What's the common sort of denominator of what people need? What

410
00:28:24,286 --> 00:28:27,768
do you – are there specific trends that are

411
00:28:31,929 --> 00:28:35,470
Yeah, look, there are some really big

412
00:28:36,551 --> 00:28:39,802
consistent themes. People need

413
00:28:39,842 --> 00:28:43,043
to understand what's happening with coastal erosion. So, you know,

414
00:28:43,063 --> 00:28:46,364
what's going to happen with land and the

415
00:28:46,404 --> 00:28:49,684
places that we're building or places we've already built. They want

416
00:28:49,724 --> 00:28:53,965
to know about sea level rise. Like many

417
00:28:54,025 --> 00:28:58,246
places, almost every major metropolitan area

418
00:28:58,326 --> 00:29:02,790
in Australia is on an estuary or on a river. That's

419
00:29:02,890 --> 00:29:06,251
where we're going to have our biggest risk of inundation. You know,

420
00:29:06,451 --> 00:29:09,552
as sea level rises and it starts backing up our estuaries and our

421
00:29:09,592 --> 00:29:12,873
rivers, we're going to have more flooding than we do now.

422
00:29:12,973 --> 00:29:17,594
So how do we plan for that? What does that mean? What

423
00:29:17,674 --> 00:29:21,915
areas do we protect from a habitat perspective? So

424
00:29:21,935 --> 00:29:25,296
these are the kind of common things that we heard from people

425
00:29:25,376 --> 00:29:28,637
is, you know, understanding the water level, understanding what the

426
00:29:28,697 --> 00:29:32,736
risk is, you know, what the implications are. from

427
00:29:32,937 --> 00:29:36,480
everything from ecology through to build infrastructure through

428
00:29:36,500 --> 00:29:40,884
to human health and and even mental well-being because

429
00:29:41,124 --> 00:29:44,347
you know people's houses are in these areas people use we use the

430
00:29:44,387 --> 00:29:48,110
coast for recreation what happens if we can't do

431
00:29:48,170 --> 00:29:51,914
that anymore what happens if our beaches wash away and people can't if

432
00:29:51,954 --> 00:29:55,377
that's their thing to go walk on the beach on the weekend and

433
00:29:55,417 --> 00:29:58,640
they can't have that anymore their mental well-being will decline so

434
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,959
it's It's been amazing to see how far

435
00:30:02,019 --> 00:30:05,740
the thread of coastal change actually penetrates

436
00:30:08,041 --> 00:30:11,222
You know, you're talking a lot about sea level rise and

437
00:30:11,302 --> 00:30:14,623
even land sinking, and obviously there's technology for that.

438
00:30:15,503 --> 00:30:18,684
But how does the technology change when you're looking at

439
00:30:18,904 --> 00:30:22,386
moving from an offshore platform or

440
00:30:22,406 --> 00:30:25,707
an offshore area, as well as inshore where

441
00:30:25,727 --> 00:30:29,408
you're on land, to an area that is constantly changing

442
00:30:30,350 --> 00:30:33,814
The technology I know changes. I know back when I was doing

443
00:30:34,614 --> 00:30:38,057
GIS and looking at coastal areas,

444
00:30:38,258 --> 00:30:41,581
LiDAR was popular, but very expensive to

445
00:30:41,661 --> 00:30:45,424
fly. And you'd only be able to fly it maybe every 10 years

446
00:30:45,464 --> 00:30:48,827
to be able to get data. But changes are happening, which sounds to be very

447
00:30:48,907 --> 00:30:52,290
quickly these days. How do you measure whether,

448
00:30:53,105 --> 00:30:56,607
you know, the coastline is sinking or sea level rise is rising

449
00:30:56,687 --> 00:31:00,330
or both in an area that's, you know, fairly rough for

450
00:31:00,570 --> 00:31:04,332
a buoy system, but also, you know, always dynamic.

451
00:31:06,174 --> 00:31:10,096
This is where having this big group of people and having our sister capabilities

452
00:31:10,196 --> 00:31:13,398
really comes, brings us

453
00:31:13,558 --> 00:31:16,841
a lot of strength. So I guess the first thing I'll say

454
00:31:16,921 --> 00:31:20,303
is the ocean and the coast are all connected, right?

455
00:31:20,838 --> 00:31:23,960
For us to understand sea level rise, we have to understand the

456
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,402
conditions in the ocean, because that's

457
00:31:27,422 --> 00:31:30,584
where it's coming from. And our ocean currents are going

458
00:31:30,604 --> 00:31:34,347
to drive where we have erosion problems.

459
00:31:34,427 --> 00:31:37,649
So a lot of this comes back to understanding the

460
00:31:37,689 --> 00:31:42,051
state and trends in our ocean and how it's changing. But

461
00:31:43,052 --> 00:31:46,594
we have technology to do that, right? So we can put offshore buoy

462
00:31:46,634 --> 00:31:49,965
systems in. We're looking at now putting in

463
00:31:50,025 --> 00:31:53,487
some coastal wave buoys and putting in some coastal – even

464
00:31:53,527 --> 00:31:57,049
some estuarine moorings to try and understand what's happening with water level,

465
00:31:57,069 --> 00:32:00,731
what's happening with water quality, what's happening with the currents. But

466
00:32:00,831 --> 00:32:04,814
that is coupled with high-resolution

467
00:32:04,874 --> 00:32:08,396
land motion sensors that our terrestrial colleagues are

468
00:32:08,416 --> 00:32:11,517
putting in place to tell us. So is the land lifting up, or is it

469
00:32:11,537 --> 00:32:15,209
subsiding? And what – you know, how does that then – mesh

470
00:32:15,489 --> 00:32:19,270
with what we're understanding about the ocean conditions. And

471
00:32:19,310 --> 00:32:22,811
so it's really only by working together and

472
00:32:22,871 --> 00:32:26,612
pushing people who don't normally talk to each other to talk

473
00:32:27,372 --> 00:32:31,213
that we can really start to try and understand this. And I

474
00:32:31,233 --> 00:32:34,453
don't think we can, well, it's going to say solve these problems, but it's

475
00:32:34,533 --> 00:32:38,334
more how do we prepare and how do we mitigate? Because these

476
00:32:38,394 --> 00:32:41,535
are now problems and we need to start thinking about how we're going

477
00:32:45,010 --> 00:32:49,613
Here's an interesting thought for you, or question, is that how

478
00:32:49,653 --> 00:32:52,834
would somebody like, kind of the position you

479
00:32:52,874 --> 00:32:56,096
got there, how somebody like a young person starting out, how

480
00:32:56,116 --> 00:32:59,458
would you end up like, with any particular skills that

481
00:32:59,498 --> 00:33:03,159
you developed other than just being a solid scientist that

482
00:33:03,179 --> 00:33:06,571
you think may have helped for this position,

483
00:33:06,591 --> 00:33:09,994
your current position, or was this something you never even thought about

484
00:33:10,575 --> 00:33:13,838
when you set out in your career? Like somebody started, they said, hey,

485
00:33:13,858 --> 00:33:16,981
Michelle, what was your game plan when you started out as a

486
00:33:18,042 --> 00:33:21,385
young person? How did you wind up where you are?

487
00:33:23,547 --> 00:33:26,790
What kind of skills do you think you picked up along

488
00:33:30,418 --> 00:33:34,200
Um, yeah, this was never the plan to

489
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,301
be here. I'm not complaining, but it was never the plan. Um,

490
00:33:38,521 --> 00:33:41,862
you know, I wanted to study sharks. I wanted to be a good scientist. I

491
00:33:42,043 --> 00:33:45,324
always, I always wanted to make a difference. My

492
00:33:45,404 --> 00:33:48,605
objective as a scientist was to do things to

493
00:33:48,645 --> 00:33:52,507
provide information that could make it better for sharks. And

494
00:33:53,347 --> 00:33:57,268
that really, that sort of applied mindset

495
00:33:57,328 --> 00:34:00,592
really led me into having conversations with

496
00:34:00,632 --> 00:34:03,854
people about, okay, what do we need to know to make, you know,

497
00:34:03,894 --> 00:34:07,196
to get better management? What do we need to know to be able to, you

498
00:34:07,236 --> 00:34:11,439
know, do more and to make it better? Along

499
00:34:11,479 --> 00:34:14,701
with that, as part of that process, you know, I

500
00:34:14,741 --> 00:34:17,964
spent a lot of time talking to managers and people in

501
00:34:18,024 --> 00:34:21,346
government who have to make these decisions and trying

502
00:34:21,366 --> 00:34:24,648
to understand what kinds of information they

503
00:34:24,708 --> 00:34:28,491
needed and how they needed that information. So

504
00:34:28,531 --> 00:34:31,641
it's not, As scientists, we write papers and

505
00:34:31,681 --> 00:34:34,881
we say, you know, job done. I've done the analysis. I've

506
00:34:34,901 --> 00:34:38,262
written the paper. You know, a lot of managers and

507
00:34:38,302 --> 00:34:41,383
policy people might not have access to

508
00:34:41,403 --> 00:34:45,064
your papers. They probably don't know your papers exist. They

509
00:34:45,104 --> 00:34:48,365
don't. And they're busy. They don't have time to

510
00:34:48,405 --> 00:34:51,666
do that. So I learned along the way to go and

511
00:34:51,746 --> 00:34:54,969
talk to those people and Just tell them you

512
00:34:55,009 --> 00:34:58,370
know what we had learned and you know sit down with them and talk about

513
00:34:58,390 --> 00:35:02,272
it and find out what else they needed to know that I could go away and and

514
00:35:02,352 --> 00:35:05,654
figure out and help them with but. Take the time to

515
00:35:06,114 --> 00:35:09,536
give them the information that they need in the way

516
00:35:09,816 --> 00:35:13,598
in a way that they could use it and I think that that

517
00:35:13,678 --> 00:35:17,720
geared my brain to. You know, be solution oriented

518
00:35:17,781 --> 00:35:21,475
and think about you know the bigger picture, not just my. my

519
00:35:21,575 --> 00:35:24,877
piece that I was most particularly interested in

520
00:35:25,637 --> 00:35:28,899
really set me up for, you know, particularly this

521
00:35:28,979 --> 00:35:32,141
coastal process and being able to talk to people in government and say,

522
00:35:32,201 --> 00:35:35,403
okay, you know, clearly we have some

523
00:35:35,483 --> 00:35:38,744
issues here. What do you need? How can I help? You

524
00:35:38,764 --> 00:35:42,406
know, and have those real conversations so

525
00:35:42,446 --> 00:35:46,769
that we can craft something that will create

526
00:35:46,829 --> 00:35:49,890
solutions. And just thinking about it

527
00:35:49,930 --> 00:35:53,294
that way rather than You know, how I explain it to people

528
00:35:53,394 --> 00:35:56,699
is it shouldn't be me as a scientist pushing what

529
00:35:56,799 --> 00:36:00,343
I think they need. It should be a pull from them saying,

530
00:36:00,404 --> 00:36:03,788
this is what, this is what I need from you to help me. And

531
00:36:03,828 --> 00:36:07,353
so for me, it's a, it's a mind shift in assuming what

532
00:36:11,013 --> 00:36:14,916
Is it difficult to provide when

533
00:36:14,956 --> 00:36:18,138
you talk to a partner or you talk to a local community and say,

534
00:36:18,158 --> 00:36:21,781
hey, we need this as a way to help

535
00:36:22,321 --> 00:36:25,763
or as in need of help? Obviously, a lot

536
00:36:25,803 --> 00:36:29,806
of the stuff costs money and it costs resources

537
00:36:29,866 --> 00:36:33,369
in terms of not only equipment, but people. Sometimes

538
00:36:33,429 --> 00:36:36,971
it's available, sometimes it's not. We're in very interesting times where

539
00:36:38,092 --> 00:36:41,434
funding is not always available. And

540
00:36:41,454 --> 00:36:44,756
that's all over the world. Do you find that sometimes even

541
00:36:44,776 --> 00:36:48,338
though you come in is like, how can we help? You can't provide that

542
00:36:52,860 --> 00:36:56,122
Oh, look, there's always more that that people would like us

543
00:36:56,222 --> 00:37:02,626
to do. We're never going to have enough money. And yeah,

544
00:37:02,686 --> 00:37:05,768
so yeah, there are times when I say there are things that people ask for that are

545
00:37:05,868 --> 00:37:09,230
outside the scope of what I'm also as a program does are outside

546
00:37:09,270 --> 00:37:12,716
the scope of what you know, I as a scientist could

547
00:37:12,776 --> 00:37:16,258
provide or help with. But that's where, you

548
00:37:16,298 --> 00:37:19,561
know, I then start trying to use my network and say, OK, well,

549
00:37:19,681 --> 00:37:23,083
I can't help you, but maybe this person can or I don't know, but maybe

550
00:37:23,123 --> 00:37:26,546
that person does. And, you

551
00:37:26,586 --> 00:37:30,089
know, with this coastal program, what we've done is collected all

552
00:37:30,109 --> 00:37:34,672
of this information and then we've put together a collaborative pitch

553
00:37:35,064 --> 00:37:38,286
to government to say, OK, we've gone and we've talked to all these

554
00:37:38,326 --> 00:37:41,567
people and this is what they say they need. We as

555
00:37:41,607 --> 00:37:45,649
a collective, the terrestrial group, you know, the data people, IMOS,

556
00:37:46,150 --> 00:37:49,231
we're here. We know what they want. We're ready to do it,

557
00:37:49,291 --> 00:37:52,773
but we don't have the resources to do that. So here's

558
00:37:52,853 --> 00:37:56,295
a here's something we know the country needs. Can you help

559
00:37:56,395 --> 00:37:59,717
us? Can you provide the funding for us to be able to do this?

560
00:37:59,777 --> 00:38:03,749
And that's where we are in the process now is We've

561
00:38:04,309 --> 00:38:07,672
gone to government to ask for the support and we'll

562
00:38:07,712 --> 00:38:10,874
see, hopefully next year we'll be able to get

563
00:38:13,218 --> 00:38:16,759
Is this something, when we talk about these types of things, sea level rise,

564
00:38:16,879 --> 00:38:21,340
erosion, these are fairly large asks

565
00:38:21,540 --> 00:38:25,560
in terms of technology, as well as just, in

566
00:38:25,620 --> 00:38:29,001
certain times, it's become political, you know, in terms of looking

567
00:38:29,041 --> 00:38:32,222
at, you know, when you look at sea level rise, climate change, and so

568
00:38:32,282 --> 00:38:35,622
forth. But there are also real world questions that we need to answer

569
00:38:35,662 --> 00:38:39,442
because communities, as you mentioned, are already feeling the effects. now,

570
00:38:39,542 --> 00:38:43,244
not in 10 years from now. Do you find the

571
00:38:43,684 --> 00:38:47,105
current Australian government, or even overall, like whether, depending

572
00:38:47,605 --> 00:38:50,767
on who's in charge, do you find that there, is

573
00:38:50,787 --> 00:38:54,468
there a specific way you approach them to get away from the politicized

574
00:38:54,528 --> 00:38:57,809
part of the climate change and say, hey, look,

575
00:38:57,829 --> 00:39:02,311
these communities are in need, we could, here's our solution, and

576
00:39:02,351 --> 00:39:05,412
this is how much it's going to cost? Do you find that a

577
00:39:11,523 --> 00:39:14,945
Oh, no problem. So looking at the politics of

578
00:39:15,005 --> 00:39:18,526
climate change, and sometimes things don't get funded or they

579
00:39:18,906 --> 00:39:23,168
kind of get caught up in all of the politics. But the

580
00:39:23,288 --> 00:39:27,010
items that we've been talking about, sea level rise and sinking of coastlines,

581
00:39:27,710 --> 00:39:31,092
are a real world issue right now. Do you find when

582
00:39:31,152 --> 00:39:34,593
you speak to funders or

583
00:39:34,733 --> 00:39:39,179
speak to government agencies, do you find that these

584
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,780
types of items get bypassed because they're so important

585
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,121
to local communities or do you find that sometimes they get caught up

586
00:39:52,183 --> 00:39:55,405
Yeah, look, I think we're in

587
00:39:55,445 --> 00:39:58,886
a time where I've been talking about this, several

588
00:39:58,926 --> 00:40:02,407
of us have been talking about this for, you know, in

589
00:40:02,427 --> 00:40:05,608
the context of research infrastructure for a couple of years now.

590
00:40:07,448 --> 00:40:11,729
What's been really interesting, well, there

591
00:40:11,749 --> 00:40:15,571
have been all sorts of things happening at a national scale while

592
00:40:15,611 --> 00:40:19,152
we've been having these conversations and saying this is really important. So

593
00:40:19,192 --> 00:40:23,073
we've had a big storm in New South Wales where, you

594
00:40:23,113 --> 00:40:26,534
know, some houses on the coastline literally fell

595
00:40:26,615 --> 00:40:30,076
into the ocean. People's swimming pools were, you know, had fallen

596
00:40:30,116 --> 00:40:33,697
off the edge as the ground eroded beneath

597
00:40:33,757 --> 00:40:38,295
them. Just earlier this year, There

598
00:40:38,335 --> 00:40:42,117
was a story how in Western Australia they had their surf life-saving

599
00:40:42,177 --> 00:40:45,899
club that nine years ago they spent almost a million dollars

600
00:40:46,179 --> 00:40:49,621
upgrading and updating, had to be tore down this year because

601
00:40:50,021 --> 00:40:54,064
they had a storm surge that came in and wiped out the footings from

602
00:40:54,104 --> 00:40:57,626
the building. You know, one of the other, the

603
00:40:57,666 --> 00:41:00,927
state of Victoria has done an analysis that says in the next 10 to 15 years,

604
00:41:00,967 --> 00:41:06,456
16,000 houses will become uninhabitable. in

605
00:41:06,496 --> 00:41:09,779
the region because of sea level rise and erosion. So

606
00:41:11,001 --> 00:41:15,045
it's, you know, I don't, in that, when you start reminding

607
00:41:15,105 --> 00:41:18,488
people, and those, these things are in the newspaper, you know, almost

608
00:41:18,568 --> 00:41:22,572
weekly, that these are things that are happening, it gets really hard for

609
00:41:22,612 --> 00:41:26,035
people to politicize it and ignore it because it's,

610
00:41:26,636 --> 00:41:29,759
it's happening to people. And we have to, the government and

611
00:41:29,779 --> 00:41:32,995
the governments the local government all the way up to the

612
00:41:33,355 --> 00:41:36,658
federal government have to start thinking about, what do we do

613
00:41:36,758 --> 00:41:40,342
as a society? How are we going to deal with this? Because it's

614
00:41:40,382 --> 00:41:44,265
not going away. So I think if

615
00:41:44,666 --> 00:41:47,808
we were having this conversation 10 years ago, it would be

616
00:41:47,848 --> 00:41:51,292
a very different conversation. But the fact that the effects

617
00:41:51,372 --> 00:41:54,655
of this are here changes the tone

618
00:41:56,717 --> 00:42:00,169
For sure. Michelle, I think it's been a really great having

619
00:42:00,189 --> 00:42:03,391
you back on the show here and talk about your fabulous award and

620
00:42:03,871 --> 00:42:07,434
catching up with you with all the work you've been doing and everything.

621
00:42:07,514 --> 00:42:11,376
And we're really grateful you had time to come back. And we

622
00:42:11,396 --> 00:42:14,579
hope you come back again sometime, maybe make it a little less than

623
00:42:14,619 --> 00:42:19,182
three years and catch

624
00:42:19,202 --> 00:42:22,484
up with what you're doing that time. And maybe you'll even

625
00:42:23,004 --> 00:42:26,266
have a little more shark stuff going on, then somehow you'll work that

626
00:42:26,306 --> 00:42:30,648
into your program. doing some sharky stuff. But anyway,

627
00:42:30,668 --> 00:42:33,990
thanks so much for coming on the coming on the program again. It's really nice having

628
00:42:36,331 --> 00:42:40,073
Yeah, no problem. Sorry, not much shark talk, but hopefully something

629
00:42:43,994 --> 00:42:47,116
Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Thank you, Michelle, for

630
00:42:47,156 --> 00:42:50,257
joining us here on the beyond jaws podcast. It was great to

631
00:42:50,317 --> 00:42:53,819
be able to find out, Dave, what a fellow does

632
00:42:53,859 --> 00:42:57,001
in this regard, because for me, when I grew up in this

633
00:42:57,061 --> 00:43:00,703
business, even up until this interview, I always thought a fellowship was

634
00:43:00,743 --> 00:43:03,905
you get like a, almost like a scholarship, like you get paid to do

635
00:43:03,945 --> 00:43:07,568
a specific amount of work for an organization or an institute,

636
00:43:07,628 --> 00:43:11,010
even an academy. And then once you're done that it's you're,

637
00:43:11,150 --> 00:43:14,392
you're, you're done. Like once the funding's done, you're, you're out. But this

638
00:43:14,432 --> 00:43:17,715
was a bit of a different fellow, you know, where you have more,

639
00:43:17,735 --> 00:43:21,517
I feel like it's more of a legacy thing, right? It's more having an

640
00:43:21,677 --> 00:43:25,333
imprint on on science in general, and

641
00:43:25,713 --> 00:43:29,015
more, I guess, ecology in this respect, but really science in general,

642
00:43:29,075 --> 00:43:32,376
not just on sharks, not just on the marine realm, but all

643
00:43:32,436 --> 00:43:35,658
realms, and being able to interact with a lot

644
00:43:35,678 --> 00:43:39,039
of different scientists. This is something that's new

645
00:43:39,119 --> 00:43:42,541
to me. Is this new to you, or is this something

646
00:43:45,626 --> 00:43:49,409
You know, I'm aware of these different things, like the American

647
00:43:49,429 --> 00:43:52,852
Association of Science Fellows. I may not have the right name correct,

648
00:43:52,872 --> 00:43:56,115
but I'm aware of these things, but I really did not know much

649
00:43:56,175 --> 00:43:59,638
about them until we talked, until we had this interview with Michelle.

650
00:43:59,658 --> 00:44:02,900
I did not know much about them. I know they're very prestigious. I know,

651
00:44:03,260 --> 00:44:06,743
you know, coming from a marine science background, certainly if you're

652
00:44:06,763 --> 00:44:10,706
in a niche area like sharks, you know, people almost never have any,

653
00:44:11,467 --> 00:44:14,806
know anything about what you're doing. outside our community, within

654
00:44:14,846 --> 00:44:18,227
our communities, you know, everybody's pretty enthusiastic, but

655
00:44:18,287 --> 00:44:22,690
outside of the community, it's not that well known. And so for someone like Michelle to

656
00:44:22,750 --> 00:44:26,051
be elevated to such a prestigious level, it

657
00:44:26,131 --> 00:44:29,453
speaks a lot to her as a person, as a scientist, a

658
00:44:29,493 --> 00:44:32,774
researcher, and certainly the accomplishments she's

659
00:44:32,814 --> 00:44:36,096
had throughout her career, which are many. This is really kind

660
00:44:36,116 --> 00:44:39,517
of just a nice sort of icing on the cake,

661
00:44:39,718 --> 00:44:44,079
so to speak, with this nomination

662
00:44:44,279 --> 00:44:48,102
and acceptance as a fellow in the Australian Academy

663
00:44:48,382 --> 00:44:51,405
of Sciences really so it's uh yeah I didn't know a

664
00:44:51,465 --> 00:44:54,628
lot about it so it's kind of nice to hear a little bit about it other than I

665
00:44:54,668 --> 00:44:57,950
know it's very prestigious so it's uh quite it was quite

666
00:44:57,970 --> 00:45:01,093
an accomplishment and if there's anybody that deserves it I'd have to

667
00:45:01,113 --> 00:45:04,556
say it'd have to be Michelle she definitely has been a a pioneer

668
00:45:06,677 --> 00:45:09,999
It's a bit of like being inducted into a Hall of Fame, but there's more

669
00:45:10,039 --> 00:45:13,100
work to be done. You're not just inducted and

670
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:18,882
you get a yellow jacket. You're inducted and you do more work. Obviously,

671
00:45:18,922 --> 00:45:22,244
she was very happy with what she was able

672
00:45:22,284 --> 00:45:26,385
to accomplish. And to be able to have that influence later

673
00:45:26,625 --> 00:45:29,787
on, I think really works towards the

674
00:45:29,827 --> 00:45:33,108
legacy that is Michelle's career. And I think that's really

675
00:45:33,728 --> 00:45:37,371
great to see a shark scientist in there, especially one

676
00:45:37,391 --> 00:45:40,553
of her stature. And I think it's great. I think also just with the

677
00:45:40,613 --> 00:45:44,015
work that she's been able to do, or working on looking

678
00:45:44,175 --> 00:45:47,538
at coastal monitoring, working with a lot

679
00:45:47,638 --> 00:45:51,020
of different observation systems that are already out

680
00:45:51,060 --> 00:45:54,764
there and seeing how they can interact and how they can help

681
00:45:54,804 --> 00:45:58,326
each other out. It's really interesting work that's,

682
00:45:58,806 --> 00:46:02,347
it's not just for publications, it's for actual,

683
00:46:02,607 --> 00:46:06,329
you know, people who are actually having problems with their homes being flooded

684
00:46:06,549 --> 00:46:10,091
and, you know, very applicable to today's world,

685
00:46:10,771 --> 00:46:14,253
which we don't hear a lot about when we talk about shark scientists or

686
00:46:14,273 --> 00:46:17,714
scientists and marine scientists in general. There's, this is going to be something

687
00:46:17,754 --> 00:46:20,896
I feel that's going to be a common theme over the next couple of

688
00:46:21,780 --> 00:46:25,543
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think the thing, too, is she's worked

689
00:46:25,563 --> 00:46:28,726
her way through accomplishments to

690
00:46:28,786 --> 00:46:32,369
get to where she's at. Now she has a chance to interact with a broad array

691
00:46:32,409 --> 00:46:36,232
of people, scientists, and even work with policy people

692
00:46:36,292 --> 00:46:40,656
that she's reached at a level of her career that her

693
00:46:40,756 --> 00:46:44,004
input and her experience and knowledge I think she's hoped will have

694
00:46:44,024 --> 00:46:48,226
an impact and be able to influence possibly future policies in

695
00:46:48,346 --> 00:46:51,827
Australia and what happens in different areas in the future.

696
00:46:52,488 --> 00:46:55,889
And that's, again, that's all been accomplishments to take as a career.

697
00:46:56,269 --> 00:46:59,630
It's basically having a long career like she's had

698
00:47:00,070 --> 00:47:03,172
to get to that point where you have that experience, that knowledge, and

699
00:47:03,212 --> 00:47:06,433
above all, you have that respect from your colleagues. And

700
00:47:06,473 --> 00:47:09,694
I think that's really, she's gotten to a place now where she

701
00:47:09,714 --> 00:47:13,065
can, in a way, even though she's not doing sharks, kind

702
00:47:13,085 --> 00:47:16,833
of when she talked a little bit about her background and what her goals were as

703
00:47:16,873 --> 00:47:20,841
a shark scientist, even though she's not doing sharks, that her goals overall

704
00:47:21,282 --> 00:47:24,648
are still very applicable in her position, which I think speaks a lot to

705
00:47:25,267 --> 00:47:28,769
Yes. A lot to her and a lot to her, just her early

706
00:47:31,111 --> 00:47:34,493
It was definitely a great episode. It was fun to catch up with

707
00:47:34,553 --> 00:47:38,536
Michelle and all she's been able to accomplish over the last three years. As

708
00:47:38,556 --> 00:47:41,998
you mentioned at the end, hopefully this won't be another three years before we catch

709
00:47:42,038 --> 00:47:46,040
up with her again on this podcast. But we'll put on the links

710
00:47:46,481 --> 00:47:49,663
to get in touch with her and how to get in touch with her and how to get in touch with the work

711
00:47:49,683 --> 00:47:52,825
that she's been able to do. But Dave, if people want to get in touch with you,

712
00:47:54,108 --> 00:47:58,471
It's Lost Shark Guy on Instagram and Lost

713
00:47:58,551 --> 00:48:02,253
Sharks on Facebook and Lost Sharks on X. And

714
00:48:02,313 --> 00:48:05,528
LinkedIn, it's Dave Ebert. Any

715
00:48:05,548 --> 00:48:08,650
of those ways, Instagram's probably the best, but yeah, any

716
00:48:09,991 --> 00:48:13,493
Awesome. And of course, we have our YouTube channel, Beyond Jaws. We'll

717
00:48:13,513 --> 00:48:16,855
put the link into the show notes. And on Instagram, we

718
00:48:16,915 --> 00:48:20,037
are beyondjawspod. Feel free to connect with us

719
00:48:20,117 --> 00:48:23,258
if you have guest suggestions, or if you have topics you'd like

720
00:48:23,298 --> 00:48:26,380
to discuss, or you'd like us to discuss, or if you just

721
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,622
want to say, hey, you know what? We love your show. We're always looking forward to

722
00:48:29,642 --> 00:48:32,824
it. We love compliments, right, Dave? We love that. Absolutely. But thank

723
00:48:32,844 --> 00:48:36,225
you very much to Michelle. And thank you, Dave,

724
00:48:36,826 --> 00:48:40,327
of course. And thank you to the listener. Our

725
00:48:40,387 --> 00:48:44,129
audience is what allows us to continue to drive episodes

726
00:48:44,169 --> 00:48:47,510
like this and bring you the latest and greatest in shark science and

727
00:48:47,550 --> 00:48:50,712
conservation. So from Dave and I, thank you so much for joining us

728
00:48:50,892 --> 00:48:54,093
on this episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Have a great day. We'll