How Genetics is Fighting Shark Fin Trade

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On today's episode, we're gonna be

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talking about genetics and sharks and

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how to detect specific sharks that have

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been subject to the fin trade or

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a turtle that may have

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been illegally taken and

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it has to be put back in the right spot.

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We're gonna be talking to Diego

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Cardenosa, who is a postdoc at

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the Florida

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International University in Florida.

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And he is gonna talk about his work with

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genetics and sharks and

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all these different types of animals.

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It's a fascinating conversation.

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So let's start the show.

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Hey everybody, welcome back to another

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exciting episode of

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the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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I'm your co-host Andrew Lewin here with

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my co-host Dr. David Ebert.

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Dave, are you ready to talk about

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genetics and sharks?

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Yeah, absolutely, Andrew.

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I'm really excited about

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this particular show with Diego.

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I've kind of known him a

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little bit over the years and

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been really excited to have him come on

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and talk about all of

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the work he's doing.

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His fascinating stuff talks about what

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it's like to work in different countries,

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particularly in Hong

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Kong and getting around.

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I think the whole story about working for

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Interpol and everything is just amazing.

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It's not something we get every day when

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we do one of these episodes.

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But it's a fascinating

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story he has and talks about.

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Of course, what I really wanted to hear

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about was the hammerhead sharks.

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I'm really looking forward to learning

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more about these little hammerhead sharks

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that he's found off

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off the Pacific Coast of

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Ecuador, which is a fascinating story to

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these two critically endangered species.

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So, yeah, I'm really

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looking forward to this one.

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And they're adorable looking sharks and

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so I can't wait to talk

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about they're very cute.

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All right, let's get into the interview.

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Here is Diego Cardinosa talking about his

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work with genetics and sharks.

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Enjoy the interview and

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we'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Diego.

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Welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about sharks?

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Yeah, well, I'm always

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ready to talk about sharks.

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Thank you for having me here.

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Welcome to the another episode of the

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Beyond Jaws podcast where we have an

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outstanding early career researcher.

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We have Dr. Diego Cardinosa, who's a

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distinguished postdoctoral research

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fellow at Florida

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International University.

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Diego's research interests are focused on

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determining the species composition of

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the international shark trade, the

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identification of geographical regions of

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the origin of these wildlife products and

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supply chains at the highest risk of

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illicit trade and the development and

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implementation of rapid,

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portable and inexpensive import

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DNA protocols to enhance the detection of

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illicit wildlife trade by law enforcement

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in major wildlife trade

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hubs around the world.

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In recent years, he's even worked with

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Interpol and law enforcement agencies in

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several countries such as

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Hong Kong, Peru, Ecuador,

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combating trafficking of sharks and rays

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and natterzils and freshwater turtles

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while also conducting the largest shark

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fin market survey in the world.

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In addition, he works closely with

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countries in South America to reduce

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shark bycatch and create long term

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programs to assess the status of shark

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and ray populations in the region using

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telemetry, environmental DNA and baited

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remote underwater video approaches.

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He's received numerous awards, including

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the Blue Marine Foundation's innovative

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Ocean Award in 2024, the Explorers Club

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50, People Changing the World in 2023,

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the Director of Criminal Investigation

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and Interpol Medal 2022,

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the Florida International University

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Distinguished Postdoctoral Research

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Fellowship and the American Elasm

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Branc Society's Samuel Gruber Award.

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That's just some of the awards he's won.

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That's my favorite one.

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That's his favorite one.

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Of course, it has to be.

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The Gruber Award.

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Yeah.

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And he did his academic background as he

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did a bachelor's of science and a

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master's of science in the

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Universidad de los Andes.

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And he did his PhD at Stony Brook

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University in New York.

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And with that, welcome Diego to the show.

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Yeah, thank you.

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Yeah.

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So our first question we always want to

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start off with our guests are is, how did

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you get interested in

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sharks and in marine biology?

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That's a question that comes a

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lot when I talk about sharks.

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And the funny thing is

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that I don't remember.

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It's one of those things that there's

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always been a shark in my

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head since I can't remember.

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And I remember my mom actually has

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drawings when I was like three years old

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of like a hybrid orca

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and kind of shark picture.

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So it's nobody knows really where it came

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from, but it's always

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been there for some reason.

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And yeah, I wanted to be a shark

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biologist while my friends wanted to be

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firefighters and police, you know.

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Right. Yeah.

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Yeah. And I turned to a career and I

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guess my parents

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always supported that idea.

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So growing up, you grew up

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in Colombia. Is that correct?

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Yeah. Yeah. And you might think, oh,

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yeah, tropical nation, whatever.

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I grew up very high up in the mountains,

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like twenty six

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meters above the sea level.

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So the ocean was always super far for me.

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But I always kept on reading about sharks

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and watching

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documentaries and all these things.

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So I always kept, you

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know, an interest about it.

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So that's interesting. Yeah.

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Did your family go to the beach very

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often when you were growing up?

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Not very often. But when we had holidays

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from school or anything like that,

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I never went I've never been to

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Disneyland or anything like that. Oh, our

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holidays were to the either Colombian

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Pacific Coast or the

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Colombian Caribbean Coast.

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And yeah, to what like the whale shark,

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the whale, the whale, the

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humpback whale migration

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or the whale shark migration or things

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like that. So we always went

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to to nature holidays. So that

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always kept me fueled up with nature.

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Were your parents very nature focused

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then? Because if they

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wanted to go look at nature on vacation.

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Yeah, yeah, they loved it. And they were

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they were scuba divers way before I

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developed an interest. So

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obviously, when they came back from

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their trips, they they were, oh, we saw

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whale shark and they were

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telling how this is stored

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the stories in these things. And yeah, I

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always fascinated me to

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hear their stories. And I

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always bought them to to get me to scuba

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as soon as possible. So I

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did my first course when I

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was like 11 years old. Nice.

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Geez. That's young. I don't even know

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what's what's the minimum

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age you have to be at that

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seems super young between 10 and 12.

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10 for Patty at least for Patty at least

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is 10. Yeah. Yeah, that I

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know was not that young course

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I'm a lot older than you guys. But that

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no was not that young when I

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was coming up. That's that's

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amazing. It used to be 12. It used to be

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12. And then it was and

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then it was 10. I found out

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recently was 10. Yeah. Okay. Yeah,

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pretty, pretty cool to be in your old

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breathing underwater.

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Chasing sharks and chasing right. So when

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you went to when you go as

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you kind of went on like say

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to high school and stuff and you go see

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like a guidance

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counselor to go to college, like

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particularly in high school that they

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asked you like what you're

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going to do. Did you tell them

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like you're going to go study sharks?

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Yeah, always, always. And now that I

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developed this into a

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career, I had a lot of friends and people

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from you know, the school

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bus that that wrote to me on

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Instagram or Facebook and they told me oh

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my god, you end up being a shark

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scientist. You always

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talk about sharks in the school bus. So

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yeah, I think it was not a shocker for

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anybody that oh yeah,

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I ended up being a shark scientist. Yeah,

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I had to ask that. Yeah, a

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lot of people get into high

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school and they're college is one thing

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when you kind of say that

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because you're at least you're in

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college that point but when you're kind

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of like in middle school or

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high school and you're telling

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him you're going to go to shark, the

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reaction from the guidance counselors is

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uh-huh okay, that sounds like it's

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a good one. So you answer those? Yeah,

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sure. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, and Rick

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Cortez, you must know,

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Rick, he did become an astronaut for

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Spain, funny enough. Yeah, I didn't know

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that. He was one of like,

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what was it? Five or seven astronauts in

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the Spanish space program. Wow. One of

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the ones selected and he ended up giving

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up the space program to go study sharks.

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So, good for him. There's no sharks out

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there. No, no, no, no, no, no space

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sharks out there. Of course, it would be

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a title of an interesting movie.

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One of the one of these shark shark

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attack movies sharks from space or I

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guess they have something

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called shark NATO. Well, there's shark

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NATO but there's also shark. How is it

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shark with lasers? There's actually a

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movie where they come from outer space

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and they land in there.

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Aliens is a very old movie. That one is.

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Yeah, a friend of mine showed it to me. I

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didn't know that one. Like old VHS tape

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and it's like it's like from the 80s and

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then the special effects is exactly what

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you would expect from the

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80s. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah.

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Yeah. So, so they when you so he got so

277
01:09:27,750 --> 01:09:29,500
you get through high school and stuff and

278
01:09:29,500 --> 01:09:30,916
you just got this dream for going for

279
01:09:30,916 --> 01:09:32,916
sharks and you went to the universities

280
01:09:32,916 --> 01:09:34,541
you picked to go to do they have a

281
01:09:34,541 --> 01:09:37,541
particularly a program is good program in

282
01:09:37,541 --> 01:09:39,833
marine biology when you went to know it

283
01:09:39,833 --> 01:09:42,958
was actually it was actually not a marine

284
01:09:42,958 --> 01:09:46,083
biology course. It was a biology course

285
01:09:46,083 --> 01:09:50,291
and I felt like I met a scientist

286
01:09:50,291 --> 01:09:52,125
Colombian scientist back in the day and

287
01:09:52,125 --> 01:09:54,166
he he knew that I was

288
01:09:54,166 --> 01:09:54,875
very passionate about sharks.

289
01:09:54,916 --> 01:09:58,125
But I guess his advice and I took it was

290
01:09:58,125 --> 01:10:00,833
why don't you use it or think about it as

291
01:10:00,833 --> 01:10:03,625
a funnel? Why don't you start wide learn

292
01:10:03,625 --> 01:10:05,583
about all these different things and then

293
01:10:05,583 --> 01:10:08,041
you start narrow it down as you as you go

294
01:10:08,041 --> 01:10:10,750
through. I thought it was a good advice.

295
01:10:11,083 --> 01:10:14,250
So I started with biology very little

296
01:10:14,250 --> 01:10:17,916
marine stuff really in biology to this

297
01:10:17,916 --> 01:10:20,791
day. I never took a shark course. I never

298
01:10:20,791 --> 01:10:22,458
been on a shark. I've

299
01:10:22,458 --> 01:10:24,625
given it but I've never.

300
01:10:25,500 --> 01:10:26,958
I've never been the student of a shark

301
01:10:26,958 --> 01:10:29,916
course. So it's always myself just doing

302
01:10:29,916 --> 01:10:34,625
and reading about about about them. And

303
01:10:34,625 --> 01:10:38,666
then and then when I was about to finish

304
01:10:38,666 --> 01:10:42,250
almost a year before I was at home on a

305
01:10:42,250 --> 01:10:44,750
normal weekend and I saw an animal

306
01:10:44,750 --> 01:10:49,750
planet. I saw Dr Gruber on it and he was

307
01:10:49,750 --> 01:10:52,708
talking about his field research station

308
01:10:52,708 --> 01:10:54,166
in Bimini and all these things.

309
01:10:54,500 --> 01:10:55,958
So I started looking at the internet

310
01:10:55,958 --> 01:10:58,041
about it and I realized they had this

311
01:10:58,041 --> 01:11:02,875
volunteer program there. So I run to my

312
01:11:02,875 --> 01:11:07,083
dad's room and I told him I found what I

313
01:11:07,083 --> 01:11:08,916
want to do next semester. I need you to

314
01:11:08,916 --> 01:11:09,916
trust me on this one.

315
01:11:10,625 --> 01:11:14,208
Let's postpone that semester. Just not go

316
01:11:14,208 --> 01:11:16,583
to university for that semester and I

317
01:11:16,583 --> 01:11:19,375
want to spend that semester. Dr Gruber's

318
01:11:19,375 --> 01:11:21,458
field station. He was like, oh, this

319
01:11:21,458 --> 01:11:23,666
sounds crazy. But I would like trust me.

320
01:11:23,666 --> 01:11:25,791
Trust me on this one. This is the right

321
01:11:25,791 --> 01:11:29,041
move. And I applied and I ended up

322
01:11:29,041 --> 01:11:30,500
staying there for like five months.

323
01:11:31,583 --> 01:11:34,250
Wow. Now what year were you in for your

324
01:11:34,250 --> 01:11:35,625
undergrad when you decided

325
01:11:35,625 --> 01:11:37,541
to pause it for a semester?

326
01:11:37,583 --> 01:11:40,541
I was I had a one year left, I think.

327
01:11:41,208 --> 01:11:44,833
Okay. So you were almost almost done. And

328
01:11:44,833 --> 01:11:47,583
then and then while I was there, I met

329
01:11:47,583 --> 01:11:50,291
Tristan Gottridge and Steve Castle and

330
01:11:50,291 --> 01:11:52,583
Kristin Stump. That was like that time

331
01:11:52,583 --> 01:11:55,875
where all of them were the the PhD

332
01:11:55,875 --> 01:11:57,125
students at the station.

333
01:11:57,333 --> 01:11:59,125
Right. So I helped me with all their

334
01:11:59,125 --> 01:12:02,250
research. I ended up convincing Kristin

335
01:12:02,250 --> 01:12:05,125
Stump to to give me a set of her

336
01:12:05,125 --> 01:12:07,583
dissertation so I can do my undergrad on

337
01:12:07,583 --> 01:12:11,416
it. I came back to Columbia convinced us

338
01:12:11,416 --> 01:12:13,375
to a professor of the University in

339
01:12:13,375 --> 01:12:16,916
Columbia to to sign off on it and like

340
01:12:16,916 --> 01:12:19,250
take me under her wing on her lap to

341
01:12:19,250 --> 01:12:19,958
finish this project.

342
01:12:21,083 --> 01:12:25,875
And then I went back to Bimini to collect

343
01:12:25,875 --> 01:12:28,083
more data on the on the P tag on the long

344
01:12:28,083 --> 01:12:30,541
term service that they did with the micro

345
01:12:30,541 --> 01:12:32,500
capture data on the on the

346
01:12:32,500 --> 01:12:33,958
nursery areas of the name sharks.

347
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:40,791
And then with that same professor in in

348
01:12:40,791 --> 01:12:44,250
in Los Angeles in in Columbia we she took

349
01:12:44,250 --> 01:12:47,625
me on to the genetics route. I I almost

350
01:12:47,625 --> 01:12:49,750
felt genetics as an undergrad. I hated

351
01:12:49,750 --> 01:12:55,291
it. Yeah, I I graduated from from

352
01:12:55,291 --> 01:12:58,250
undergrad not wanting to do lab work. I

353
01:12:58,250 --> 01:13:00,750
wanted to be a psychologist and right,

354
01:13:00,750 --> 01:13:02,625
you know, be in the

355
01:13:02,625 --> 01:13:03,833
field and things like that.

356
01:13:04,333 --> 01:13:05,833
And then she took me under her wing and

357
01:13:05,833 --> 01:13:08,250
then kind of like showed me how how

358
01:13:08,250 --> 01:13:11,208
genetics could be applied to for real

359
01:13:11,208 --> 01:13:14,333
powerful things in conservation. I I feel

360
01:13:14,333 --> 01:13:16,333
like when I was an undergrad, nobody

361
01:13:16,333 --> 01:13:19,416
really explained me why or how could we

362
01:13:19,416 --> 01:13:22,291
use it? Right to solve some of the

363
01:13:22,291 --> 01:13:24,625
pricing issues of these for sharks that

364
01:13:24,625 --> 01:13:27,625
that were in my interest and then she she

365
01:13:27,625 --> 01:13:29,750
showed me and and here we are.

366
01:13:31,541 --> 01:13:34,291
The rest is history. Yeah, here we are.

367
01:13:35,541 --> 01:13:38,541
Yeah. So hot. So you got through. So you

368
01:13:38,541 --> 01:13:40,208
got through your master's degree on

369
01:13:40,208 --> 01:13:43,250
worked on sharks and include. Yes. Yes.

370
01:13:43,375 --> 01:13:47,666
So I ended up doing the genetic

371
01:13:47,666 --> 01:13:50,708
population structure of the pelagic

372
01:13:50,708 --> 01:13:52,916
pressure in the Pacific Ocean.

373
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:57,000
It was a pretty cool idea because when

374
01:13:57,000 --> 01:14:01,250
when we started it, we partner up with

375
01:14:01,250 --> 01:14:04,541
Dr. John Hyde, the southwestern fisheries

376
01:14:04,541 --> 01:14:08,291
center in La Jolla. And he had he had

377
01:14:08,291 --> 01:14:10,625
samples from Taiwan from Hawaii from

378
01:14:10,625 --> 01:14:13,291
every everywhere else. And we had samples

379
01:14:13,291 --> 01:14:15,000
from Columbia and Ecuador and when we put

380
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:16,625
this the data set together for

381
01:14:16,625 --> 01:14:19,833
microsatellite and and mitochondrial

382
01:14:19,833 --> 01:14:21,958
genetic markers we realized that

383
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:27,000
even though you you grab a a pelagic

384
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:29,458
pressure in Ecuador or one in Taiwan, if

385
01:14:29,458 --> 01:14:30,958
you see it, you look at them, they're the

386
01:14:30,958 --> 01:14:32,541
same. The pelagic pressure, they look the

387
01:14:32,541 --> 01:14:34,708
same. Nothing in particular distinguish

388
01:14:34,708 --> 01:14:36,541
them. But when you look into the

389
01:14:36,541 --> 01:14:38,625
genetics, both mitochondrial and nuclear,

390
01:14:39,291 --> 01:14:41,166
they are completely different. They

391
01:14:41,166 --> 01:14:43,041
they've been separated for millions of

392
01:14:43,041 --> 01:14:45,333
years. There's no contemporary gene flow.

393
01:14:46,083 --> 01:14:48,708
So when we saw that data, it was a little

394
01:14:48,708 --> 01:14:52,041
bit like it was blown away by it. And

395
01:14:52,041 --> 01:14:54,500
yeah, we ended up publishing that that

396
01:14:54,500 --> 01:14:56,916
paper. And and that was kind of like my

397
01:14:56,916 --> 01:15:01,958
first my first approach with genetics.

398
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:07,625
Okay, okay. So that so you got through so

399
01:15:07,625 --> 01:15:09,666
you get through your master's degree,

400
01:15:09,666 --> 01:15:12,125
then how did you happen to pick Stony

401
01:15:12,125 --> 01:15:16,208
Brook for your for your PhD? That was, I

402
01:15:16,208 --> 01:15:19,291
think, like going back in, like thinking

403
01:15:19,291 --> 01:15:21,250
backwards. I think that was one of the

404
01:15:21,250 --> 01:15:21,958
turning points for my career.

405
01:15:21,958 --> 01:15:27,583
So Dr. Damien Chapman was the external

406
01:15:27,583 --> 01:15:30,291
advisor for my master's student. I knew

407
01:15:30,291 --> 01:15:33,291
Damien from my bimini days. Okay, so I

408
01:15:33,291 --> 01:15:36,208
knew him for a long time ago. Okay. And I

409
01:15:36,208 --> 01:15:37,916
told him, Hey, you know what, I want to

410
01:15:37,916 --> 01:15:39,416
do a PhD with you. And he was like, Yeah,

411
01:15:39,416 --> 01:15:41,041
I want you to do a PhD with me. So I was

412
01:15:41,041 --> 01:15:43,708
like, Okay, that's awesome. Yeah, perfect

413
01:15:43,708 --> 01:15:45,625
scenario. Yeah. And then when we started

414
01:15:45,625 --> 01:15:47,375
talking, he he mentioned

415
01:15:47,375 --> 01:15:49,958
that he had projects in Belize.

416
01:15:50,958 --> 01:15:55,333
That were with the local fishermen very

417
01:15:55,333 --> 01:15:58,166
field oriented and kind of like where I

418
01:15:58,166 --> 01:16:00,125
what I thought I wanted to take my

419
01:16:00,125 --> 01:16:03,250
career. So that sounds like an

420
01:16:03,250 --> 01:16:05,125
interesting project. And he was like, I

421
01:16:05,125 --> 01:16:08,041
also have another one in Hong Kong. And I

422
01:16:08,041 --> 01:16:09,958
was like, Oh, tell me more about it. So

423
01:16:09,958 --> 01:16:11,875
when he mentioned that they were starting

424
01:16:11,875 --> 01:16:13,750
to do the surveys in the

425
01:16:13,750 --> 01:16:14,958
markets and these things.

426
01:16:14,958 --> 01:16:19,125
I realized that it was a lot of heavy

427
01:16:19,125 --> 01:16:21,833
work in the lab, not as much as in the

428
01:16:21,833 --> 01:16:24,041
field with the sharks. But I also

429
01:16:24,041 --> 01:16:26,125
realized that since Shelly Clark, nobody

430
01:16:26,125 --> 01:16:27,833
has ever done anything on the fin tree.

431
01:16:28,333 --> 01:16:29,416
So there was a major

432
01:16:29,416 --> 01:16:29,958
scientific gap there.

433
01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:33,958
So it got me thinking, I was like, Okay,

434
01:16:33,958 --> 01:16:36,250
yeah, I can do the ecology side, which

435
01:16:36,250 --> 01:16:38,333
is, you know, the fun part and being in

436
01:16:38,333 --> 01:16:40,666
Belize and all that, or I can become a

437
01:16:40,666 --> 01:16:46,875
lab rat. But but potentially turning

438
01:16:46,875 --> 01:16:49,833
things, you know, for like having a lot

439
01:16:49,833 --> 01:16:52,125
of like groundbreaking science coming out

440
01:16:52,125 --> 01:16:54,791
of that. So I took on that one. And yeah,

441
01:16:54,791 --> 01:16:55,958
it, I think was one of the best decisions I ever made.

442
01:16:55,958 --> 01:17:01,541
That's a big decision to do, you know,

443
01:17:01,541 --> 01:17:03,666
not go in the field. I mean, growing up,

444
01:17:03,875 --> 01:17:05,958
you know, always being like, I want to be

445
01:17:05,958 --> 01:17:08,000
with sharks, I want to, you know, learn

446
01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:09,625
about them, learn about the behaviors,

447
01:17:09,916 --> 01:17:12,958
learn about their ecology, especially as

448
01:17:12,958 --> 01:17:15,375
a young graduate student, that's a big

449
01:17:15,375 --> 01:17:17,125
decision to make to be like, no, I'm

450
01:17:17,125 --> 01:17:18,416
gonna be allowed, but I'm gonna, I'm

451
01:17:18,416 --> 01:17:20,708
gonna pick something that could have some

452
01:17:20,708 --> 01:17:23,250
pretty groundbreaking, you know, research

453
01:17:23,250 --> 01:17:23,958
that comes out of it that could help the conservation trade.

454
01:17:23,958 --> 01:17:28,833
There's still that, like, I don't know if

455
01:17:28,833 --> 01:17:30,125
it's selfish or not selfish, but there's

456
01:17:30,125 --> 01:17:31,958
still that need to go into the field and

457
01:17:31,958 --> 01:17:33,833
that want to go into the field. What was

458
01:17:33,833 --> 01:17:36,625
that reason that you're like, no, I'm

459
01:17:36,625 --> 01:17:38,791
gonna, I'm gonna do this because even

460
01:17:38,791 --> 01:17:40,166
though I'm in the lab so much, like it

461
01:17:40,166 --> 01:17:41,916
was it was it the conservation outcome

462
01:17:41,916 --> 01:17:43,125
that could come out of it? Like, did you

463
01:17:43,125 --> 01:17:45,166
see? Did you foresee that happening?

464
01:17:45,500 --> 01:17:46,916
Yeah, or did you question that at all?

465
01:17:46,916 --> 01:17:50,791
No, no, no, I, I, the project was so well

466
01:17:50,791 --> 01:17:51,958
set up for the next few years.

467
01:17:52,958 --> 01:17:56,875
Set up and, and as I said, like, I've

468
01:17:56,875 --> 01:17:59,125
always been reading all the signs that

469
01:17:59,125 --> 01:18:00,750
come up and all the signs, but a lot of

470
01:18:00,750 --> 01:18:03,000
the signs that comes out and, and trying

471
01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:06,083
to keep track of what people were doing.

472
01:18:06,541 --> 01:18:08,500
And yes, I said, like, since Shelly

473
01:18:08,500 --> 01:18:10,041
Clark, there was very little information

474
01:18:10,041 --> 01:18:14,500
on the shark fin trade, which, which was

475
01:18:14,500 --> 01:18:15,791
one of the largest

476
01:18:15,791 --> 01:18:16,958
conservation problems out there.

477
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:20,708
And there, we had at least 10 years of

478
01:18:20,708 --> 01:18:23,833
no, like major papers on those markets.

479
01:18:23,833 --> 01:18:27,375
Right. So I quickly identified that was,

480
01:18:27,375 --> 01:18:30,250
that was something that, that would, I

481
01:18:30,250 --> 01:18:34,541
would enter on each, uh, an each area of,

482
01:18:34,541 --> 01:18:37,833
of the conservation of sharks that, that

483
01:18:37,833 --> 01:18:41,416
needed somebody dedicated on it. Um, so

484
01:18:41,416 --> 01:18:43,083
I, yeah, I, I never

485
01:18:43,083 --> 01:18:43,958
looked back after that.

486
01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:47,625
How, how did it work? How did it work

487
01:18:47,625 --> 01:18:49,708
when you went to, went, did you work with

488
01:18:49,708 --> 01:18:51,875
people in Hong Kong to get around,

489
01:18:51,875 --> 01:18:53,708
obviously going to the markets, unless

490
01:18:53,708 --> 01:18:55,375
you're, unless you speak Mandarin, we

491
01:18:55,375 --> 01:18:56,750
just didn't pick up on that.

492
01:18:58,250 --> 01:19:04,416
No idea. So yeah, we, we have

493
01:19:04,416 --> 01:19:06,375
collaborators in Hong Kong. One of our

494
01:19:06,375 --> 01:19:08,583
largest collaborations is with a

495
01:19:08,583 --> 01:19:11,125
stanchier from bloom in, oh

496
01:19:11,125 --> 01:19:11,958
yeah, in Hong Kong. He's been on.

497
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:15,875
Yeah, he's been on our show. Yeah. So

498
01:19:15,875 --> 01:19:17,458
he's been in our project since the

499
01:19:17,458 --> 01:19:20,166
inception and basically the project runs

500
01:19:20,166 --> 01:19:23,166
because of him. Um, so he goes through

501
01:19:23,166 --> 01:19:24,875
the markets and he's the one that buys

502
01:19:24,875 --> 01:19:28,166
the samples. And when I, when I used to

503
01:19:28,166 --> 01:19:29,708
go there, he was the one showing me

504
01:19:29,708 --> 01:19:32,208
around and making sure that I was, you

505
01:19:32,208 --> 01:19:34,541
know, okay, as a young Colombian in the

506
01:19:34,541 --> 01:19:37,750
middle of Hong Kong. Um, so he was

507
01:19:37,750 --> 01:19:37,958
definitely a lot of help.

508
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:42,875
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I had a similar

509
01:19:42,875 --> 01:19:44,541
experience when I was a PhD student, I

510
01:19:44,541 --> 01:19:46,666
went, I lived in Taiwan for three months,

511
01:19:47,166 --> 01:19:48,750
going to all the markets there. And so I

512
01:19:48,750 --> 01:19:52,000
know how it is to try to like navigate in

513
01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:53,708
Chinese when you don't really speak

514
01:19:53,708 --> 01:19:55,916
Chinese at all. Try to learn. Yeah. The

515
01:19:55,916 --> 01:19:57,291
good thing is in Hong Kong, they speak

516
01:19:57,291 --> 01:20:01,375
English very fluently. So yeah, like

517
01:20:01,375 --> 01:20:03,000
language wise was not a much of a

518
01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:06,625
problem. But also then back in 2018, I

519
01:20:06,625 --> 01:20:06,958
moved in, I moved to Hong Kong.

520
01:20:07,958 --> 01:20:10,458
I moved to Hong Kong for an entire year.

521
01:20:10,791 --> 01:20:13,500
Oh, wow. Yeah. So before, before since I

522
01:20:13,500 --> 01:20:17,625
started in 2015, I was going like two or

523
01:20:17,625 --> 01:20:20,500
three times a year. Yeah, or for the

524
01:20:20,500 --> 01:20:23,250
collection of all the data. But then in

525
01:20:23,250 --> 01:20:26,666
2018, we developed these quick real time

526
01:20:26,666 --> 01:20:30,041
PCR that identify all the site is this

527
01:20:30,041 --> 01:20:34,125
species back then. Um, and I moved to

528
01:20:34,125 --> 01:20:36,958
Hong Kong to basically teach the local authorities how to use it.

529
01:20:36,958 --> 01:20:40,833
And I went to inspections of large

530
01:20:40,833 --> 01:20:43,250
containers with them. And we ended up

531
01:20:43,250 --> 01:20:46,125
busting a bunch of, of shark beans and

532
01:20:46,125 --> 01:20:48,458
all that. So it was, it was a big

533
01:20:48,458 --> 01:20:52,833
cultural and yeah, an academic experience

534
01:20:52,833 --> 01:20:55,083
more the cultural because I had to, I had

535
01:20:55,083 --> 01:20:59,625
to, as a Colombian non native in Hong

536
01:20:59,625 --> 01:21:02,000
Kong, I had to move there for a full year

537
01:21:02,000 --> 01:21:04,750
and work with the, basically the Hong

538
01:21:04,750 --> 01:21:05,958
Kong Government at a time to, to try to, to, to, to have a, to have a, to have a, to have a, to have a.

539
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:10,375
to apply this new technique to them.

540
01:21:10,625 --> 01:21:12,250
So it was a lot of--

541
01:21:12,666 --> 01:21:13,250
A lot of challenges.

542
01:21:13,291 --> 01:21:15,083
A lot of challenges, but yeah.

543
01:21:15,625 --> 01:21:17,541
Now they're using it and they're

544
01:21:17,958 --> 01:21:19,458
ramping up their inspections

545
01:21:19,791 --> 01:21:22,041
and they're combating a new trade.

546
01:21:22,041 --> 01:21:22,291
That's great.

547
01:21:23,750 --> 01:21:26,250
That's a phenomenal experience.

548
01:21:27,291 --> 01:21:28,541
Yeah, for sure.

549
01:21:28,791 --> 01:21:30,083
It's interesting to go to Hong Kong

550
01:21:30,083 --> 01:21:32,041
where it's pretty much the home,

551
01:21:32,250 --> 01:21:34,000
you can almost consider it like the home

552
01:21:34,208 --> 01:21:36,000
of the imports of the

553
01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:37,041
shark fin trade, right?

554
01:21:37,041 --> 01:21:38,791
It's a big hub for that.

555
01:21:39,416 --> 01:21:41,458
And to go there and to

556
01:21:41,458 --> 01:21:42,833
work with the government

557
01:21:42,833 --> 01:21:44,375
and the police on

558
01:21:44,375 --> 01:21:47,041
figuring out what's contraband,

559
01:21:47,041 --> 01:21:48,833
what's not, it's not

560
01:21:48,833 --> 01:21:51,250
a very safe endeavor.

561
01:21:51,500 --> 01:21:52,500
Like it can be dangerous

562
01:21:52,500 --> 01:21:53,750
when you're going like,

563
01:21:54,208 --> 01:21:56,333
did you ever feel like

564
01:21:56,333 --> 01:21:57,333
you were ever in danger

565
01:21:58,000 --> 01:21:59,041
when going and

566
01:21:59,041 --> 01:22:00,041
looking at these containers

567
01:22:00,041 --> 01:22:00,750
or looking at these

568
01:22:00,750 --> 01:22:02,250
places that had shark fins?

569
01:22:02,916 --> 01:22:04,416
Because we've heard the stories

570
01:22:04,708 --> 01:22:06,291
and it can be very scary,

571
01:22:06,291 --> 01:22:07,291
especially for researchers

572
01:22:07,291 --> 01:22:08,458
who are not used to

573
01:22:08,458 --> 01:22:09,833
being enthralled in that

574
01:22:09,916 --> 01:22:12,875
and judging just based on the information

575
01:22:12,875 --> 01:22:14,041
you provide us too,

576
01:22:14,583 --> 01:22:15,416
having working with

577
01:22:15,416 --> 01:22:16,791
Interpol and so forth,

578
01:22:16,791 --> 01:22:17,708
which we'll probably get into,

579
01:22:18,750 --> 01:22:20,541
you're dealing with authorities,

580
01:22:20,791 --> 01:22:21,500
you're dealing with police

581
01:22:21,750 --> 01:22:23,625
and obviously some police

582
01:22:23,625 --> 01:22:24,916
activity can be dangerous.

583
01:22:24,916 --> 01:22:26,875
Did you ever feel that danger

584
01:22:26,875 --> 01:22:28,666
or did you ever feel like worried

585
01:22:28,875 --> 01:22:30,375
about what the work you were doing

586
01:22:30,500 --> 01:22:31,791
and how it affected the

587
01:22:31,791 --> 01:22:32,875
quote unquote business

588
01:22:33,166 --> 01:22:34,291
of this illegal activity?

589
01:22:34,833 --> 01:22:35,041
Right.

590
01:22:37,375 --> 01:22:39,166
So when we started opening

591
01:22:39,166 --> 01:22:40,291
the containers and all that,

592
01:22:40,291 --> 01:22:42,291
it didn't seem dangerous at all.

593
01:22:42,291 --> 01:22:45,666
We were in government facilities and it

594
01:22:45,666 --> 01:22:46,666
was not in the street

595
01:22:46,666 --> 01:22:47,500
or anything like that.

596
01:22:47,916 --> 01:22:49,166
So definitely safe.

597
01:22:51,125 --> 01:22:52,750
And I'm just the provider of the tool.

598
01:22:53,041 --> 01:22:54,125
I don't bust people.

599
01:22:54,125 --> 01:22:55,166
I don't arrest people.

600
01:22:55,458 --> 01:22:56,416
I'm not a judge.

601
01:22:56,666 --> 01:22:58,375
I'm not the, I just, you know,

602
01:22:58,750 --> 01:22:59,666
just providing

603
01:22:59,666 --> 01:23:02,083
scientific advice actually,

604
01:23:02,541 --> 01:23:03,958
and the tool itself.

605
01:23:05,250 --> 01:23:06,541
But there was one time when

606
01:23:06,541 --> 01:23:07,541
I was living in Hong Kong,

607
01:23:08,208 --> 01:23:10,333
that once I was able to convince them

608
01:23:10,333 --> 01:23:11,250
that the tool worked

609
01:23:11,541 --> 01:23:13,291
and it was efficient, fast,

610
01:23:14,208 --> 01:23:16,083
it tell them what it needed to know,

611
01:23:16,625 --> 01:23:18,250
then the authorities asked me

612
01:23:18,375 --> 01:23:20,500
if I could develop something

613
01:23:20,500 --> 01:23:22,291
similar for the European Eel,

614
01:23:23,291 --> 01:23:24,958
which is all these

615
01:23:24,958 --> 01:23:26,541
also like a major, major

616
01:23:26,958 --> 01:23:28,166
wildlife trafficking issue.

617
01:23:29,083 --> 01:23:29,916
I don't know anything

618
01:23:29,916 --> 01:23:31,708
about eels or at the time,

619
01:23:31,708 --> 01:23:33,208
I didn't know a thing about eels,

620
01:23:33,791 --> 01:23:35,500
but the scientific

621
01:23:35,500 --> 01:23:37,208
principles to develop the tool

622
01:23:37,208 --> 01:23:37,833
were the same.

623
01:23:39,041 --> 01:23:39,625
Just the applied.

624
01:23:39,958 --> 01:23:41,666
So I, while I was living

625
01:23:41,666 --> 01:23:44,041
there, I did all the work.

626
01:23:44,250 --> 01:23:45,541
I designed the primers.

627
01:23:45,541 --> 01:23:47,166
I was able to bring some,

628
01:23:47,625 --> 01:23:49,916
to some samples to Hong Kong

629
01:23:49,916 --> 01:23:50,958
so I could work on

630
01:23:50,958 --> 01:23:52,291
target and on target species.

631
01:23:53,083 --> 01:23:54,291
And eventually like in

632
01:23:54,291 --> 01:23:55,708
November, I told them,

633
01:23:55,750 --> 01:23:58,458
I submitted the paper is accepted.

634
01:23:58,750 --> 01:23:59,791
It's good to go.

635
01:24:01,708 --> 01:24:03,041
I wrote to the Department of

636
01:24:03,041 --> 01:24:04,291
Justice of Hong Kong a letter

637
01:24:04,791 --> 01:24:09,125
and attach the paper to it.

638
01:24:09,458 --> 01:24:11,541
This is the scientific principle on it.

639
01:24:12,166 --> 01:24:14,000
They accepted it and eventually in

640
01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:15,333
December on a Saturday,

641
01:24:15,333 --> 01:24:16,500
I think I was at home,

642
01:24:16,916 --> 01:24:17,750
at home in Hong Kong,

643
01:24:18,166 --> 01:24:19,375
in my little tiny apartment.

644
01:24:20,250 --> 01:24:22,875
And they called me like at 5 p.m.

645
01:24:23,041 --> 01:24:24,666
telling me that I needed to

646
01:24:24,666 --> 01:24:26,166
grab the real time PCR machine,

647
01:24:26,166 --> 01:24:28,666
which was really small and run to the

648
01:24:28,666 --> 01:24:29,958
airport as fast as I could,

649
01:24:29,958 --> 01:24:31,500
because there were two smugglers of eels.

650
01:24:32,541 --> 01:24:33,541
And they wanted to test

651
01:24:33,541 --> 01:24:34,833
this thing because before,

652
01:24:35,083 --> 01:24:36,791
before the technology was put in place,

653
01:24:37,291 --> 01:24:38,083
the only thing they could

654
01:24:38,083 --> 01:24:41,041
do was let the smogger go,

655
01:24:41,416 --> 01:24:43,666
take on the eels, but

656
01:24:43,666 --> 01:24:44,916
the crime still unpunished,

657
01:24:44,916 --> 01:24:45,708
unpunished, right?

658
01:24:45,708 --> 01:24:47,041
Because they didn't have the evidence of

659
01:24:47,041 --> 01:24:49,583
something like wrongdoing on time.

660
01:24:50,583 --> 01:24:53,416
So I took the train to the airport, I

661
01:24:53,416 --> 01:24:54,291
arrived there and the

662
01:24:54,291 --> 01:24:55,583
two smugglers were there.

663
01:24:56,916 --> 01:24:58,208
And we saw you come out.

664
01:24:58,250 --> 01:24:59,333
Yeah, they saw me.

665
01:24:59,708 --> 01:25:00,500
I came in.

666
01:25:01,958 --> 01:25:04,541
We opened the the bags and they were full

667
01:25:04,541 --> 01:25:06,375
of little plastic bags full

668
01:25:06,375 --> 01:25:08,500
of larvae of European eel.

669
01:25:09,083 --> 01:25:10,208
We ended up running the test.

670
01:25:10,541 --> 01:25:12,583
All of them ended up being European eel

671
01:25:12,583 --> 01:25:16,333
and the two guys went to jail for it.

672
01:25:16,833 --> 01:25:20,958
So it was the first time in Hong Kong

673
01:25:20,958 --> 01:25:22,750
history that they were able to do a

674
01:25:22,750 --> 01:25:24,625
prosecution of an eel smuggler.

675
01:25:26,041 --> 01:25:28,291
And and it was funny because one of the

676
01:25:28,291 --> 01:25:29,541
smugglers was Austrian.

677
01:25:29,875 --> 01:25:33,208
He he wrote a letter in German because he

678
01:25:33,208 --> 01:25:34,083
didn't speak English.

679
01:25:34,833 --> 01:25:36,791
And then the local

680
01:25:36,791 --> 01:25:38,291
authorities knew I knew German.

681
01:25:38,291 --> 01:25:41,041
So I had to read the letter to them and

682
01:25:41,041 --> 01:25:42,791
kind of like talk to the guy and try to

683
01:25:42,791 --> 01:25:44,041
translate what he was saying.

684
01:25:44,375 --> 01:25:47,708
It was a whole mess. But yeah, like I

685
01:25:47,708 --> 01:25:50,250
said, that was the only time that I felt

686
01:25:50,250 --> 01:25:53,833
like, hey, I'm I'm kind of like helping

687
01:25:53,833 --> 01:25:56,083
the local authorities to read the letter

688
01:25:56,083 --> 01:25:57,208
from the smugglers hand.

689
01:25:57,375 --> 01:25:58,583
That was a little tricky.

690
01:26:01,250 --> 01:26:02,916
But I've never felt unsafe

691
01:26:02,916 --> 01:26:05,666
other than that situation.

692
01:26:06,541 --> 01:26:08,333
Yeah, for sure. I have to ask, too.

693
01:26:08,500 --> 01:26:11,125
You know, you're from Colombia. You live

694
01:26:11,125 --> 01:26:13,625
in the U.S. You live in the U.S. at the

695
01:26:13,625 --> 01:26:15,708
time. You live in Hong Kong.

696
01:26:17,208 --> 01:26:18,250
Where did you learn German?

697
01:26:19,541 --> 01:26:23,041
I grew up in Germany.

698
01:26:23,416 --> 01:26:25,500
I call in Bogota, but there was a German

699
01:26:25,500 --> 01:26:27,583
school there. And like my dad and my mom

700
01:26:27,583 --> 01:26:28,500
got me to German

701
01:26:28,500 --> 01:26:30,000
school. So I learned German.

702
01:26:30,916 --> 01:26:32,333
Yeah, that's so cool.

703
01:26:32,375 --> 01:26:35,375
Yeah, that's really it's super

704
01:26:35,375 --> 01:26:38,208
interesting. Is that pretty common? I

705
01:26:38,208 --> 01:26:40,666
think I think Pancho, you know Pancho,

706
01:26:40,666 --> 01:26:43,250
right? He was in Chile a little bit. He

707
01:26:43,250 --> 01:26:45,041
went to a German school as well.

708
01:26:45,333 --> 01:26:47,833
And so he's kind of during the one of is

709
01:26:47,833 --> 01:26:49,125
that fairly common in South

710
01:26:49,125 --> 01:26:50,083
America? A lot of the country.

711
01:26:50,083 --> 01:26:52,458
Yeah, there's several German schools in

712
01:26:52,458 --> 01:26:55,083
Peru and Ecuador, Colombia and Colombia.

713
01:26:55,083 --> 01:26:57,625
There's four. OK, there's one

714
01:26:57,625 --> 01:26:59,125
in Lima and are keeping Peru.

715
01:26:59,375 --> 01:27:01,250
There's one in Santiago, Chile. So

716
01:27:01,250 --> 01:27:03,833
there's German schools in the in large

717
01:27:03,833 --> 01:27:07,625
cities in South America. OK, OK. Yeah, I

718
01:27:07,625 --> 01:27:08,083
just kind of curious.

719
01:27:08,375 --> 01:27:10,083
Argentina is heavily influenced by German

720
01:27:10,083 --> 01:27:12,833
language. Yeah, is it? Yeah, they have

721
01:27:12,833 --> 01:27:17,041
like historical attachments. Yeah, yeah.

722
01:27:17,250 --> 01:27:19,333
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so how with all

723
01:27:19,333 --> 01:27:20,791
this, how did you get

724
01:27:20,791 --> 01:27:21,333
hooked up with Interpol?

725
01:27:22,375 --> 01:27:26,250
All this work of this work with the

726
01:27:26,250 --> 01:27:29,875
Wildlife Forensics and just collaborating

727
01:27:29,875 --> 01:27:32,916
with the local authorities. So they they

728
01:27:32,916 --> 01:27:36,416
caught here of what I was doing. A few

729
01:27:36,416 --> 01:27:38,666
years back, I presented the like a new

730
01:27:38,666 --> 01:27:40,916
tool that is about to be

731
01:27:40,916 --> 01:27:42,166
submitted for publication.

732
01:27:43,375 --> 01:27:48,416
I went to the Interpol headquarters to

733
01:27:48,416 --> 01:27:51,625
present it there in a like in a working

734
01:27:51,625 --> 01:27:53,125
group that they have for League of

735
01:27:53,125 --> 01:27:56,250
Wildlife trade. And yeah, one thing that

736
01:27:56,250 --> 01:27:57,291
to the other one. And

737
01:27:57,291 --> 01:27:58,333
I think that the field.

738
01:27:59,375 --> 01:28:03,000
I entered the Wildlife Forensics field

739
01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:05,208
because of sharks, but but the whole

740
01:28:05,208 --> 01:28:07,291
field of all these different species are

741
01:28:07,291 --> 01:28:11,458
affected by it. It's super large. And

742
01:28:11,458 --> 01:28:13,666
there's a need for this kind of quick

743
01:28:13,666 --> 01:28:16,916
tools to to identify legal illegally

744
01:28:16,916 --> 01:28:18,333
traded animals and parts of animals all over the world.

745
01:28:18,375 --> 01:28:22,375
So so it's a it's a very interesting

746
01:28:22,375 --> 01:28:26,750
field and I with with what I've developed

747
01:28:26,750 --> 01:28:28,416
for sharks. I think there's a lot of

748
01:28:28,416 --> 01:28:30,208
synergies and things that I can

749
01:28:30,208 --> 01:28:33,291
contribute to it as well. You also do you

750
01:28:33,291 --> 01:28:36,583
do you work on freshwater turtles. Yeah,

751
01:28:36,583 --> 01:28:38,625
so in Colombia again, it was exactly the

752
01:28:38,625 --> 01:28:41,083
same as the Hong Kong example where they

753
01:28:41,083 --> 01:28:43,333
are you're doing all these, you know,

754
01:28:43,583 --> 01:28:46,208
quick tools to identify these things. Can

755
01:28:46,208 --> 01:28:47,375
you help us with this freshwater turtles?

756
01:28:48,375 --> 01:28:50,041
It's called the Matamata turtle. It has

757
01:28:50,041 --> 01:28:52,750
like a snorkel as a nose and smiley face

758
01:28:52,750 --> 01:28:56,583
is super cute. Nice. And they smuggle

759
01:28:56,583 --> 01:28:58,791
them from Colombia through the Amazon

760
01:28:58,791 --> 01:29:01,583
into Peru and then they're

761
01:29:01,583 --> 01:29:03,333
sent abroad for the pet trade.

762
01:29:03,375 --> 01:29:07,875
But a lot of any any of those animals

763
01:29:07,875 --> 01:29:09,875
coming out of Colombia is illegal. But

764
01:29:09,875 --> 01:29:12,208
when they catch them, they're alive and

765
01:29:12,208 --> 01:29:14,666
they have to know where they came from in

766
01:29:14,666 --> 01:29:17,375
order to to put them back to location or

767
01:29:17,375 --> 01:29:20,166
region of origin. But if you want to do

768
01:29:20,166 --> 01:29:22,708
that the conventional way, it can take

769
01:29:22,708 --> 01:29:25,125
weeks to months. So you have to keep all

770
01:29:25,125 --> 01:29:25,333
those turtles alive.

771
01:29:25,375 --> 01:29:29,291
They might get the my dying captivity,

772
01:29:29,291 --> 01:29:31,916
they get sick and then you're releasing

773
01:29:31,916 --> 01:29:33,625
sick animals into the wild, which is not

774
01:29:33,625 --> 01:29:37,583
good. If you're also releasing one one

775
01:29:37,583 --> 01:29:39,375
set of those turtles into the wrong

776
01:29:39,375 --> 01:29:41,000
population, then you're starting messing

777
01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:43,583
with evolutionary forces like outbreeding

778
01:29:43,583 --> 01:29:46,083
depression and all that. So it's it's

779
01:29:46,083 --> 01:29:47,666
delicate to know where you are

780
01:29:47,666 --> 01:29:50,375
reintroducing those animals and and we

781
01:29:50,375 --> 01:29:51,333
develop a similar tool again.

782
01:29:51,375 --> 01:29:54,791
The principles are the same. It's just

783
01:29:54,791 --> 01:29:57,125
you need to tweak a few things here and

784
01:29:57,125 --> 01:29:59,916
there. And the result was a test that

785
01:29:59,916 --> 01:30:01,416
within two hours, I can tell you where

786
01:30:01,416 --> 01:30:03,916
the turtle came from. So they didn't need

787
01:30:03,916 --> 01:30:06,416
to keep those those turtles and captivity

788
01:30:06,416 --> 01:30:08,416
that you just read, like put them back

789
01:30:08,416 --> 01:30:09,333
where they came from within hours.

790
01:30:10,375 --> 01:30:14,250
Okay, so now now to explain how the

791
01:30:14,250 --> 01:30:15,458
turtles that you want to make sure they

792
01:30:15,458 --> 01:30:17,083
put them back in the same spot. So

793
01:30:17,083 --> 01:30:18,750
there's obviously a high conservation

794
01:30:18,750 --> 01:30:20,875
concern. So that's going to lead me to an

795
01:30:20,875 --> 01:30:24,250
off the wall question here. So you have

796
01:30:24,250 --> 01:30:26,833
an issue in Colombia with hippopotamus

797
01:30:26,833 --> 01:30:27,333
that are in the rivers that.

798
01:30:28,375 --> 01:30:33,750
And I didn't I didn't realize that till a

799
01:30:33,750 --> 01:30:35,125
few years ago when I was actually in

800
01:30:35,125 --> 01:30:38,708
Colombia and I heard about all the about

801
01:30:38,708 --> 01:30:40,416
all the hippopotamus down there. If

802
01:30:40,416 --> 01:30:42,125
people don't know, they can check it out.

803
01:30:42,125 --> 01:30:45,083
But it's a Pablo Escobar famous drug

804
01:30:45,083 --> 01:30:46,875
dealer from the 80s had it

805
01:30:46,875 --> 01:30:47,333
had his own wildlife reserve.

806
01:30:47,375 --> 01:30:51,333
And one of the things that happened was

807
01:30:51,333 --> 01:30:54,625
he let all the hippopotamus go into the

808
01:30:54,625 --> 01:30:57,125
river, which I see is it a potentially

809
01:30:57,125 --> 01:31:00,166
catastrophic environmental disaster if

810
01:31:00,166 --> 01:31:00,916
those things really get

811
01:31:00,916 --> 01:31:02,250
out into the Amazon basin.

812
01:31:04,916 --> 01:31:05,333
What's can you tell talk a little bit about that?

813
01:31:05,541 --> 01:31:12,500
It's, I don't, I know almost as much as

814
01:31:12,500 --> 01:31:17,541
you do. And I agree that so there's a big

815
01:31:17,541 --> 01:31:19,416
debate in Colombia about what to do with

816
01:31:19,416 --> 01:31:22,125
those with those animals. Obviously, you

817
01:31:22,125 --> 01:31:26,083
cannot reintroduce 80 adult hippopotamus

818
01:31:26,083 --> 01:31:26,333
back to Africa is just not an option anymore.

819
01:31:26,375 --> 01:31:34,916
And then there's the kind of like the

820
01:31:34,916 --> 01:31:38,916
animal welfare camp that rightfully so

821
01:31:38,916 --> 01:31:41,250
think about like, why are you going to

822
01:31:41,250 --> 01:31:44,375
execute all those animals? Right. But on

823
01:31:44,375 --> 01:31:46,958
the other side, you have to think about

824
01:31:46,958 --> 01:31:49,083
the local fauna that they

825
01:31:49,083 --> 01:31:50,666
were not the you know, the

826
01:31:52,625 --> 01:31:54,750
they're the real victims of all this. So

827
01:31:54,750 --> 01:31:57,041
yeah, there's this debate on what to do.

828
01:31:57,041 --> 01:31:59,041
Should you shoot them? Should you keep

829
01:31:59,041 --> 01:32:01,125
them in captivity somewhere? But how are

830
01:32:01,125 --> 01:32:03,208
you going to even catch all those

831
01:32:03,208 --> 01:32:05,458
hippopotamus? Where's the money coming

832
01:32:05,458 --> 01:32:08,416
from? So it's a it's a big debate. But

833
01:32:08,416 --> 01:32:11,916
I'm with Dave. It's it's it's an

834
01:32:11,916 --> 01:32:13,166
ecological disaster

835
01:32:13,166 --> 01:32:14,833
in the making for sure.

836
01:32:15,375 --> 01:32:17,500
Yeah, I mean, I know when I was down

837
01:32:17,500 --> 01:32:21,166
there in Colombia, they had an IUCN

838
01:32:21,166 --> 01:32:23,583
workshop they had they were talking. We

839
01:32:23,583 --> 01:32:26,500
were talking about it. My first

840
01:32:26,500 --> 01:32:28,333
impression is just shoot them just, you

841
01:32:28,333 --> 01:32:30,208
know, they're not native. And it's going

842
01:32:30,208 --> 01:32:31,708
to be a disaster there. But I know

843
01:32:31,708 --> 01:32:33,083
there's a group. There's groups down

844
01:32:33,083 --> 01:32:33,708
there that don't want

845
01:32:33,708 --> 01:32:36,333
them euthanized. Yeah, yeah.

846
01:32:36,375 --> 01:32:39,083
I don't know how I don't know. Man, I

847
01:32:39,083 --> 01:32:40,958
mean, the habitat having lived in Africa,

848
01:32:40,958 --> 01:32:43,166
the habitats great for those hippos. I

849
01:32:43,166 --> 01:32:45,583
could just see them exploding population

850
01:32:45,583 --> 01:32:48,833
wise. And I don't again, I don't know the

851
01:32:48,833 --> 01:32:50,666
full extent of the area they cover. But

852
01:32:50,666 --> 01:32:52,583
man, I don't think I think if you don't

853
01:32:52,583 --> 01:32:54,041
get rid of those things, you're going to

854
01:32:54,041 --> 01:32:56,875
have one just hell of a problem.

855
01:33:10,208 --> 01:33:13,416
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I

856
01:33:13,416 --> 01:33:17,333
don't know. You may be aware of this. But you know, hippos are probably the most dangerous animal in Africa. They they kill more people than lions, crocodiles and anything else. I mean, they're really.

857
01:33:28,166 --> 01:33:29,250
They people can check that out. But

858
01:33:29,250 --> 01:33:30,666
having lived in Africa, they're they

859
01:33:30,666 --> 01:33:32,083
worry about the hippos more than anything

860
01:33:32,083 --> 01:33:34,416
else because they can they can really

861
01:33:34,416 --> 01:33:37,333
they kill a lot of people and get into very defensive of their territory. Yeah. Yeah. And if they get in, they said I just I haven't seen them in Africa. I just I just can I just I can't get into the hippos.

862
01:33:41,833 --> 01:33:50,666
I just I can't get into the hippos. And I

863
01:33:50,666 --> 01:33:52,916
think they'd be out there exterminating

864
01:33:52,916 --> 01:33:55,000
those things or euthanizing them. And I

865
01:33:55,000 --> 01:33:56,291
don't mean to sound cruel about it, but

866
01:33:56,291 --> 01:33:58,875
it's the consequences are just going to

867
01:33:58,875 --> 01:34:02,666
be just unbelievable. So yeah, I'm with

868
01:34:02,666 --> 01:34:03,791
you like the greater good

869
01:34:03,791 --> 01:34:04,333
should prevail in this in this.

870
01:34:04,375 --> 01:34:09,000
Right. Maybe you put them in a zoo, but I

871
01:34:09,000 --> 01:34:10,541
don't even know how you capture a hippo

872
01:34:10,541 --> 01:34:13,041
like Oh my God. Those Well, yeah, if you

873
01:34:13,041 --> 01:34:15,083
had one but now I don't know what the

874
01:34:15,083 --> 01:34:16,875
number of the population is, but it's

875
01:34:16,875 --> 01:34:20,333
large. It's not as small and they were to

876
01:34:20,333 --> 01:34:23,666
take no no. Yeah, you can't take it. You

877
01:34:23,666 --> 01:34:25,083
can't take them back to Africa. There's

878
01:34:25,083 --> 01:34:26,250
just not. I don't think there's enough

879
01:34:26,250 --> 01:34:29,041
zoos in the world to deal with them.

880
01:34:29,041 --> 01:34:30,916
You'd have to almost make a hippo zoo. I

881
01:34:30,916 --> 01:34:32,125
could almost have to be a zoo of just

882
01:34:32,125 --> 01:34:33,375
full of yeah, but I almost feel like. Yeah, but I think that's a good thing.

883
01:34:46,375 --> 01:34:48,250
You know, as far as like hither and thirties like h

884
01:34:48,250 --> 01:34:50,333
So I had to had to get an involved that

885
01:34:50,333 --> 01:34:50,750
because that's probably

886
01:34:50,750 --> 01:34:51,666
something else you'll be fight

887
01:34:51,666 --> 01:34:53,000
You'll be dealing with later on is the

888
01:34:53,000 --> 01:34:54,583
genetics of the hippo popular

889
01:34:54,583 --> 01:34:59,750
This is an

890
01:34:59,750 --> 01:35:02,500
interesting sort of approach in

891
01:35:02,500 --> 01:35:03,750
In terms of especially when you talk

892
01:35:03,750 --> 01:35:04,791
about the turtles and

893
01:35:04,791 --> 01:35:06,375
it reminded me of a story

894
01:35:06,916 --> 01:35:08,791
And I think it was in Costa Rica that I

895
01:35:08,791 --> 01:35:09,750
covered on on my other

896
01:35:09,750 --> 01:35:11,083
podcast how to protect the ocean

897
01:35:11,291 --> 01:35:13,125
Where you know the

898
01:35:13,125 --> 01:35:14,333
government was worried?

899
01:35:14,333 --> 01:35:16,125
I think was I think was I think was

900
01:35:16,125 --> 01:35:17,625
stingrays they were catching a lot

901
01:35:17,625 --> 01:35:19,125
stingrays and they were confiscating them

902
01:35:19,125 --> 01:35:20,083
at the airport before

903
01:35:20,083 --> 01:35:20,958
they got shipped out

904
01:35:21,041 --> 01:35:23,041
But they didn't know where to stingrays

905
01:35:23,041 --> 01:35:24,500
or some other animal. Maybe it was crabs

906
01:35:24,500 --> 01:35:25,875
I think was crabs, but they didn't know

907
01:35:25,875 --> 01:35:27,458
where to put them back because they're

908
01:35:27,458 --> 01:35:27,958
like if you put them

909
01:35:27,958 --> 01:35:28,958
back in a different spot

910
01:35:28,958 --> 01:35:31,041
That could that could have bad ecological

911
01:35:31,041 --> 01:35:32,541
effects right consequences

912
01:35:33,333 --> 01:35:35,250
Can this you know you talk about the

913
01:35:35,250 --> 01:35:37,083
turtles you talk about using it for

914
01:35:37,083 --> 01:35:37,958
sharks as well and

915
01:35:37,958 --> 01:35:40,208
shark fins that with the the

916
01:35:40,541 --> 01:35:41,250
type of

917
01:35:41,416 --> 01:35:43,333
Method you using can you use it for

918
01:35:43,333 --> 01:35:46,000
pretty much any animal across across the

919
01:35:46,000 --> 01:35:47,500
board as long as you have?

920
01:35:47,500 --> 01:35:49,375
The genetic makeup of that animal and

921
01:35:49,375 --> 01:35:50,916
you're able to replicate that. Yeah.

922
01:35:50,916 --> 01:35:53,208
Yeah, you need to have some background

923
01:35:53,208 --> 01:35:55,416
information before in terms of

924
01:35:56,916 --> 01:35:59,208
The DNA sequence of different loss I

925
01:35:59,208 --> 01:36:01,208
different genes and see

926
01:36:01,208 --> 01:36:03,833
where the differences are and

927
01:36:05,208 --> 01:36:07,166
And I guess it's done a

928
01:36:07,166 --> 01:36:08,541
case-by-case scenario, so

929
01:36:08,583 --> 01:36:11,583
Are you wanting to detect a species you

930
01:36:11,583 --> 01:36:13,000
want to detect a population?

931
01:36:13,625 --> 01:36:16,541
It's our depending on what your answer is

932
01:36:16,541 --> 01:36:20,791
you design the genetic reaction around

933
01:36:21,500 --> 01:36:23,875
Different locations, but yeah pretty much

934
01:36:23,875 --> 01:36:26,125
you you can do it with anything that has

935
01:36:26,125 --> 01:36:29,250
in a and as long as that species has

936
01:36:30,083 --> 01:36:32,750
The markers for a particular area I guess

937
01:36:32,750 --> 01:36:34,375
right it would have to be different over

938
01:36:34,375 --> 01:36:35,791
those areas, right? Right,

939
01:36:35,791 --> 01:36:36,791
right, right, right, so yeah

940
01:36:37,541 --> 01:36:38,250
if

941
01:36:38,875 --> 01:36:43,750
if there is a species that has a

942
01:36:43,750 --> 01:36:44,916
large population that

943
01:36:44,916 --> 01:36:46,500
covers the entire Caribbean

944
01:36:46,958 --> 01:36:49,000
Then it doesn't really matter at least

945
01:36:49,000 --> 01:36:50,708
not in an evolutionary sense

946
01:36:50,708 --> 01:36:52,333
It doesn't really matter where you put

947
01:36:52,333 --> 01:36:53,208
them because they're

948
01:36:53,208 --> 01:36:54,750
part of the same breeding

949
01:36:55,583 --> 01:36:58,208
Population or the same the same genetic

950
01:36:58,208 --> 01:36:59,041
population structure

951
01:37:00,708 --> 01:37:02,791
So yeah that wouldn't matter but when

952
01:37:02,791 --> 01:37:05,250
when there's a lot of that

953
01:37:05,250 --> 01:37:07,583
reintroduction into the wild of

954
01:37:09,416 --> 01:37:10,333
Extremely

955
01:37:11,000 --> 01:37:13,500
Endangered threatened animals then that's

956
01:37:13,500 --> 01:37:14,791
the first thing they need to know what's

957
01:37:14,791 --> 01:37:15,250
the population

958
01:37:15,250 --> 01:37:18,708
structure in order to be able to

959
01:37:19,041 --> 01:37:21,166
assess what the what the

960
01:37:21,416 --> 01:37:22,375
consequences might be

961
01:37:22,375 --> 01:37:24,125
of outbreeding depression

962
01:37:24,791 --> 01:37:25,333
right

963
01:37:26,791 --> 01:37:28,958
Cool, yeah, that's such a cool technology

964
01:37:29,875 --> 01:37:32,750
So I got it. So I got a shifting towards

965
01:37:32,750 --> 01:37:33,625
it back to the sharks

966
01:37:33,625 --> 01:37:35,333
I gotta ask you about your your two

967
01:37:35,333 --> 01:37:36,833
favorite little hammerhead sharks that

968
01:37:36,833 --> 01:37:37,875
you're working on there

969
01:37:37,875 --> 01:37:39,916
It seems like that's just a fascinating

970
01:37:39,916 --> 01:37:41,333
project. You work with this

971
01:37:41,583 --> 01:37:44,333
Scalp scalped bonnet head and the scooped

972
01:37:44,333 --> 01:37:45,458
hammerhead shark Sierna

973
01:37:45,458 --> 01:37:47,291
Corona and Sierna Medea

974
01:37:47,333 --> 01:37:49,166
Can you hear about that

975
01:37:49,166 --> 01:37:50,541
hear more about that project?

976
01:37:51,583 --> 01:37:52,041
so

977
01:37:52,791 --> 01:37:55,291
so when I just I was I

978
01:37:55,291 --> 01:37:56,500
was lucky enough that when I

979
01:37:56,583 --> 01:38:00,750
when I went to be mini for those first

980
01:38:00,750 --> 01:38:03,750
times I developed a lot of the field of

981
01:38:03,750 --> 01:38:05,333
the field research methods

982
01:38:06,083 --> 01:38:08,041
And although I didn't apply them to my

983
01:38:08,041 --> 01:38:09,375
masters and my PhD. I

984
01:38:09,375 --> 01:38:11,666
always I always kept using them

985
01:38:12,208 --> 01:38:13,333
collaborating with people

986
01:38:13,750 --> 01:38:16,416
But I always in the back of my head. I

987
01:38:16,416 --> 01:38:17,416
always wanted to have my

988
01:38:17,416 --> 01:38:20,458
own field research study and

989
01:38:21,083 --> 01:38:22,333
Kind of like to fulfill

990
01:38:22,333 --> 01:38:24,750
that niche that I that I didn't

991
01:38:25,416 --> 01:38:28,375
that I that I wanted to do and just move

992
01:38:28,375 --> 01:38:29,916
to to more like the

993
01:38:29,916 --> 01:38:31,125
genetic side of things but

994
01:38:31,750 --> 01:38:34,375
Back in the day during kovit the

995
01:38:34,375 --> 01:38:36,333
Colombian Navy did an expedition

996
01:38:37,500 --> 01:38:40,500
through so the Colombian Navy had has had

997
01:38:40,500 --> 01:38:43,458
a program for both the Caribbean and the

998
01:38:43,625 --> 01:38:44,750
Pacific Coast of

999
01:38:44,750 --> 01:38:48,000
Colombia where you apply to

1000
01:38:48,791 --> 01:38:51,041
To be part of these expeditions and they

1001
01:38:51,041 --> 01:38:52,041
take you on Navy boats

1002
01:38:52,666 --> 01:38:54,833
to remote locations or

1003
01:38:55,708 --> 01:38:58,125
locations that are not super easy to

1004
01:38:58,125 --> 01:38:59,666
access and especially in

1005
01:38:59,666 --> 01:39:00,958
the Pacific Coast of Colombia

1006
01:39:01,625 --> 01:39:03,875
They're remote. There are not a lot of

1007
01:39:03,875 --> 01:39:05,666
roads or anything to take you to those

1008
01:39:05,666 --> 01:39:07,041
places, but they're also

1009
01:39:08,083 --> 01:39:10,750
Impacted by the internal conflict of

1010
01:39:10,750 --> 01:39:13,708
Colombia for many decades. So it's not

1011
01:39:13,708 --> 01:39:15,083
the easiest place to work

1012
01:39:16,416 --> 01:39:17,750
So when we got there with the Navy

1013
01:39:18,291 --> 01:39:20,291
We started working with local communities

1014
01:39:20,291 --> 01:39:23,166
and the idea was almost just to see what

1015
01:39:23,166 --> 01:39:24,083
they were catching how

1016
01:39:24,083 --> 01:39:25,125
they were catching them

1017
01:39:25,125 --> 01:39:28,208
How many kind of like try to explore a

1018
01:39:28,208 --> 01:39:29,875
little bit the landscape and see what

1019
01:39:29,875 --> 01:39:30,666
kind of species were

1020
01:39:30,666 --> 01:39:31,541
part of their fisheries

1021
01:39:31,541 --> 01:39:34,375
And all those kind of things and then

1022
01:39:34,375 --> 01:39:35,583
when we were retrieving the

1023
01:39:35,583 --> 01:39:36,750
first long line that we put

1024
01:39:36,750 --> 01:39:39,333
I was holding the line and then just

1025
01:39:39,333 --> 01:39:40,750
yellow hammerhead came on

1026
01:39:40,750 --> 01:39:41,875
the line. I was like damn

1027
01:39:42,583 --> 01:39:44,333
This and I and I started

1028
01:39:44,333 --> 01:39:46,291
trying to remember Dave's

1029
01:39:47,333 --> 01:39:47,875
book

1030
01:39:48,666 --> 01:39:51,125
What is this? What is it? I started to

1031
01:39:51,125 --> 01:39:52,541
try to remember all these different

1032
01:39:52,541 --> 01:39:53,375
hammerheads and I was

1033
01:39:53,375 --> 01:39:54,625
like, it's so yellow

1034
01:39:54,625 --> 01:39:55,916
It has to be spirona

1035
01:39:55,916 --> 01:39:57,250
corona. There's no other way

1036
01:39:58,166 --> 01:40:01,375
So we took genetic samples in on the same

1037
01:40:01,375 --> 01:40:03,458
line further down down the

1038
01:40:03,458 --> 01:40:04,875
line a smaller hammerhead

1039
01:40:05,750 --> 01:40:07,875
more towards like brown

1040
01:40:08,291 --> 01:40:10,250
gray gray grayish

1041
01:40:10,875 --> 01:40:11,250
not

1042
01:40:12,291 --> 01:40:14,666
Call of hammerhead. I mean, I knew for a

1043
01:40:14,666 --> 01:40:16,500
fact. It was not as called my head. I

1044
01:40:16,500 --> 01:40:17,958
started looking at their anal fins

1045
01:40:17,958 --> 01:40:20,416
I wasn't sure what it was. But in my

1046
01:40:20,416 --> 01:40:21,791
head, it could have been spirit media

1047
01:40:21,833 --> 01:40:23,583
so again, we took samples and everything

1048
01:40:23,583 --> 01:40:27,250
I came back to the lab run the tests and

1049
01:40:27,375 --> 01:40:28,458
Spirit media and it's

1050
01:40:28,458 --> 01:40:31,041
fair in a Corona. Wow, I

1051
01:40:31,041 --> 01:40:32,375
Didn't know about time

1052
01:40:33,041 --> 01:40:35,000
Locations where you can set hooks and

1053
01:40:35,000 --> 01:40:36,250
catch these two hammerheads

1054
01:40:36,875 --> 01:40:38,833
like that, they're

1055
01:40:39,208 --> 01:40:40,041
They're critically endangered

1056
01:40:41,000 --> 01:40:46,125
They're super odd and hard to find so the

1057
01:40:46,125 --> 01:40:47,333
first thing I did when

1058
01:40:47,333 --> 01:40:48,250
I came back from that

1059
01:40:48,250 --> 01:40:50,791
Explanation was to look for funds apply

1060
01:40:50,791 --> 01:40:53,041
for grants apply apply for for money to

1061
01:40:53,041 --> 01:40:54,875
go back and see what I could do

1062
01:40:56,208 --> 01:40:58,833
So I knocked the door on Save RC's

1063
01:40:58,833 --> 01:41:02,625
foundation and the explorers Club and

1064
01:41:02,625 --> 01:41:04,250
And they both gave us funds.

1065
01:41:04,250 --> 01:41:06,000
We started the project there

1066
01:41:06,583 --> 01:41:09,166
We were going to start where we where we

1067
01:41:09,166 --> 01:41:10,166
went that first time

1068
01:41:10,416 --> 01:41:10,708
but

1069
01:41:11,000 --> 01:41:13,166
Then a second explanation took us of

1070
01:41:13,166 --> 01:41:15,125
further north and when I

1071
01:41:15,125 --> 01:41:16,291
was talking to the fishermen

1072
01:41:16,291 --> 01:41:18,625
I was like, hey when we were back in the

1073
01:41:18,625 --> 01:41:19,750
south, we saw these

1074
01:41:19,750 --> 01:41:21,375
yellow hammerheads. Oh, yeah

1075
01:41:21,375 --> 01:41:23,958
All right, I can take you tomorrow to to

1076
01:41:23,958 --> 01:41:25,000
see them. I was like

1077
01:41:26,125 --> 01:41:29,583
It has to be you know, it has to be a lie

1078
01:41:30,458 --> 01:41:32,958
For the lack of what over the word, but

1079
01:41:32,958 --> 01:41:35,208
we went to we went to other boats

1080
01:41:35,250 --> 01:41:40,625
no, no joking we said the anchor we put

1081
01:41:40,625 --> 01:41:43,208
three or four hand lines of the boat and

1082
01:41:43,458 --> 01:41:45,375
Eight minutes later bomb something was

1083
01:41:45,375 --> 01:41:48,291
hitting the hook and the guy was let me

1084
01:41:48,291 --> 01:41:50,000
see. Let me see. Yeah, this is her

1085
01:41:50,000 --> 01:41:50,666
This is her

1086
01:41:52,000 --> 01:41:54,250
You mean what this is the

1087
01:41:54,250 --> 01:41:56,500
hammerhead and I was like, okay

1088
01:41:56,500 --> 01:41:58,875
and when he pulled it out, it was a

1089
01:41:58,875 --> 01:42:00,166
spinner for on the hook so

1090
01:42:00,166 --> 01:42:01,791
that opened my eyes because

1091
01:42:02,791 --> 01:42:04,375
that's the method that we

1092
01:42:04,375 --> 01:42:06,416
needed to catch the sharks to

1093
01:42:07,083 --> 01:42:09,791
To study them because on the long line

1094
01:42:09,791 --> 01:42:11,291
most of them would come dead

1095
01:42:12,166 --> 01:42:13,958
So we moved all the project to this

1096
01:42:13,958 --> 01:42:16,666
location and we started tagging them with

1097
01:42:16,666 --> 01:42:19,583
acoustic transmitters. We said

1098
01:42:20,458 --> 01:42:23,166
an acoustic array with the help of ocean

1099
01:42:23,166 --> 01:42:25,541
tracking network and

1100
01:42:25,541 --> 01:42:27,208
The results of that of

1101
01:42:27,208 --> 01:42:28,375
that study were published

1102
01:42:29,458 --> 01:42:31,958
Think around August or something last

1103
01:42:31,958 --> 01:42:34,250
year where we found out that

1104
01:42:34,250 --> 01:42:35,833
they are extremely resident

1105
01:42:35,833 --> 01:42:38,750
So it's very not Corona the location that

1106
01:42:38,750 --> 01:42:40,208
we were studying is not

1107
01:42:40,500 --> 01:42:42,250
There's nothing in particular. There's

1108
01:42:42,250 --> 01:42:43,666
there's not a reef. There's not a

1109
01:42:43,666 --> 01:42:47,250
structure. It's just a mud flood and

1110
01:42:47,250 --> 01:42:48,166
they spent

1111
01:42:49,041 --> 01:42:51,625
Almost the entire time through an entire

1112
01:42:51,625 --> 01:42:53,583
year within five square

1113
01:42:53,583 --> 01:42:54,791
kilometers of the coastline

1114
01:42:56,083 --> 01:42:58,916
so so that also opened our eyes because

1115
01:42:59,125 --> 01:43:01,916
The objective of the project was to see

1116
01:43:01,916 --> 01:43:04,333
if maybe the sharks used an area during

1117
01:43:04,333 --> 01:43:05,750
high tide in a different area

1118
01:43:05,750 --> 01:43:07,666
They're in low tide so we can convince

1119
01:43:07,666 --> 01:43:09,458
the fishermen to kind of swap

1120
01:43:09,833 --> 01:43:11,833
Locations or swap areas with the sharks

1121
01:43:11,833 --> 01:43:12,958
to reduce by that was

1122
01:43:12,958 --> 01:43:14,666
kind of like the the idea

1123
01:43:14,708 --> 01:43:16,666
but when we realized that they spend the

1124
01:43:16,666 --> 01:43:17,791
whole time within those

1125
01:43:17,791 --> 01:43:19,500
five square kilometers, then

1126
01:43:20,125 --> 01:43:21,875
We started talking with the local

1127
01:43:21,875 --> 01:43:24,500
communities and we decided and they

1128
01:43:24,500 --> 01:43:25,875
agreed that it was

1129
01:43:25,875 --> 01:43:27,333
gonna become a no-take zone

1130
01:43:27,625 --> 01:43:30,625
So now they are enforcing themselves and

1131
01:43:30,625 --> 01:43:31,833
enforcing the whole community

1132
01:43:32,166 --> 01:43:35,041
To not enter that location because we

1133
01:43:35,041 --> 01:43:37,000
found out that's where the sharks are

1134
01:43:37,625 --> 01:43:39,500
And now we're starting them

1135
01:43:39,625 --> 01:43:41,708
With the help of the local communities to

1136
01:43:41,708 --> 01:43:43,958
do mark recapture data to find out the

1137
01:43:43,958 --> 01:43:44,833
size of the population

1138
01:43:44,833 --> 01:43:46,000
that uses that location

1139
01:43:46,625 --> 01:43:47,833
We're also setting up

1140
01:43:47,833 --> 01:43:49,291
in the next few months

1141
01:43:50,041 --> 01:43:51,458
Find scale acoustic

1142
01:43:51,458 --> 01:43:53,708
receiver arrangement to know

1143
01:43:54,250 --> 01:43:56,875
Exactly what the portion of the time

1144
01:43:56,875 --> 01:43:59,916
during a year or more do they spend

1145
01:43:59,916 --> 01:44:00,708
within the boundaries

1146
01:44:00,708 --> 01:44:01,750
of that no-take zone?

1147
01:44:03,333 --> 01:44:04,625
We're developing

1148
01:44:05,125 --> 01:44:06,291
environmental DNA tests

1149
01:44:06,291 --> 01:44:08,166
to know to see if we can

1150
01:44:08,583 --> 01:44:10,666
Find more locations or higher

1151
01:44:10,666 --> 01:44:12,583
occurrence areas through a DNA

1152
01:44:13,250 --> 01:44:17,958
kind of like to survey the entire coast

1153
01:44:17,958 --> 01:44:19,875
of Columbia and see if we can find also

1154
01:44:19,875 --> 01:44:22,750
some of the same pockets that

1155
01:44:22,750 --> 01:44:23,958
We found so far

1156
01:44:25,250 --> 01:44:26,541
They say they seem like for sure to

1157
01:44:26,541 --> 01:44:28,333
describe. They're very habitat specific

1158
01:44:28,333 --> 01:44:29,958
if you find the right habitat, you're

1159
01:44:29,958 --> 01:44:31,000
likely to find them there

1160
01:44:32,041 --> 01:44:35,625
Yeah, yeah, but even within the 10

1161
01:44:36,083 --> 01:44:39,083
Like a line of 10 kilometers in the

1162
01:44:39,083 --> 01:44:40,208
National National

1163
01:44:40,208 --> 01:44:41,291
National Park that we work

1164
01:44:41,791 --> 01:44:45,666
You move a kilometer further north than

1165
01:44:45,666 --> 01:44:47,833
where we that we were finding them and

1166
01:44:47,833 --> 01:44:48,583
they're not that many there

1167
01:44:49,041 --> 01:44:50,708
so it seems like for

1168
01:44:50,708 --> 01:44:53,666
some reason they're I

1169
01:44:53,666 --> 01:44:55,041
Cannot explain it because I don't think

1170
01:44:55,041 --> 01:44:56,125
there's anything like that in the

1171
01:44:56,125 --> 01:44:57,041
scientific literature

1172
01:44:57,958 --> 01:45:01,333
So I don't I don't know exactly why they

1173
01:45:01,333 --> 01:45:02,958
are preferring that location

1174
01:45:02,958 --> 01:45:05,375
They're obviously are feeding there and

1175
01:45:05,375 --> 01:45:06,416
they I don't know if

1176
01:45:06,416 --> 01:45:07,125
they're reproducing there

1177
01:45:07,166 --> 01:45:07,958
But we've seen theme

1178
01:45:07,958 --> 01:45:10,708
pregnant females and females with

1179
01:45:11,625 --> 01:45:13,208
We've made his car there

1180
01:45:14,458 --> 01:45:17,250
So it's definitely important area, but we

1181
01:45:17,250 --> 01:45:20,000
don't know exactly why and we don't know

1182
01:45:20,000 --> 01:45:21,750
if they're similar locations

1183
01:45:22,541 --> 01:45:24,250
Throughout the coastline and that's kind

1184
01:45:24,250 --> 01:45:26,083
of like where where the project is is

1185
01:45:26,083 --> 01:45:27,250
going like can we find

1186
01:45:27,250 --> 01:45:29,125
these other pockets of sharks?

1187
01:45:29,416 --> 01:45:30,000
and that's where it's

1188
01:45:30,000 --> 01:45:31,000
very not corona, but

1189
01:45:31,416 --> 01:45:33,833
Through our fishing effort there. We've

1190
01:45:33,833 --> 01:45:36,208
caught a spirit of media as fear Natiburo

1191
01:45:36,208 --> 01:45:37,791
in the Pacific. So the

1192
01:45:37,791 --> 01:45:39,208
Suriname, Spertina is

1193
01:45:40,791 --> 01:45:43,541
Yeah in in that location and also

1194
01:45:43,541 --> 01:45:44,708
juveniles of scalloped

1195
01:45:44,708 --> 01:45:47,416
hammerheads so in that small

1196
01:45:48,375 --> 01:45:50,000
Portion of the Colombian Pacific Coast

1197
01:45:50,000 --> 01:45:51,791
you have four co-existing hammerheads,

1198
01:45:51,791 --> 01:45:54,458
which is wow, which is pretty crazy

1199
01:45:54,458 --> 01:45:56,833
and three of them are pretty clean then

1200
01:45:56,833 --> 01:45:58,250
you're one of them is endangered so

1201
01:45:59,166 --> 01:46:00,625
definitely a very

1202
01:46:00,625 --> 01:46:02,791
interesting area to to study

1203
01:46:03,541 --> 01:46:05,041
Critically in the endurespecies that are

1204
01:46:05,041 --> 01:46:07,041
not as they're not very common

1205
01:46:07,708 --> 01:46:08,458
anywhere has anybody

1206
01:46:08,458 --> 01:46:10,541
tried has anybody tried to

1207
01:46:11,041 --> 01:46:14,125
Do any kind of isotope analysis to kind

1208
01:46:14,125 --> 01:46:15,708
of see how those things partition out

1209
01:46:15,708 --> 01:46:17,916
having those having like four small

1210
01:46:18,333 --> 01:46:21,333
hammerheads, yes, and address now via and

1211
01:46:21,583 --> 01:46:23,875
his research group of squaddles

1212
01:46:23,875 --> 01:46:26,041
foundation did something on

1213
01:46:26,041 --> 01:46:27,333
the stable isotope site and

1214
01:46:28,291 --> 01:46:31,583
We're also doing some of it just to see

1215
01:46:31,583 --> 01:46:33,416
if there's ontogenetic shifts

1216
01:46:34,041 --> 01:46:38,041
in their in their diet and or habitat use

1217
01:46:38,958 --> 01:46:41,000
Because to these day we've never seen a

1218
01:46:41,000 --> 01:46:44,208
juvenile but having said that I don't

1219
01:46:44,208 --> 01:46:44,875
think our fishing

1220
01:46:44,875 --> 01:46:46,208
method would catch a juvenile

1221
01:46:47,750 --> 01:46:49,875
Because it must be you know

1222
01:46:50,375 --> 01:46:52,291
Super small so I don't think they our

1223
01:46:52,291 --> 01:46:54,166
hooks would would yeah would

1224
01:46:54,166 --> 01:46:55,375
catch one of those little guys

1225
01:46:55,375 --> 01:46:57,250
But but it would be interesting to see

1226
01:46:58,291 --> 01:47:01,500
Where the juveniles are we never seen one

1227
01:47:01,500 --> 01:47:03,041
right

1228
01:47:04,291 --> 01:47:06,208
And so when you've talked to the

1229
01:47:06,208 --> 01:47:07,958
community the local fishers about that

1230
01:47:07,958 --> 01:47:09,875
how receptive are they are to?

1231
01:47:10,875 --> 01:47:12,291
Like not targeting them

1232
01:47:12,291 --> 01:47:13,625
or anything are they still?

1233
01:47:14,458 --> 01:47:15,625
super receptive is

1234
01:47:16,416 --> 01:47:19,458
It's incredible the the uptake and the

1235
01:47:19,458 --> 01:47:20,416
buy-in from the community

1236
01:47:21,625 --> 01:47:24,791
Obviously one of the key concepts of the

1237
01:47:24,791 --> 01:47:27,333
project is that we're employing them

1238
01:47:27,333 --> 01:47:30,333
To conduct science in this location, so

1239
01:47:30,333 --> 01:47:31,791
it's a trade-off for them

1240
01:47:32,541 --> 01:47:35,333
So every week we have we have teams of

1241
01:47:35,333 --> 01:47:37,750
fishermen going out there and fish and

1242
01:47:37,750 --> 01:47:38,625
they collect the data

1243
01:47:38,625 --> 01:47:41,916
For us and we buy we pay the fuel we pay

1244
01:47:41,916 --> 01:47:43,916
their time we pay for everything

1245
01:47:44,125 --> 01:47:46,500
And they just going collect data for us

1246
01:47:46,541 --> 01:47:49,333
We train them how to pit tag and and read

1247
01:47:49,333 --> 01:47:50,500
the pit tags and they

1248
01:47:50,500 --> 01:47:51,666
collect all this data for us

1249
01:47:52,083 --> 01:47:54,083
So I think that has increased the the

1250
01:47:54,083 --> 01:47:55,000
buying of the local

1251
01:47:55,000 --> 01:47:57,333
communities on the project and now

1252
01:47:57,625 --> 01:47:59,000
They're self enforcing

1253
01:47:59,000 --> 01:48:01,250
it so one a few months ago

1254
01:48:01,250 --> 01:48:03,500
One of the one of the fishermen from the

1255
01:48:03,500 --> 01:48:06,083
community was seen fishing around that

1256
01:48:06,083 --> 01:48:08,250
location and they all went to his house

1257
01:48:08,250 --> 01:48:11,000
Hey, no listen. We're in this project and

1258
01:48:11,000 --> 01:48:12,208
we're protecting that

1259
01:48:12,208 --> 01:48:14,291
location. So now that's a

1260
01:48:15,125 --> 01:48:17,416
off-limits location for nets and long

1261
01:48:17,416 --> 01:48:20,291
lines, so it's cool to see that they are

1262
01:48:20,708 --> 01:48:23,125
they're so involved that they want to get

1263
01:48:23,125 --> 01:48:25,791
to to keep the project and and actually

1264
01:48:26,458 --> 01:48:30,250
Enforce a local MPA that is not is not

1265
01:48:30,666 --> 01:48:33,125
Set by the government. They set their own

1266
01:48:33,125 --> 01:48:35,750
boundaries. They set their own ways of

1267
01:48:35,750 --> 01:48:37,250
fishing inside or not

1268
01:48:37,583 --> 01:48:40,250
being able to fish in there, so it's a

1269
01:48:40,708 --> 01:48:42,875
it's a good project with the with the

1270
01:48:43,458 --> 01:48:45,625
by the hand of the local community and I

1271
01:48:45,625 --> 01:48:47,750
think that's key for the success of any

1272
01:48:47,750 --> 01:48:48,916
project any conservation

1273
01:48:48,916 --> 01:48:51,250
project in locations that are

1274
01:48:51,250 --> 01:48:53,708
very poor locations remote locations

1275
01:48:53,708 --> 01:48:55,250
forgotten location, so

1276
01:48:55,250 --> 01:48:57,166
there's not a lot of them, you know

1277
01:48:57,583 --> 01:48:59,208
Government resources going to these

1278
01:48:59,208 --> 01:49:02,375
areas. So so through science they can see

1279
01:49:02,375 --> 01:49:04,458
you know, like an alternative livelihood

1280
01:49:04,458 --> 01:49:05,583
in a different way to

1281
01:49:06,750 --> 01:49:09,708
You know to to make money in and survive

1282
01:49:09,708 --> 01:49:11,416
in the middle of the Colombian jungle

1283
01:49:12,458 --> 01:49:14,250
Yeah, yeah, that's a

1284
01:49:14,250 --> 01:49:15,625
great. That's a great story

1285
01:49:16,041 --> 01:49:18,500
If anyone listen there you follow it

1286
01:49:18,500 --> 01:49:20,000
follow Diego on like

1287
01:49:20,000 --> 01:49:21,250
Instagram and social media

1288
01:49:21,250 --> 01:49:23,750
He posts a lot of a lot of cool pictures

1289
01:49:23,750 --> 01:49:25,916
from that. Yeah, I learned a lot just

1290
01:49:25,916 --> 01:49:27,416
following on Instagram there

1291
01:49:27,416 --> 01:49:28,833
So I'd recommend anybody out

1292
01:49:28,833 --> 01:49:29,791
there if you want to learn more

1293
01:49:30,250 --> 01:49:31,750
Follow Diego on that

1294
01:49:32,375 --> 01:49:34,166
It sounds like Diego a lot of your

1295
01:49:34,166 --> 01:49:34,916
research has been on the

1296
01:49:34,916 --> 01:49:36,000
Pacific Coast of Colombia

1297
01:49:36,166 --> 01:49:37,833
But Colombia actually also borders in the

1298
01:49:37,833 --> 01:49:40,875
Caribbean as well. Is there do you do

1299
01:49:40,875 --> 01:49:42,291
much on the Caribbean side at all?

1300
01:49:42,291 --> 01:49:43,000
Or is most your focus

1301
01:49:43,000 --> 01:49:43,833
just been on the Pacific?

1302
01:49:45,208 --> 01:49:49,416
No, because of this project my focus a

1303
01:49:49,416 --> 01:49:51,166
Lot of the research that I'm doing now or

1304
01:49:51,166 --> 01:49:53,625
more more often I go to the Pacific Coast

1305
01:49:53,791 --> 01:49:55,500
But Colombia has this

1306
01:49:55,500 --> 01:49:58,541
amazing place. We are submitting a

1307
01:49:59,000 --> 01:50:02,208
Paper on it soon where through

1308
01:50:02,208 --> 01:50:03,208
the global theme print project

1309
01:50:03,583 --> 01:50:05,833
We've been sending graphs in an

1310
01:50:05,833 --> 01:50:08,125
archipelago that is offshore in the

1311
01:50:08,125 --> 01:50:09,583
Colombian Caribbean side

1312
01:50:10,166 --> 01:50:11,541
So he has ten different islands and

1313
01:50:11,541 --> 01:50:14,500
atolls. I don't know Dave if you heard of

1314
01:50:14,500 --> 01:50:16,541
San Andreas and providentia islands

1315
01:50:18,166 --> 01:50:21,166
No, no, they're like east of Nicaragua

1316
01:50:22,041 --> 01:50:25,000
South of Jamaica. Oh, yeah, but they're

1317
01:50:25,000 --> 01:50:27,333
actually they're closer to Nicaragua and

1318
01:50:27,333 --> 01:50:29,041
Costa Rica in Jamaica than Colombia

1319
01:50:29,041 --> 01:50:30,291
But they're part of Colombian

1320
01:50:31,500 --> 01:50:33,208
Okay, I know we're talking about now.

1321
01:50:33,208 --> 01:50:34,750
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I don't realize a

1322
01:50:34,750 --> 01:50:35,541
very part of Colombia.

1323
01:50:35,541 --> 01:50:37,541
Okay. Yeah, so very remote

1324
01:50:38,125 --> 01:50:40,875
very isolated lots of sea mounts around

1325
01:50:40,875 --> 01:50:43,458
so one thing that I'm collaborating with

1326
01:50:43,458 --> 01:50:45,291
John Carlson at NOAA is

1327
01:50:45,291 --> 01:50:47,250
Through a shiny white tip. So we found

1328
01:50:47,250 --> 01:50:49,041
that in San Andreas off San Andreas

1329
01:50:49,041 --> 01:50:50,250
really close to the

1330
01:50:50,250 --> 01:50:52,250
coast you get a consistent

1331
01:50:52,833 --> 01:50:54,416
number of

1332
01:50:54,708 --> 01:50:56,041
of a shiny white tips we

1333
01:50:56,833 --> 01:50:59,375
Last year we tagged one and it went all

1334
01:50:59,375 --> 01:51:01,750
the way to the south of Jamaica

1335
01:51:02,250 --> 01:51:06,333
but it following the contour of those sea

1336
01:51:06,333 --> 01:51:08,125
mounts and almost as

1337
01:51:08,416 --> 01:51:11,666
Soon as it was to leave the MPA because

1338
01:51:11,666 --> 01:51:12,791
it's a large MPA is called

1339
01:51:12,791 --> 01:51:14,375
the sea flower biosphere reserve

1340
01:51:14,375 --> 01:51:16,291
He turned around and

1341
01:51:16,291 --> 01:51:17,541
went back to San Andreas

1342
01:51:19,041 --> 01:51:21,916
So it's it's a pretty neat. It's a pretty

1343
01:51:21,916 --> 01:51:23,333
neat project that we've been doing there.

1344
01:51:23,333 --> 01:51:25,000
I've tagged like three or four

1345
01:51:25,000 --> 01:51:28,708
a shiny white tip so far the sad news is

1346
01:51:28,708 --> 01:51:30,875
that all of them have been caught by

1347
01:51:30,875 --> 01:51:32,416
by fishermen

1348
01:51:33,125 --> 01:51:34,458
Not Colombia fishermen

1349
01:51:34,583 --> 01:51:37,041
But a lot of these sharks then move into

1350
01:51:37,041 --> 01:51:39,333
Costa Rica and any cara on waters and

1351
01:51:39,333 --> 01:51:40,458
they've been getting caught there

1352
01:51:40,875 --> 01:51:43,250
So we found we found an area of like high

1353
01:51:43,750 --> 01:51:45,541
Vulnerability for that species in the

1354
01:51:45,541 --> 01:51:48,458
southwestern portion of the Caribbean. I

1355
01:51:48,458 --> 01:51:49,583
thought Costa Rica had

1356
01:51:49,583 --> 01:51:50,916
prohibited prohibited from

1357
01:51:51,541 --> 01:51:54,125
Oceanic white tip sharks in their water

1358
01:51:54,125 --> 01:51:56,041
in their water. We have

1359
01:51:56,041 --> 01:51:57,416
evidence that they were caught

1360
01:51:57,875 --> 01:51:58,791
in there

1361
01:51:59,416 --> 01:52:01,208
within their waters

1362
01:52:02,166 --> 01:52:03,458
Unfortunately, and also

1363
01:52:03,458 --> 01:52:05,416
though through the Global Finprint

1364
01:52:05,833 --> 01:52:08,250
We've been serving these reefs and we

1365
01:52:08,250 --> 01:52:11,000
actually found that these reefs have a

1366
01:52:11,000 --> 01:52:13,166
higher relative abundance of Caribbean

1367
01:52:13,166 --> 01:52:14,750
reef sharks than Bahamas

1368
01:52:14,750 --> 01:52:16,250
Oh, oh

1369
01:52:16,250 --> 01:52:17,875
Wow, it's an amazing

1370
01:52:17,875 --> 01:52:21,791
amazing finding and

1371
01:52:21,791 --> 01:52:24,291
in the whole region has been

1372
01:52:24,958 --> 01:52:25,958
so basically

1373
01:52:26,375 --> 01:52:29,333
You know how the shark center is were

1374
01:52:29,333 --> 01:52:31,833
established, which is the entire easy of

1375
01:52:31,833 --> 01:52:33,458
a country, but Colombia has

1376
01:52:33,833 --> 01:52:37,333
jurisdiction in both in both in both

1377
01:52:37,333 --> 01:52:39,791
oceans both the Pacific and Korean in

1378
01:52:39,791 --> 01:52:40,750
Atlantic or Caribbean

1379
01:52:40,750 --> 01:52:43,250
So it would be hard, but the whole

1380
01:52:43,250 --> 01:52:46,166
boundaries of the sea

1381
01:52:46,166 --> 01:52:47,333
flower by a sphere reserve is

1382
01:52:49,041 --> 01:52:51,500
180,000 square kilometers and shark

1383
01:52:51,500 --> 01:52:54,291
fisheries and the same that applies for a

1384
01:52:54,291 --> 01:52:56,250
shark sanctuary no catching retention

1385
01:52:57,166 --> 01:52:59,333
selling or purchasing of shark products

1386
01:53:00,791 --> 01:53:03,791
Applies for the for for that region and

1387
01:53:03,791 --> 01:53:05,750
they've been protected there since 2008

1388
01:53:06,583 --> 01:53:08,750
And we can see that the locals are

1389
01:53:08,750 --> 01:53:11,000
actually the super high compliance

1390
01:53:11,000 --> 01:53:12,250
because we see right

1391
01:53:12,916 --> 01:53:15,208
We see numbers that we don't see anything

1392
01:53:15,208 --> 01:53:16,666
anywhere outside Bahamas

1393
01:53:16,750 --> 01:53:19,708
And in and in some of the hotels that we

1394
01:53:19,708 --> 01:53:21,458
have service even higher

1395
01:53:21,458 --> 01:53:23,166
than anywhere else in Bahamas

1396
01:53:24,458 --> 01:53:28,000
so it's definitely a like a like a

1397
01:53:28,000 --> 01:53:31,208
hotspot for for sharks and in a

1398
01:53:31,291 --> 01:53:34,000
successful conservation story and if you

1399
01:53:34,000 --> 01:53:36,791
see the paper by MacNeil et al in

1400
01:53:37,250 --> 01:53:38,958
2020 the big Global Fin

1401
01:53:38,958 --> 01:53:40,500
project the those

1402
01:53:40,500 --> 01:53:43,458
Colombian islands are are

1403
01:53:43,458 --> 01:53:45,958
Showcasing in their data set and it's a

1404
01:53:45,958 --> 01:53:50,666
spring president. Yeah, imagine. Hmm. Oh

1405
01:53:50,666 --> 01:53:53,208
Wow, that's super fat. That's super

1406
01:53:53,208 --> 01:53:55,375
fatty. So I guess what one more question.

1407
01:53:55,625 --> 01:53:57,291
Another question is how how much time do

1408
01:53:57,291 --> 01:53:58,250
you actually get to spend in?

1409
01:54:05,500 --> 01:54:08,125
Well, I would say I travel often but I

1410
01:54:08,125 --> 01:54:09,875
don't I don't spend much time there

1411
01:54:09,875 --> 01:54:11,625
I go maybe visit family

1412
01:54:11,625 --> 01:54:13,416
for a day go to the field

1413
01:54:13,750 --> 01:54:16,291
get it done and then come back but

1414
01:54:16,791 --> 01:54:20,458
but yeah, I I love that that part of the

1415
01:54:20,458 --> 01:54:22,583
shark science that I wanted to do in

1416
01:54:22,583 --> 01:54:25,416
terms of field research and and

1417
01:54:25,666 --> 01:54:27,333
More involved in the water with sharks.

1418
01:54:27,333 --> 01:54:28,333
I'm actually doing it in

1419
01:54:28,333 --> 01:54:30,083
my own country. So it's

1420
01:54:30,125 --> 01:54:31,708
Very proud of that.

1421
01:54:31,708 --> 01:54:32,958
That's really it's very special

1422
01:54:33,750 --> 01:54:35,250
Yeah, so this has been

1423
01:54:35,250 --> 01:54:36,583
super fascinating day guys

1424
01:54:36,583 --> 01:54:38,375
I got asked one question here before we

1425
01:54:38,375 --> 01:54:39,833
go is like so what advice

1426
01:54:39,833 --> 01:54:41,000
would you have for a young person?

1427
01:54:41,000 --> 01:54:44,041
Who's wants to get into shark research or

1428
01:54:44,041 --> 01:54:45,750
has interested in going in that path.

1429
01:54:45,750 --> 01:54:47,666
What advice would you have for them?

1430
01:54:48,375 --> 01:54:49,625
um, I guess

1431
01:54:50,208 --> 01:54:52,125
Most people will say the same but just

1432
01:54:52,125 --> 01:54:53,916
follow your passion. I

1433
01:54:53,916 --> 01:54:55,041
think when you have drive

1434
01:54:55,458 --> 01:54:58,291
It's it's kind of interesting and need

1435
01:54:58,291 --> 01:55:00,416
what you can accomplish if you have the

1436
01:55:00,416 --> 01:55:01,833
drive to to make it work

1437
01:55:01,833 --> 01:55:03,166
No matter what

1438
01:55:04,500 --> 01:55:06,625
It hasn't been easy for me

1439
01:55:06,625 --> 01:55:08,666
all the challenges of being in different

1440
01:55:08,666 --> 01:55:11,250
countries and places that I'm not you

1441
01:55:11,250 --> 01:55:12,208
know native speaking

1442
01:55:12,208 --> 01:55:14,000
English or native speaking

1443
01:55:14,208 --> 01:55:17,791
Mandarin or Cantonese, but somehow if you

1444
01:55:17,791 --> 01:55:19,333
really wanted you can make it work

1445
01:55:19,916 --> 01:55:21,000
and also

1446
01:55:22,208 --> 01:55:23,875
At least in sharks, I think

1447
01:55:23,875 --> 01:55:25,791
it's very flashy to try to

1448
01:55:26,583 --> 01:55:27,541
to

1449
01:55:28,166 --> 01:55:29,250
to get

1450
01:55:29,791 --> 01:55:30,708
involved in

1451
01:55:31,000 --> 01:55:33,208
In almost the same research has been

1452
01:55:33,208 --> 01:55:36,750
conducted. So so I can I could develop

1453
01:55:36,750 --> 01:55:37,958
for example, Florida

1454
01:55:37,958 --> 01:55:39,958
It's a heavily studied area. I could

1455
01:55:39,958 --> 01:55:42,375
develop projects here of

1456
01:55:42,375 --> 01:55:43,291
sharks, but

1457
01:55:44,291 --> 01:55:47,166
It there's already very very very good

1458
01:55:47,166 --> 01:55:48,541
people doing work in Florida

1459
01:55:48,541 --> 01:55:50,250
There's very very good people doing work

1460
01:55:50,250 --> 01:55:51,541
in the United States and other places

1461
01:55:51,541 --> 01:55:53,250
so try to find areas that

1462
01:55:53,250 --> 01:55:56,291
are in need of your skills and

1463
01:55:56,291 --> 01:55:58,166
That you can contribute the most to the

1464
01:55:58,166 --> 01:55:59,041
example with these small

1465
01:55:59,041 --> 01:56:00,708
hammerheads is the perfect example

1466
01:56:00,958 --> 01:56:04,000
and also sometimes the the most flashy

1467
01:56:04,000 --> 01:56:05,250
piece of research is

1468
01:56:05,250 --> 01:56:06,416
not the one that will

1469
01:56:07,125 --> 01:56:08,750
have the highest

1470
01:56:09,708 --> 01:56:11,208
contribution towards conservation and

1471
01:56:11,208 --> 01:56:12,708
that's what happened to me in Hong Kong

1472
01:56:12,708 --> 01:56:17,000
so so try to the the the

1473
01:56:17,125 --> 01:56:19,375
The advice would be try to

1474
01:56:21,541 --> 01:56:23,125
To set the goal towards

1475
01:56:23,125 --> 01:56:27,791
improving the conservation of sharks and

1476
01:56:27,791 --> 01:56:29,416
not so much the fun of the research

1477
01:56:29,416 --> 01:56:30,541
because sometimes the work

1478
01:56:30,541 --> 01:56:31,833
we do is more important than

1479
01:56:31,833 --> 01:56:33,125
Than just you know, the

1480
01:56:33,125 --> 01:56:35,000
field work that sometimes is fun

1481
01:56:35,000 --> 01:56:37,791
But but try to but try to make your work

1482
01:56:37,791 --> 01:56:39,291
as impactful as possible

1483
01:56:39,291 --> 01:56:41,708
regardless of of

1484
01:56:41,958 --> 01:56:44,083
how fun it is

1485
01:56:44,083 --> 01:56:44,500
I

1486
01:56:44,500 --> 01:56:47,416
Like the fun. This is

1487
01:56:47,416 --> 01:56:48,500
great. This is really great

1488
01:56:48,875 --> 01:56:52,083
and I mean at the beginning I headed to

1489
01:56:52,083 --> 01:56:53,958
the PCRs and I can spend a

1490
01:56:53,958 --> 01:56:56,250
whole week in the lab and and

1491
01:56:56,541 --> 01:56:58,333
My girlfriend can can

1492
01:56:58,333 --> 01:57:00,416
vouch for this but on a Sunday

1493
01:57:00,416 --> 01:57:01,208
I'm like, oh man

1494
01:57:01,208 --> 01:57:03,166
I can't wait to be Monday and run this

1495
01:57:03,166 --> 01:57:05,250
PCR that I've been waiting to run for so

1496
01:57:05,250 --> 01:57:07,375
so the fun will be there anyway

1497
01:57:08,041 --> 01:57:10,916
If you like what you're doing, but but

1498
01:57:10,916 --> 01:57:13,750
yeah try to try to use your your skills

1499
01:57:13,750 --> 01:57:15,750
and in your drive to

1500
01:57:15,750 --> 01:57:17,541
to make the highest impact as you

1501
01:57:18,875 --> 01:57:19,500
love it

1502
01:57:20,833 --> 01:57:22,750
Thank you so much

1503
01:57:23,500 --> 01:57:25,250
No, no worries. Thanks for having me

1504
01:57:25,875 --> 01:57:26,541
Yeah, no, no,

1505
01:57:26,541 --> 01:57:27,791
definitely have you back sometime

1506
01:57:28,541 --> 01:57:30,083
And talk follow up with some more of this

1507
01:57:30,083 --> 01:57:31,083
stuff, but really thank you

1508
01:57:31,083 --> 01:57:32,250
very much for coming on the show

1509
01:57:32,250 --> 01:57:34,000
We really it's really been a great great.

1510
01:57:34,000 --> 01:57:35,208
Thank you guys. Thank you

1511
01:57:35,208 --> 01:57:37,000
Thank you Diego for joining

1512
01:57:37,000 --> 01:57:38,750
us on the beyond jaws podcast

1513
01:57:38,750 --> 01:57:39,875
It was great to have you on looking

1514
01:57:39,875 --> 01:57:42,541
forward to discussing more of your very

1515
01:57:42,541 --> 01:57:43,583
interesting work on

1516
01:57:43,583 --> 01:57:45,208
genetics and sharks, uh, dave

1517
01:57:45,208 --> 01:57:46,666
What did you think like this that you

1518
01:57:46,666 --> 01:57:47,625
went all over the world?

1519
01:57:48,208 --> 01:57:49,125
different places

1520
01:57:49,666 --> 01:57:51,500
Working with different like government

1521
01:57:51,500 --> 01:57:53,500
agencies from europe to

1522
01:57:53,500 --> 01:57:56,416
hong kong to like columbia

1523
01:57:57,166 --> 01:57:58,750
Discovers these like two little sharks.

1524
01:57:58,750 --> 01:57:59,250
These cute little

1525
01:57:59,250 --> 01:58:00,708
sharks does work on them

1526
01:58:00,750 --> 01:58:02,291
Yeah, pretty cool like a

1527
01:58:02,291 --> 01:58:04,083
pretty cool career so far

1528
01:58:04,708 --> 01:58:06,750
Seems like he's just getting started. Oh,

1529
01:58:06,750 --> 01:58:07,875
yeah. Yeah, and he's a young guy

1530
01:58:07,875 --> 01:58:09,125
He's just getting an early career

1531
01:58:09,125 --> 01:58:11,041
researcher and uh, you know

1532
01:58:11,041 --> 01:58:12,875
The whole story talked about the how he

1533
01:58:12,875 --> 01:58:14,541
found it came across those two little

1534
01:58:14,541 --> 01:58:16,666
sharks critically endangered, you know

1535
01:58:17,166 --> 01:58:19,333
Hadn't been seen for decades literally

1536
01:58:19,333 --> 01:58:21,583
and often often happens

1537
01:58:21,666 --> 01:58:23,083
I can tell you from experience you go

1538
01:58:23,083 --> 01:58:24,458
these little out of the way villages

1539
01:58:25,000 --> 01:58:27,500
In towns that nobody ever goes to and

1540
01:58:27,500 --> 01:58:28,916
some of the ones you can't really go to

1541
01:58:29,083 --> 01:58:30,208
like you mentioned you had to go with the

1542
01:58:30,208 --> 01:58:31,750
with the columbia navy because they're

1543
01:58:31,750 --> 01:58:32,750
not they're not safe

1544
01:58:32,750 --> 01:58:33,833
to go to because of drug

1545
01:58:34,041 --> 01:58:34,750
cartels and

1546
01:58:35,291 --> 01:58:36,416
and things which uh

1547
01:58:36,916 --> 01:58:37,750
Which which is which

1548
01:58:37,750 --> 01:58:38,625
is a real issue there

1549
01:58:38,625 --> 01:58:39,875
But they managed to found these areas

1550
01:58:39,875 --> 01:58:41,708
that were where they were unaware of them

1551
01:58:41,708 --> 01:58:43,000
and I thought it was even more

1552
01:58:43,500 --> 01:58:44,541
Amazing that they got

1553
01:58:44,541 --> 01:58:46,041
buy-in from the communities there

1554
01:58:46,541 --> 01:58:49,041
To uh to try to let them go which is

1555
01:58:49,041 --> 01:58:49,458
something which is

1556
01:58:49,458 --> 01:58:51,083
amazing. That's that's not

1557
01:58:51,500 --> 01:58:53,083
My experience that's not real

1558
01:58:53,083 --> 01:58:54,458
common that you get that again

1559
01:58:54,875 --> 01:58:56,333
I'm more familiar with that where I work

1560
01:58:56,333 --> 01:58:58,083
in africa and it's like any

1561
01:58:58,083 --> 01:58:59,666
protein. It's not going back

1562
01:59:00,041 --> 01:59:01,958
Um, right. I think right, but

1563
01:59:01,958 --> 01:59:03,583
I think the fact he found those

1564
01:59:03,875 --> 01:59:05,666
Uh a couple places in the community is

1565
01:59:05,666 --> 01:59:06,958
buying into it. I think it's a

1566
01:59:06,958 --> 01:59:08,583
fascinating story really really

1567
01:59:08,833 --> 01:59:10,666
Yeah, yeah, it's nice when you when you

1568
01:59:10,666 --> 01:59:12,000
get that buy-in and you don't know

1569
01:59:12,000 --> 01:59:13,791
exactly why but you can you know

1570
01:59:13,791 --> 01:59:16,000
you you you still get it and

1571
01:59:16,375 --> 01:59:19,000
uh, it works it works really well and and

1572
01:59:19,000 --> 01:59:19,750
it just goes to show

1573
01:59:19,750 --> 01:59:20,791
that like some of these

1574
01:59:21,000 --> 01:59:22,708
fishing communities really care and and

1575
01:59:22,708 --> 01:59:24,041
they may not be in a situation where they

1576
01:59:24,041 --> 01:59:25,375
need the protein that

1577
01:59:25,375 --> 01:59:26,916
badly where they have to take a

1578
01:59:26,958 --> 01:59:28,833
Shark like that, but they're able to put

1579
01:59:28,833 --> 01:59:31,000
it back in understanding that there's

1580
01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:32,500
there's more to be had

1581
01:59:32,916 --> 01:59:34,000
uh and and

1582
01:59:34,625 --> 01:59:36,333
More of a benefit to put them back which

1583
01:59:36,333 --> 01:59:38,083
I think is which I think is phenomenal

1584
01:59:38,541 --> 01:59:39,291
It's such an interesting

1585
01:59:39,291 --> 01:59:40,791
career to go into genetics

1586
01:59:41,500 --> 01:59:43,875
You don't hear a lot about that in shark

1587
01:59:43,875 --> 01:59:45,666
science and and we mind you

1588
01:59:45,666 --> 01:59:46,958
we haven't covered a lot of it

1589
01:59:46,958 --> 01:59:48,916
And it's great to be able to have someone

1590
01:59:48,916 --> 01:59:49,916
like Diego come on and

1591
01:59:49,916 --> 01:59:51,541
talk about the impact on

1592
01:59:51,875 --> 01:59:52,708
Conservation that they've

1593
01:59:52,708 --> 01:59:54,791
been able to have this portable

1594
01:59:55,583 --> 01:59:57,666
Device to determine genetics

1595
01:59:57,666 --> 01:59:59,083
very quickly like a pcr machine

1596
02:00:00,208 --> 02:00:02,458
I mean normally it would take a couple of

1597
02:00:02,458 --> 02:00:04,000
days to get you know from the sam to

1598
02:00:04,000 --> 02:00:04,791
getting the sample

1599
02:00:04,791 --> 02:00:05,958
bringing it into the lab

1600
02:00:05,958 --> 02:00:07,750
We're shipping it off to a lab getting

1601
02:00:07,750 --> 02:00:10,500
the the it done and then going away

1602
02:00:10,708 --> 02:00:12,416
He talked about the european eel

1603
02:00:12,833 --> 02:00:15,083
When when they found the two smugglers

1604
02:00:15,083 --> 02:00:17,208
that were bringing it in they that hong

1605
02:00:17,208 --> 02:00:18,250
kong had never been able

1606
02:00:18,250 --> 02:00:19,750
Anybody had never really been able to

1607
02:00:19,750 --> 02:00:21,583
rapidly test to make sure

1608
02:00:21,583 --> 02:00:23,458
that it is the the european eel

1609
02:00:23,500 --> 02:00:25,833
And and it was with his with his

1610
02:00:25,833 --> 02:00:27,458
instrument and they were able to

1611
02:00:27,458 --> 02:00:28,750
persecute or prosecute

1612
02:00:28,750 --> 02:00:30,458
based on based on that

1613
02:00:30,458 --> 02:00:32,291
and I think that's

1614
02:00:32,791 --> 02:00:35,750
That's a huge huge movement of

1615
02:00:35,750 --> 02:00:38,041
conservation to be able to

1616
02:00:38,250 --> 02:00:40,791
Have that rapid result right and I think

1617
02:00:40,791 --> 02:00:41,750
that's that's the big

1618
02:00:41,750 --> 02:00:42,750
thing about this technology

1619
02:00:42,916 --> 02:00:44,541
Is that you can actually use it and

1620
02:00:44,541 --> 02:00:45,750
especially looking at using it

1621
02:00:46,250 --> 02:00:47,833
For almost any animal as long as you have

1622
02:00:47,833 --> 02:00:49,125
the information you need to

1623
02:00:49,125 --> 02:00:50,916
to put in right right right

1624
02:00:50,958 --> 02:00:53,500
Yeah, I mean that's something I I've been

1625
02:00:53,500 --> 02:00:54,916
around the long enough in this field that

1626
02:00:54,916 --> 02:00:56,333
I I can remember decades ago

1627
02:00:56,333 --> 02:00:57,583
He's talked about boy. It'd be nice

1628
02:00:57,583 --> 02:00:58,916
We had something we could use in the

1629
02:00:58,916 --> 02:01:01,291
field to get a rapid identification on

1630
02:01:01,291 --> 02:01:03,041
what species we're looking at

1631
02:01:03,500 --> 02:01:04,625
Because you know, especially if you're

1632
02:01:04,625 --> 02:01:06,125
just looking at fins and they're dry,

1633
02:01:06,125 --> 02:01:07,250
they're different states of

1634
02:01:07,875 --> 02:01:10,041
Being dry. I mean, it's really hard. It's

1635
02:01:10,041 --> 02:01:11,041
you really got to know what you're

1636
02:01:11,041 --> 02:01:12,916
talking about. I mean, I can't

1637
02:01:12,916 --> 02:01:15,000
For the most part a few exceptions. It's

1638
02:01:15,000 --> 02:01:17,208
really hard to tell what's what on those

1639
02:01:17,208 --> 02:01:18,666
on those species and uh

1640
02:01:19,416 --> 02:01:20,791
As far as the end of those species, but

1641
02:01:20,791 --> 02:01:22,708
if you have something rapid a rapid dna

1642
02:01:23,250 --> 02:01:25,791
Uh thing like he talked about man, you

1643
02:01:25,791 --> 02:01:26,500
can figure out the

1644
02:01:26,500 --> 02:01:27,916
species that that's phenomenal

1645
02:01:28,041 --> 02:01:30,125
That's a real to me like agrees haven't

1646
02:01:30,125 --> 02:01:30,791
been around. It's

1647
02:01:30,791 --> 02:01:32,375
amazing to break through

1648
02:01:32,375 --> 02:01:32,791
um

1649
02:01:32,791 --> 02:01:33,125
and

1650
02:01:34,125 --> 02:01:35,333
He's found there

1651
02:01:35,666 --> 02:01:37,333
Although I got I have to say one of the

1652
02:01:37,333 --> 02:01:38,750
things I was interested in

1653
02:01:38,750 --> 02:01:39,541
He didn't really have like a

1654
02:01:39,541 --> 02:01:40,666
lot more he could add to it

1655
02:01:40,666 --> 02:01:42,166
But if we touch on the

1656
02:01:42,166 --> 02:01:44,416
whole hippos in columbia, yes

1657
02:01:45,250 --> 02:01:46,833
I think that was uh

1658
02:01:47,250 --> 02:01:49,333
We talk about sharks and in conservation

1659
02:01:49,333 --> 02:01:51,333
and the sharks and critically endangered

1660
02:01:51,333 --> 02:01:52,833
species like those hammerheads, but

1661
02:01:53,500 --> 02:01:55,708
As we mentioned in the show you have it

1662
02:01:55,708 --> 02:01:57,541
literally an environmental disaster

1663
02:01:57,666 --> 02:01:59,291
That's going to happen if these hippos

1664
02:01:59,291 --> 02:02:01,375
get out into the amazon basin

1665
02:02:02,041 --> 02:02:04,916
And and proliferate as they're doing now

1666
02:02:05,333 --> 02:02:07,666
Um, it's just going to be it's going to

1667
02:02:07,666 --> 02:02:09,791
be just a disaster of beyond

1668
02:02:10,500 --> 02:02:12,250
Magnitude that people with those things

1669
02:02:12,250 --> 02:02:13,750
get out and get into the environment get

1670
02:02:13,750 --> 02:02:15,291
out into the amazon basin there

1671
02:02:15,916 --> 02:02:17,833
and so I hope they come up with some

1672
02:02:18,916 --> 02:02:19,625
some some

1673
02:02:19,958 --> 02:02:22,666
Solution to the issue because it's uh, I

1674
02:02:22,666 --> 02:02:24,708
I know what damage the hippos can do

1675
02:02:24,833 --> 02:02:25,666
But they're part of the

1676
02:02:25,666 --> 02:02:27,375
ecosystem in africa, but boy

1677
02:02:28,208 --> 02:02:29,458
in uh

1678
02:02:29,458 --> 02:02:31,208
In south america, it's

1679
02:02:31,208 --> 02:02:32,625
gonna it's gonna be bad

1680
02:02:33,166 --> 02:02:34,416
So, uh, hopefully they're already

1681
02:02:34,416 --> 02:02:35,458
talking. I just looked it up. They're

1682
02:02:35,458 --> 02:02:38,000
talking about 80 to 120 individuals

1683
02:02:38,000 --> 02:02:39,458
It's the largest hippo

1684
02:02:39,458 --> 02:02:40,750
hurt outside of africa

1685
02:02:41,375 --> 02:02:42,625
Right and as we mentioned in

1686
02:02:42,625 --> 02:02:44,208
the as we mentioned in the uh

1687
02:02:44,833 --> 02:02:46,166
In the show like in the interview

1688
02:02:46,916 --> 02:02:48,000
It's really hard to just

1689
02:02:48,000 --> 02:02:48,916
put them all in the zoo

1690
02:02:48,916 --> 02:02:49,750
There's no zoo that

1691
02:02:49,750 --> 02:02:51,916
can hold 80 to 120 hippos

1692
02:02:51,916 --> 02:02:53,541
It you'd almost have to have like its own

1693
02:02:53,541 --> 02:02:55,625
sanctuary, but with borders to prevent

1694
02:02:55,625 --> 02:02:56,708
them from moving outside

1695
02:02:56,708 --> 02:02:58,625
But they're very territorial so it's it's

1696
02:02:58,625 --> 02:03:00,208
a difficult situation as you mentioned

1697
02:03:00,541 --> 02:03:02,041
The best thing to do maybe at the

1698
02:03:02,041 --> 02:03:03,541
beginning was to euthanize

1699
02:03:03,541 --> 02:03:05,375
them so they don't get you know

1700
02:03:05,375 --> 02:03:06,250
They don't get released

1701
02:03:06,250 --> 02:03:08,083
into the into the wild

1702
02:03:08,541 --> 02:03:10,208
Unfortunately, that's that I feel like

1703
02:03:10,208 --> 02:03:11,916
that ship has sailed and it's like what

1704
02:03:11,916 --> 02:03:12,583
do we there's this

1705
02:03:12,583 --> 02:03:13,708
there's an ethical question

1706
02:03:13,791 --> 02:03:16,750
Of what do we do with these animals to

1707
02:03:16,750 --> 02:03:18,458
one to protect the hippos but also to

1708
02:03:18,458 --> 02:03:19,708
protect the rest of the

1709
02:03:19,708 --> 02:03:21,666
environment in columbia, right?

1710
02:03:22,375 --> 02:03:23,833
Yeah, I guess I took because they're

1711
02:03:23,833 --> 02:03:25,250
non-native like I mean you

1712
02:03:25,250 --> 02:03:26,750
look at non-native program

1713
02:03:26,750 --> 02:03:28,416
I mean we get things like eucalyptus

1714
02:03:28,416 --> 02:03:30,166
trees in here which were brought in 150

1715
02:03:30,166 --> 02:03:31,625
years ago in california

1716
02:03:31,958 --> 02:03:33,250
And they want you to go out and they have

1717
02:03:33,250 --> 02:03:35,125
no problem going out and cutting down a

1718
02:03:35,125 --> 02:03:36,916
eucalyptus tree and getting rid of it

1719
02:03:36,916 --> 02:03:39,250
Uh, right and a number of other species,

1720
02:03:39,250 --> 02:03:41,125
but now when you have an actual animal

1721
02:03:42,208 --> 02:03:45,958
Yeah, like a mammal. Yeah, I think people

1722
02:03:45,958 --> 02:03:47,291
don't with the hippos

1723
02:03:47,291 --> 02:03:49,166
I can talk about I could talk a little

1724
02:03:49,166 --> 02:03:51,166
bit just from my knowledge in africa that

1725
02:03:51,625 --> 02:03:53,708
I don't think people really in north

1726
02:03:53,708 --> 02:03:55,708
america and europe really understand

1727
02:03:56,208 --> 02:03:57,708
These are not the cute little things you

1728
02:03:57,708 --> 02:03:59,458
see in disney movies. These are big

1729
02:03:59,458 --> 02:04:01,083
animals. Yeah, and they're

1730
02:04:01,083 --> 02:04:02,541
really extremely dangerous

1731
02:04:03,166 --> 02:04:05,166
Yeah to try to capture them

1732
02:04:05,833 --> 02:04:08,291
It's it's it's it you're

1733
02:04:08,291 --> 02:04:09,375
you're really talking about

1734
02:04:10,208 --> 02:04:11,833
potentially injuring a lot injuring

1735
02:04:11,833 --> 02:04:13,250
people to try to get them and

1736
02:04:13,791 --> 02:04:15,875
I know I just my personal feeling like

1737
02:04:15,875 --> 02:04:17,500
wouldn't what I know of the situation

1738
02:04:17,666 --> 02:04:18,666
I think they just should do

1739
02:04:18,666 --> 02:04:19,750
what they need to do and just

1740
02:04:20,125 --> 02:04:21,250
go in there and just because they're

1741
02:04:21,250 --> 02:04:22,000
non-native and just

1742
02:04:22,000 --> 02:04:22,958
euthanize them and just

1743
02:04:23,625 --> 02:04:24,791
because again, if those

1744
02:04:24,791 --> 02:04:25,958
things get out into the

1745
02:04:27,291 --> 02:04:30,750
Bigger, uh amazon basin and start, uh

1746
02:04:30,750 --> 02:04:32,916
procreating it's just going to be

1747
02:04:33,500 --> 02:04:34,916
It's it's it's a magic

1748
02:04:35,500 --> 02:04:37,166
Pretty what's going to happen. No, it'll

1749
02:04:37,166 --> 02:04:38,750
be bad. It'll be yeah, we don't know and

1750
02:04:38,750 --> 02:04:40,041
that's the thing with invasive species

1751
02:04:40,041 --> 02:04:41,500
You just don't know what's going to

1752
02:04:41,500 --> 02:04:42,750
happen, but it's not going to have a good

1753
02:04:42,750 --> 02:04:44,708
effect on on what we see now

1754
02:04:45,333 --> 02:04:47,791
In that area, right? So and there's and I

1755
02:04:47,791 --> 02:04:48,125
don't know what the

1756
02:04:48,125 --> 02:04:49,250
population is in africa

1757
02:04:49,250 --> 02:04:51,041
But I know i've been to places where

1758
02:04:51,041 --> 02:04:51,875
there's no shortage of

1759
02:04:51,875 --> 02:04:53,208
hippos around there's

1760
02:04:53,583 --> 02:04:55,666
Right. Yeah, somebody might somebody

1761
02:04:55,666 --> 02:04:57,625
might call me on that but I I just from

1762
02:04:57,625 --> 02:04:58,916
my own personal experience

1763
02:04:59,333 --> 02:05:01,000
I could I could see getting an email now

1764
02:05:01,000 --> 02:05:02,375
like hey dave. They're really endangered

1765
02:05:02,375 --> 02:05:02,958
in africa. Well, they

1766
02:05:02,958 --> 02:05:04,125
might maybe they are but

1767
02:05:04,916 --> 02:05:06,666
You know, but the but the ones in the

1768
02:05:06,666 --> 02:05:08,041
columbia in columbia. They're not going

1769
02:05:08,041 --> 02:05:08,875
to transport them back

1770
02:05:08,875 --> 02:05:10,083
to africa. That's for sure

1771
02:05:10,916 --> 02:05:13,458
Right, right exactly, you know, yeah.

1772
02:05:13,458 --> 02:05:14,833
Yeah. So anyway, so that was a whole

1773
02:05:14,833 --> 02:05:15,500
other that was a whole

1774
02:05:15,500 --> 02:05:16,583
that was a whole direction

1775
02:05:16,583 --> 02:05:18,708
I didn't expect the podcast to go. No

1776
02:05:19,250 --> 02:05:21,250
No, just for you. I just looked it up.

1777
02:05:21,250 --> 02:05:23,500
They are on the brink of getting on the

1778
02:05:23,500 --> 02:05:24,875
endangered species list

1779
02:05:25,083 --> 02:05:27,083
So they're close. Yeah, they're not doing

1780
02:05:27,083 --> 02:05:29,083
well. Let's just say but they're they're

1781
02:05:29,083 --> 02:05:30,500
getting closer to being put on the list

1782
02:05:30,541 --> 02:05:32,833
So, uh, but anyway, this was a like I

1783
02:05:32,833 --> 02:05:33,791
said, this is a phenomenal

1784
02:05:33,791 --> 02:05:35,333
episode that just goes to show

1785
02:05:35,791 --> 02:05:37,666
If you if you create something and like

1786
02:05:37,666 --> 02:05:39,500
from a genetic point of view and a tool

1787
02:05:39,500 --> 02:05:40,791
that could use that could be

1788
02:05:41,083 --> 02:05:42,708
Used on a number of different animals not

1789
02:05:42,708 --> 02:05:43,666
just sharks and rays

1790
02:05:44,291 --> 02:05:45,791
It could be used for a number of

1791
02:05:45,791 --> 02:05:46,500
different applications

1792
02:05:46,500 --> 02:05:48,041
It just goes to show the impact on

1793
02:05:48,041 --> 02:05:49,750
conservation that it has and diego

1794
02:05:49,750 --> 02:05:51,208
certainly has that and i'm looking

1795
02:05:51,208 --> 02:05:52,125
forward to having him

1796
02:05:52,125 --> 02:05:54,541
Back on on the show so we can interview

1797
02:05:54,541 --> 02:05:56,000
him about more of these these special

1798
02:05:56,000 --> 02:05:57,583
projects. So, uh, it

1799
02:05:57,583 --> 02:05:58,583
was great to have diego on

1800
02:05:58,625 --> 02:06:01,833
We'll put uh his instagram handle on uh

1801
02:06:01,833 --> 02:06:02,750
in the show notes so that

1802
02:06:02,750 --> 02:06:03,666
you can get a hold of him

1803
02:06:03,916 --> 02:06:06,458
As well as his website and uh and dave if

1804
02:06:06,458 --> 02:06:07,083
people want to get a hold

1805
02:06:07,083 --> 02:06:08,250
of you, how would they do so?

1806
02:06:09,625 --> 02:06:11,833
Uh instagram is probably most active on

1807
02:06:11,833 --> 02:06:13,000
instagram, but also you can

1808
02:06:13,000 --> 02:06:14,791
go to the beyond jaws youtube

1809
02:06:15,791 --> 02:06:17,750
Site and uh, you know leave us a message

1810
02:06:17,750 --> 02:06:19,291
there and uh the newly

1811
02:06:19,291 --> 02:06:21,708
launched uh, uh, lost shark guy, uh,

1812
02:06:22,208 --> 02:06:23,958
That's a youtube channel with a new

1813
02:06:23,958 --> 02:06:27,041
series that andrew uh helped produce and

1814
02:06:27,041 --> 02:06:28,416
uh denise sota myer

1815
02:06:28,416 --> 02:06:30,125
who's on recently uh filmed

1816
02:06:30,541 --> 02:06:33,375
And uh, you can see what uh about

1817
02:06:33,375 --> 02:06:34,208
traveling for these looking

1818
02:06:34,208 --> 02:06:35,250
for these lost sharks episode

1819
02:06:36,125 --> 02:06:38,583
One is up and episode two be coming up

1820
02:06:38,583 --> 02:06:39,958
here real soon. So anyway,

1821
02:06:39,958 --> 02:06:41,208
please check that out. Yeah

1822
02:06:41,791 --> 02:06:43,416
Searching for a lot of fun series to

1823
02:06:43,416 --> 02:06:45,458
produce. Yeah, it's gonna be a lot of fun

1824
02:06:46,208 --> 02:06:46,791
Well, thank you very

1825
02:06:46,791 --> 02:06:48,208
much. Uh, dave and of course

1826
02:06:48,208 --> 02:06:50,583
Thank you to diego and we all want to all

1827
02:06:50,583 --> 02:06:52,416
of us want to thank you for the listener

1828
02:06:52,416 --> 02:06:54,291
to uh for listening and watching this

1829
02:06:54,291 --> 02:06:56,750
episode we really appreciate you doing so

1830
02:06:56,750 --> 02:06:58,291
and uh, thank you so much

1831
02:06:58,291 --> 02:06:59,500
You've been listening to the beyond jaws

1832
02:06:59,500 --> 02:07:00,958
podcast from dave and i we

1833
02:07:00,958 --> 02:07:01,750
really want to appreciate

1834
02:07:01,750 --> 02:07:03,250
We want to thank you for for doing this.

1835
02:07:03,250 --> 02:07:05,500
We really appreciate it. And uh until

1836
02:07:05,500 --> 02:07:06,375
next time. Have a great

1837
02:07:06,375 --> 02:07:07,791
day and happy conservation