From Skates to White Sharks: The Journey of Megan Winton

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Welcome back to another wonderful episode here on the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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On today's episode, we have Megan Winton from the Atlantic White

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Shark Organization, where she studies... White

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Sharks. She's been on Shark Week and Shark

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Fest, and she's going to be on it in 2024. And we talk

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about that a little bit, but we talk about her career and how she went from

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studying different types of sharks to studying with

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Dave just on lost sharks and

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then going back to White Sharks to finish off.

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And when she did her PhD and she just finished her PhD like a

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week before a couple of weeks, she got her confirmation

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that her defense went through with flying colors, and

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she's gonna be a doctor right now, and I think that's awesome. So

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we got to talk to her, and it's exciting. So here is the

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episode with Meghan Witton. Let's start the show. In

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the early to mid 1900s, the only thing people knew about sharks was

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that they bit people from time to time. Some scientists started to

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get to know more about the larger sharks, studying their life histories and

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their fisheries. As the field grew, so did the diversity of fields

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within shark science. Public interest in sharks grew exponentially

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as a series of movies called Jaws peaked the people's fear and curiosity

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for these sharks. More information was revealed about

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these mysterious animals as the shark science field grew. From exploration

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to discovery to genetics and ecology, the Beyond Jaws podcast will

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introduce you to shark scientists of the American Elasmobranc Society and

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their work to help you better understand these wonderful species and

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take your knowledge beyond jaws. Hey,

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everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, your co-host, Andrew Lewin, here with my

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co-host, Dr. David Ebert. Dave, we have Megan Winton on

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the program. Are you excited? Because this was one

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Megan was one of my was one of my former students, and she was an

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ace. So I tell you, she was she was one. And it's really

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for me as a being a mentor, a former advisor. She's really one

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of the rising stars in the field. I mean, she's really

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on it. She's managed. Of course, she's kind of got in the opposite direction than

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most of the students where she worked on skates in Alaska, actually for

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her master's degree with me. And then she's kind of

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went to the dark side working on white sharks, which is

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I'm very, I should be

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That was really

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good. I mean, she, she got connected and It's just, it's a whole fascinating story.

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We'll get into there and how she came to working with Greg Skomal of all places.

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Cause she went from Florida to California to new England and we'll get

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into that in the, in the, in the show, but it's a, it's

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a fascinating story. And, uh, but she, but I think the thing

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she kind of talks about is she, it was, she didn't just focus on

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white sharks. She learned a lot of skills, particularly quantitative skills,

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which led her to obtain the position she has now.

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And I couldn't be more proud of her. And as I say, she's, you know, we've had a number of

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these, young up and coming rising stars in the field. And

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she's another one that I just see big things for in the future. And I'm happy

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she finally got her PhD. I know she spent a number of

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years on it. Um, but that was, but yeah, I'm

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sure, I know it's going to be an excellent piece of work and I'm happy to be able to call another

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one of my former students, doctor. And, um, yeah.

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And, uh, yeah, so I'm like, I'm really looking forward to, to, to

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the interview today. And, um, so yeah, so let's, let's get

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And we're going to find out why it took her a little bit longer, because it's

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a little thing called side projects. We're going to find out what some of

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those are and how those can be distracting to everybody, because it's

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always great to get experience. But she did get a lot of experience. She's

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going to tell us about it in this interview. So here's the

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interview with Megan Winton. Enjoy, and we'll talk to you after. Hey,

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Megan. Welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to talk

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I love it. I love it. We want to welcome everybody to the Beyond Jaws

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podcast where we have another rising star in the shark

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world with our awesome guest Dr. Megan

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Whitten who recently just completed a PhD at

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the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth at the School of Marine

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Science and Technology. Yay! However, before embarking

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on her PhD, in full disclosure, Megan completed her

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Master's of Science degree in Marine Science at Moss Landing

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Marine Laboratories, where she was a graduate student of mine before

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going on to bigger and better things.

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Yeah. So, well, since 2019, Megan's been a research scientist for

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the Atlantic White Shark Conservancy, where she's working to improve scientific

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understanding of new white shark aggregation sites off Cape Cod,

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Massachusetts. Her research focuses on various aspects of

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fisheries biology and ecology, as well as the development of quantitative frameworks

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for interpreting and integrating tagging data into population assessments.

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Through her work on white sharks, Megan's become increasingly interested in

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the human dimensions of wildlife management and decision making. And

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in his terrific book, Greg Skomal, who was on

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our podcast last year, his book titled Chasing Shadows, My

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Life, Tracking the Great White Shark. Megan's featured extremely prominently

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in that book. Greg's been on her podcast, check

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it out. You definitely want to get that book to find out

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more, if you want to find out more about Megan, at least until she writes her own autobiography

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book. With that, Megan, we're

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super happy to have you on the show today. So

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I'll ask you, I'll start off with the question we always ask our guests is,

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how'd you get interested in marine science and in sharks in particular?

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First off, Dave, I just want to say, can you come

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introduce me for every talk ever? Because that's like the closest thing

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I've ever had to like a sports announcer being like, here

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Love it. Yeah. Anytime. Not

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That's the

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Well, it works. It's great. Most scientists don't get that kind of introduction most

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of the time, so that's pretty great. But to

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answer your question, one thing I really love about this

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field is when you get everybody's shark science origin stories,

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they're kind of all over the map. There's so many different roads that

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lead people to become a shark scientist and get interested

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in the ocean. sometimes feel a

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little embarrassed when people ask me about this, but I was actually afraid

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of sharks when I was a kid. I grew up in Florida. My

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both sets of grandparents lived in New Smyrna Beach, Florida, which

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has the distinction of being the shark bite capital of the world. So

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sharks were always kind of on the mind. And I

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have a very vivid memory. I was probably like eight

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or nine years old, but my sisters and I were swimming at the beach There

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was a guy fishing just up from us and he caught a shark and

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we all went running out of the water like, oh my gosh, how did I not just

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get eaten by a shark? I was just swimming with a shark. But

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it really sparked my curiosity and my mom got

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me books on sharks. I started reading about them and

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I just was hooked. You know, I'm so punny. But

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and I just the more and more I read about them, the more I

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kind of realized these were just fish that had gotten a really bad rap.

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And they were fascinating from a biological perspective. And,

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you know, my interest continued. I watched all the shark documentaries I

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could on TV. I used to tape them on VHS so

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I could watch them year round. And I was like, one day

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I'm going to be one of those scientists on one of those shows unraveling the

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mysteries. of sharks. And there are

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times when I honestly still kind of pinch myself,

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like, I can't believe this is actually happening. And there were

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times I think my parents thought I might outgrow this crazy

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dream I had. But it's been such a fascinating journey.

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And I honestly can't imagine myself doing anything else.

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I really love being a scientist. If you wake up every morning and you're like,

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what kind of questions am I going to tackle today? And

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then to do work that has such an applied impact because

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so many shark species are in trouble around the world, even though

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some are now making a comeback in certain areas like the white shark in

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the Northwest Atlantic. It really it's it's just such

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important work, but it also feels like such a privilege to be able

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to do it and have the opportunity to study and

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understand these animals in a way most people don't. So I feel very

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You kind of grew up, you had this whole, obviously you're pretty

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much focused when you're going through grade school, high school, like you were just, you wanted to go

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do sharks. That was pretty much your focus. So

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I'm kind of curious, you went to a school in, you

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didn't go to like University of Florida or Florida State or University

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of Miami, you went to a school in Georgia for your undergraduate degree. I'm

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You know, it's a good question. And honestly, when I look back, sometimes I

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ask myself, like, you were in Florida, why didn't you go to

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University of Florida, where there were people there doing shark

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research, because I was very much kind of like the shark girl in

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high school, I always had my big white shark tooth necklace

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on. And, you know, I remember my friends kind of making fun of me, like, you're not

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really gonna grow up and do this, are you? And I was like, no, no, But

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I got some great advice from an

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early mentor in high school who said, what you really want

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to focus on first if you want to do this kind of work is getting a

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really solid background in biology. And so

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I went to Emory University in Atlanta, which has a really strong general

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biology program. There are a whole lot of pre-med folks. But

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it was a really great program and I just had a wonderful

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experience that pushed me in a lot of ways. And it was

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at that point I learned about the importance of statistical modeling

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and math to interpreting all the data you're collecting. And

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I basically used the summers to get marine science

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experience, but I knew I wanted to go to a school that would really, really

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challenge me academically, and Emory certainly

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did. And during the school year, I worked in a primatology lab, even

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though I did not want to grow up and and

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study primates. But I knew it would be good, relevant

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experience. And I got to work in the lab of a

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very famous primatologist. His name is Franz de Waal. And

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he's done some really groundbreaking work. And I was terrified of him. Like,

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I don't think I ever really spoke two words to him when I was in the lab

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because I was just like, he was very intimidating. But

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that's one thing I really have loved about this career path is it's so

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nonlinear. And some of these jobs and things I've done along the

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way that I thought wouldn't have any applicability to growing up and

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eventually becoming a shark scientist or really relevant, awesome

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skills that I was able to apply in our

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field. So it's that's one thing, you

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know, when when students come to me and ask for advice or, you

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know, come to the folks, the other folks who work with me at the Atlantic White Shark Conservancy

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and ask for advice and are very focused on sharks, I'm like, look,

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And you never know what ways you're going to grow in those positions and

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how you'll eventually be able to apply those skills to

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ultimately do what you want to do. I mean, math and statistical modeling,

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that's how I got involved in the white shark work. It wasn't because

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Greg was just like, oh, you really like sharks, you know. He

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knew I had worked with some really awesome people with you, Dave and

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Greg Kaye. So that definitely gave me brownie points, but they

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were starting the first survey for white

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sharks in the Northwest Atlantic once Cape Cod became an

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aggregation site. And they knew I love stats

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and modeling and coding, and they basically needed a

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super nerd to join the team and,

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and lead the modeling efforts. So that's how, how

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I got to ask you, because I had this experience myself, because I had

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the same thing. I'd wanted to do sharks from the time I was five years old. So

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when you were in high school, you went and saw your guidance counselor, and they asked what you were going to

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do your senior year. And you told them, well, I'm going to go study

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In high school, the folks were very supportive. It was actually in

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college. And I won't name his name, because he was a very nice man.

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But my advisor in undergrad basically

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tried to talk me out of it. you know sharks are

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really charismatic there aren't that many people that get to study

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them you might want to set your sights a little lower and

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i was like i'm a good student like i'm a very curious person i'm super

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stubborn i think i can do this if i you know take the right path

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But he just, he was like, I don't know, you should, you should set your sights a

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little lower. And I like, I remember that moment sometimes. And

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I'm just like, I'm so glad I didn't take that advice that I followed

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through with it, knew what I wanted to do. And I didn't let him

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or anybody else really talk me out of it. Like they're bumpy road, you know,

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it can be a bumpy road. They're tough times for sure. You

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know, finding funding for different things can be a struggle, but ultimately, if

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you know that's what you want to do, it's so worth it and so rewarding.

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Did you find that when that guidance

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counselor said that, or that advisor said that, Did

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it make you think ahead, just being like, okay, what do I have

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to look out for? He probably told you, it's not a lot of pay.

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Those are the typical ones that people tell you. It's really hard to

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get into. Did you start to wonder,

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it's like, okay, do I have to network a little bit more in my

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undergraduate? Do I have to reach out to people a little bit

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more? Or did you just sort of just be like, no, no, I'm gonna continue,

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because I really love this stuff, and just go continue and hope for

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You know, I wish I could say the former. I

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just like I wasn't phased. And I get that question

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a lot from folks. They're like, have you, you

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00:14:22,973 --> 00:14:26,274
know, did you ever think you could be a shark scientist? Or

231
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did you? I guess I'm butchering my words.

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But I get that question a lot where folks will ask, like, did

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you ever grow up thinking you couldn't be a shark scientist because

234
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you're a woman? And I've had this conversation with Lisa

235
00:14:41,416 --> 00:14:44,977
Natanson and some of my other female shark science heroes,

236
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and like, honestly, it never crossed my mind that I couldn't do

237
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this. And I have my parents to thank a lot for that, they were so supportive. And

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they told me, you can grow up and be whatever you want to be and I just took it to heart.

239
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And you know, I've talked with Lisa and Hanson about this before and she was like, yeah,

240
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it never really crossed my mind either. So I feel really lucky that

241
00:15:03,030 --> 00:15:06,593
I was almost able to have some of those blinders on because

242
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I wonder if I had to call that advice to heart.

243
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Much like maybe I would have been like, oh, maybe they're right. Maybe I should

244
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I should do something else But I was a girl with a dream and I

245
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was a girl on a mission Determined

246
00:15:23,404 --> 00:15:26,786
I want it. You know, I want to you know when you were before you

247
00:15:26,826 --> 00:15:30,768
came to Moss Landing I just because I know that I just kind of Informant

248
00:15:30,788 --> 00:15:34,130
for people to know like you went and worked you went and did an

249
00:15:34,190 --> 00:15:37,432
internship with John Carlson with Noah fisheries and in

250
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Enrique's been on the podcast. John's going to be

251
00:15:47,667 --> 00:15:51,590
on the podcast coming up here soon. We're

252
00:15:51,850 --> 00:15:56,773
getting everybody. We'll get around everyone eventually. Could

253
00:15:56,813 --> 00:16:00,283
you talk about how that came about? on

254
00:16:03,065 --> 00:16:06,547
Yeah, so when I was in college, the

255
00:16:06,587 --> 00:16:10,109
summer after my junior year, I did an internship at

256
00:16:10,149 --> 00:16:14,952
Moat Marine Lab with Colin Simpendorfer and Michelle Heupel. And

257
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I just had the time of my life, it

258
00:16:18,114 --> 00:16:21,335
was like a dream come true and They are still,

259
00:16:21,355 --> 00:16:24,717
you know how you meet a lot of people you kind of worship when

260
00:16:24,757 --> 00:16:28,418
you're younger and they are great but they're not necessarily what

261
00:16:28,458 --> 00:16:31,999
you expect them to be. Colin and Michelle, I still like

262
00:16:32,059 --> 00:16:35,941
have them on a pedestal. They are such awesome humans and

263
00:16:35,961 --> 00:16:39,222
they were just so great to work with and I remember when

264
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I walked in and Colin introduced me to Michelle and

265
00:16:42,403 --> 00:16:46,686
told me they were married, I was like, What? Like shark science super

266
00:16:46,726 --> 00:16:49,749
couple. I was just so excited about it. I

267
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was like, this is amazing. So I had a great experience with

268
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them. And as that summer came to an end, I was talking with them like,

269
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where should I go next? You know, there were other options. And

270
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they recommended because I was interested in in population

271
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modeling, I had done a project with Colin that summer

272
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doing some population viability analysis for small tooth

273
00:17:12,187 --> 00:17:15,651
sawfish, which was like, So amazingly cool

274
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to do that work and see those guys

275
00:17:19,076 --> 00:17:22,861
in the flesh. And they recommended I look into the shark population assessment

276
00:17:22,921 --> 00:17:26,565
group in Panama City and consider doing

277
00:17:26,585 --> 00:17:29,709
an internship with Enrique and John. And so I applied to

278
00:17:29,729 --> 00:17:33,173
do that after I graduated. moved

279
00:17:33,213 --> 00:17:36,477
down to Panama City, Florida, stuck around for

280
00:17:36,517 --> 00:17:39,960
a while, had a great time working on their juvenile shark

281
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survey down there, and was hired by Enrique

282
00:17:43,404 --> 00:17:47,207
to put together this comprehensive shark diet database. And

283
00:17:47,588 --> 00:17:50,651
while I was there, I got to work up shark stomachs. It's still one of

284
00:17:50,691 --> 00:17:54,234
my favorite things I've ever done. I learned how to age,

285
00:17:54,774 --> 00:17:58,618
aged shark species, assess maturity. I

286
00:17:58,798 --> 00:18:02,441
just got to dissect a lot of things and I

287
00:18:02,481 --> 00:18:05,764
just had a ball. And so I was there for

288
00:18:05,824 --> 00:18:08,926
I think about a year and a half. I got to go on the

289
00:18:08,966 --> 00:18:12,269
long line survey in the Gulf of Mexico, see some big sharks

290
00:18:12,349 --> 00:18:16,172
for the first time, just blew my mind. And then they knew this guy out

291
00:18:16,232 --> 00:18:19,775
in California named Dave Ebert who was looking for

292
00:18:19,855 --> 00:18:23,318
a student. And they were like, well, you know, your contract's almost

293
00:18:23,538 --> 00:18:27,521
up. We know you're interested in pursuing a graduate degree. There's

294
00:18:27,541 --> 00:18:31,063
this guy in Central California. Have you heard of him? Dave Ebert. He's

295
00:18:31,103 --> 00:18:34,645
got some money for a student. And I was like, what? And I knew, you

296
00:18:34,685 --> 00:18:37,988
know, of your work and was so excited because I

297
00:18:38,028 --> 00:18:41,350
knew you were really into deep sea sharks and and lost

298
00:18:41,370 --> 00:18:45,312
sharks. And I love those guys, too. And

299
00:18:45,533 --> 00:18:49,536
I was like, yeah, I'd love to check out the West Coast. And so That's

300
00:18:49,596 --> 00:18:52,862
been one thing that I have loved so much about my career is one

301
00:18:52,902 --> 00:18:56,229
thing has just led into another in just

302
00:18:56,329 --> 00:18:59,897
different ways. I've

303
00:18:59,957 --> 00:19:03,338
set off, moved to California, moved to Moss

304
00:19:03,398 --> 00:19:07,018
Landing. And I remember my,

305
00:19:07,458 --> 00:19:11,199
you know, I didn't go out and we talked on the phone, Dave. You

306
00:19:11,239 --> 00:19:14,520
know, I didn't go out and do an in-person interview because I just, I'm

307
00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,920
one of those people. I'm like, all right, this is the next thing. Let's just go. Let's just do

308
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,221
this and see where it leads you. And then I showed

309
00:19:21,301 --> 00:19:24,482
up for orientation. I think I still was dying my hair

310
00:19:26,542 --> 00:19:29,609
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Why not? We're going to get into that in

311
00:19:37,181 --> 00:19:40,383
I had bright red hair and I showed up for orientation and I

312
00:19:40,404 --> 00:19:43,886
just was like so excited, but so terrified. And

313
00:19:43,906 --> 00:19:47,509
then I met you in person and then we had orientation and

314
00:19:47,529 --> 00:19:50,892
then Greg Kaye walked in and I like worshiped his

315
00:19:51,012 --> 00:19:54,394
work and I just couldn't believe, like I was so afraid, but everybody was

316
00:19:54,434 --> 00:19:57,917
so wonderful and so welcoming and so lovely.

317
00:19:57,997 --> 00:20:01,139
And I just like, those were some of the, I was there

318
00:20:04,602 --> 00:20:08,265
That's awesome. I just have a quick question before

319
00:20:08,285 --> 00:20:11,868
we get into the work with Dave. You went, you

320
00:20:11,908 --> 00:20:15,331
know, with the contract, you were looking at dissecting a lot of different sharks, big

321
00:20:15,351 --> 00:20:18,914
sharks, small sharks, you know, got a lot of experience in

322
00:20:18,954 --> 00:20:22,056
terms of field studies, in terms of, you know, just skills and

323
00:20:22,096 --> 00:20:26,099
experience in the lab as well as in the field. And

324
00:20:26,139 --> 00:20:29,462
then you have this opportunity to go towards like deep sea sharks

325
00:20:29,542 --> 00:20:32,700
and lost sharks. You seem like

326
00:20:32,740 --> 00:20:36,382
at this point in your life, you seem to still try and find what

327
00:20:36,442 --> 00:20:39,763
you want, especially. Because in the shark, I'm not a

328
00:20:39,803 --> 00:20:43,044
shark scientist per se. But I feel

329
00:20:43,084 --> 00:20:46,425
like there's categories of people who, some people like

330
00:20:46,445 --> 00:20:49,646
to study the bigger sharks. You get the people who like to study the deep sea

331
00:20:49,686 --> 00:20:53,267
and the lost sharks and things like that. You seem to just be enamored

332
00:20:53,287 --> 00:20:56,788
by all of the different types of sharks at this point in your career and

333
00:20:56,808 --> 00:21:00,029
just being like, hey, this looks really interesting. Let me

334
00:21:00,049 --> 00:21:03,490
try this. Again, were you just going

335
00:21:03,510 --> 00:21:06,871
because this was an opportunity, or were you thinking ahead of being like, what type

336
00:21:06,911 --> 00:21:10,112
of shark scientist do I want to be? Or again, did you just not care, and you're like,

337
00:21:11,692 --> 00:21:15,133
It was a little bit of both. In the back of my mind,

338
00:21:15,533 --> 00:21:19,894
I knew I wanted to do population

339
00:21:19,914 --> 00:21:23,735
modeling, because from a conservation and management perspective,

340
00:21:23,815 --> 00:21:27,436
that to me was so important. And Enrique was a great mentor

341
00:21:27,476 --> 00:21:31,183
in that regard. But one thing he said to me is, You

342
00:21:31,223 --> 00:21:34,365
know, he attends all these meetings, runs all these

343
00:21:34,385 --> 00:21:38,067
stock assessments. And he was like, some of these stock assessment scientists are

344
00:21:38,127 --> 00:21:41,569
so smart. They're so good with numbers, but they're terrible with fish.

345
00:21:42,029 --> 00:21:45,371
So he recommended I get more hands on

346
00:21:45,531 --> 00:21:49,713
experience in terms of biology of the species, learning

347
00:21:49,753 --> 00:21:53,115
about their reproductive characteristics and

348
00:21:53,295 --> 00:21:57,097
age and growth firsthand. And Dave and Greg both

349
00:21:57,157 --> 00:22:00,378
had so much experience with that. But it is also a

350
00:22:00,418 --> 00:22:03,900
little bit, I am like a kid in a candy store, still to this day.

351
00:22:04,220 --> 00:22:07,342
Part of the reason my PhD took me so long is because I'm the

352
00:22:07,382 --> 00:22:10,643
queen of side projects. I'd have somebody just come

353
00:22:10,683 --> 00:22:14,325
in, do you want to analyze this data or do you want to do something like this? And I'd be like, yeah,

354
00:22:14,345 --> 00:22:18,206
and I'd go talk to my PhD advisor, Dr.

355
00:22:18,246 --> 00:22:21,388
Gavin Fay, and he'd be like, is this really like the best use of your

356
00:22:21,428 --> 00:22:25,330
time? But I was just like, this is the time for me to explore all

357
00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:29,352
the things. So I just genuinely get so excited

358
00:22:29,412 --> 00:22:32,635
and carried away on the science front of things. And honestly, that's

359
00:22:32,715 --> 00:22:36,237
one of the biggest struggles for me in my job right now. I

360
00:22:36,938 --> 00:22:41,041
love white sharks. I love studying them. They're amazing. But because

361
00:22:41,915 --> 00:22:45,096
We're such a small team and all of this stuff has happened so

362
00:22:45,216 --> 00:22:48,397
quickly off the coast of Massachusetts. We're really focused on

363
00:22:48,437 --> 00:22:51,798
that one species right now. But there's so many other

364
00:22:51,858 --> 00:22:55,239
interesting species around here. So I still have that kid

365
00:22:55,339 --> 00:22:58,560
in a candy store vibe all the time, but I've gotten a little bit

366
00:23:06,755 --> 00:23:10,197
Like, I mean, when I went to Moss Landing, one of my first days, Dave,

367
00:23:10,278 --> 00:23:13,680
you took me in the museum, and you just had all these species I had dreamed

368
00:23:14,741 --> 00:23:18,324
And I was just like, what? Like, it was so,

369
00:23:19,585 --> 00:23:22,687
Yeah, I just want to share a little insight. Like, you know, Megan talked about some

370
00:23:22,707 --> 00:23:26,090
of the people she'd worked with, like Colin Simpfendorfer, and

371
00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:30,193
Michelle Heipel, and Enrique Cortez, and John Carlson, and that. Any

372
00:23:30,233 --> 00:23:33,455
of you that are in the shark field, if you're a young student coming up, keep in

373
00:23:33,495 --> 00:23:36,937
mind that we all know each other. And so like when I get somebody like

374
00:23:36,977 --> 00:23:40,078
an application like Megan's, and I see, oh, I see some names in

375
00:23:40,118 --> 00:23:43,379
here I recognize, there's a phone call will take place that she'll

376
00:23:43,399 --> 00:23:46,701
never, you'll never hear about, but that is like, it's like, well, what

377
00:23:47,021 --> 00:23:50,142
do you think of Megan? Outstanding, you'd be an idiot not to take her.

378
00:23:50,362 --> 00:23:54,444
Okay, well, Megan's coming to Moss Landing. And so, so

379
00:23:54,584 --> 00:23:57,845
I'm telling this, I'm sharing this with people, young students listening to

380
00:23:57,885 --> 00:24:00,966
this, that when you're doing these internships, do the

381
00:24:01,006 --> 00:24:04,135
best you can because that's, That's a lot of times gonna be your

382
00:24:04,195 --> 00:24:07,618
best way to get in. It'll be some phone call or a talk with somebody

383
00:24:08,098 --> 00:24:11,360
in the field, because again, it's a small field. We all know each other. Most

384
00:24:11,380 --> 00:24:14,743
of us kind of went to grad school. We're all in grad school at the same time

385
00:24:14,783 --> 00:24:18,645
or roughly. But it's a good way. You do a good job. It gives

386
00:24:20,146 --> 00:24:23,289
you that little edge over somebody else. And certainly with Megan, like I

387
00:24:23,309 --> 00:24:27,552
said, I got something along the lines of I've got to be an idiot not to take Megan. So besides

388
00:24:27,592 --> 00:24:31,294
her outstanding application, having that little extra encouragement from

389
00:24:31,354 --> 00:24:34,838
my Florida friends, was really helpful at the time. And,

390
00:24:35,118 --> 00:24:38,320
um, yeah, it was never a regret. Megan got, as she said, she

391
00:24:38,340 --> 00:24:41,943
got into a lot of stuff when she came out there. We learned a heck of a lot. And, and

392
00:24:41,963 --> 00:24:45,386
just so people know, cause people like to hear me talk about lost sharks

393
00:24:45,446 --> 00:24:48,869
or charismatic stuff. Megan worked on a, on a skates that occur from

394
00:24:48,929 --> 00:24:52,151
Alaska, from the Bering sea down to California, looking at

395
00:24:52,231 --> 00:24:55,354
different populations and comparing age and

396
00:24:55,394 --> 00:24:59,177
growth and, and, and, and population, uh, dynamics

397
00:24:59,197 --> 00:25:02,998
for there, which really had a lot of implications for, for for

398
00:25:03,078 --> 00:25:06,720
management, which I believe you're now applying to your current position, looking

399
00:25:07,881 --> 00:25:11,102
It's true. Very true. Don't sell

400
00:25:13,244 --> 00:25:16,645
Oh, no. I never do. They're awesome. They're absolutely

401
00:25:16,725 --> 00:25:19,907
awesome. I just can't figure out

402
00:25:19,927 --> 00:25:23,509
where I went wrong, that you left doing skates and all these really cool deep

403
00:25:23,549 --> 00:25:26,771
sea sharks, and then the next thing I know you're doing white sharks. It's like, my

404
00:25:26,791 --> 00:25:30,493
God, you're doing white sharks now? One thing

405
00:25:30,553 --> 00:25:35,802
just leads to another. Well,

406
00:25:35,822 --> 00:25:39,043
you know, I don't know if you know this or not, but I know I've

407
00:25:39,063 --> 00:25:42,324
talked to a few other people, but my first paper was on the age

408
00:25:42,364 --> 00:25:45,665
and growth of the white shark when I was a grad student. That was my first

409
00:25:45,725 --> 00:25:48,946
papers on white shark and Lisa Natanson as well. We're both

410
00:25:49,006 --> 00:25:52,127
cohorts there. So I went the opposite way. I did white sharks, then

411
00:25:52,147 --> 00:25:55,525
I went off and did all these other cool sharks. You did all these other really cool

412
00:25:57,626 --> 00:26:01,289
There's some to be said for timing. Timing influences careers

413
00:26:05,517 --> 00:26:09,339
But I love that it is so true what you were just saying about how small

414
00:26:09,399 --> 00:26:13,421
the field is. I don't think I fully appreciated that

415
00:26:13,561 --> 00:26:17,162
when I was getting into this world. I remember reading

416
00:26:17,242 --> 00:26:20,504
papers and seeing the same names over and over again. But I was like, oh, these

417
00:26:20,824 --> 00:26:24,165
are super productive scientists. And they totally were.

418
00:26:24,545 --> 00:26:28,107
But then you get into the field and you're like, wow, it is tiny,

419
00:26:28,167 --> 00:26:31,529
which is wonderful in so many ways because you have these

420
00:26:31,689 --> 00:26:35,315
awesome relationships with people throughout your career. and

421
00:26:35,335 --> 00:26:38,898
they build in and add to your work in different ways along

422
00:26:38,938 --> 00:26:42,680
the way. But it's also kind of a, it's a blessing and a curse situation, because

423
00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:46,303
then they've seen you go through all your phases, you know, you start grad school,

424
00:26:46,843 --> 00:26:50,286
usually, you know, when you're pretty young, and you're still like, you know, figuring

425
00:26:50,326 --> 00:26:53,548
yourself out. And so all those things, you know, it's kind of like this big

426
00:26:53,628 --> 00:26:57,070
shark family. But you know, they remember those things, they

427
00:27:04,068 --> 00:27:07,689
Well, I remember, well, the other thing I'll share too is when it is

428
00:27:07,729 --> 00:27:11,010
that after you first came out there and you met, obviously you and I met and

429
00:27:11,030 --> 00:27:14,170
then you met, met with Greg and as your hair was red, I

430
00:27:14,190 --> 00:27:17,351
think you mentioned at the time. And I just remember like after you left the office there,

431
00:27:17,371 --> 00:27:20,492
Greg looks at me and he goes, red hair. And I'm like, don't worry, she'll be

432
00:27:20,532 --> 00:27:25,037
great, Greg. She'll be awesome and stuff. He was just like, I

433
00:27:25,077 --> 00:27:28,579
say red hair. It was like, it wasn't a red head. It was like red hair.

434
00:27:34,784 --> 00:27:37,886
And he had a, it was always, I mean, I, it was great having a

435
00:27:37,926 --> 00:27:41,188
lab. Cause I never knew like from, you know, week to week, whatever month,

436
00:27:41,208 --> 00:27:44,410
the month, what color hair you'd show up with and stuff. And, Being

437
00:27:44,430 --> 00:27:48,012
from California, I'm just kind of used to it. It's like, oh, we got the Rainbow Coalition going

438
00:27:48,032 --> 00:27:51,813
here with Megan. It was

439
00:27:51,893 --> 00:27:56,715
my rainbow bright face.

440
00:27:56,795 --> 00:28:00,037
Absolutely. In fact, I think you were there at least a year, year and a half.

441
00:28:00,117 --> 00:28:03,398
I remember one day at one of our meetings, I just said, what color is

442
00:28:03,438 --> 00:28:06,519
your hair really? Because I had no idea what color your

443
00:28:06,599 --> 00:28:10,501
hair was.

444
00:28:13,588 --> 00:28:16,911
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so so you went out so you went out to

445
00:28:16,931 --> 00:28:20,794
Well, I think one of the things I wanted to add into is like now part

446
00:28:20,834 --> 00:28:23,936
of when you're working with me I had you go back to

447
00:28:23,976 --> 00:28:27,439
work with Lisa Natanson in Rhode Island to

448
00:28:27,459 --> 00:28:30,762
work on age aging and aging and aging vertebrae really because

449
00:28:30,802 --> 00:28:34,024
Lisa was really like the Goddess queen of aging at

450
00:28:34,064 --> 00:28:38,287
that point in time. Yeah, she was the go-to person And

451
00:28:38,368 --> 00:28:41,572
so once you pick up how that helped that kind of led to your

452
00:28:44,473 --> 00:28:47,795
Yeah, I mean, that was such a great experience. And I think back

453
00:28:47,875 --> 00:28:51,456
on that, and I'm like, what an amazing human Lisa is

454
00:28:51,556 --> 00:28:55,357
to just, I mean, it wasn't just Kelsey and I, before

455
00:28:55,538 --> 00:28:58,799
us, it was Jasmine and Shara, who she just,

456
00:28:59,379 --> 00:29:02,800
she had never met us. She just let us come in and invade her home

457
00:29:07,276 --> 00:29:10,797
At her house. I mean, how incredible. I honestly, I

458
00:29:10,817 --> 00:29:14,539
didn't think I would do that. I'd be like, I need

459
00:29:14,559 --> 00:29:18,586
a break from you guys at the end of the day. Go! She

460
00:29:18,626 --> 00:29:21,788
was so awesome and we learned so much from her

461
00:29:21,928 --> 00:29:25,790
and she just is such a meticulous phenomenally

462
00:29:26,191 --> 00:29:29,472
Productive scientist that it was I learned

463
00:29:29,533 --> 00:29:33,875
so much from her in those those three weeks And

464
00:29:33,975 --> 00:29:37,257
I felt so fortunate to have that opportunity Yeah, well you

465
00:29:37,277 --> 00:29:40,639
mentioned to like you when you went back there when it's had you go back you went back with

466
00:29:43,218 --> 00:29:46,379
And she went on and became a student of Lisa's. So

467
00:29:46,439 --> 00:29:49,861
both of you ended up going on and doing your PhD in New England

468
00:29:50,201 --> 00:29:53,622
kind of after going and spending three weeks with Lisa. So

469
00:29:54,723 --> 00:29:58,004
I looked at that as a positive and kind of coming out

470
00:29:58,024 --> 00:30:01,446
of it really having two students. And you came, you both, you came on after

471
00:30:01,546 --> 00:30:05,507
Shara Ainsley and Jasmine Maurer

472
00:30:05,547 --> 00:30:08,909
went back there. And Lisa actually moved, I think partly moved to,

473
00:30:08,929 --> 00:30:13,299
eventually moved, retired, moved to Alaska because Jasmine

474
00:30:13,319 --> 00:30:16,421
because she lives down the street from Jasmine now, so it's kind of

475
00:30:16,441 --> 00:30:19,584
an interesting I've kind of saying all this just so everybody understands kind of the

476
00:30:20,184 --> 00:30:23,327
web of this whole once you get in the shark world here It's kind of like a

477
00:30:23,907 --> 00:30:27,270
it's like a web you just kind of get entangled in there and as I say everybody knows

478
00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:31,573
everybody and you never know what connections might lead to something something

479
00:30:31,613 --> 00:30:34,755
good like a PhD program or or

480
00:30:46,580 --> 00:30:50,845
When we went to Lisa's, I think it was February, and

481
00:30:50,885 --> 00:30:54,588
there was a snowstorm and she was away. She'd gone to Sable Island

482
00:30:54,608 --> 00:30:58,412
to go on some awesome Lisa adventure. And she

483
00:30:58,452 --> 00:31:01,576
was like, OK, clear the snow. And, you know, and

484
00:31:01,596 --> 00:31:05,120
we were like, OK. And we went out and she's from California, born

485
00:31:05,180 --> 00:31:08,404
and raised, is back there now. And her and I, we did what we

486
00:31:08,424 --> 00:31:12,109
thought was shoveling. And we were like, good job. Let's go play in the snow. Let's

487
00:31:12,149 --> 00:31:15,633
go sit on this frozen lake. And then Lisa gets back and

488
00:31:15,853 --> 00:31:19,301
she's like, what is this? And we were like, what, what?

489
00:31:19,401 --> 00:31:23,064
We cleared the snow. And she was like, no. She was like, it's all frozen now.

490
00:31:23,485 --> 00:31:28,008
This is terrible. And we were like, what? We

491
00:31:28,028 --> 00:31:31,431
just had no idea. And that was a

492
00:31:31,491 --> 00:31:36,475
moment of a little bit of tension, but she forgave us for it. I

493
00:31:37,615 --> 00:31:40,917
was like, I'm so sorry, I'm from Florida, but when

494
00:31:41,157 --> 00:31:44,780
I decided to get into this field, I honestly thought

495
00:31:45,140 --> 00:31:48,882
at this point in my life I'd be living on a tropical island, probably scuba

496
00:31:48,902 --> 00:31:52,278
diving. And I

497
00:31:52,318 --> 00:31:56,501
have to seem somehow to move progressively further and further north,

498
00:31:58,322 --> 00:32:01,504
which is fine. But this winter was great. I got to

499
00:32:01,544 --> 00:32:04,706
spend a lot of time down south doing some

500
00:32:04,726 --> 00:32:08,949
field work down there, which was good. Nice, nice. that

501
00:32:08,969 --> 00:32:12,152
I was going to end up in Massachusetts, I would have thought you were

502
00:32:12,192 --> 00:32:15,676
crazy. If you had told me I was going to end up in Massachusetts studying white sharks,

503
00:32:15,836 --> 00:32:19,119
I would have thought you were out of your mind. I would have been like, no, I

504
00:32:19,139 --> 00:32:22,563
got to go to California or South Africa or Australia if

505
00:32:25,565 --> 00:32:29,029
What did you think you were going to study after all the schooling and everything?

506
00:32:29,688 --> 00:32:32,890
You know, I think for a while there, I thought I was going to become a

507
00:32:32,930 --> 00:32:36,471
stock assessment scientist. And I still love that side

508
00:32:36,511 --> 00:32:39,793
of the work. But one thing I really love about my

509
00:32:39,853 --> 00:32:43,295
job is I get to do the quantitative work, but I also still

510
00:32:43,315 --> 00:32:46,496
get to study these animals and learn about their

511
00:32:46,536 --> 00:32:49,958
biology and think about their behavior. So I get to put all these things

512
00:32:50,018 --> 00:32:53,200
together in my role now, where a lot

513
00:32:53,220 --> 00:32:56,421
of times the further along you go, the more focused you

514
00:32:56,501 --> 00:32:59,744
have to become. And I feel really lucky that I still

515
00:32:59,784 --> 00:33:02,947
get to ask all these sorts of questions. And

516
00:33:02,987 --> 00:33:07,050
it's really kind of a crazy situation to be

517
00:33:07,070 --> 00:33:10,734
in as somebody who grew up as kind of a fish scientist in

518
00:33:10,794 --> 00:33:14,337
general, because we kind of know these

519
00:33:14,457 --> 00:33:17,900
individuals at this point, because so many of these white sharks are coming back

520
00:33:17,940 --> 00:33:21,603
to Cape Cod year after year. we actually maintained the

521
00:33:21,643 --> 00:33:24,926
white shark catalog for the Northwest Atlantic at

522
00:33:24,966 --> 00:33:28,348
the Conservancy. And we started that work as part of this this

523
00:33:28,408 --> 00:33:32,411
big photographic mark recapture study that Greg

524
00:33:32,431 --> 00:33:36,594
Skomal and John Chisholm started back in

525
00:33:36,754 --> 00:33:40,096
2014 as Cape Cod was just emerging as this white shark hotspot. But

526
00:33:40,116 --> 00:33:43,359
so it's wild to me that now we have sharks that come back year

527
00:33:43,479 --> 00:33:46,881
after year and we're able to follow the same individual over

528
00:33:46,921 --> 00:33:50,293
time, not just with tagging technology, but also

529
00:33:50,554 --> 00:33:53,877
visually and we're able to get observations of them,

530
00:33:53,897 --> 00:33:57,320
you know, learn more about how they grow, you know,

531
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,283
or how slowly they grow or appear not to grow at all, based

532
00:34:01,363 --> 00:34:05,026
on what we've seen there, but we're learning more about, you

533
00:34:05,066 --> 00:34:08,449
know, different sorts of injuries and

534
00:34:08,489 --> 00:34:11,850
maybe threats to the population that we weren't really aware of. Something we've

535
00:34:11,890 --> 00:34:15,072
gotten a big appreciation for over the past couple of years is

536
00:34:15,112 --> 00:34:18,414
the number of white sharks that we observe that have evidence of

537
00:34:18,454 --> 00:34:21,496
boat strike wounds, which, you know, isn't really on a lot of

538
00:34:21,556 --> 00:34:24,817
people's radars in terms of what might be an issue for

539
00:34:25,158 --> 00:34:28,940
white sharks right now. But it's been, I mean, it's just been, basically,

540
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,362
I just have been kind of, I don't want to say holding on

541
00:34:32,402 --> 00:34:35,684
for dear life, but it has been quite a ride ever since

542
00:34:35,744 --> 00:34:38,927
I started my PhD because I just arrived on

543
00:34:38,987 --> 00:34:42,370
the scene right as all of this was unfolding off

544
00:34:42,390 --> 00:34:46,333
the coast of Cape Cod. And now we are seeing

545
00:34:46,874 --> 00:34:50,017
increases in white sharks up and down the east coast of the US.

546
00:34:50,057 --> 00:34:53,540
So folks are seeing them in Canada. We're working with a lot of awesome scientists in

547
00:34:53,580 --> 00:34:57,222
Canada down in Florida, Gulf of Mexico. We

548
00:34:57,242 --> 00:35:00,944
work with a charter captain out of South Carolina who has figured

549
00:35:01,004 --> 00:35:04,466
sharks out down there and it's been such a privilege to

550
00:35:04,506 --> 00:35:07,727
work with him. Yeah, I got to do a couple trips with him this

551
00:35:07,787 --> 00:35:11,239
winter and we tagged one big, big

552
00:35:11,319 --> 00:35:14,803
female white shark in December. Her nickname is Lee Beth. And

553
00:35:15,023 --> 00:35:18,106
she went all the way to Mexico. She got a spot tag. She got the

554
00:35:18,146 --> 00:35:21,309
first camera tag in the southeast. Wow. She's been all over

555
00:35:21,349 --> 00:35:25,213
the place. And she just recently pinged in off Cape Cod. And

556
00:35:25,373 --> 00:35:28,697
I texted, his name is Chip Michaelove. And I was like, she's coming to see me.

557
00:35:29,377 --> 00:35:32,960
And then she veered off and it looks like she was on a trajectory for

558
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,343
Nova Scotia. But some of these things are just like

559
00:35:36,583 --> 00:35:39,866
unfolding at such a crazy pace. And it's just been a

560
00:35:39,926 --> 00:35:43,589
joy to be a part of the ride. And like last summer, we went to Long

561
00:35:43,689 --> 00:35:46,951
Island to work with Toby Curtis and Greg Metzger and

562
00:35:46,991 --> 00:35:50,474
Harley Newton, who have been studying the White Shark Nursery

563
00:35:50,554 --> 00:35:53,844
site there. for years and to me to go

564
00:35:53,884 --> 00:35:57,167
there it was I'm a big shark science history buff

565
00:35:57,207 --> 00:36:00,610
too I love all the old literature and stories and

566
00:36:01,151 --> 00:36:05,015
for those of you who might not be aware that area

567
00:36:05,135 --> 00:36:09,078
off of Long Island in northern New Jersey was documented as

568
00:36:09,579 --> 00:36:13,382
as a nursery site for white sharks back

569
00:36:13,462 --> 00:36:16,844
in the first paper that came out on it was in the 1980s by Jack Casey

570
00:36:16,884 --> 00:36:20,106
and Wes Pratt. And so to get to be a part of kind

571
00:36:20,126 --> 00:36:23,308
of that scientific history that, I

572
00:36:23,348 --> 00:36:26,690
mean, I just like, I can't even explain how much it

573
00:36:26,950 --> 00:36:31,453
means to me. And when I was just on a family

574
00:36:31,513 --> 00:36:34,695
reunion and talking to my niece and nephew who are about the

575
00:36:34,795 --> 00:36:37,937
age I was when I got interested in all this, they were, one

576
00:36:37,977 --> 00:36:41,298
of them said to me, they were like, I can't believe that you like actually

577
00:36:41,338 --> 00:36:44,539
grew up what you to be what you wanted to be. And it kind

578
00:36:44,559 --> 00:36:48,620
of made me think about it, because you can get so focused on the work sometimes

579
00:36:48,660 --> 00:36:52,120
that you almost can forget that that

580
00:36:52,180 --> 00:36:55,661
road to how you got here. So it's it's just like

581
00:36:55,701 --> 00:36:58,881
I said earlier, it's such a privilege to be able to do this and be a

582
00:37:01,422 --> 00:37:04,722
You know, it's interesting, Megan, you started up there to

583
00:37:04,822 --> 00:37:08,523
kind of like you said, they were kind of the right time where the white shark population seems

584
00:37:08,563 --> 00:37:11,804
to be increasing and do you think it's increasing or

585
00:37:14,024 --> 00:37:17,405
It's such a great question. It's definitely a little bit of both

586
00:37:18,105 --> 00:37:21,486
because anytime somebody sees a white shark they're

587
00:37:21,506 --> 00:37:25,026
going to take a video of it or a picture of it with their camera because everybody's got

588
00:37:25,046 --> 00:37:28,887
a phone at all times now and then they're going to post it to social media

589
00:37:28,987 --> 00:37:32,448
and it's going to go wild and we're going to hear about it But

590
00:37:32,588 --> 00:37:36,190
at this point, they've had decades of protections and

591
00:37:36,791 --> 00:37:40,153
those management measures that were put into place in the 90s do seem

592
00:37:40,193 --> 00:37:43,455
to be bearing fruit. It also has to do with management measures that

593
00:37:43,495 --> 00:37:47,177
were put into place for seals and other marine mammals because off

594
00:37:47,217 --> 00:37:51,199
of the Cape, seals

595
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,641
never used to be a thing. When you talk to people who lived on

596
00:37:54,681 --> 00:37:57,942
Cape Cod in the 1980s and 90s, like they would

597
00:37:57,982 --> 00:38:01,164
go to the beach, they would never see a seal. Sharks were not on

598
00:38:01,184 --> 00:38:04,625
their mind at all. And then the gray seal

599
00:38:04,665 --> 00:38:07,826
population started to make a recovery. And

600
00:38:07,906 --> 00:38:11,127
now you have a hard time, you know, if you go to the beach on Cape Cod, you

601
00:38:11,147 --> 00:38:14,388
have a hard time not seeing a seal. And so it's been

602
00:38:14,408 --> 00:38:17,810
a period of really rapid change for the community. So it's

603
00:38:17,990 --> 00:38:21,412
one part the food source is back, and

604
00:38:21,432 --> 00:38:24,634
the sharks are coming here to take advantage of that, but there

605
00:38:24,674 --> 00:38:28,037
are also really strong indications that the white shark

606
00:38:28,057 --> 00:38:31,419
population itself is making a comeback, even though we don't have

607
00:38:31,559 --> 00:38:34,842
great historical data for them. That's

608
00:38:36,463 --> 00:38:39,665
Do you keep, do you correspond, because we're seeing the same thing

609
00:38:39,705 --> 00:38:42,788
here in California, where the white shark population just seems to be

610
00:38:42,848 --> 00:38:46,270
exploding, and I've been doing a lot of media lately,

611
00:38:46,290 --> 00:38:49,717
because we see all these sharks here, white sharks, in

612
00:38:50,037 --> 00:38:53,819
Monterey Bay and which they weren't. Well,

613
00:38:54,060 --> 00:38:57,341
the larger ones have been around, but those small ones we're seeing now, those were

614
00:38:57,381 --> 00:39:01,003
not around back when you were a grad student or whatever, 12, 15 years

615
00:39:01,063 --> 00:39:05,806
ago. They were not around then, but since 2014, they've

616
00:39:05,846 --> 00:39:09,928
just, they've just exploded out here. And,

617
00:39:10,248 --> 00:39:13,390
um, I mean, I, there've been, you've probably picked up in the news. They've

618
00:39:13,410 --> 00:39:16,812
been, you know, the guys will go up and I've been up in the helicopter too. You get tired.

619
00:39:17,303 --> 00:39:20,785
You literally get tired of counting them. You get up to, I get up to like 40 and

620
00:39:20,805 --> 00:39:24,087
I just stopped counting. There's just so many and they're all like six, eight

621
00:39:24,147 --> 00:39:27,489
foot and they're right off popular beaches. They're like literally

622
00:39:27,549 --> 00:39:31,031
in back of the surf break. You see, you know, people laying on the beach, people

623
00:39:31,071 --> 00:39:34,253
playing in the surf, boogie boarding, and they don't realize there's like

624
00:39:34,273 --> 00:39:38,215
a half a dozen white sharks, like, you know, less than a hundred meters from them. Um,

625
00:39:38,235 --> 00:39:41,377
just in back of the surf break. And I, have you, have you, do

626
00:39:41,397 --> 00:39:44,698
you, of course, do you guys keep in touch with like Chris Lowe and some of the guys doing

627
00:39:44,738 --> 00:39:48,083
stuff here to kind of compare the two coasts, what's going

628
00:39:48,703 --> 00:39:52,146
Yes, definitely. So there was a White

629
00:39:52,166 --> 00:39:55,469
Sharks Global Conference in November in Australia, and a lot

630
00:39:55,489 --> 00:39:59,372
of folks were there. Chris Lowe's whole group was there, but we definitely

631
00:39:59,392 --> 00:40:02,675
are all chatting as much as we can. The hard

632
00:40:02,695 --> 00:40:06,178
thing about it is In all these areas, it's very

633
00:40:06,278 --> 00:40:09,641
few people who are focused on studying that species and

634
00:40:09,782 --> 00:40:13,345
everybody's super busy. But we're always, you know, making

635
00:40:13,405 --> 00:40:16,669
comparisons, seeing what works for different groups and

636
00:40:16,729 --> 00:40:19,912
what hasn't worked. Chris Lowe's group has been great for kind

637
00:40:19,932 --> 00:40:23,315
of setting the standard on how to provide information to the public at

638
00:40:23,355 --> 00:40:26,777
the beaches. So they've got their shark smart booths and

639
00:40:26,917 --> 00:40:30,577
we now do the same on Cape Cod just to be there to provide information

640
00:40:30,637 --> 00:40:34,178
to the public. Because like you mentioned, a lot of folks have

641
00:40:34,258 --> 00:40:38,159
no idea they're going to a beach and there could be all these sharks right

642
00:40:38,199 --> 00:40:41,440
off the shore. We have this happen all the time off Cape Cod. We'll go to the beach,

643
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,721
we'll be flying a drought or doing some kind of research or

644
00:40:45,061 --> 00:40:48,442
manning one of our shark smart booths. And we'll have people

645
00:40:48,482 --> 00:40:51,783
come up to us and they'll be like, oh, we know they're here. We've heard about it on the news, but

646
00:40:51,803 --> 00:40:55,304
they're like way offshore. White sharks don't come this close to shore, right? And

647
00:40:55,324 --> 00:40:59,066
we're like, no, no, they hunt for seals right off the beaches. And

648
00:40:59,146 --> 00:41:02,827
it always blows their mind. I have to say, Dave, I

649
00:41:03,148 --> 00:41:06,409
feel a little left out of the Central California white

650
00:41:06,429 --> 00:41:09,650
shark scene right now because Aptos, that was

651
00:41:09,690 --> 00:41:12,871
my neighborhood where people are seeing all these white sharks. Like

652
00:41:12,891 --> 00:41:16,314
that was where I would go. running down that beach

653
00:41:16,434 --> 00:41:20,599
and sit on that cliff every evening.

654
00:41:20,799 --> 00:41:24,003
And I just, I'm like, I can't believe I'm missing it. In a lot of

655
00:41:24,023 --> 00:41:27,587
ways, I almost feel like I was fated to study white sharks because

656
00:41:27,627 --> 00:41:31,031
I grew up in Jacksonville, Florida, had no

657
00:41:31,171 --> 00:41:34,534
idea that they were there in the winter.

658
00:41:36,477 --> 00:41:39,861
moved to Panama City after college. Now there

659
00:41:39,901 --> 00:41:43,125
are a lot of land-based guys catching sharks there. We're learning more about

660
00:41:43,165 --> 00:41:46,429
how important the Gulf of Mexico is to them

661
00:41:46,489 --> 00:41:49,713
as part of their overwintering range through a lot of the tagging work that's been done,

662
00:41:49,753 --> 00:41:53,177
but also thanks to citizen scientists who are tagging us

663
00:41:53,237 --> 00:41:57,710
in posts when they see them and sending us information. So,

664
00:41:57,830 --> 00:42:01,331
you know, Panama City, they were swimming right past me there. Aptos,

665
00:42:01,672 --> 00:42:05,613
Central California, I knew was a white shark hotspot.

666
00:42:05,973 --> 00:42:10,014
And I thought I'd see one when I was there. But all I ever saw was a bitten elephant

667
00:42:10,074 --> 00:42:13,975
seal. Um, but you know, they were there now Massachusetts,

668
00:42:13,995 --> 00:42:17,236
but like, it's all been so full circle, in a way, so

669
00:42:17,496 --> 00:42:20,617
much so that one of the PSATs, one of

670
00:42:20,657 --> 00:42:23,998
the satellite tags that the charter captain we work with

671
00:42:24,098 --> 00:42:27,475
in South Carolina put out on a shark came up, washed up

672
00:42:27,555 --> 00:42:31,336
on a beach right by near where my parents live. I

673
00:42:31,377 --> 00:42:34,717
called them and I said, hey, would you guys possibly want to go

674
00:42:35,338 --> 00:42:38,699
pick that tag up off the beach to see if you could find it? If you do, it's huge

675
00:42:38,739 --> 00:42:42,000
for us. And they were like, oh yeah, we're right across the street eating lunch. And they

676
00:42:42,100 --> 00:42:45,561
ran out of the door, ran down to the beach, and

677
00:42:45,601 --> 00:42:49,001
they searched around. I coached them through it on FaceTime. And my mom

678
00:42:49,021 --> 00:42:52,522
and my sister found that tag. And it was such a

679
00:42:52,563 --> 00:42:55,824
full circle moment. Every once in a while, it

680
00:42:55,864 --> 00:42:59,385
takes a lot of hard work and dedication and stubbornness, but every once

681
00:42:59,425 --> 00:43:03,887
in a while you have those moments where

682
00:43:06,007 --> 00:43:10,009
Speaking of Florida and sharks, have you heard a lot from

683
00:43:10,069 --> 00:43:13,150
people in Florida about what's happening up in the

684
00:43:13,210 --> 00:43:17,692
Destin area these days? Has that been a big talk

685
00:43:21,588 --> 00:43:27,191
I was on vacation last week. We

686
00:43:27,471 --> 00:43:30,973
did talk about it at the

687
00:43:31,013 --> 00:43:34,135
family reunion. I was getting a lot of questions from my family. And

688
00:43:34,155 --> 00:43:37,377
they were like, is it safe to go in the water? And I was like, yeah,

689
00:43:37,397 --> 00:43:40,579
let's go boogie boarding. And they were like, well, Megan's in the water. She'll tell us when the

690
00:43:40,599 --> 00:43:43,880
shark is coming. And I was like, that's not how it works, you guys. But I

691
00:43:43,961 --> 00:43:47,102
appreciate the vote of confidence. I was like, they're there. Just so you

692
00:43:52,216 --> 00:43:55,398
Did you find like, did you find like the more you got to know

693
00:43:55,459 --> 00:43:59,722
about sharks, particularly white sharks, there was a point where like, to

694
00:43:59,822 --> 00:44:03,025
use a cliche, it's like ignorance is bliss. Like when you didn't know so much, it's

695
00:44:03,045 --> 00:44:06,267
like, oh, I'm just gonna go splash in the water. And then now that you kind of know it's

696
00:44:06,428 --> 00:44:09,670
out there, you're like, oh, I think I'll hang in the beach here.

697
00:44:09,690 --> 00:44:12,933
Do you ever have those moments where you think like, yeah, there's a lot more sharks out there

698
00:44:15,753 --> 00:44:19,215
A little bit, but I have also

699
00:44:19,315 --> 00:44:22,716
seen so many sharks in areas where

700
00:44:22,756 --> 00:44:28,559
there are people where they have absolutely no response that

701
00:44:28,919 --> 00:44:32,581
it's comforting in a way. Now we're using all these new exciting

702
00:44:32,641 --> 00:44:35,862
technologies to study sharks. We're using drones. like

703
00:44:36,002 --> 00:44:39,085
Chris Lowe's group is, like, you know, people all up

704
00:44:39,125 --> 00:44:42,368
and down both coasts are doing. We also, we

705
00:44:42,388 --> 00:44:45,650
work with a spotter pilot who flies around, and just so everybody knows, when

706
00:44:45,671 --> 00:44:49,193
we do spot a shark, we have a whole system in place for reporting

707
00:44:49,654 --> 00:44:53,057
in and for the lifeguards to get people out of the water, and we monitor that

708
00:44:53,117 --> 00:44:56,500
situation. But the more you learn about them,

709
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,123
like, I don't like to discredit them, they are

710
00:45:00,223 --> 00:45:03,587
amazing predators but they really they're just big fish

711
00:45:03,767 --> 00:45:07,191
that are out there looking for their natural prey items

712
00:45:07,451 --> 00:45:11,155
and we've been using these camera tags on

713
00:45:11,195 --> 00:45:14,299
white sharks off of Cape Cod for the past couple of years and

714
00:45:14,359 --> 00:45:17,962
some of the things we've seen like it would really hurt their fearsome

715
00:45:18,002 --> 00:45:21,224
reputation. We see them get scared by birds. We've seen one get

716
00:45:21,284 --> 00:45:25,807
shocked by a torpedo ray. We've seen one eat,

717
00:45:25,907 --> 00:45:29,149
or we put one, Greg put one on a shark right after she ate. We

718
00:45:29,189 --> 00:45:33,192
could see the seal intestine streaming out of her gill slit. And

719
00:45:33,232 --> 00:45:36,814
the whole point of the study when we started it was to learn

720
00:45:36,834 --> 00:45:40,092
more about their predatory behavior there. And we were like, oh,

721
00:45:40,192 --> 00:45:43,534
great. She just ate. We're not going to see anything cool.

722
00:45:43,554 --> 00:45:46,676
But then she went offshore and she just sat on the bottom, face into the

723
00:45:46,716 --> 00:45:49,858
current. And I freaked out and ran into Greg's office. And

724
00:45:49,898 --> 00:45:54,942
I was like, this thing is just sitting on the bottom there. She's

725
00:45:55,002 --> 00:45:58,264
not swimming right now. And so some of the

726
00:45:58,364 --> 00:46:01,546
insights and the glimpses into their

727
00:46:01,586 --> 00:46:04,809
lives that we've been able to get with this technology I think

728
00:46:04,949 --> 00:46:08,153
really goes against a lot of the public perception that's

729
00:46:08,353 --> 00:46:11,577
out there. And honestly, one, if I could do anything for

730
00:46:11,617 --> 00:46:15,182
shark conservation, I think I would take everybody cage diving, or

731
00:46:15,202 --> 00:46:18,286
I guess white shark conservation in particular, because you don't need a

732
00:46:18,346 --> 00:46:21,790
cage for all species. They're

733
00:46:21,870 --> 00:46:25,751
fine. But, you

734
00:46:25,791 --> 00:46:29,952
know, it's just so different than the way you see it depicted on TV.

735
00:46:30,232 --> 00:46:33,673
And it's, you know, just such a such a neat experience. And

736
00:46:33,693 --> 00:46:36,994
I wish I mean, that's a big part of I think the onus

737
00:46:37,014 --> 00:46:40,134
that's on us as scientists is we get to see these animals and

738
00:46:40,174 --> 00:46:43,435
learn about them in a way most people don't. So, right. You

739
00:46:43,475 --> 00:46:46,756
know, scientists were not always like science communication for me was

740
00:46:46,836 --> 00:46:50,097
not always very comfortable. Like I would get super nervous and

741
00:46:50,117 --> 00:46:53,518
I didn't want to speak You know out or do public talks and

742
00:46:53,558 --> 00:46:58,639
now look at me. You can't shut me up It's

743
00:46:58,759 --> 00:47:02,060
really Important that we impart that

744
00:47:02,140 --> 00:47:05,561
knowledge Yeah, you know in addition to learning

745
00:47:05,601 --> 00:47:09,543
about them from a scientific perspective and providing advice to fisheries managers

746
00:47:09,783 --> 00:47:14,485
and things like that but Because

747
00:47:14,505 --> 00:47:17,790
of that, we really need to share it

748
00:47:17,930 --> 00:47:21,115
with folks and combat some of those misperceptions that

749
00:47:21,676 --> 00:47:24,800
Yeah. And I think the interesting part of it all is

750
00:47:24,860 --> 00:47:28,646
the fact that as you start to monitor specific

751
00:47:28,706 --> 00:47:32,070
sharks and you get to know the sharks a little bit, their character kind

752
00:47:32,110 --> 00:47:35,552
of comes out. You can almost tell. And we've heard this with

753
00:47:36,052 --> 00:47:39,634
other scientists when they observe the white

754
00:47:39,674 --> 00:47:42,996
sharks in South Africa. When they see them enough, and

755
00:47:43,016 --> 00:47:46,818
they keep coming up, and they know who they are based on identifiable

756
00:47:46,918 --> 00:47:50,120
marks, they start to see the character come out. And when you start to

757
00:47:50,140 --> 00:47:53,384
see that character come out, gives them a little bit

758
00:47:53,424 --> 00:47:57,125
of that fun kind of, oh, there this one is doing, she's

759
00:47:57,166 --> 00:48:00,327
up to no good now, or what's she up to, or she's really curious, she's

760
00:48:00,347 --> 00:48:03,689
going to come close, or he's going to come close, or one's

761
00:48:03,709 --> 00:48:06,771
going to stay really far away because they're not too sure of us. And I

762
00:48:06,791 --> 00:48:10,468
think it's interesting when you start to You

763
00:48:10,488 --> 00:48:13,631
start to recognize them over and over again, and you see

764
00:48:13,671 --> 00:48:16,854
them individuals, and you get that character. It

765
00:48:16,954 --> 00:48:20,076
makes it easier to talk about them, because you're talking about them as

766
00:48:20,116 --> 00:48:23,780
if you know them really well. Because you do, because you've seen them. And

767
00:48:23,820 --> 00:48:27,663
so when the stories come out about those, I think that becomes

768
00:48:27,903 --> 00:48:31,125
more interesting. to people, because now we're kind of,

769
00:48:31,465 --> 00:48:34,847
I know in a way we're kind of humanizing them a little bit, but it's like, oh no, they have

770
00:48:34,887 --> 00:48:38,748
these little flaws, or they're not, they're kind

771
00:48:38,768 --> 00:48:42,130
of funny in a way, in the way they react, or the way they come and

772
00:48:42,150 --> 00:48:45,451
do the same routines and stuff. I think it makes it interesting, makes

773
00:48:45,511 --> 00:48:48,673
a dangerous animal a little bit more friendlier when you

774
00:48:52,575 --> 00:48:56,078
I was very resistant to that at first because my

775
00:48:56,278 --> 00:48:59,602
upbringing was like, nope, we're not going to nickname these things. Like,

776
00:48:59,662 --> 00:49:03,385
that's what American people do. We're shark people. We don't do

777
00:49:03,445 --> 00:49:06,809
that kind of thing. But then once we started the

778
00:49:06,869 --> 00:49:10,212
catalog and started identifying different individuals and

779
00:49:10,232 --> 00:49:15,007
we got to a certain point and it was like, like WS

780
00:49:15,187 --> 00:49:18,349
101, like that's not going to stick in my mind. So when

781
00:49:18,389 --> 00:49:21,851
we switched to nicknames, it made it so much easier to

782
00:49:21,911 --> 00:49:25,674
just remember. But it also has that impact. It's

783
00:49:25,774 --> 00:49:28,916
much more impactful for the general public because we have

784
00:49:28,956 --> 00:49:32,778
people ask us about specific sharks. year to year. Like

785
00:49:32,798 --> 00:49:36,340
has James showed up? When's the last time you heard from Jameson,

786
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:40,882
who was this little shark that stranded on the beach and lived?

787
00:49:41,122 --> 00:49:44,344
So it's a really great way, even though it

788
00:49:44,384 --> 00:49:47,666
might raise some eyebrows, but it's a great way

789
00:49:47,686 --> 00:49:51,288
to get the public engaged with the work and

790
00:49:51,328 --> 00:49:54,990
get them curious about it. And different sharks definitely have different vibes.

791
00:49:55,050 --> 00:49:59,532
I won't use the P word, but they

792
00:49:59,552 --> 00:50:03,453
definitely have different vibes. And it's one

793
00:50:03,533 --> 00:50:06,914
thing that I just, I love so much about being a scientist is

794
00:50:06,954 --> 00:50:11,296
that for every question we answer, like 55 more

795
00:50:11,356 --> 00:50:15,177
questions pop up. And the more we learn and try to characterize

796
00:50:15,517 --> 00:50:19,099
the white shark population in the Northwest Atlantic, the more individuals that

797
00:50:19,699 --> 00:50:22,880
Greg tags, and the more we kind of get a peek into their lives, the

798
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,541
more we realize how much individual variation there

799
00:50:26,821 --> 00:50:30,143
is, which is very different, I think, for people to

800
00:50:30,203 --> 00:50:33,585
think about for a fish. People are comfortable thinking that

801
00:50:33,645 --> 00:50:37,487
way for mammals. You know, a lot of people have dogs or cats, but

802
00:50:37,547 --> 00:50:40,869
we don't tend to think about fish the same kind

803
00:50:44,351 --> 00:50:47,832
Have you noticed any of the sharks like tend to They'll,

804
00:50:47,892 --> 00:50:51,415
they'll stay, certain individuals will kind of hang together.

805
00:50:51,435 --> 00:50:54,838
I don't want to say they don't necessarily school, but they'll kind of hang together.

806
00:50:58,181 --> 00:51:01,785
We'll do see, we will see like pulses of activity where

807
00:51:01,885 --> 00:51:05,668
our spotter pilot will have like eight sharks in the vicinity for

808
00:51:05,708 --> 00:51:09,606
a while. And then all of a sudden it's like poof. They're gone. And

809
00:51:09,646 --> 00:51:13,168
we don't know why. We don't know if it's always the same individuals.

810
00:51:13,208 --> 00:51:16,450
But one thing that I've gotten very curious about as as

811
00:51:16,570 --> 00:51:19,852
part of that photo ID work is we

812
00:51:19,912 --> 00:51:23,294
have some individuals that look so much alike. Their markings are

813
00:51:23,334 --> 00:51:26,516
very similar. There was one shark that we thought we had

814
00:51:26,536 --> 00:51:29,597
made a match. and then we realized one was a male and one was a

815
00:51:29,657 --> 00:51:33,139
female. And we were like, oh, they have to be related. So

816
00:51:33,179 --> 00:51:37,381
now we've got this kind of, we call it the sibling conspiracy board

817
00:51:38,522 --> 00:51:41,944
that we were like, this white shark I think is related to this one.

818
00:51:42,464 --> 00:51:46,006
And one thing we're trying to ramp up is our genetic sampling

819
00:51:46,026 --> 00:51:49,848
so we can start to look at these things. Because

820
00:51:50,349 --> 00:51:53,870
like, I mean, it's just some of the markings on them are so similar.

821
00:52:00,014 --> 00:52:03,276
Yeah, and then talking with folks at White Sharks Global, the folks who are doing

822
00:52:03,296 --> 00:52:06,738
the genetics work in Australia and some of these other places,

823
00:52:06,798 --> 00:52:10,461
they found they're like, essentially, the white shark populations there

824
00:52:10,501 --> 00:52:14,083
decline so much that they're all just kind of inbred. Not my,

825
00:52:17,165 --> 00:52:21,147
But it made me curious having seen so many sharks with similar markings, we

826
00:52:21,187 --> 00:52:24,610
know based on the timeline of declines of protections and

827
00:52:24,650 --> 00:52:28,433
the fact that at least right now we think that females

828
00:52:28,453 --> 00:52:31,855
don't start reproducing until they're in their 30s and

829
00:52:31,875 --> 00:52:35,298
they're 15 feet long. I don't know if you guys heard about the shark that

830
00:52:35,318 --> 00:52:39,141
washed up on the beach in Pensacola this winter, dead.

831
00:52:39,241 --> 00:52:42,583
It was 15 feet long female shark, not

832
00:52:42,623 --> 00:52:45,986
mature, not mature at that size.

833
00:52:46,006 --> 00:52:49,488
So they take so long to reproduce and that population was

834
00:52:49,568 --> 00:52:53,011
knocked down. you know, by all the, by all accounts pretty

835
00:52:53,071 --> 00:52:56,273
severely. So they're likely for a while haven't been that many

836
00:52:56,333 --> 00:53:00,155
reproductively productive females out

837
00:53:00,216 --> 00:53:03,538
there. So it makes sense, but we just, we don't have

838
00:53:03,598 --> 00:53:06,780
any, any sorts of data on, on that yet for

839
00:53:06,820 --> 00:53:10,322
this population. But I'm, I'm very, I would be so satisfied if

840
00:53:10,362 --> 00:53:13,865
some of our sibling conspiracy theories panned out, I'd be like, I knew

841
00:53:16,707 --> 00:53:19,986
I, I, I, you know, I, I, I don't know

842
00:53:20,006 --> 00:53:23,649
about the white shark, but I know with other species, I think when they pup, a

843
00:53:23,669 --> 00:53:27,051
lot of those siblings kind of hang, when their first pup, they tend to hang

844
00:53:27,091 --> 00:53:30,153
together in the same general vicinity. Again, I

845
00:53:30,173 --> 00:53:33,756
don't want to say it's a schooling behavior, but they tend to hang together.

846
00:53:33,776 --> 00:53:37,779
And for however long, I don't know, but I'm

847
00:53:37,979 --> 00:53:41,262
sure these white sharks, if they went out there, like when we see all these ones

848
00:53:41,362 --> 00:53:44,804
off, off here in Monterey Bay, if you were to get genetics on

849
00:53:44,864 --> 00:53:48,778
enough of those things, I would not be surprised if a number of them are related. And

850
00:53:48,798 --> 00:53:52,179
I'm sure where you are in the East Coast there

851
00:53:52,199 --> 00:53:55,440
in New England, you'd probably find a similar thing, especially when they're

852
00:53:55,460 --> 00:53:58,722
younger. They might segregate more. We do know they segregate at

853
00:53:58,762 --> 00:54:02,183
some point where the adult males and the adult females and the juveniles

854
00:54:02,243 --> 00:54:05,424
all kind of stay in different areas. So it would make

855
00:54:05,484 --> 00:54:09,385
sense that there would be some, if you found the right nursery area, that

856
00:54:10,526 --> 00:54:14,752
there'd be some relation there with them. Which

857
00:54:14,772 --> 00:54:18,975
kind of leads me to question two. Have you guys noticed any expansion

858
00:54:21,397 --> 00:54:24,980
Not yet. Well, we've seen there are more smaller

859
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,322
ones being caught in the waters off of Rhode Island, but that was

860
00:54:28,382 --> 00:54:31,484
kind of the northern extent of that area. And

861
00:54:31,524 --> 00:54:34,727
we do have reports every year of a few small ones like south of

862
00:54:34,787 --> 00:54:37,969
Nantucket, not quite Cape Cod area,

863
00:54:38,009 --> 00:54:41,191
but we see a pretty broad size range off Cape Cod. We've

864
00:54:41,211 --> 00:54:44,674
seen sharks as little as like six feet. which isn't an itty bitty baby,

865
00:54:47,355 --> 00:54:50,556
All the way up to 18 feet long. So most of the ones we

866
00:54:50,616 --> 00:54:53,837
see are between eight and 12 feet in length. But we do

867
00:54:53,877 --> 00:54:57,178
see a pretty big size range. And, you know, every year

868
00:54:57,538 --> 00:55:00,918
that's one thing. I'm not a big social media person, but it is really good

869
00:55:01,419 --> 00:55:05,020
for doing some some white sharks sleuthery, because anytime

870
00:55:05,060 --> 00:55:09,058
somebody catches one, they're going to post. And folks are

871
00:55:09,279 --> 00:55:13,021
catching baby white sharks or they're spotting them with drones in

872
00:55:13,061 --> 00:55:16,444
other places. So that's one way that citizen science can play

873
00:55:16,604 --> 00:55:19,906
a big role in this. But yeah, right now,

874
00:55:20,006 --> 00:55:23,669
still the only really well-defined kind of known nursery area

875
00:55:23,709 --> 00:55:26,771
for the species in our neck of the woods is that area off of

876
00:55:26,791 --> 00:55:30,096
Long Island. There is there an app for like a like a I white

877
00:55:30,137 --> 00:55:34,861
shark nap app like, you know, I natural sap We

878
00:55:34,921 --> 00:55:38,285
have an app called shark tivity it's there we

879
00:55:38,325 --> 00:55:41,728
go available on iPhone and Android and

880
00:55:42,149 --> 00:55:45,853
Android It's a it's essentially it's a citizen scientist tool.

881
00:55:45,973 --> 00:55:49,275
So we report sightings from research trips. We

882
00:55:49,696 --> 00:55:54,119
share our tagging data that way. We actually have five real

883
00:55:54,179 --> 00:55:57,281
time acoustic receivers that are

884
00:55:57,321 --> 00:56:01,144
deployed off the Cape every summer. And whenever a

885
00:56:01,184 --> 00:56:04,826
shark tag with an acoustic transmitter swims by one of those real time receivers,

886
00:56:04,886 --> 00:56:08,413
that notification goes immediately to the app. that

887
00:56:09,113 --> 00:56:12,495
it also provides information on the shark. Is it a male? Is it a female? What's

888
00:56:12,555 --> 00:56:17,517
its nickname? Where has it been detected before in

889
00:56:17,597 --> 00:56:20,758
our array, which is really cool. So it's a good outreach tool. But what's so

890
00:56:20,818 --> 00:56:24,059
powerful about it is it also allows folks to submit their

891
00:56:24,179 --> 00:56:27,440
own sightings because we're a small team. We can't be

892
00:56:27,540 --> 00:56:30,822
everywhere all at once. But people love going to

893
00:56:30,842 --> 00:56:34,103
the beach in the summer and they love being out on boats. So it's been

894
00:56:34,721 --> 00:56:38,064
a great source of information. It's a great

895
00:56:38,484 --> 00:56:41,606
So I gotta ask you the question. So now that you're doing your

896
00:56:41,647 --> 00:56:44,926
dream job working on sharks, How much time

897
00:56:47,467 --> 00:56:50,950
I feel really lucky. I do

898
00:56:51,210 --> 00:56:54,533
certainly have a lot more admin work than

899
00:56:54,553 --> 00:56:58,155
I did in the past, but we are

900
00:56:58,216 --> 00:57:01,398
very field heavy this time of the year. It's a

901
00:57:01,458 --> 00:57:04,620
small crew, so I do still get to spend a

902
00:57:04,881 --> 00:57:08,304
good amount of time in the field, which is great for

903
00:57:08,324 --> 00:57:11,446
me because it helps make it really rewarding, like you're out

904
00:57:11,466 --> 00:57:14,988
there and you see a shark that you identified before.

905
00:57:15,028 --> 00:57:18,109
Sometimes we can recognize them from the surface, even if

906
00:57:18,169 --> 00:57:21,511
it doesn't have a tag, and we just geek out. So I found it's

907
00:57:21,891 --> 00:57:25,248
really helpful to stay connected and engaged. that

908
00:57:25,288 --> 00:57:28,470
way. But yeah, the computer work, it really creeps up on you,

909
00:57:28,770 --> 00:57:31,811
especially this time of the year. I find myself speaking and doing a lot of

910
00:57:37,694 --> 00:57:40,876
But you're doing a lot of you're doing a lot of analytics, too, like

911
00:57:40,916 --> 00:57:44,418
you're doing a lot of population analytics and things like that. So it's not just admin

912
00:57:44,458 --> 00:57:47,619
stuff. It's you're actually working up the data that you collect in

913
00:57:47,639 --> 00:57:50,981
the field. So there's probably a lot of hours doing that as well, I assume. Right.

914
00:57:51,340 --> 00:57:55,623
There are. And you know what? It's going to sound super kind

915
00:57:55,663 --> 00:57:58,786
of nerdy, but I love that side of the work. It is

916
00:57:58,906 --> 00:58:02,449
so mentally challenging. It's like putting together a puzzle.

917
00:58:02,469 --> 00:58:05,671
And I knew I was

918
00:58:05,731 --> 00:58:09,214
interested in it, but Dave, when I was working with you, as I was finishing

919
00:58:09,294 --> 00:58:12,577
up my master's, I really wanted to learn R. I

920
00:58:12,637 --> 00:58:16,099
wanted to learn how to code. And so that's when I kind

921
00:58:16,159 --> 00:58:19,461
of got my feet wet on that. And I just, it can

922
00:58:19,582 --> 00:58:23,104
drive you crazy if you've got a bug in your code. And

923
00:58:23,424 --> 00:58:26,786
you've got to puzzle and figure it out. But it has helped

924
00:58:26,826 --> 00:58:29,988
me become a much better biologist. And that was when I knew I

925
00:58:30,289 --> 00:58:33,431
wanted to go back and get my PhD. I knew I kind of

926
00:58:33,491 --> 00:58:37,453
reached the point where I had kind of taught myself statistically

927
00:58:37,513 --> 00:58:40,875
as much as I could to do what I needed to

928
00:58:40,915 --> 00:58:44,097
do at the time, but I knew I needed a little bit

929
00:58:44,137 --> 00:58:47,479
more formal training to analyze data

930
00:58:47,519 --> 00:58:50,761
responsibly, I guess I would say. And so at that point,

931
00:58:50,882 --> 00:58:54,204
I went to UMass Dartmouth, and my major

932
00:58:54,224 --> 00:58:57,345
advisor there was not actually Greg. He was obviously a huge part of the

933
00:58:57,386 --> 00:59:00,987
work and a very active member on my committee But Gavin

934
00:59:01,027 --> 00:59:05,108
Fay, who is a very super

935
00:59:05,288 --> 00:59:09,049
crazy smart, like I talk to him and I just feel like an idiot. He's

936
00:59:09,069 --> 00:59:12,670
a smart quantitative scientist at

937
00:59:12,690 --> 00:59:16,231
the University of Massachusetts, Dartmouth. And I definitely ramped

938
00:59:16,351 --> 00:59:19,452
up my coding skills. And a lot of

939
00:59:19,512 --> 00:59:23,593
my PhD work was actually more focused on model development. But

940
00:59:23,633 --> 00:59:26,854
I was very lucky that I had an application that I was

941
00:59:27,114 --> 00:59:30,675
super invested in. But if there are young

942
00:59:30,956 --> 00:59:34,477
upcoming marine scientists out there listening, one skill

943
00:59:34,577 --> 00:59:37,758
I would highly recommend you get in your arsenal. It seems to

944
00:59:37,798 --> 00:59:40,979
be pretty invaluable these days. And again, it's how I

945
00:59:41,379 --> 00:59:44,800
got into the world of white shark science is learn how to code,

946
00:59:45,260 --> 00:59:48,581
learn how to analyze data. It will make you think about your

947
00:59:48,621 --> 00:59:52,102
studies in a different way and it can be,

948
00:59:52,282 --> 00:59:55,424
I mean, it's just such a fun kind of

949
00:59:55,544 --> 00:59:58,665
puzzle to put together. But to know not only how

950
00:59:58,705 --> 01:00:02,426
to collect data, but what to do with it to answer these questions

951
01:00:03,147 --> 01:00:06,508
is a really powerful, important skill. And we're in the era

952
01:00:06,528 --> 01:00:10,870
of big data. We're putting out camera tags that collect 11 hours

953
01:00:10,930 --> 01:00:14,231
of footage and millions of data points for like a

954
01:00:14,451 --> 01:00:17,964
multi-day deployment. like their

955
01:00:18,284 --> 01:00:22,186
drones. I mean, it's just there's, you know, there's data everywhere.

956
01:00:22,226 --> 01:00:25,687
So being able to make use of it is, is hugely

957
01:00:27,127 --> 01:00:30,428
So, so Megan, you have it, you're going to be on a shark fest this

958
01:00:30,468 --> 01:00:33,689
year. I understand. And so why don't you tell us a little bit about

959
01:00:33,709 --> 01:00:37,331
this? This show is going to air just after your, your debuted on

960
01:00:37,391 --> 01:00:40,550
the, on the on the Shark Fest, but can you tell us about the show a

961
01:00:41,031 --> 01:00:45,557
I guess since it's coming out after I can. No,

962
01:00:46,738 --> 01:00:50,963
it was a really great experience because Greg

963
01:00:50,983 --> 01:00:54,207
Skomal and I've been working with him, we were the

964
01:00:54,247 --> 01:00:58,373
first to put out these camera tags. On white sharks in

965
01:00:58,493 --> 01:01:01,597
our in our area. And so we've had other folks reach out to

966
01:01:01,737 --> 01:01:05,222
us about doing that work. We made a trip to Canada a few years

967
01:01:05,302 --> 01:01:08,527
ago to get a camera tag on a white shark there, which

968
01:01:08,587 --> 01:01:13,039
was a really cool thing to be a part of. completely different

969
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:17,102
scene to Cape Cod. And it was just so beautiful.

970
01:01:17,162 --> 01:01:20,505
And I was like, I'm going to move to Canada. This place is amazing. Until I went back

971
01:01:20,545 --> 01:01:24,308
in the winter, and it was freezing. I was like, no, can't hack

972
01:01:24,448 --> 01:01:29,232
it. Can't do it. Colder than Massachusetts? Not

973
01:01:29,272 --> 01:01:33,015
as cold as it is in Canada. Woo, it was brutal. Kudos to

974
01:01:33,035 --> 01:01:37,777
them. But

975
01:01:37,938 --> 01:01:41,318
we had the same opportunity to go to Long Island and work

976
01:01:41,378 --> 01:01:44,719
with Dr. Toby Curtis and Greg Metzger and Dr. Harley

977
01:01:44,779 --> 01:01:47,860
Newton, who's been working really hard over the past couple of

978
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:51,601
years to get a better handle on that nursery

979
01:01:51,681 --> 01:01:55,742
site. And they put out satellite tags, acoustic tags.

980
01:01:56,516 --> 01:01:59,781
We studied those sharks in various ways, and they learned a

981
01:01:59,861 --> 01:02:03,226
lot, but they hadn't put a camera tag

982
01:02:03,286 --> 01:02:07,012
on one of them yet, and we had a specially made,

983
01:02:07,633 --> 01:02:11,658
tiny, itty-bitty camera tag that was small enough to go on

984
01:02:11,678 --> 01:02:16,203
a baby white shark. And so we went down there to get

985
01:02:16,243 --> 01:02:19,467
that out and get a first glimpse into the

986
01:02:19,507 --> 01:02:22,711
life of these baby white sharks in their nursery area. And I'll

987
01:02:25,614 --> 01:02:31,579
You will have to, yeah, absolutely. Gotta watch the show. Well,

988
01:02:31,599 --> 01:02:34,741
Megan, this has been really terrific. I

989
01:02:34,761 --> 01:02:37,982
knew it was going to be great having you on. And of course, I love having my former students on

990
01:02:38,002 --> 01:02:41,684
the show here. What's next for you? Before we

991
01:02:41,704 --> 01:02:45,026
go here, what's sort of the next step you think

992
01:02:45,066 --> 01:02:48,447
about for your career, besides maybe not moving to Canada where

993
01:02:53,050 --> 01:02:56,453
Not moving to Canada. You know, I'm actually

994
01:02:56,593 --> 01:02:59,976
I'm so happy where I am. So I took

995
01:03:00,296 --> 01:03:03,639
my current job a few years before

996
01:03:03,719 --> 01:03:08,623
I graduated. Well, I took this job in 2019. And

997
01:03:08,843 --> 01:03:12,125
it's been really exciting and rewarding to

998
01:03:12,165 --> 01:03:15,667
be a part of. And it's been very cool to be a part of an organization that's

999
01:03:15,827 --> 01:03:18,929
that's been growing at the same time as I've been growing as

1000
01:03:18,989 --> 01:03:22,070
a scientist. So there are still quite a few questions I want to

1001
01:03:22,170 --> 01:03:25,712
answer here. But I would be lying if I if I didn't say I

1002
01:03:25,752 --> 01:03:29,354
wanted to just follow the sharks year round this past winter. I went

1003
01:03:29,394 --> 01:03:32,676
down and did some work with the charter captain we work with in South

1004
01:03:32,716 --> 01:03:36,318
Carolina. And I really got into the snowbird scene. I

1005
01:03:36,358 --> 01:03:39,762
was like, you know what? I think I should just follow these things year

1006
01:03:39,822 --> 01:03:43,467
round. And Massachusetts, like, King Kong right now is wonderful. It's

1007
01:03:43,567 --> 01:03:47,191
in the 70s. It's kind of almost California type weather. But

1008
01:03:47,472 --> 01:03:50,633
come February. It's time

1009
01:03:50,653 --> 01:03:54,214
to go back to Jacksonville. So it's nice to go, to go south.

1010
01:03:54,434 --> 01:03:57,715
But I, so I hope we get to do a little bit more, uh, more

1011
01:03:57,775 --> 01:04:01,236
winter work down south at some of these areas where, where white sharks are,

1012
01:04:01,876 --> 01:04:05,117
are popping up and kind of becoming more of a, of

1013
01:04:05,177 --> 01:04:08,478
a scene. Um, but Dave, I, we didn't even

1014
01:04:08,498 --> 01:04:11,799
get to talk. I didn't even get to tell any embarrassing stories about you

1015
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:18,321
We'll have, we'll have to have you back on then. I guess we'll have to have you come

1016
01:04:18,381 --> 01:04:21,750
on for part two here. to talk talk share some more stories because

1017
01:04:21,770 --> 01:04:25,290
I know we can go on for a little longer but But

1018
01:04:25,330 --> 01:04:28,671
Megan, thank you so much for coming on and we're definitely will have you back

1019
01:04:28,831 --> 01:04:32,332
on to share some more stories and we'll get more into Your

1020
01:04:32,352 --> 01:04:35,673
time at Moss Landing and some of some of the other other cool stuff

1021
01:04:35,733 --> 01:04:39,134
and you're doing and some of the cool people you've worked with as well So anyway,

1022
01:04:44,488 --> 01:04:48,030
That was a lot of fun. Thank you very much, Megan, for joining us on the beyond

1023
01:04:48,050 --> 01:04:51,311
jaws podcast. Dave, this is going to like,

1024
01:04:51,371 --> 01:04:54,692
she's a star already, like in the, in the, in the world of sharks,

1025
01:04:54,712 --> 01:04:58,294
not just white sharks, but in the world of sharks, you know, what'd you think of the, I

1026
01:04:58,734 --> 01:05:01,935
I mean, it was, it was great. I, I, you know, I knew, you know, Megan was just,

1027
01:05:02,216 --> 01:05:05,937
she's a rock star and I really, you know, we've had some really outstanding ones,

1028
01:05:06,357 --> 01:05:09,679
people on here and a really nice to having her on here. Uh, uh,

1029
01:05:10,019 --> 01:05:13,363
cause she was a former student of mine, which I really, which is really,

1030
01:05:13,544 --> 01:05:16,885
it's always kind of neat when I have one of my former students, I've had a few of them on now,

1031
01:05:17,366 --> 01:05:20,968
have had Jenny Bigman and Rachel Atkinson and Kelsey James

1032
01:05:21,108 --> 01:05:24,790
on previously and having Megan in there and she, they're all, well,

1033
01:05:25,270 --> 01:05:28,912
Megan and Kel, I think you heard the story, Megan and Kelsey actually,

1034
01:05:28,932 --> 01:05:32,074
you know, heard the story, went from

1035
01:05:32,114 --> 01:05:35,436
my lab, I sent them back to work with Lisa Natanson, who Lisa

1036
01:05:35,496 --> 01:05:39,298
and I were graduate students together at Moss Landing. They

1037
01:05:39,338 --> 01:05:43,057
went and spent a few weeks working with Lisa back there, learning age and growth. And

1038
01:05:43,077 --> 01:05:46,900
then that led to Kelsey becoming a PhD student of Lisa's

1039
01:05:46,940 --> 01:05:50,524
where she got her PhD. And that led to Megan meeting Greg Scoble,

1040
01:05:50,884 --> 01:05:54,227
who then she eventually got on and became a PhD student. So,

1041
01:05:54,427 --> 01:05:57,590
so young people, students listening out there, that's kind of how it works a

1042
01:05:57,630 --> 01:06:01,253
lot of time. It's networking if you have that opportunity. And so

1043
01:06:01,273 --> 01:06:04,573
I couldn't be happier than to, uh, I

1044
01:06:04,833 --> 01:06:08,156
would like to add too, it's not just networking. I think it's how you work

1045
01:06:21,004 --> 01:06:24,367
if Megan didn't work hard. You

1046
01:06:24,447 --> 01:06:28,151
knew the type of student that Megan was. You knew that she would

1047
01:06:28,211 --> 01:06:31,374
do really well under working with Lisa and learn a

1048
01:06:31,434 --> 01:06:34,537
lot. She wanted to learn. And I think that's the key too. It's

1049
01:06:34,557 --> 01:06:38,080
like, you can get referred through the networks of other people, but

1050
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:41,383
you also have to show that you're going to work, and

1051
01:06:41,443 --> 01:06:44,946
you got to prove that you're going to work. And I think that's what Megan was, is

1052
01:06:45,226 --> 01:06:48,549
someone who worked her butt off to get to where she's at

1053
01:06:48,709 --> 01:06:52,171
and deserves all the accolades that she's getting now and will continue

1054
01:06:52,191 --> 01:06:55,453
to get because she's so passionate about all the work

1055
01:06:55,473 --> 01:06:58,934
that she does. She just wants to learn about not necessarily one species of shark. She

1056
01:06:58,975 --> 01:07:02,436
wants to learn about a number of different species and how they all differ and what

1057
01:07:02,476 --> 01:07:05,778
kind of questions she can have. And I think that just embodies the

1058
01:07:05,818 --> 01:07:08,920
shark scientists that we see today and continue to

1059
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:12,242
see from that started off in the past with Lisa, and

1060
01:07:12,302 --> 01:07:15,544
now we're seeing it in Megan. We're seeing it in a lot of other, with Chantal, who

1061
01:07:15,584 --> 01:07:18,905
we had on. uh, just, just before or who we're going to have on,

1062
01:07:18,925 --> 01:07:22,167
uh, in a few weeks. And, and I just think it's, it's

1063
01:07:22,287 --> 01:07:26,029
great to see, you know, this type of, of curiosity,

1064
01:07:26,069 --> 01:07:29,231
just driving shark science, you know, and we see it in a lot of

1065
01:07:29,251 --> 01:07:32,453
people that you just don't get the accolades that they, that they do. We don't see it because we

1066
01:07:32,493 --> 01:07:36,114
don't hear them talk all the time, but I think, you know, we got to see it today in,

1067
01:07:36,675 --> 01:07:39,977
Yeah, no, you see, I see with Megan, as I say, she got, you know, she happened

1068
01:07:39,997 --> 01:07:43,698
to work with very fortunate. She got to work with Colin Simpendorfer, Michelle Hypel,

1069
01:07:43,739 --> 01:07:47,079
John Carlson, you know, myself, Lisa, I mean, she,

1070
01:07:47,519 --> 01:07:51,120
and at each stage of the way, and I kind of mentioned this during the show is

1071
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:54,301
that you do a good, you come in, cause especially the shark field, it's so it's a

1072
01:07:54,341 --> 01:07:57,682
small, it's a small field. And if you come in and you do a good job

1073
01:07:57,802 --> 01:08:01,084
for somebody, you know, like I see an application come through

1074
01:08:01,104 --> 01:08:04,185
and I say, Oh, you worked with Michelle and Colin and John, you

1075
01:08:04,225 --> 01:08:07,426
know, that's going to be a phone call I'm going to have and just get the

1076
01:08:07,466 --> 01:08:10,887
straight story. And so always be aware of that when you're working with somebody that

1077
01:08:11,342 --> 01:08:14,644
to do it. I mean, and Megan, it wasn't a case. It just came naturally for her. And I've

1078
01:08:14,684 --> 01:08:17,726
had several other students. It was the same thing. They, they, you know, happened to

1079
01:08:17,766 --> 01:08:21,188
get into be, have an opportunity to work with somebody and, and,

1080
01:08:21,208 --> 01:08:24,550
and they, they get a firsthand view of them. And so, and

1081
01:08:24,710 --> 01:08:27,832
Megan, she did not disappoint at all. She was an outstanding student in

1082
01:08:27,872 --> 01:08:30,994
my lab. She went on and did a great job. I mean, she wouldn't be where she is

1083
01:08:31,014 --> 01:08:35,479
with Greg Skomal. if she hadn't done a good job back

1084
01:08:35,519 --> 01:08:39,021
in the day. And she did a great job with Greg, yeah. Absolutely.

1085
01:08:39,041 --> 01:08:42,202
And it's just like, for me, it's kind of really cool to see some of those students that

1086
01:08:42,242 --> 01:08:45,484
I've had a personal hand in coming through. But there's a lot of students out

1087
01:08:45,524 --> 01:08:48,766
there that we've had on there that are just really coming into

1088
01:08:48,786 --> 01:08:53,828
their own. I think people like Megan and some of the other ones. We had Lucia

1089
01:08:54,128 --> 01:08:57,250
Soros on a few weeks ago. We've had Jalen Myers on. We've had a

1090
01:08:57,450 --> 01:09:00,952
number of Julia Constance. We've had several on this year that have been really

1091
01:09:01,427 --> 01:09:04,710
Keep your eye on it because I think in the future, you'll see some big things by some

1092
01:09:04,730 --> 01:09:07,993
of these people in the future, which is

1093
01:09:08,013 --> 01:09:11,217
kind of neat for us, Andrew, because we can have them come back on and come

1094
01:09:11,257 --> 01:09:14,640
on back on in a few years and see where they are. And we can play the tape.

1095
01:09:14,660 --> 01:09:17,783
We can play the tape. So that's kind of

1096
01:09:18,724 --> 01:09:22,692
Yeah, it's going to be great. I'm looking forward to it. That's going to be a lot of fun. Okay,

1097
01:09:22,712 --> 01:09:26,114
well that's it. I know Megan says

1098
01:09:26,134 --> 01:09:29,195
she wasn't really into social media as much. She does have an

1099
01:09:29,255 --> 01:09:32,897
Instagram, but it's more of a personal one, so we're not going to share that necessarily.

1100
01:09:36,239 --> 01:09:40,001
It's lostsharkguy on Instagram, lostsharkguy on

1101
01:09:40,201 --> 01:09:44,383
ex-Twitter, and it's lostsharks on Facebook and LinkedIn, Dave

1102
01:09:44,683 --> 01:09:48,645
And if people want to watch this podcast, you can go to our YouTube channel.

1103
01:09:50,112 --> 01:09:53,774
It is Beyond Jaws podcast. We'll put the link in the show notes. Subscribe

1104
01:09:54,394 --> 01:09:57,975
and watch all of our past episodes and some of the clips that we have from those episodes

1105
01:09:58,035 --> 01:10:01,296
if you don't have the time to watch the entire thing. But if you're into

1106
01:10:01,436 --> 01:10:04,518
watching podcasts on video, you can go to our

1107
01:10:04,558 --> 01:10:07,919
YouTube page and see that. But thank you so much to

1108
01:10:08,019 --> 01:10:11,480
Megan and Dave. Of course, thank you very much for joining us and getting

1109
01:10:11,540 --> 01:10:14,902
all these great guests. This is amazing. By the way, folks, this is a lot of Dave's

1110
01:10:15,122 --> 01:10:18,583
network. You know, he's the one who brings out all these wonderful guests and

1111
01:10:18,623 --> 01:10:21,885
knows the history and everything and knows all the stories. It makes it really,

1112
01:10:21,905 --> 01:10:25,947
really entertaining. So Dave, thank you so much for lending that network

1113
01:10:25,987 --> 01:10:29,408
to us. We really appreciate it. And thank you, everybody, for

1114
01:10:29,448 --> 01:10:32,890
listening to this episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. From Dave

1115
01:10:32,910 --> 01:10:35,951
and I, we really appreciate you. Have a great day. We'll talk to