From Australia to Timor-Leste: A Journey to Rediscover Lost Shark Species

1
00:00:00,268 --> 00:00:03,631
Ladies and gentlemen and fellow shark scientists and

2
00:00:03,691 --> 00:00:07,253
enthusiasts and conservationists, we have a very special episode today.

3
00:00:07,613 --> 00:00:10,775
Normally, we have a guest on. Today, we do have

4
00:00:10,795 --> 00:00:13,858
a guest on, but he's actually our co-host. Dr. David Ebert is going to

5
00:00:13,878 --> 00:00:17,300
be talking about his latest trip for searching

6
00:00:17,580 --> 00:00:21,323
for lost sharks. And this is a doozy, because

7
00:00:21,483 --> 00:00:24,525
he may have found one. But you're going to have to listen to the rest of

8
00:00:24,545 --> 00:00:28,375
the episode to find out. So let's start the show. Hey

9
00:00:28,435 --> 00:00:31,737
everybody, welcome back to another episode of the

10
00:00:31,777 --> 00:00:35,059
Beyond Jaws podcast. I am today, I'm normally

11
00:00:35,079 --> 00:00:38,241
your co-host, but today I am your host because our

12
00:00:38,341 --> 00:00:41,863
guest, Dr. David Ebert is normally my other co-host

13
00:00:42,383 --> 00:00:45,745
and he's the guy you've been listening to ask questions to other

14
00:00:45,826 --> 00:00:49,348
guests and today he is going to be our guest because I

15
00:00:50,008 --> 00:00:53,570
asked him to come on the podcast to talk about his trip his

16
00:00:53,690 --> 00:00:57,353
latest trip to Australia, Southeast

17
00:00:57,493 --> 00:01:00,935
Asia, to look for more lost sharks.

18
00:01:01,295 --> 00:01:04,558
And the question when we always look

19
00:01:04,578 --> 00:01:07,880
at these types of trips is,

20
00:01:08,620 --> 00:01:11,882
are we gonna find sharks? What are the odds

21
00:01:11,902 --> 00:01:15,185
that we're gonna find sharks? So we're gonna find that out all today. It's gonna be

22
00:01:15,205 --> 00:01:18,747
a blast. Dave, are you ready

23
00:01:23,350 --> 00:01:26,532
Absolutely, Andrew. I'm so happy to

24
00:01:27,212 --> 00:01:30,593
be here on this podcast with you. Such

25
00:01:32,254 --> 00:01:35,539
I'm actually just glad to be back. made it back out

26
00:01:35,579 --> 00:01:38,782
of the places I just went to, which we'll get

27
00:01:38,822 --> 00:01:42,585
into some of the other adventure parts of the story during

28
00:01:42,625 --> 00:01:46,748
this special bonus episode. Absolutely. Yeah.

29
00:01:46,808 --> 00:01:50,311
Thanks for having me on as your guest this week. You

30
00:01:50,471 --> 00:01:53,894
Special guest. Yeah. Always a pleasure to have you on. You're welcome

31
00:01:59,765 --> 00:02:02,907
Look this has been you know, it's it's it's always cool because last year

32
00:02:02,927 --> 00:02:06,510
you went away to Ecuador and Peru this year you

33
00:02:06,570 --> 00:02:10,093
went to Northern Australia you went to East

34
00:02:10,173 --> 00:02:14,897
Timor you went to Indonesia

35
00:02:14,917 --> 00:02:18,479
she went to Jakarta and Bali I spent a little time in Singapore and

36
00:02:18,519 --> 00:02:21,802
then back to to Darwin Australia We're gonna talk all about

37
00:02:21,842 --> 00:02:25,305
those trips you know what your goals were but

38
00:02:25,345 --> 00:02:29,288
also like the prep for these types of trips because this is a lot of logistics a

39
00:02:29,328 --> 00:02:33,050
lot of countries that you don't travel to on a regular basis

40
00:02:34,371 --> 00:02:37,454
and so I want to just kind of chat you know and and a lot of

41
00:02:37,514 --> 00:02:41,156
collaborations there's a lot of people that you went with different people and

42
00:02:41,176 --> 00:02:44,819
of course shout out to Denise who is your videographer and

43
00:02:44,859 --> 00:02:48,361
we were going to be coming out with a lot of episodes and a lot of content

44
00:02:48,402 --> 00:02:51,743
coming out Video wise on on some

45
00:02:51,883 --> 00:02:55,305
some YouTube channels. We'll let you know when that comes out because we got one coming out quite

46
00:02:55,365 --> 00:02:59,166
soon if it's not already out by the time we put this up, but

47
00:03:00,107 --> 00:03:04,229
This is this is gonna be a lot of fun. So I'm looking forward to this. So Dave Let's

48
00:03:04,249 --> 00:03:07,550
just talk about what the goal of the trip was like where you

49
00:03:09,791 --> 00:03:13,933
Yeah well first of all, I want to say that this is a Project

50
00:03:13,953 --> 00:03:17,234
that's being funded by the Save Our Seas Foundation through

51
00:03:17,254 --> 00:03:20,371
one of their Keystone grants And I can't thank the

52
00:03:20,411 --> 00:03:23,852
Save Our Seas Foundation enough, because they've been really supportive of

53
00:03:23,892 --> 00:03:27,453
the Lost Sharks Program and Lost Sharks Project.

54
00:03:27,993 --> 00:03:31,274
And it's just really helped fill

55
00:03:31,294 --> 00:03:34,635
a niche here to try to get out and find these lost species that

56
00:03:34,655 --> 00:03:38,216
we've been looking for. And last year, as you know, I went to Ecuador and Peru.

57
00:03:38,936 --> 00:03:42,837
And we'll have more coming out of that as part of a documentary series. As

58
00:03:42,897 --> 00:03:49,209
you mentioned, we'll elaborate more in the next few weeks. But

59
00:03:49,269 --> 00:03:53,412
anyway, this was year two of the project, and this year we went to Northern

60
00:03:53,492 --> 00:03:57,255
Australia, the Northern Territories, Darwin, and

61
00:03:57,355 --> 00:04:00,757
met up with a good friend of mine, a colleague, Dr.

62
00:04:00,797 --> 00:04:03,939
Peter Kind, and a number of students from

63
00:04:03,979 --> 00:04:07,161
his lab. And then from there we went on to East

64
00:04:07,181 --> 00:04:10,266
Timor, which is also known as Timor-Leste. It's actually one

65
00:04:10,286 --> 00:04:13,929
of the newest countries in the world, which I'll talk about a little more in a moment. And

66
00:04:13,949 --> 00:04:17,592
then we did a swing all the way through Indonesia, starting

67
00:04:17,632 --> 00:04:20,774
in Bali. Then we went on to Jakarta. Then we wound up

68
00:04:20,794 --> 00:04:24,617
in the Rio Islands out in far Western Indonesia.

69
00:04:25,298 --> 00:04:28,921
And then at the end of the trip, we went and had a day or two in Singapore

70
00:04:28,941 --> 00:04:32,183
at the end, which was basically just kind of the jump off point for

71
00:04:32,203 --> 00:04:35,986
the end of the trip. And then we came back to Darwin and spent

72
00:04:36,006 --> 00:04:39,160
a few days there wrapping up some stuff. But you

73
00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,482
talk about your preparation for something like this. Yeah. Holy

74
00:04:45,642 --> 00:04:48,923
Well, here, let me just start. Let me just let me just start with this, because I

75
00:04:48,963 --> 00:04:52,425
mean, the first I've got a lot of questions around around the prep,

76
00:04:52,825 --> 00:04:56,796
but like the first and foremost is you want to make sure that

77
00:04:56,816 --> 00:05:00,098
there are there are specific things you are going to do in each

78
00:05:00,138 --> 00:05:03,461
and every place. Right. So let's let's just name

79
00:05:03,501 --> 00:05:07,223
them off and kind of just talk about what you what

80
00:05:07,243 --> 00:05:10,746
the purpose of in that and like briefly, you don't have to go into too

81
00:05:12,087 --> 00:05:15,329
Right. Now, the basic summary of

82
00:05:15,349 --> 00:05:18,551
the project is to highlight these lost sharks, as I call

83
00:05:18,571 --> 00:05:21,773
them, these species that may be disappearing with no one really

84
00:05:21,793 --> 00:05:25,431
paying much attention to because, you know, Things like white sharks, tiger sharks,

85
00:05:25,851 --> 00:05:29,252
they get a lot of publicity and there's actually

86
00:05:29,272 --> 00:05:33,953
a lot of protections for them. But the species I'm looking for, and again,

87
00:05:33,973 --> 00:05:37,554
I work a lot with collaborations, it's huge. I couldn't do what

88
00:05:37,574 --> 00:05:40,695
I do without the collaborations I have. And a lot of it's just come

89
00:05:40,735 --> 00:05:44,977
from setting up a network over the last 40 years of my career. And

90
00:05:45,437 --> 00:05:48,938
so it's really, the overall goal is

91
00:05:48,958 --> 00:05:52,199
to highlight these species before they disappear, before they

92
00:05:52,219 --> 00:05:55,545
go extinct. And I'll talk about really

93
00:05:55,565 --> 00:05:58,807
the first species that is part of this thing I'll get

94
00:05:58,847 --> 00:06:02,350
into in a moment. There is one species that we're looking for that actually has

95
00:06:02,370 --> 00:06:05,572
been officially declared extinct. And I'll talk about that a little

96
00:06:05,592 --> 00:06:08,935
more in a moment. But you asked about the prep into

97
00:06:08,975 --> 00:06:12,518
something like this. And keep in mind, this basically covered

98
00:06:12,578 --> 00:06:16,441
five countries over the course of a month, basically.

99
00:06:16,521 --> 00:06:20,044
I had like 10 flights. I covered 12 time

100
00:06:20,144 --> 00:06:24,591
zones. And

101
00:06:24,891 --> 00:06:29,034
conditions were varied from fairly nice

102
00:06:29,094 --> 00:06:32,697
in Darwin to kind of the outback basically in

103
00:06:33,938 --> 00:06:37,400
A little rough. A little rough. Rough in terms of like environment, right?

104
00:06:38,381 --> 00:06:41,984
I mean, you're talking about some of the places, there's really not any

105
00:06:42,044 --> 00:06:46,327
roads to speak of. You just kind of have to go with what's there. And

106
00:06:46,407 --> 00:06:50,880
so then you don't have a lot of really great facilities. But

107
00:06:50,940 --> 00:06:54,222
anyway, so I had to as far as prep, you know, I had to basically be a travel agent

108
00:06:54,282 --> 00:06:57,464
to book all the these flights, because I had a team of

109
00:06:57,544 --> 00:07:00,886
people going, which are a lot mostly graduate students

110
00:07:00,906 --> 00:07:04,247
from Pete Kine's lab. And so I had different students

111
00:07:04,347 --> 00:07:07,809
on different parts of the project. And they were on this project, because

112
00:07:07,889 --> 00:07:11,952
each of them is working in a different, different part of the cut

113
00:07:17,495 --> 00:07:21,158
Yeah, exactly. They all had they all knew the they all knew the the lay

114
00:07:21,178 --> 00:07:24,280
of the land, so to speak, when we go there. So that was important, too. So

115
00:07:24,300 --> 00:07:27,542
I had to book flights not just for myself, but for all the team. Then

116
00:07:27,562 --> 00:07:31,864
I had, of course, Denise Sotomayor was filming

117
00:07:31,884 --> 00:07:35,727
the whole journey as part of the project. And

118
00:07:36,507 --> 00:07:39,750
so that was a whole thing in itself. I kind of felt like a travel agent just getting that

119
00:07:39,790 --> 00:07:43,392
part together. Then the time goes into researching the

120
00:07:43,412 --> 00:07:46,494
whole project, like what we're going. OK, we're going to this location to do

121
00:07:46,534 --> 00:07:49,643
this. We're going to this location to do that. And as I was researching, a

122
00:07:49,683 --> 00:07:52,924
few locations came up that I wasn't anticipating. And

123
00:07:52,944 --> 00:07:56,686
probably the biggest one that came up in

124
00:07:56,706 --> 00:08:00,288
the whole project was Timor-Leste, East Timor, because

125
00:08:00,328 --> 00:08:04,710
I was not originally had that on my radar until

126
00:08:05,250 --> 00:08:10,692
a colleague of mine who I had published a paper with recently, I

127
00:08:10,752 --> 00:08:13,973
found out she's now, she was based in Palau, but

128
00:08:14,013 --> 00:08:18,135
now she's with World Fish, and she's based in Timor-Leste.

129
00:08:18,595 --> 00:08:22,616
And she coincidentally started sending me some photos

130
00:08:22,676 --> 00:08:26,437
of some sharks and rays, because she's not a shark person herself. And

131
00:08:26,577 --> 00:08:30,398
so she started sending me stuff, asking about these things. And

132
00:08:30,498 --> 00:08:34,059
so she wanted, anyway, so I

133
00:08:34,079 --> 00:08:37,361
was identifying, and I kind of said, oh, what are you doing in Timor-Leste? She says, oh, I

134
00:08:37,401 --> 00:08:41,420
live here now. I work here. And so that got my attention because nobody's

135
00:08:41,460 --> 00:08:44,622
done any research that I'm aware of

136
00:08:44,702 --> 00:08:47,884
on sharks and rays in Timor-Leste. So I, so

137
00:08:47,924 --> 00:08:51,647
I worked in that into the whole project and

138
00:08:51,667 --> 00:08:55,210
that turned out to be just a phenomenal, a phenomenal story

139
00:08:55,230 --> 00:08:58,432
in itself. And I'll, I'll get into talk a little bit about today, but

140
00:08:58,452 --> 00:09:02,575
I'll get into, we'll have a future episode where I'll get into this a lot more detail.

141
00:09:02,635 --> 00:09:05,917
Cause this was a whole, a whole issue. And if you know anything about

142
00:09:05,937 --> 00:09:09,013
East Timor. I'm sure a lot of people out there have to go look at a

143
00:09:09,073 --> 00:09:12,594
map to figure out where it is, but it's just, yeah, it's just,

144
00:09:12,954 --> 00:09:16,795
it's just like about an hour, an hour and a half flight from Darwin, Australia, which

145
00:09:16,855 --> 00:09:20,076
is up in the far Northern part. And, um, they, they

146
00:09:20,116 --> 00:09:24,437
had a long, I'll just give the short story, but they went through a brutal war

147
00:09:29,574 --> 00:09:32,657
And like recently, though, you recently the reason it was as

148
00:09:32,737 --> 00:09:35,979
if it was like 60 years ago. No, no. The war in the 1990s,

149
00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,743
The war, the war, the war just ended in 2002. Yeah. And then they

150
00:09:40,783 --> 00:09:44,046
had then they went through some civil unrest within the country, kind of different

151
00:09:44,106 --> 00:09:47,529
parties jockeying for power and stuff, trying to figure things out.

152
00:09:48,530 --> 00:09:52,293
And so they've had a very challenging recent history.

153
00:09:52,853 --> 00:09:57,137
They say they only became a country in, you know, 2002, 2003. They

154
00:09:57,177 --> 00:10:00,495
actually officially became a country. that it was recognized by

155
00:10:00,536 --> 00:10:03,997
the world. And so, the thing

156
00:10:04,037 --> 00:10:07,278
is, unfortunately, when the Indonesians left, they

157
00:10:07,338 --> 00:10:10,799
pretty much destroyed the country. And so it's still undergoing a

158
00:10:10,859 --> 00:10:14,160
lot of rehabilitation, rebuilding. There's a lot of

159
00:10:14,681 --> 00:10:17,882
foreign aid you see in there. When I was just

160
00:10:17,942 --> 00:10:21,183
there, you see a lot of foreign aid trying to rebuild it. But you

161
00:10:21,203 --> 00:10:24,644
get outside the capital of Dili, and I covered the whole country.

162
00:10:24,664 --> 00:10:28,448
I mean, we went everywhere. And it's not a big country. but it would take hours

163
00:10:28,668 --> 00:10:31,789
to get anywhere because the roads are just so bad. And

164
00:10:31,809 --> 00:10:34,949
a lot of places you'd have to drive along creek beds and stuff. And

165
00:10:35,049 --> 00:10:38,150
again, I was there in the dry season, wet season, you can't get

166
00:10:38,190 --> 00:10:41,830
around very well in a lot of areas just because of the flooding

167
00:10:42,351 --> 00:10:45,511
that takes place there. And you also have interesting thing I'll

168
00:10:45,531 --> 00:10:48,712
talk a little more about is you have crocodiles are

169
00:10:48,752 --> 00:10:52,012
all over the place and you can't get in and out of some towns because there's

170
00:10:56,684 --> 00:10:59,867
Oh yeah, and that was a whole other thing is that we

171
00:10:59,907 --> 00:11:03,049
dealt with, and I actually dealt with this pretty much the whole trip from when we

172
00:11:03,069 --> 00:11:06,992
started off in northern Australia, we had crocodiles,

173
00:11:07,513 --> 00:11:10,835
we were out in the boat, we went out, oh let's back up and start off, we started off

174
00:11:11,656 --> 00:11:15,379
in northern Australia going out fishing for river sharks, which

175
00:11:15,839 --> 00:11:19,222
was a highlight for me, I'd always wanted to see

176
00:11:19,262 --> 00:11:22,564
these things in the wild, and I come from, this

177
00:11:22,785 --> 00:11:26,539
was a species that was thought extinct, for over the past

178
00:11:26,579 --> 00:11:30,803
hundred years. And it was only about 15 years ago, Pete Kind and

179
00:11:30,843 --> 00:11:34,426
some others got onto the fact that there was kind of a stronghold of

180
00:11:34,466 --> 00:11:38,309
these things in Northern Australia. And they've pretty much disappeared everywhere

181
00:11:38,349 --> 00:11:41,692
else. So Pete's been researching these things there.

182
00:11:42,373 --> 00:11:45,556
And we'll have him talk a little more detail in a future episode. But

183
00:11:46,877 --> 00:11:50,180
you go up there to fish for these things. We go up there and we're tagging them, tagging and

184
00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,568
releasing them with Pete and Julia Constance. And

185
00:11:54,588 --> 00:11:57,689
there's so many crocodiles around like you can't even like sit at

186
00:11:57,729 --> 00:12:01,070
the edge of the boat. You got to kind of stay in the middle of the boat because crocs literally

187
00:12:01,110 --> 00:12:05,070
will lunge out and take you off the boat. And you

188
00:12:05,090 --> 00:12:08,351
see a lot and you see crocodiles from things that are maybe four or five

189
00:12:08,411 --> 00:12:11,732
feet to 15 feet. Uh, at least one

190
00:12:11,772 --> 00:12:14,853
of them was probably 17, 18 feet. And I'll tell you

191
00:12:14,893 --> 00:12:18,074
after seeing a lot of 15 footers, you see one is 18 feet. You're like,

192
00:12:18,254 --> 00:12:21,574
Holy moly. That's a, that's a big fucking croc.

193
00:12:22,515 --> 00:12:25,906
And they're just, and they're just kind of sitting on those A lot of them are swimming across

194
00:12:25,946 --> 00:12:29,998
the river, they're sitting on the banks, they look like they're not doing anything. Believe

195
00:12:33,381 --> 00:12:36,543
So this is an interesting part, because we talk about the

196
00:12:36,603 --> 00:12:39,825
prep of this, looking at what kind of sharks you're going

197
00:12:39,845 --> 00:12:43,227
to look for for each place, right? And here's the thing

198
00:12:43,247 --> 00:12:46,510
that I have. These are places where a lot of times you haven't been.

199
00:12:47,911 --> 00:12:51,253
And some of them are a little rougher in

200
00:12:51,293 --> 00:12:54,815
terms of conditions than others. You

201
00:12:54,855 --> 00:12:57,977
have graduate students who've done work in there, so they have a little bit more of

202
00:12:57,997 --> 00:13:01,836
the lay of the land. But, you know, you're doing

203
00:13:01,856 --> 00:13:05,057
this, you know, associated with Save Our

204
00:13:05,117 --> 00:13:08,538
Seas, but a lot of it's just, it's you and your graduate students and

205
00:13:08,738 --> 00:13:12,920
things. How do you look out for safety when

206
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,181
you plan these things? Because it's almost like you have

207
00:13:18,762 --> 00:13:21,823
Oh, yeah. I mean, I can only prepare so much of my, and a part of it is like looking at

208
00:13:21,843 --> 00:13:25,084
the species we might encounter, you know, kind of learning, knowing

209
00:13:25,104 --> 00:13:28,809
what the red list assessments are in these things and what we might find. And

210
00:13:28,829 --> 00:13:32,212
of course, the river sharks was a high priority on this whole thing.

211
00:13:33,553 --> 00:13:36,615
Timor-Leste was just a complete wide open thing. Now, when you're working in

212
00:13:36,675 --> 00:13:39,838
Australia, particularly through the university, you have

213
00:13:39,858 --> 00:13:42,960
a whole protocol you have to go through. Gotcha. And so there's a

214
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,263
whole thing like, you got to do this, you got to do that, you got to be here, you got to stay here.

215
00:13:47,024 --> 00:13:50,466
And crocodiles are just one thing. There's some other stuff too.

216
00:13:50,727 --> 00:13:53,944
And keep in mind, We're working on sharks and sharks are kind of like low

217
00:13:53,984 --> 00:13:58,147
in the priority. What I'm really worried about, it's more of the other unknown

218
00:13:58,447 --> 00:14:01,690
safeties, crocodiles. And if you remember last year, I think I talked a

219
00:14:01,710 --> 00:14:04,813
little bit about last year's thing, a whole different set of things in

220
00:14:04,873 --> 00:14:08,776
Ecuador, particularly we had a lot of civil unrest when

221
00:14:09,316 --> 00:14:12,579
Yeah, because there was like a political part, there was a political election going

222
00:14:12,739 --> 00:14:16,362
There was an election going on and there were people being assassinated, political

223
00:14:16,422 --> 00:14:19,501
people, candidates. Drug cartels, you

224
00:14:19,561 --> 00:14:22,662
know, we got chased out of several fish markets. We were just told to leave or

225
00:14:22,682 --> 00:14:26,403
die. And so I'm just kind of contrasting

226
00:14:26,423 --> 00:14:31,265
last year to this year where we're more worried about some of the wildlife with

227
00:14:32,166 --> 00:14:35,767
So it was less like worrying about people and worrying about sort

228
00:14:35,807 --> 00:14:39,029
of some of the major events that were going on and

229
00:14:39,209 --> 00:14:42,410
worrying more about nature and just being safe and being aware of

230
00:14:44,831 --> 00:14:48,549
Right, yeah. And like I said, in Australia you have They got protocols you

231
00:14:48,569 --> 00:14:52,030
have to follow. And, you know, Pete went over all those things with us. And

232
00:14:52,070 --> 00:14:55,252
that, and that's when I go to countries like that, you kind of

233
00:14:55,272 --> 00:14:58,354
like got a set of protocols and you're aware of that. Now, when

234
00:14:58,374 --> 00:15:01,695
you go to Timor Leste, East Timor, that's a different

235
00:15:01,755 --> 00:15:05,017
story because there's really nothing there.

236
00:15:05,437 --> 00:15:09,179
You just have some of the people, you know, again, you're, I'm working with local people there. Uh,

237
00:15:09,219 --> 00:15:12,641
the Timorese, uh, with, uh, Dr. Lowe's Clausen's, she's actually

238
00:15:12,661 --> 00:15:16,653
a South African who did her PhD at a Rhodes university. where

239
00:15:16,733 --> 00:15:21,136
I did, but she's an earlier career researcher,

240
00:15:21,156 --> 00:15:25,359
and she actually worked on pipefish and seahorses. And so

241
00:15:25,399 --> 00:15:29,462
she didn't really know anything about sharks, and so she

242
00:15:29,502 --> 00:15:32,745
contacted me, and now we're actually gonna be

243
00:15:32,825 --> 00:15:36,968
doing some stuff on sharks, because she connected, this is

244
00:15:36,988 --> 00:15:40,150
why it's really important to work with people in country, because she connected me with all

245
00:15:40,170 --> 00:15:44,325
the people at the university, within the government, The

246
00:15:44,425 --> 00:15:47,567
person who's in charge of their blue economy unit and everything, and I had

247
00:15:47,587 --> 00:15:51,348
a chance to speak with them, give talks, do workshops. And

248
00:15:51,408 --> 00:15:54,630
so I was able to do a lot of that stuff while I was there.

249
00:15:54,650 --> 00:15:58,552
I made a lot for the short amount of time I was there, I made quite a bit of progress in

250
00:15:58,632 --> 00:16:02,673
terms of laying the groundwork for what I hope will be some future research

251
00:16:02,754 --> 00:16:05,835
over there. And then we went around everywhere. As I said, the

252
00:16:05,875 --> 00:16:09,316
dry season, we were just going. It was a little easier

253
00:16:09,336 --> 00:16:12,498
to get around, but the roads were not very good. It'd take you hours to

254
00:16:12,538 --> 00:16:16,529
go. you know, 10, 20 kilometers just sometimes, just

255
00:16:16,569 --> 00:16:19,971
because the roads were so bad. And then, you know, the interesting

256
00:16:20,011 --> 00:16:23,673
thing, just not to dwell all on the crocodiles, but there's

257
00:16:23,693 --> 00:16:27,255
so many crocodiles in Timor, you'd stop, like,

258
00:16:27,275 --> 00:16:30,537
you know, you may or may not be at some place

259
00:16:30,557 --> 00:16:34,058
where you could actually have a bathroom facility or something, and you can't actually

260
00:16:34,098 --> 00:16:37,140
walk off the road because you might get taken by a

261
00:16:37,180 --> 00:16:41,031
crocodile. And you would be like, there'd be situations where

262
00:16:41,211 --> 00:16:44,312
I'd be like walking across a bridge to the beach, and you

263
00:16:44,332 --> 00:16:48,393
look down to one side of the bridge and you see like this 15-foot crocodile. You

264
00:16:48,413 --> 00:16:52,374
look on the other side of the bridge and a bunch of kids are playing in the creek. And

265
00:16:52,714 --> 00:16:55,855
the locals have, you ask them about them, they're just like, well, you know, they

266
00:16:55,895 --> 00:16:59,036
live here too. And, you know, which I'd be

267
00:17:02,916 --> 00:17:06,157
About that. And they have names for all the, the local

268
00:17:06,217 --> 00:17:10,266
crocodiles that they're familiar with, they have names for all of them. The

269
00:17:10,306 --> 00:17:13,669
thing I hit on was almost every place

270
00:17:13,709 --> 00:17:17,191
we went, you talk to people and you get some story of, oh

271
00:17:17,231 --> 00:17:20,594
yeah, somebody got taken last week by a crocodile. Somebody got taken

272
00:17:20,634 --> 00:17:23,856
a few weeks ago, last month. There's some recent story about

273
00:17:23,916 --> 00:17:27,059
somebody at every place we went. And you're thinking like,

274
00:17:27,099 --> 00:17:30,181
my God, these things are like all over the place. And they're just like, well, you just got to be

275
00:17:30,201 --> 00:17:33,884
careful where you walk. And I'm thinking like, yeah, okay. Just

276
00:17:33,924 --> 00:17:37,927
be careful. But you know, you can easily forget. You're going along, look at the countryside, beautiful

277
00:17:37,967 --> 00:17:41,423
places, look at the ocean. And just so everybody understands, these

278
00:17:41,443 --> 00:17:45,166
are saltwater crocodiles. So it's like, yeah,

279
00:17:45,186 --> 00:17:48,969
so like we're, you know, on the beach looking at somebody fisherman's catch. And

280
00:17:48,989 --> 00:17:52,572
then we look up the beach, like about a hundred meters. And there's this big crocodile

281
00:17:52,652 --> 00:17:55,914
comes walking out of the bush, walks across the beach, goes and surf and goes swimming out.

282
00:17:56,675 --> 00:17:59,777
And so, um, you realize like, okay, I may not,

283
00:17:59,937 --> 00:18:03,940
even though it's like, it's a beautiful looking beach. I may not want to go swimming out here because

284
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,470
it might not end well for me. And, um, So,

285
00:18:07,490 --> 00:18:10,731
that was kind of some of the prep stuff. That

286
00:18:10,771 --> 00:18:14,171
stuff you can't really, all you can do is talk to the locals and be as alert as

287
00:18:14,191 --> 00:18:17,972
you can on where you are. I talked a little

288
00:18:17,992 --> 00:18:21,612
bit about the megafauna, but you got things you weren't concerned about.

289
00:18:22,033 --> 00:18:25,573
You prep as best you can for it, but you got things

290
00:18:25,593 --> 00:18:28,734
like malaria, dengue fever, and those types of

291
00:18:28,774 --> 00:18:32,294
diseases from mosquitoes you got to be concerned about

292
00:18:32,354 --> 00:18:35,615
as well. So, you do the best you can in terms of those types

293
00:18:35,675 --> 00:18:38,882
of precautions. you have to realize some places, I have

294
00:18:42,083 --> 00:18:45,605
Yeah, that's crazy. I would not have thought of that, especially Timor-Leste, right?

295
00:18:46,305 --> 00:18:49,687
I mean, yeah, the main town, yeah, the main town, you speculate, yeah,

296
00:18:49,727 --> 00:18:52,868
no problem. But yeah, so we got, we were in some pretty remote areas and

297
00:18:52,908 --> 00:18:56,730
you still could get, most places you could get some internet, which

298
00:18:56,750 --> 00:19:00,112
was, which was amazing to us. So I was glad we could,

299
00:19:00,992 --> 00:19:04,179
because in case there was some issue we could I don't get

300
00:19:04,199 --> 00:19:07,582
a hold of somebody. I don't know who is going to come out there because they don't exactly have like

301
00:19:08,262 --> 00:19:12,866
emergency services. It's

302
00:19:12,886 --> 00:19:15,988
a beautiful country. I really enjoyed it. And I say, we're going to try to get some more. I'm

303
00:19:17,489 --> 00:19:21,092
going to try to follow up and do some more research there. We're going to work

304
00:19:21,112 --> 00:19:24,255
with Lowe and some of the other people I met there in the

305
00:19:24,295 --> 00:19:27,497
dive community and with the government and the university, try

306
00:19:27,517 --> 00:19:30,900
to develop a project to document the species that

307
00:19:30,940 --> 00:19:34,700
occur there. So that's, that's kind of looking like a really, really potential

308
00:19:34,820 --> 00:19:38,122
long term, interesting project. And we're already, we're already seeing some really

309
00:19:38,162 --> 00:19:42,304
interesting species that they've been catching out

310
00:19:42,344 --> 00:19:45,845
there. So I won't go into it here, but there's some really, there

311
00:19:45,865 --> 00:19:48,987
were some lost sharks we definitely stumbled across out there. And so there could be some

312
00:19:49,027 --> 00:19:52,269
really interesting. more things to come. So kind of stay tuned on that

313
00:19:53,870 --> 00:19:57,073
Well, let me let me ask you this, too, because you're in a number

314
00:19:57,093 --> 00:20:00,355
of different countries, a number of different cultures, and you've done this before. You've done this

315
00:20:00,415 --> 00:20:03,658
for quite some time now, like, you know, 30, 40 years of

316
00:20:04,098 --> 00:20:07,521
going to different countries, you know, meeting new

317
00:20:07,581 --> 00:20:10,984
people. Sometimes there's language barriers, sometimes

318
00:20:11,024 --> 00:20:14,647
there isn't. Especially now, we

319
00:20:14,907 --> 00:20:18,710
talk a lot about parachute

320
00:20:18,750 --> 00:20:22,113
science. A lot of people are concerned about

321
00:20:22,133 --> 00:20:25,636
that. Because back in the day when you were first starting off in

322
00:20:26,337 --> 00:20:30,220
science, and sometimes it even happens today, there are certain scientists and

323
00:20:30,380 --> 00:20:33,763
organizations who will go into a country. I'm just

324
00:20:33,783 --> 00:20:36,945
defining what parachute science is. They go into a country, get the data that

325
00:20:36,965 --> 00:20:40,248
they want, publish on it, work it out, publish on

326
00:20:40,288 --> 00:20:43,750
it, and not really give back to

327
00:20:44,251 --> 00:20:47,513
the people there. But you tend to work with the

328
00:20:47,553 --> 00:20:50,736
people when you go there. You interact with people, you have a lot of

329
00:20:50,796 --> 00:20:55,320
friends that still to this day, like in Taiwan, all

330
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,003
over Africa, not just South Africa, but all over Africa where you've done

331
00:20:59,043 --> 00:21:02,626
workshops and things like that. When you go into a new country,

332
00:21:02,766 --> 00:21:07,209
like Timor-Leste, How do you approach the

333
00:21:07,249 --> 00:21:10,551
people who are taking you around, not only just the graduate students, but

334
00:21:10,571 --> 00:21:13,653
the local people who you met? What's the

335
00:21:13,753 --> 00:21:17,015
process there that you take that other people can learn from when

336
00:21:17,035 --> 00:21:20,157
they go into new countries so that they don't, you don't

337
00:21:20,177 --> 00:21:23,319
wanna disrespect anybody, you wanna make sure that you're

338
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,701
thankful and just share that data

339
00:21:29,263 --> 00:21:32,465
A lot of it's just a lot of us come from networking and you know

340
00:21:32,845 --> 00:21:36,288
you just haven't over the years I just get to know people I network and if

341
00:21:36,328 --> 00:21:39,550
I don't know somebody directly I'll I'll talk to someone else in

342
00:21:39,570 --> 00:21:43,152
the case of this one with um actually for the whole trip it

343
00:21:43,172 --> 00:21:46,274
was all people I knew contacts and like and even the Timor-Leste which

344
00:21:46,314 --> 00:21:50,157
had never been explored I I did a paper about

345
00:21:50,197 --> 00:21:53,639
a year ago with uh with Lo Clausens who's with World

346
00:21:53,699 --> 00:21:56,901
Fish and she was based in Palau and then

347
00:21:56,921 --> 00:22:00,084
it was and it was kind of a little bit of a fluke It doesn't always happen this

348
00:22:00,124 --> 00:22:03,426
way, but she contacted me about identifying some sharks

349
00:22:03,486 --> 00:22:07,248
and rays they were seeing. And she mentioned she was in Timor-Leste.

350
00:22:07,288 --> 00:22:10,470
And then that led to, oh, what are you doing there? And she's, oh, I

351
00:22:10,510 --> 00:22:13,751
live here now and I'm doing some work. And so I was, so

352
00:22:13,791 --> 00:22:17,694
I started, we started communicating back and forth and then she hooked

353
00:22:17,774 --> 00:22:21,696
us up, hooked me up with some of the other people there to get by.

354
00:22:21,776 --> 00:22:25,638
Cause you know, World Fish is an NGO and there's a lot of countries like Timor.

355
00:22:25,658 --> 00:22:29,568
There's a lot of NGOs in there. There's a lot of aid. Programs

356
00:22:29,628 --> 00:22:32,769
in there and so like and so she was able to

357
00:22:32,809 --> 00:22:36,630
hook me up with some of the government people

358
00:22:36,690 --> 00:22:40,111
the head of their blue economy unit for example some of the people

359
00:22:40,131 --> 00:22:43,311
at the university there and So and so we just

360
00:22:43,331 --> 00:22:46,412
started corresponding and I said like, you know, hey, I could you know, we

361
00:22:46,432 --> 00:22:49,553
can do some workshop I can do a workshop there just a short at

362
00:22:49,573 --> 00:22:52,774
least an introductory thing on how to identify stuff We got it. We

363
00:22:52,814 --> 00:22:56,014
got buy-in from the dive community there So I

364
00:22:56,054 --> 00:23:00,517
had like I have a I got a fairly wide net cast

365
00:23:00,537 --> 00:23:05,179
there, but it was all because of this one individual, Lo, who I

366
00:23:05,259 --> 00:23:09,920
knew from a previous project I'd worked on. She basically

367
00:23:09,940 --> 00:23:14,781
connected me in there. So we had correspondence. It goes through

368
00:23:14,821 --> 00:23:19,183
sort of the get to know each other phase. And

369
00:23:19,203 --> 00:23:22,443
then so I went there and had a chance to go explore the whole island.

370
00:23:22,463 --> 00:23:26,325
There are a couple of Timor people

371
00:23:26,345 --> 00:23:29,797
who work for World Fish because they have local people working

372
00:23:29,817 --> 00:23:32,918
for them as well. And so they were kind of invaluable in the

373
00:23:32,958 --> 00:23:36,180
whole thing, really, because they know the terrain very

374
00:23:36,220 --> 00:23:39,321
well. They obviously speak the language. The language wasn't as

375
00:23:39,381 --> 00:23:42,503
big a barrier, because most people could speak some level of

376
00:23:42,583 --> 00:23:46,325
English there, and where they couldn't, these guys were great. Actually, Portuguese

377
00:23:46,345 --> 00:23:49,627
is the main language over there, so it's not even a...

378
00:23:49,787 --> 00:23:53,148
And there's Timorese, a local language as

379
00:23:53,188 --> 00:23:57,053
well. They've got a few languages, but English was able to get around. Yeah,

380
00:23:57,073 --> 00:24:00,294
so there was a couple of guys, Junior and Sam, who were

381
00:24:00,354 --> 00:24:03,995
on the whole journey with us. Another guy named Jerry, they're all

382
00:24:04,035 --> 00:24:07,997
local Timorese people, and they work for World Fish. And

383
00:24:08,877 --> 00:24:12,118
we spent some time going over things to identify them with.

384
00:24:12,198 --> 00:24:15,699
I gave them a copy of my field guide, the

385
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,396
sharks of the world. And just show you know spend a

386
00:24:19,416 --> 00:24:22,657
little bit of time showed him what to do talk with the fishing community So

387
00:24:22,757 --> 00:24:26,198
it's just really networking talking to people and I you

388
00:24:26,218 --> 00:24:29,379
know I never go in there like I'm gonna like I never go in there's like I'm

389
00:24:29,399 --> 00:24:33,821
gonna crusade to do something I always take more of the Approach

390
00:24:33,941 --> 00:24:37,722
of you know, hey I can provide information You guys

391
00:24:37,762 --> 00:24:40,923
need to decide what you want to do with it Yeah, you know as far as with the

392
00:24:40,983 --> 00:24:44,685
government like I'm not in there telling like don't fin don't fish sharks this

393
00:24:44,705 --> 00:24:48,233
is I just You know, right, especially in Timor, where we don't know anything,

394
00:24:48,573 --> 00:24:51,875
we're developing like a list of species now, and we're seeing some really

395
00:24:51,955 --> 00:24:55,237
interesting species, we didn't even, we had no idea. And so like,

396
00:24:55,377 --> 00:24:58,878
all this information will collate. And then, again,

397
00:24:58,918 --> 00:25:02,120
I, you know, I've already been in touch, you know, met with the head

398
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,302
of their Blue Economy Unit and stuff and, yeah, university people. So

399
00:25:05,322 --> 00:25:08,846
I'm just going to provide this information. I'll work with them, I'll train the local people

400
00:25:08,906 --> 00:25:12,087
with them. Hopefully we'll be able to get some additional funding so I can go

401
00:25:12,147 --> 00:25:15,389
back and do a more deeper dive. I mean, I only had

402
00:25:15,449 --> 00:25:18,890
really, it doesn't sound like a lot, but I had five full-on days,

403
00:25:19,830 --> 00:25:23,092
five, six days really full-on just going through the place.

404
00:25:23,132 --> 00:25:26,173
I mean, look, I could cover the country in that time, and I

405
00:25:26,193 --> 00:25:29,414
went to all the main areas, made the contacts, and hopefully I'll

406
00:25:29,434 --> 00:25:32,916
lay the groundwork for some future work and go

407
00:25:32,976 --> 00:25:36,540
back and do some more training there. Hopefully,

408
00:25:36,580 --> 00:25:39,821
out of this whole thing, we'll be able to develop a database of species, what's

409
00:25:39,861 --> 00:25:43,101
being caught. And then, you know, I'm like, kind

410
00:25:43,141 --> 00:25:46,722
of done my part there. And, you know, hopefully, we'll get a few scientific papers

411
00:25:46,822 --> 00:25:50,023
out of it. And, you know, I'll collaborate with the local people there to write

412
00:25:50,043 --> 00:25:53,844
up some papers as they want. And then, kind

413
00:25:53,864 --> 00:25:57,024
of, here's the information. And hopefully, they'll, they can decide as,

414
00:26:00,550 --> 00:26:03,933
Yeah, that's really cool. I mean, I think that's it's a really interesting

415
00:26:03,993 --> 00:26:07,276
way How long did it take you to learn to do

416
00:26:07,397 --> 00:26:10,840
all this? you know what I mean, like, you know you sometimes you were traveling when

417
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,203
you were young and and and you know, I would say not to

418
00:26:14,343 --> 00:26:17,506
be an insult but like naive of You know what the

419
00:26:17,606 --> 00:26:20,929
like what you know now right like you've gathered so much information and

420
00:26:20,970 --> 00:26:24,732
so much experience You know Like for

421
00:26:24,832 --> 00:26:27,973
some people who are listening to this who might want to do the same thing, they want

422
00:26:27,993 --> 00:26:31,193
to discover new species or they want to describe a new species, they might be doing it

423
00:26:31,474 --> 00:26:34,894
just as you have suggested in the past is like pick something that

424
00:26:34,914 --> 00:26:38,375
you don't know, we don't know much about and study that. Sometimes those

425
00:26:38,455 --> 00:26:41,896
are in countries we haven't really explored before. And

426
00:26:42,496 --> 00:26:46,176
so like how would you recommend and how did you sort

427
00:26:49,592 --> 00:26:53,055
The first thing is I kind of just got it. I mean, I

428
00:26:53,075 --> 00:26:56,497
learned a lot working like with my doing my master's degree

429
00:26:56,537 --> 00:26:59,620
here in California. Right. I just because I was working with people, I

430
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,823
kind of, you know, I just work with mainly the fishing community. Yeah. And

431
00:27:03,923 --> 00:27:07,226
so I just learned to like work with people like in the fishing

432
00:27:07,266 --> 00:27:10,568
community and like and it's a little different in different countries. But,

433
00:27:10,588 --> 00:27:13,891
you know, some of it translates very easily. And then after that, from

434
00:27:13,931 --> 00:27:18,082
there, I just got to know People,

435
00:27:18,162 --> 00:27:21,283
like, you know, I've mentioned this story, and I knew Leonard Coppagno, who

436
00:27:21,303 --> 00:27:24,483
was in San Francisco, and he took a job in South Africa. And that kind of led

437
00:27:24,503 --> 00:27:27,704
to my, really my next step in my career, was going

438
00:27:27,724 --> 00:27:30,865
to South Africa. And then just, I would just go

439
00:27:30,905 --> 00:27:34,785
to fishing communities around there, villages and stuff, and just talk

440
00:27:34,805 --> 00:27:37,906
to the people, and just kind of get to know them,

441
00:27:37,946 --> 00:27:41,227
and, you know, made friendships, you know, as I went along. And it was just

442
00:27:41,527 --> 00:27:44,698
literally, and most people, you kind of show up there, Especially if you're

443
00:27:44,718 --> 00:27:48,739
a foreigner, they kind of like you're you're sort of a novelty, like especially

444
00:27:48,759 --> 00:27:52,400
in areas where they haven't really seen too many foreigners. And, you know,

445
00:27:52,420 --> 00:27:55,661
like out and the kind of towards the

446
00:27:55,681 --> 00:27:59,822
end of the trip was out in the Western Indonesia, which

447
00:27:59,882 --> 00:28:03,083
is very, you know, I mean, they you go out, they see

448
00:28:03,123 --> 00:28:06,584
very few Westerners, you know, out there, very, very few, very,

449
00:28:06,944 --> 00:28:10,064
very few white people. I mean, you see any others or no other white people out there when I

450
00:28:10,104 --> 00:28:13,829
was there and I was working with Naya Simone. It's one of Pete's PhD

451
00:28:13,869 --> 00:28:17,271
students. And she's been on the podcast talking about wedge fish

452
00:28:17,311 --> 00:28:20,512
and stuff. And she was really the guide. She

453
00:28:20,552 --> 00:28:23,793
really helped make things happen throughout Indonesia. Because we started off

454
00:28:23,833 --> 00:28:28,034
in Bali. And I know Bali's a bit of a tourist

455
00:28:28,074 --> 00:28:33,096
destination. But I was not in the tourist parts of Bali. But

456
00:28:33,136 --> 00:28:36,377
we were in the fishing part where they still have fishing going on.

457
00:28:36,397 --> 00:28:40,479
And we found two spectacular sharks

458
00:28:41,403 --> 00:28:44,665
critically endangered species there was one we're kind of looking

459
00:28:44,705 --> 00:28:47,827
for and we spent some time talking to the fishermen and again this is

460
00:28:47,847 --> 00:28:51,029
where Naya was really you know she knows the terrain she knows the

461
00:28:51,069 --> 00:28:54,150
people we're talking with people and everything we kept getting is

462
00:28:54,311 --> 00:28:57,432
uh we haven't seen these things for years and these were species well one

463
00:28:57,452 --> 00:29:01,135
of them we thought was you know maybe you know on the serious decline

464
00:29:01,155 --> 00:29:04,557
well it's critically endangered and the last day we're there

465
00:29:04,577 --> 00:29:08,199
it was it was a this is how it happens sometimes

466
00:29:08,699 --> 00:29:12,113
you know one of the team members, Julia

467
00:29:12,133 --> 00:29:15,234
Constance, carrying some sharks. And we go,

468
00:29:15,274 --> 00:29:19,377
oh, let's go check those out. Went over to where they brought the sharks. And

469
00:29:19,397 --> 00:29:22,738
the next thing we see are all these other sharks that we're looking for. And

470
00:29:22,778 --> 00:29:25,860
we're like, oh, my God. And then it turned out the one we're looking for, we

471
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,402
found. But it turned out there was a second one there that

472
00:29:30,062 --> 00:29:33,244
we didn't, that now this is even rarer than the other

473
00:29:33,304 --> 00:29:37,826
one we're looking for. So we kind of got a twofer. So that

474
00:29:37,887 --> 00:29:41,072
stuff keeps me going. I mean, I've been doing this for years. I

475
00:29:41,092 --> 00:29:44,334
get so pumped up with that. But then the thing is, the thing

476
00:29:44,374 --> 00:29:47,555
just disappeared. They took it and they're taking it away. And so

477
00:29:47,575 --> 00:29:51,037
I had to follow them, and Naya followed too, because literally,

478
00:29:51,517 --> 00:29:54,979
and this is kind of the thing is, 30 seconds either way, we'd

479
00:29:54,999 --> 00:29:58,241
have missed them. Either too soon, too late, we'd have missed the whole

480
00:29:58,281 --> 00:30:02,143
thing. And so we ended up finding two species that haven't

481
00:30:02,163 --> 00:30:05,304
been seen for years. And so now we've been able to

482
00:30:05,344 --> 00:30:08,986
document them. And we talked to the fishermen. We know where they caught them, where

483
00:30:09,006 --> 00:30:12,285
they are. We got some more information. talking more

484
00:30:12,325 --> 00:30:16,206
about that later on and some stuff we're doing with this

485
00:30:16,286 --> 00:30:21,307
project. But anyway, that was Bali. And then we went on to Jakarta. After

486
00:30:21,347 --> 00:30:25,687
that, I met with another colleague of mine who I've known for years, Fahmi,

487
00:30:27,068 --> 00:30:30,768
who has his doctorate. He's worked for the Indonesian Fisheries Service

488
00:30:32,529 --> 00:30:36,149
Agency. And so we spent time going

489
00:30:36,169 --> 00:30:39,310
through his collection. He's got a phenomenal collection. And I found a

490
00:30:39,350 --> 00:30:42,595
few species that he's recently collected that

491
00:30:42,635 --> 00:30:46,056
well he knew what they were he he showed me what they were and i was like oh man we haven't seen

492
00:30:46,096 --> 00:30:49,277
these in years and and and then and

493
00:30:49,437 --> 00:30:52,878
interestingly pulled out a few deep sea sharks that um

494
00:30:53,599 --> 00:30:56,760
he was trying he hadn't been able to identify yet and a couple of them

495
00:30:56,780 --> 00:31:00,141
turned out to be range extensions like big range extensions and

496
00:31:00,561 --> 00:31:03,690
one of them looks like it's probably a new species So that was kind

497
00:31:05,371 --> 00:31:09,194
Oh yeah. Just to be able to find it and be like, yeah, I think that's new. I haven't seen that one before,

498
00:31:09,714 --> 00:31:12,856
Yeah, I know. And so we kind of got the

499
00:31:12,896 --> 00:31:16,058
whole, then from there after Jakarta, and well, let me back up a bit. In

500
00:31:16,098 --> 00:31:19,300
Jakarta, one of the things we went there for was

501
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,043
to look for where had been the Java stingray, stingray.

502
00:31:23,343 --> 00:31:26,865
Right. And that was extinct, or there was a published paper

503
00:31:27,766 --> 00:31:30,908
Yeah, Julia, who was on the show at the beginning of the year

504
00:31:30,948 --> 00:31:34,291
in January, and Pete Kine, And I published a

505
00:31:34,332 --> 00:31:37,934
paper, I have a paper, actually it's in press now,

506
00:31:38,794 --> 00:31:42,376
declaring the species extinct. And it's the first time you've had a marine. Big news around.

507
00:31:42,456 --> 00:31:45,538
It's huge, huge news. And so we went out and

508
00:31:45,558 --> 00:31:48,740
wanted to go see like, why is this thing probably gone? And because it

509
00:31:48,780 --> 00:31:51,922
was, so we went to the location in Jakarta where this thing apparently had

510
00:31:51,942 --> 00:31:55,084
been landed. You know, it was landed in 1862. So we're doing

511
00:31:55,104 --> 00:31:59,006
the best we can to identify it. But

512
00:31:59,046 --> 00:32:02,881
we went out, we did a lot of looking around and Talking with Julia and

513
00:32:03,021 --> 00:32:06,563
interviewing her and Naya as well, pretty much the

514
00:32:06,623 --> 00:32:09,784
habitat for this species was pretty much probably wiped out

515
00:32:09,824 --> 00:32:13,766
by 1900 once Jakarta started to build because they

516
00:32:13,786 --> 00:32:17,757
did a lot of it as land reclamation which took out a lot of the mangroves. Right.

517
00:32:17,937 --> 00:32:21,420
And so pretty much this species. I'm

518
00:32:22,140 --> 00:32:25,443
after being where I was and looking there. Yeah, it's probably gone.

519
00:32:25,983 --> 00:32:29,105
It's we went out, we did stood out, went out, do those surveys out on

520
00:32:29,125 --> 00:32:32,408
the boat there in the Java Sea. But it's it's

521
00:32:32,448 --> 00:32:35,790
habitats gone. And so she expects this

522
00:32:35,810 --> 00:32:39,453
thing's probably been extinct for over 100 years now. And

523
00:32:39,473 --> 00:32:42,895
again, this that this highlights what

524
00:32:42,935 --> 00:32:46,457
I do, because this is a shark that there's nobody's

525
00:32:46,518 --> 00:32:50,216
thought about. And yet here it is gone extinct and almost

526
00:32:50,977 --> 00:32:55,519
until we raised some awareness of this and Julia did this paper, nobody

527
00:32:55,559 --> 00:32:59,541
even knew this thing. And, and so kind of what I do is

528
00:32:59,621 --> 00:33:03,182
to try to find these things before they go. And I mentioned

529
00:33:03,242 --> 00:33:06,604
a couple of sharks we found in Bali. Okay. Even though they were, they'd

530
00:33:06,624 --> 00:33:09,825
been caught by fishermen and they were dead. We know like where to go look for

531
00:33:09,865 --> 00:33:13,287
these things now. So we could go back with bruvs or whatever to find live

532
00:33:13,347 --> 00:33:16,920
ones, but we know where to go look now. And then, of course, I

533
00:33:16,980 --> 00:33:20,422
had a great time. I've known Fahmi for a long time. We've described new species

534
00:33:20,462 --> 00:33:23,603
together. He's just a wonderful guy. I keep coming back

535
00:33:23,623 --> 00:33:26,944
to this theme you asked about how I know what to do when I go there. I've

536
00:33:26,984 --> 00:33:30,265
just learned over the years, Andrew. And it's just getting to know people.

537
00:33:32,826 --> 00:33:36,767
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I ran identification training

538
00:33:36,807 --> 00:33:40,349
workshops 12 years ago that Fahmi

539
00:33:40,369 --> 00:33:43,670
was at. And we've known each other before

540
00:33:43,710 --> 00:33:46,818
that. So I've had opportunities to meet these people and get to

541
00:33:46,858 --> 00:33:50,101
know them. It's building relationships with them and that

542
00:33:50,141 --> 00:33:53,284
takes time and it takes, you know, I'm not showing up there like, okay, I

543
00:33:53,304 --> 00:33:56,586
need to get this, this, this, and this. You know, I go out there, I have tea, I

544
00:33:56,626 --> 00:33:59,969
have coffee, have lunch. You build a relationship. You build

545
00:34:00,009 --> 00:34:03,092
relationships. And so these people, cause I

546
00:34:03,132 --> 00:34:06,315
may not see these guys for years, but they'll contact me when they got something new.

547
00:34:07,175 --> 00:34:10,367
Yep. So, yeah. So anyway, so after Jakarta, which, I

548
00:34:10,387 --> 00:34:13,588
have to say, of everywhere I went, I don't need to go to Jakarta again if I don't

549
00:34:13,648 --> 00:34:17,369
have to. But everywhere else was lovely. We

550
00:34:17,389 --> 00:34:22,630
went out to Rio Islands, which was fairly remote. And

551
00:34:22,690 --> 00:34:25,890
I was running some training identification workshops for a lot

552
00:34:25,910 --> 00:34:29,351
of the Indonesian CITES inspectors were out there. So

553
00:34:29,371 --> 00:34:32,652
that was a great chance to make a whole range of new

554
00:34:32,992 --> 00:34:36,573
contacts, you know, having whatever 50, 60 people

555
00:34:36,613 --> 00:34:39,917
in the room. Going over and it was like a two three

556
00:34:39,977 --> 00:34:43,639
day Thing where I went through and we lectured and I was most

557
00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:47,242
of us understood English, but Naya was she also spoke But

558
00:34:47,282 --> 00:34:50,604
she was translating into Indonesian for us and because I don't that's

559
00:34:50,624 --> 00:34:54,026
the thing too is I don't speak these languages I have no problem going

560
00:34:54,066 --> 00:34:57,428
in there. I got somebody that knows how to Interpret that

561
00:34:57,468 --> 00:35:00,570
helps that helps a lot So I was able to go out there and

562
00:35:00,610 --> 00:35:03,872
do you know do some of that's do that do this training

563
00:35:03,892 --> 00:35:07,310
workshop? we went out to the a couple of the fish markets

564
00:35:07,350 --> 00:35:11,992
there, the traders. Found a number, oh man, somewhere

565
00:35:12,452 --> 00:35:16,733
probably about 10 species that are critically endangered at

566
00:35:17,114 --> 00:35:21,095
this market, including a couple that were really rare to find. And

567
00:35:21,175 --> 00:35:24,596
so that's going to be a whole other thing we did. But it was great because here

568
00:35:24,636 --> 00:35:28,918
I'm actually doing what I like to do. I'm showing, training people Not

569
00:35:28,938 --> 00:35:32,421
that these people don't already know a lot already because they're societies inspectors but

570
00:35:32,461 --> 00:35:35,543
I'm giving a little bit of nuance that I think I like to feel is kind of

571
00:35:35,583 --> 00:35:38,786
helping them out and They're very grateful for it.

572
00:35:38,846 --> 00:35:42,449
And now I got a whole bunch of other contacts all spread out through Indonesia

573
00:35:43,310 --> 00:35:46,613
to work with and we also went out to some of the islands there where Naya

574
00:35:46,653 --> 00:35:49,776
is doing some of her work and Because a big thing, you

575
00:35:49,796 --> 00:35:52,978
know, she's looking for the wedge clownfish, which she

576
00:35:53,158 --> 00:35:56,430
showed me some that she'd found last year And this

577
00:35:56,450 --> 00:36:00,012
is a species that we thought, another species we thought was extinct

578
00:36:00,113 --> 00:36:03,275
because it hadn't been seen for years. And now we have a few records of

579
00:36:03,315 --> 00:36:06,737
this thing within the last two, three years now. And

580
00:36:07,258 --> 00:36:10,781
so that's, that was really cool. But, and there's some, you know,

581
00:36:10,981 --> 00:36:14,163
fascinating being out in these villages, because let's say

582
00:36:14,203 --> 00:36:18,046
most of them have never seen a Westerner or met a Westerner before. And

583
00:36:18,086 --> 00:36:21,308
so it's really kind of cool for me interacting with them and kind of things that make

584
00:36:21,509 --> 00:36:24,667
kind of really makes you feel kind of warm inside is like,

585
00:36:24,687 --> 00:36:27,889
you know, these people don't have like a lot to begin with, but they're

586
00:36:27,929 --> 00:36:31,050
so graceful, like to have a chance to

587
00:36:31,070 --> 00:36:34,492
meet somebody, you know, from like the United States. And

588
00:36:34,532 --> 00:36:37,973
that, you know, they're offering me like, you know, give me a little Coke is a sort

589
00:36:37,993 --> 00:36:41,134
of a, you know, you know, thanks for coming by. And I'm like, Oh, no, you don't have to do

590
00:36:43,195 --> 00:36:47,037
Coke. No, Coke. No. C-O-K-E. Coke. Coca-Cola.

591
00:36:47,853 --> 00:36:53,075
Oh, okay. Yeah. I was worried it was a different type of Coke. Coca-Cola.

592
00:36:59,138 --> 00:37:02,660
Get your mind out of the gutter. I just wanted to confirm just

593
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,021
to make sure people think you're not going on these crazy things.

594
00:37:10,074 --> 00:37:13,376
Just wanted to be sure, just try to do my duties as

595
00:37:14,997 --> 00:37:18,458
But it's the kind of thing that's almost more

596
00:37:18,538 --> 00:37:22,540
rewarding to me personally, just the kindness of these people and

597
00:37:22,580 --> 00:37:26,362
like their kids come in there and they come from school. I had some pictures

598
00:37:26,823 --> 00:37:30,204
on social media and it was just great.

599
00:37:34,727 --> 00:37:38,330
Yeah, and if you saw some of the pictures I post, it's like it's You

600
00:37:38,350 --> 00:37:41,592
talk about some of the, I talked about crocodiles and diseases, like just

601
00:37:41,632 --> 00:37:45,555
trying to navigate around, like look at the little bridge they put in there to

602
00:37:45,595 --> 00:37:49,417
get out to the docks. I think I got some pictures posted on Instagram. Uh,

603
00:37:49,477 --> 00:37:53,360
you know, you want to be really freaking careful cause you could fall

604
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,822
and hurt yourself really badly out there and stuff. And,

605
00:37:59,304 --> 00:38:02,806
I mean, I think I think that's that's really good. Like when you get to make

606
00:38:02,846 --> 00:38:06,008
those connections, it's part of the process, right? It's part

607
00:38:06,028 --> 00:38:09,251
of the trips. It's not just finding these sharks that haven't been found

608
00:38:09,291 --> 00:38:12,913
in a while. It's it's meeting new people. It's understanding different

609
00:38:12,953 --> 00:38:16,075
cultures, being a part of like being exposed to

610
00:38:16,115 --> 00:38:19,517
those different cultures. And I think that's that's a really cool

611
00:38:19,577 --> 00:38:23,740
part about being a scientist, especially when you're traveling internationally, is

612
00:38:23,820 --> 00:38:27,322
to have that openness and have that You

613
00:38:27,422 --> 00:38:30,783
know urge to be able to learn from

614
00:38:30,824 --> 00:38:34,085
different people and connect with different people all over the world Yeah, I think a thing is

615
00:38:34,485 --> 00:38:37,746
It's like it's been I've

616
00:38:37,766 --> 00:38:41,288
got an explorer heart. I like to explore and I like yeah, and

617
00:38:41,308 --> 00:38:44,489
I like to not just go in there Just like okay. I'm gonna find

618
00:38:44,529 --> 00:38:47,970
the shark. Okay. I mean, that's a cool thing to do But like just the

619
00:38:48,010 --> 00:38:51,231
connections the people I meet those are the memories I

620
00:38:51,251 --> 00:38:54,925
probably take away more than anything with some of those

621
00:38:54,965 --> 00:38:58,168
things. And those are the most rewarding things. Feeling like I'm

622
00:38:58,208 --> 00:39:01,991
able to, especially at this point, too, in my career where I'm working

623
00:39:02,011 --> 00:39:05,193
with some really dynamic young grad students and I'm able to pass along a

624
00:39:05,233 --> 00:39:08,636
lot of my knowledge and experience to them. And they're

625
00:39:08,656 --> 00:39:12,159
very grateful. I mean, I had three of Pete's grad

626
00:39:12,199 --> 00:39:15,361
students for basically, I don't want to say held

627
00:39:15,381 --> 00:39:18,644
hostage for like three and a half weeks as we were traveling around

628
00:39:18,684 --> 00:39:21,921
the place, but I think they they didn't have a chance to

629
00:39:21,981 --> 00:39:25,142
work with me, you know, going around the place, I think was very, it

630
00:39:25,963 --> 00:39:29,184
was good. They really enjoyed it. They enjoyed that, having that connection, that

631
00:39:29,224 --> 00:39:32,826
time together and everything. And, um, so, so

632
00:39:32,846 --> 00:39:35,987
yeah, that's, that's really the big reward to me is just, uh, the people to

633
00:39:36,027 --> 00:39:39,309
work with and the people I meet and, uh, be able to pass along

634
00:39:39,349 --> 00:39:42,651
that knowledge. So yeah, it was, it was a, it was a wonderful trip.

635
00:39:42,731 --> 00:39:45,912
And, uh, we're, as, as you mentioned, and I mentioned, we, we

636
00:39:45,972 --> 00:39:50,632
documented this thing as a part of the save our seas, uh, Project

637
00:39:50,733 --> 00:39:53,915
and we'll be put we'll be having some videos coming up in the next

638
00:39:53,955 --> 00:39:57,418
few months some little video stories about the journeys the

639
00:39:57,458 --> 00:40:01,501
difference different things about it talking about some of the Hardships

640
00:40:01,561 --> 00:40:04,984
and some of the rewards of doing the whole of doing the whole project And

641
00:40:05,504 --> 00:40:08,807
you know, I just want to again just give a big shout out Thanks

642
00:40:08,847 --> 00:40:12,830
to save our seas because they're just there's just not a lot of organizations

643
00:40:13,351 --> 00:40:17,814
that will fund this type of type of work that I do and

644
00:40:18,034 --> 00:40:21,174
You know and again One thing you mentioned too about knowledge is

645
00:40:21,234 --> 00:40:24,696
like, you gotta know a lot of the species and I really worked my

646
00:40:24,736 --> 00:40:27,978
whole life trying to learn all the different species I can as best I can, it's a

647
00:40:32,001 --> 00:40:36,423
That's awesome. A couple more questions before we end this. The

648
00:40:36,543 --> 00:40:40,246
first is, the way

649
00:40:40,286 --> 00:40:43,868
you describe when you find a new species, it happens so quickly,

650
00:40:44,328 --> 00:40:48,088
right? And a lot of times, unexpectedly, on the trip. You

651
00:40:48,468 --> 00:40:51,970
know why you're out there and you want to discover something, but you've already mentioned

652
00:40:51,990 --> 00:40:55,252
a couple times where Fisher's going by and he's got something and

653
00:40:55,272 --> 00:40:58,514
you're like, well, what is that? Hold on a second, can I take a look at that? All

654
00:40:58,534 --> 00:41:01,836
of a sudden you're like, oh my gosh, I don't think I've ever seen

655
00:41:01,876 --> 00:41:05,178
this before. I don't think anybody's ever seen, your colleagues are there, the grad students

656
00:41:05,198 --> 00:41:08,420
are like, wow, what is this? What's the feeling that

657
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,942
goes through your body? What are the emotions that you feel when

658
00:41:12,082 --> 00:41:15,403
all of a sudden you're on the verge, I think this is something that's

659
00:41:16,973 --> 00:41:20,316
it's kind of a mix between this absolute adrenaline rush

660
00:41:21,416 --> 00:41:24,659
and Christmas. Okay, waking up

661
00:41:25,059 --> 00:41:28,241
waking up Christmas morning is a five year old. And

662
00:41:28,281 --> 00:41:32,344
just, you know, what Santa leave me? Yeah. And,

663
00:41:32,805 --> 00:41:36,047
and then just having this, like on this, like on these trips here, it's

664
00:41:36,067 --> 00:41:39,309
like, it's like a, it's like a, it's a total

665
00:41:39,369 --> 00:41:42,652
adrenaline. It's just you're just every day, just pumped up

666
00:41:43,352 --> 00:41:46,480
to go out there. And I mean, it's kind of One of

667
00:41:46,500 --> 00:41:49,742
the comments, uh, you know, some of the students made is like, they

668
00:41:49,762 --> 00:41:52,965
were just, yeah, they found it. They thought it

669
00:41:52,985 --> 00:41:56,387
was a little bit inspiring that every day we had long, hard days

670
00:41:56,447 --> 00:41:59,510
and like every day, I'm just ready to go. Like, let's do this, man. We're going to

671
00:41:59,550 --> 00:42:02,772
go do this. And they found like, that was, they thought that was

672
00:42:02,832 --> 00:42:06,635
pretty cool considering I'm, I'm the age of most of their parents running

673
00:42:06,695 --> 00:42:09,877
around with them. And, uh, and I'm just like every day, I'm like, let's go,

674
00:42:09,997 --> 00:42:13,260
let's do this, man. You know, I was like, cause I I'll sleep in the plane when we head

675
00:42:13,660 --> 00:42:16,824
home and I've been catching up on some rest since I've

676
00:42:16,844 --> 00:42:20,788
been home. But yeah, if you can just imagine this overwhelming

677
00:42:20,828 --> 00:42:24,211
adrenaline rush combined with being a five-year-old on

678
00:42:24,251 --> 00:42:28,492
Christmas morning. That's the best way to describe it.

679
00:42:31,356 --> 00:42:34,560
And speaking of which, not calling you old,

680
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,964
but you're not as young as you were in your 20s, doing a

681
00:42:38,024 --> 00:42:41,429
trip like this for a month where every day you're going

682
00:42:41,609 --> 00:42:45,031
out, You know traveling through some

683
00:42:45,151 --> 00:42:48,371
pretty gnarly terrain Look

684
00:42:48,411 --> 00:42:52,933
at me being old and trying to use gnarly as a word describe but

685
00:42:53,953 --> 00:42:57,414
But you know like it takes a lot on the body for any anybody

686
00:42:57,454 --> 00:43:01,475
by any age you've been doing this for quite a long time But

687
00:43:01,515 --> 00:43:04,755
like going out for like a month and doing this straight, you know You're

688
00:43:04,775 --> 00:43:07,916
always meeting new people talking new people going over just

689
00:43:07,956 --> 00:43:11,117
different terrain if there's a lot to experience in

690
00:43:11,177 --> 00:43:14,699
one of those trips How do you get through

691
00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:19,523
You know at this point in your career bring young enthusiastic students

692
00:43:19,563 --> 00:43:22,766
with you And try and keep up is that

693
00:43:22,806 --> 00:43:26,109
it well, I honestly I I keep

694
00:43:26,149 --> 00:43:30,152
a pretty regimented Workout

695
00:43:30,813 --> 00:43:34,235
and sort of a health care just take care of myself in general in

696
00:43:34,295 --> 00:43:37,715
general and then I keep a pretty I work out pretty,

697
00:43:37,975 --> 00:43:41,877
pretty good for my age and I won't mention it specifically, but

698
00:43:41,937 --> 00:43:45,218
it's north of 60, let's say. And, uh, and so, but I

699
00:43:45,298 --> 00:43:49,340
39, we'll just go with an even that perfect, even maybe 40, maybe

700
00:43:49,660 --> 00:43:52,902
39 is good. Uh, no, but I, I just, it's, it's really, it's, it's

701
00:43:53,202 --> 00:43:56,963
a lot of it. A lot of it is mental. You got to have a positive attitude.

702
00:43:57,123 --> 00:44:01,085
That's why I say like, it's having this overwhelming adrenaline rush and,

703
00:44:01,385 --> 00:44:04,486
and like a kid at Christmas that, that helps you got to have

704
00:44:04,506 --> 00:44:07,744
the right mental attitude. And then I say, I just keep trying

705
00:44:07,764 --> 00:44:11,326
to keep my body in shape as best I can, you know, and

706
00:44:11,386 --> 00:44:14,847
just try to work out and just eat right. And

707
00:44:15,907 --> 00:44:19,509
so like I can, you know, my goal is always to keep up with the kids. And

708
00:44:20,029 --> 00:44:23,190
so, you know, and so if I can just, so

709
00:44:23,210 --> 00:44:26,311
that's my goal and I don't, I'm just going to keep doing it as

710
00:44:26,351 --> 00:44:29,752
long as my body holds up and I can do it. You know, my

711
00:44:29,772 --> 00:44:33,393
dad's 93 and, you know, he's still climbing

712
00:44:33,433 --> 00:44:36,751
around on the roof and doing stuff. It makes me more nervous

713
00:44:36,791 --> 00:44:39,915
than him, so if I can be 93 and

714
00:44:40,115 --> 00:44:43,619
doing that, you know, at my age now, I can still

715
00:44:43,659 --> 00:44:47,023
keep going and I'm just gonna keep going until I

716
00:44:47,063 --> 00:44:50,407
can't, you know? It's just, yeah. So that's all

717
00:44:52,779 --> 00:44:56,280
So quite the crazy

718
00:44:56,340 --> 00:44:59,620
trip, amazing trip, all the words you can

719
00:44:59,700 --> 00:45:03,401
use to describe it, the ups and downs and

720
00:45:03,921 --> 00:45:07,142
very, very interesting. Just to let everybody know, we're going

721
00:45:07,182 --> 00:45:10,362
to be able to show some more content on

722
00:45:10,382 --> 00:45:13,703
that visually. We'll have some videos out and a number of different

723
00:45:13,723 --> 00:45:16,884
episodes, not only the trip that you just went on, but the trip that you went on

724
00:45:16,924 --> 00:45:21,107
last year. We have some videos coming out. very, very shortly. And

725
00:45:21,167 --> 00:45:24,871
so keep an eye out on this podcast. We'll announce when they're

726
00:45:24,911 --> 00:45:28,074
published. We'll put up links. And so you

727
00:45:28,114 --> 00:45:31,738
can actually see what Dave experiences when

728
00:45:32,419 --> 00:45:35,622
you're on these trips. And I think it's really important for

729
00:45:35,662 --> 00:45:39,046
people to visualize the different fish markets, what it looks like, how

730
00:45:39,086 --> 00:45:42,309
you interact with people. Even some of the things you

731
00:45:42,329 --> 00:45:45,590
probably like, you may not like to see, you know, as in dead sharks or dead flat

732
00:45:45,610 --> 00:45:48,791
sharks and things. Yeah. But then you, you have to, you know, you have to

733
00:45:48,831 --> 00:45:51,972
deal with it and, and sometimes, you know, you may discover a new

734
00:45:52,012 --> 00:45:55,193
species just, just from those piles of dead sharks that

735
00:45:55,213 --> 00:45:58,395
you see. And it's, it's, it's interesting, definitely as

736
00:45:58,435 --> 00:46:01,996
a scientist and, and as you said, like, you know, a bit of an explorer.

737
00:46:03,056 --> 00:46:06,338
And so love to see that so I can't wait till we get those

738
00:46:06,398 --> 00:46:09,780
out for everybody Dave if people want to

739
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,421
you know find out you know how to Follow you you've been putting up

740
00:46:13,801 --> 00:46:17,023
a lot of cool things on Instagram lately as you normally do but about

741
00:46:17,043 --> 00:46:20,305
the trip So people want to find out how to do that

742
00:46:20,405 --> 00:46:23,986
how to follow you how would they do so Instagram's best just

743
00:46:26,407 --> 00:46:30,409
Also, you find Lost Sharks on Facebook. I

744
00:46:30,469 --> 00:46:33,790
do post on X occasionally, but mostly Instagram, Facebook, but you

745
00:46:33,810 --> 00:46:37,452
can find Lost Shark, Lost Shark Guy on, on

746
00:46:37,592 --> 00:46:40,633
X. And then also I post on LinkedIn. So any of

747
00:46:40,673 --> 00:46:44,554
the, any of the major platforms, but I would suggest go to Instagram

748
00:46:47,171 --> 00:46:51,513
Perfect. Dave, thank you so much for sharing this and

749
00:46:51,553 --> 00:46:55,535
going on these trips and being able to discover more sharks. And we thank your

750
00:46:55,615 --> 00:46:59,937
colleagues, the graduate students that went out with you, Pete Kine, everybody

751
00:47:01,057 --> 00:47:04,319
that was out on the trip with you. And I can't wait to

752
00:47:04,359 --> 00:47:08,300
hear more about it. I've already heard a lot about it, and it's always interesting,

753
00:47:08,420 --> 00:47:11,981
and I can't wait for everybody else to get to see what

754
00:47:12,021 --> 00:47:15,902
you've been able to see over the last couple of years. Just a piece of

755
00:47:15,942 --> 00:47:19,263
your career, but something that's absolutely remarkable. So

756
00:47:25,405 --> 00:47:29,326
Absolutely. How about next episode? You could co-host. How about that? Perfect. Perfect.

757
00:47:29,347 --> 00:47:32,568
I'll co-host with you. Wonderful. Thanks a lot, Dave. We'll talk to