Sawfish Shark Conservation: Why Dr. Barbara Wehringer Studies These Unique Species

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Welcome back to another episode of the

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Beyond Jaws podcast.

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On today's episode, we

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have Dr. Barbara Wehringer,

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who is in Keynes Australia,

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starting her own organization

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because she wanted to remain independent,

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she wanted to remain in Cairns,

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and because there were

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so many soft fish species

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that were there and

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she got to study them.

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And that was her, that

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is her best type of shark.

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That's her shark, that's her thing.

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And we're gonna talk about why soft fish

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are her main shark that she studies.

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And we're gonna talk about how she

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started her organization.

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Can't wait for you to hear this.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody, welcome back

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to another exciting episode

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of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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I am your cohost Andrew Lewin,

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here with my cohost Dr. David Ebert.

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Dave, I'm gonna just

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tease this a little bit.

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Are you ready to go to Keynes Australia,

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do a pub crawl and talk about soft fish?

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Oh, absolutely.

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Absolutely, I'm looking forward to it.

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We can relive our youth, Andrew.

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There we go.

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(laughing) And join up with Barbara and her crew

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and hopefully they'll

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get a discount on that too.

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And just go just hit all the pubs we can

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and promote soft fish.

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Absolutely.

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All the pubs we can.

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You know, so I think she let it slip

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how many were out there.

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So we have to get in shape for that one.

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I think so, I think so.

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Barbara's one of these

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just entrepreneur types.

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You know, we've had Rachel Graham on,

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you know, and several

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others that have just,

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they pursued their passion

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and started their own business,

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you know, a nonprofit

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or private business,

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as well as, and or a nonprofit,

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just because they wanted to

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pursue what they're doing.

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And I think that's fabulous.

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I love having people on like that,

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because they're people that have really

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blazed their own path in the field.

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And they've had to

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learn skills and things

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they never thought they

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would when they were, you know,

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getting their PhD or MSC,

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but they've had to really

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sort of blaze their own trail.

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And I just really enjoy

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having people on like that,

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just because it's such an

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outside the box experience

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for them.

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And I think people will

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really enjoy this episode today

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with Barbara.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah, they're gonna learn

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what it's like to be MacGyver

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and who MacGyver is for some of them

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who don't know who MacGyver is,

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but you know, how to learn how to survive

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and do studies in remote areas.

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You know, I think that's a

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really important component

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to a lot of times when we study sharks

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or we do anything in the marine field,

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you are in a remote area.

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If you're on a boat,

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there's nothing around

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and that could be remote.

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That could be considered remote.

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In this case, you're in a number of

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different river systems

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on Aboriginal land or

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in another remote area

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and there's no access to internet.

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There's no access to satellites.

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You're living off the solar power.

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There's no toilet facilities.

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It could be a little

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rough for a lot of us.

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And so you really learn

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how to survive in those areas

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and not only survive,

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but do your studies to learn

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more about sharks and rays.

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So I think it's gonna be a really

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interesting episode.

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So let's get to the

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interview with Dr. Barbara Waringer,

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looking forward to

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hearing for you to hearing it

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and we will talk to you after.

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Hey Barbara, welcome to

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the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about sharks?

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Absolutely, thank you

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so much for having me.

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Wonderful, I'm looking forward to it.

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It's gonna be fun.

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Well, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast

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where we have Dr. Barbara Waringer,

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an outstanding

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researcher and entrepreneur

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who's the founder and director of Sharks

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and Rays Australia, an NGO.

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She's also an honorary research fellow at

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Macquarie University

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and a research member of

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the Queensland Government

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Culver Carpentaria

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Insure Fishery Working Group,

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which that's a mouthful.

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It sounds really impressive.

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She's also originally

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though Barbara's from Austria,

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but she relocated to

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Australia about 20 years ago

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to pursue her passion

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working on sharks and rays.

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That change in continents led to her

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becoming fascinated,

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particularly with freshwater lasm brinks

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in Northern Queensland,

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which includes sawfish, which I'm sure

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we're gonna hear plenty of today

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because there's her specialty,

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but also river sharks

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and freshwater stingrays.

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Barbara has over 30

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peer reviewed publications,

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numerous research grants,

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and she's co-supervised at

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least nine graduate students.

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And she also makes frequent appearances

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at professional conferences.

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Now, when starting up a business,

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it's one of those things you have to

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develop a lot of skills

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particularly administrative skills and

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media skills that they

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don't teach in biology.

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So we're interested to hear about how she

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developed some of

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those skills today as well.

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She's developed an organization whose

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mission is to conduct research on sharks

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and rays in Australia

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and to educate the public

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about these fascinating animals

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as well as involve them in their work.

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As I mentioned, she's currently, she's

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the founder and director of

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the Sharks and Rays Australia.

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She did her bachelor's and her master's

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degree at the University of Vienna

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in her home country of Austria.

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And then she migrated to Australia to the

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University of

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Queensland where she did her PhD.

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And Barbara, welcome to the show.

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Thank you for having me.

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When you read all my accomplishments off,

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it sounds like a lot.

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I'm like, I don't think

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about this very often.

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Well, you are. You're very accomplished.

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And I just barely scratched the surface.

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So anyway, welcome to the show.

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And we'll start off with our sort of our

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first question we

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typically ask our guests is,

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how did you get interested in marine

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science and the sharks and rays and

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especially being from Austria?

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Yeah, I am. It definitely wasn't a

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straightforward path.

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So I actually when I finished high

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school, I went traveling

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in Australia for six months.

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Right. And I had grown up with a family.

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My parents took us

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traveling all the time.

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And so this was a really

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important part of my life.

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I learned to dive when I was 14 and then

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I came back and I had absolutely no idea.

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What to do. And so I

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started architecture for a year.

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And I quickly realized that I actually

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wasn't interested in designing buildings

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or something like that, because if

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somebody gave me a big piece of land, I

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would I would like to grow a forest

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rather than, you know, cut

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it down and put buildings in.

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And so, yeah, I didn't.

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One night I was in a bar.

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I ran into a friend of mine and she had

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been studying medicine and then she

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started talking about

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how she swapped to biology.

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And she spent half an hour talking about

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the breathing of snails out of all

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things. Interesting.

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I think this is what I want

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to do. I want to study biology.

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And my parents hated me, but they came

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around fairly quickly because we then

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traveled to eat it

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together and went diving.

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And they just, you know, I told them

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everything that I knew about coral reefs

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and they just absolutely loved it.

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So, yeah, this is how it

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just all went from there.

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I have to admit, I think this is the

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first time, Dave, we've heard of somebody

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choosing their path at a bar once they

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heard like about breathing snails.

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And that's what they chose. I love it. I

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love that aspect. That's such an

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Australian thing to do.

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Yeah, it was pretty funny. Yeah. The

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conversations with my parents, they

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absolutely weren't easy.

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But for me, I just realized that I really

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wanted to do that. And I remember, for

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example, sitting in an architecture class

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and they were talking about how there is

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skyscrapers being built with ventilation

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systems or cooling systems that were

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based on termite mounds.

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Right. And so how their structures that

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have been taken out of nature and then

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turned into developments and things.

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And I was like, this is actually really

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interesting. And so I realized for me

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that biological aspect is actually really

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where I want to work

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and where I want to be.

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What were the concerns that your parents

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had when you said, I would like to pursue

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a marine biology degree?

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I don't think it's a profession that is

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known to make people a lot of money.

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Right. And especially being

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in the landlocked country.

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I think my parents were also probably

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concerned about me moving away, which I

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did end up doing. And my brother lives in

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Thailand. So our family is

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now all over the world. Gotcha.

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So, yeah, I mean, they probably had all

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the concerns that good parents have.

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Yeah. But when when you get to follow

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your passion. And what do they what do

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your parents say now, like, based on your

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career now as it is?

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I think they're they're proud. They're

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01:08:22,541 --> 01:08:24,333
proud of it. And, you know, they're

283
01:08:24,333 --> 01:08:26,708
interested in it. They find it. Yeah, I

284
01:08:26,708 --> 01:08:28,833
think they know we have a lot of good

285
01:08:28,833 --> 01:08:29,875
conversations about it.

286
01:08:30,083 --> 01:08:34,250
Nice. So where did you come in? I know

287
01:08:34,250 --> 01:08:35,958
you went you spent some time in Bimini.

288
01:08:35,958 --> 01:08:38,041
Was that how that all come about?

289
01:08:38,083 --> 01:08:42,500
Yes, I when I was studying biology, so I

290
01:08:42,500 --> 01:08:44,625
saw the the system in Austria was

291
01:08:44,625 --> 01:08:46,541
different. So we had the first diploma

292
01:08:46,541 --> 01:08:48,375
and then the second diploma, but you had

293
01:08:48,375 --> 01:08:50,000
to finish the second diploma to get a

294
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:51,916
master's. And so the first diploma is

295
01:08:51,916 --> 01:08:53,583
kind of the equivalent of a bachelor's,

296
01:08:53,583 --> 01:08:54,875
but it wasn't an independent degree.

297
01:08:55,083 --> 01:08:58,375
And that one was biology. And then for my

298
01:08:58,375 --> 01:09:00,333
master's, I spent I wasn't quite sure

299
01:09:00,333 --> 01:09:01,875
what to specialize on. So I was either

300
01:09:01,875 --> 01:09:04,000
coral reefs or sharks. So that was my two

301
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:06,750
big interests. And so what I did is I

302
01:09:06,750 --> 01:09:09,375
joined a field trip to Jordan, the Red

303
01:09:09,375 --> 01:09:12,166
Sea, where we did work on coral reefs

304
01:09:12,166 --> 01:09:14,208
and, you know, worked on transects and

305
01:09:14,208 --> 01:09:15,916
things like that. And it was really cool.

306
01:09:16,833 --> 01:09:18,125
And that same summer,

307
01:09:18,125 --> 01:09:19,041
I also went to Bimini.

308
01:09:20,083 --> 01:09:21,875
And yes, it is my first I handled my

309
01:09:21,875 --> 01:09:23,375
first lemon shark. And I mean, they're

310
01:09:23,375 --> 01:09:25,583
tiny, but I was pretty scared. I knew

311
01:09:25,583 --> 01:09:27,541
that this is what I wanted to do. And so

312
01:09:27,541 --> 01:09:30,583
this, this is really how it came about to

313
01:09:30,583 --> 01:09:33,250
to them work with sharks. And I think

314
01:09:33,250 --> 01:09:36,708
I've learned so much in that short time

315
01:09:36,708 --> 01:09:38,125
that I spent in Bimini that I implement

316
01:09:38,125 --> 01:09:40,625
now. It's it's phenomenal what the group

317
01:09:40,625 --> 01:09:42,041
has set up there. So yeah.

318
01:09:42,083 --> 01:09:46,625
Yeah. How and how was it? A lot of people

319
01:09:46,625 --> 01:09:47,708
came through Bimini. How is

320
01:09:47,708 --> 01:09:48,750
it working with Doc Gruber?

321
01:09:51,083 --> 01:09:57,000
So I spent a month there in 2001 or 2002.

322
01:09:57,291 --> 01:09:59,583
And then I went back for Pete for a month

323
01:09:59,583 --> 01:10:03,000
in 2006, I think after my master's 2005.

324
01:10:04,125 --> 01:10:06,375
And I really enjoyed it. Like, I think we

325
01:10:06,375 --> 01:10:08,916
were all crazy. I was there with Al

326
01:10:08,916 --> 01:10:10,000
Harry, who is now fisheries.

327
01:10:10,083 --> 01:10:13,500
W I was there with Tristan gutridge, who

328
01:10:13,500 --> 01:10:16,541
now runs. Yes. Yeah, save the blue.

329
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:19,750
Charlie who veneers, who is now at

330
01:10:19,750 --> 01:10:22,208
Flinders University doing research and

331
01:10:22,208 --> 01:10:24,875
all kinds of things. So yeah, it was a

332
01:10:24,875 --> 01:10:26,750
lot of fun people have a great team.

333
01:10:27,958 --> 01:10:30,541
Yeah, and just, I think, really nice to

334
01:10:30,541 --> 01:10:33,458
be surrounded by so many people who went

335
01:10:33,458 --> 01:10:35,000
off and did careers and things that they

336
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:36,041
really laughed and yeah.

337
01:10:36,166 --> 01:10:41,208
So after you spent after you spent some

338
01:10:41,208 --> 01:10:43,041
time there, though, then what was sort of

339
01:10:43,041 --> 01:10:45,458
your next? Now this was do you went there

340
01:10:45,458 --> 01:10:46,791
for party initially for part of your

341
01:10:46,791 --> 01:10:51,166
master's thesis research? Yeah, no. So I

342
01:10:51,166 --> 01:10:53,416
went, I went there just to to figure out

343
01:10:53,416 --> 01:10:55,541
if I wanted to work with sharks. And I

344
01:10:55,541 --> 01:10:58,750
remember, yeah, I went back a second time

345
01:10:58,750 --> 01:11:02,208
after my masters. So there's a lot of

346
01:11:02,208 --> 01:11:04,083
stuff in between. So I went to Bimini, then I came back, decided that I wanted to do a lot of research.

347
01:11:06,083 --> 01:11:07,666
And I wanted to work with sharks and

348
01:11:07,666 --> 01:11:10,458
fish. So I then, you know, did a lot of

349
01:11:10,458 --> 01:11:13,458
lectures and coursework in Vienna on that

350
01:11:13,458 --> 01:11:15,416
anything I could get my hands on and

351
01:11:15,416 --> 01:11:17,041
there wasn't anything on sharks. But for

352
01:11:17,041 --> 01:11:18,791
example, one of my professors, he knew

353
01:11:18,791 --> 01:11:20,666
that I was interested in that. So he had

354
01:11:20,666 --> 01:11:22,625
a dogfish in the freezer and I just

355
01:11:22,625 --> 01:11:24,750
grabbed it and dissected it and learn

356
01:11:24,750 --> 01:11:26,958
things. And yeah, I was just really keen

357
01:11:26,958 --> 01:11:28,500
to learn more about it.

358
01:11:28,916 --> 01:11:31,000
And I remember there was one.

359
01:11:32,083 --> 01:11:33,416
There was one course where we had to give

360
01:11:33,416 --> 01:11:35,833
a presentation on a paper. So we had to

361
01:11:35,833 --> 01:11:37,666
learn how to present things. And I went

362
01:11:37,666 --> 01:11:39,375
into the library and back then, you know,

363
01:11:39,375 --> 01:11:42,166
we had floppy disks and couldn't couldn't

364
01:11:42,166 --> 01:11:45,708
access too many things online. And I

365
01:11:45,708 --> 01:11:47,083
remember walking in there and it was a

366
01:11:47,083 --> 01:11:49,166
print edition of a journal. And there was

367
01:11:49,166 --> 01:11:52,291
a paper in there by Steve Kedura. And I

368
01:11:52,291 --> 01:11:55,041
read that paper and gave my presentation

369
01:11:55,041 --> 01:11:59,541
on that. And then I signed up for an

370
01:11:59,541 --> 01:12:01,083
exchange semester to Australia.

371
01:12:02,083 --> 01:12:04,916
I went to Brisbane and realized that

372
01:12:04,916 --> 01:12:06,958
there was a lab there that worked on

373
01:12:06,958 --> 01:12:09,625
electroreception and sharks and rays. And

374
01:12:09,625 --> 01:12:13,583
so I did an internship with them. And

375
01:12:13,583 --> 01:12:16,791
after that, did a year of research in

376
01:12:16,791 --> 01:12:19,000
Australia that was then granted towards

377
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:20,541
my master's thesis in Austria.

378
01:12:21,833 --> 01:12:24,041
So this was really good because I got to

379
01:12:24,041 --> 01:12:25,750
spend a year in Australia doing research

380
01:12:25,750 --> 01:12:27,791
on shovel nose rays and I didn't have to

381
01:12:27,791 --> 01:12:29,916
pay tuition fees, which is a big thing.

382
01:12:30,208 --> 01:12:33,500
Like I got through all my education to my

383
01:12:33,500 --> 01:12:35,458
including my PhD without paying tuition

384
01:12:35,458 --> 01:12:38,916
fees, which is massive. And I'm really

385
01:12:38,916 --> 01:12:41,458
thankful for that. And yeah, so that's

386
01:12:41,458 --> 01:12:43,750
how I fell into electroreception. And

387
01:12:43,750 --> 01:12:45,416
then, you know, I ended up doing my PhD

388
01:12:45,416 --> 01:12:47,458
and having Steve Kedura as my third

389
01:12:47,458 --> 01:12:48,791
supervisor in the US

390
01:12:48,791 --> 01:12:50,083
and working on sawfish.

391
01:12:51,083 --> 01:12:54,166
And so after my master's, I went back to

392
01:12:54,166 --> 01:12:57,375
Bimini. And then after Bimini, a week

393
01:12:57,375 --> 01:13:00,000
later, there was a conference in Tampa,

394
01:13:01,666 --> 01:13:03,166
which was my first conference. And that

395
01:13:03,166 --> 01:13:04,375
was absolutely fantastic.

396
01:13:05,458 --> 01:13:06,916
It's a good first conference to have.

397
01:13:07,125 --> 01:13:09,166
Yeah, it was amazing. I remember partying

398
01:13:09,166 --> 01:13:12,250
with all the Bimini crew, right? So we

399
01:13:12,250 --> 01:13:15,208
had a lot of fun. But then also, and this

400
01:13:15,208 --> 01:13:17,291
was really, really special. Like I am

401
01:13:17,291 --> 01:13:18,458
special. But it was also

402
01:13:18,458 --> 01:13:20,083
funny, like, I'm different now. But

403
01:13:21,083 --> 01:13:22,166
obviously, there was a lot of drinking

404
01:13:22,166 --> 01:13:25,583
involved. And I remember I had to do my

405
01:13:25,583 --> 01:13:29,291
poster. And I remember waking up in the

406
01:13:29,291 --> 01:13:31,208
morning and I was like, Oh my God, I'm

407
01:13:31,208 --> 01:13:32,708
still hang over. I don't know how to do

408
01:13:32,708 --> 01:13:34,625
this poster presentation. And you know,

409
01:13:34,625 --> 01:13:36,541
totally terrified of, you know, there's

410
01:13:36,541 --> 01:13:38,416
so many names there of people that I saw

411
01:13:38,416 --> 01:13:40,375
on TV and so many big chart biologist

412
01:13:40,375 --> 01:13:43,000
names and stuff. And then I'm standing at

413
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:44,583
the poster and I'm like, Okay, I can do

414
01:13:44,583 --> 01:13:48,541
this. And this lady comes up to me and a

415
01:13:48,541 --> 01:13:49,833
young man is pushing her, she's sitting

416
01:13:49,833 --> 01:13:51,041
in her wheelchair and she's

417
01:13:51,041 --> 01:13:53,375
like, Oh, this is so good. You worked on

418
01:13:53,375 --> 01:13:55,666
shovel nose rays. I've worked on shovel

419
01:13:55,666 --> 01:13:58,000
nose rays and PNG, tell me more about it.

420
01:13:58,541 --> 01:14:00,500
And so I told her about it. And it was

421
01:14:00,500 --> 01:14:03,166
Eugene Clark. Wow. And it was just

422
01:14:03,166 --> 01:14:05,375
phenomenal. Because for me, I was so

423
01:14:05,375 --> 01:14:08,125
welcomed into this society. And also,

424
01:14:08,500 --> 01:14:11,875
just just realizing like everybody's just

425
01:14:11,875 --> 01:14:13,375
there because we're passionate about the

426
01:14:13,375 --> 01:14:15,041
animals that we work with. And we really

427
01:14:15,041 --> 01:14:16,125
want to talk about it. And

428
01:14:16,125 --> 01:14:19,458
so, yeah, I, I still like, yeah,

429
01:14:20,041 --> 01:14:22,208
just even to think of presenting in front

430
01:14:22,208 --> 01:14:25,250
of Eugene Clark is intimidating just of

431
01:14:25,250 --> 01:14:27,541
her stature and like as a young student

432
01:14:27,541 --> 01:14:29,458
and having to be able, but the fact that

433
01:14:29,458 --> 01:14:31,458
she was so interested in it, she wants to

434
01:14:31,458 --> 01:14:33,625
know the results. I think that, you know,

435
01:14:33,625 --> 01:14:35,500
that just goes to show, you know, Dave,

436
01:14:35,500 --> 01:14:37,708
you're, you're the same when, when, uh,

437
01:14:37,708 --> 01:14:39,250
you know, talking to you, it's like,

438
01:14:39,250 --> 01:14:41,500
you're generally interested in the

439
01:14:41,500 --> 01:14:42,583
subject matter that people are

440
01:14:42,583 --> 01:14:45,000
presenting, not the fact of judging the

441
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:46,708
people that you're, you know, that are,

442
01:14:46,708 --> 01:14:47,916
that are presenting and you,

443
01:14:47,916 --> 01:14:49,250
you want to know more about it.

444
01:14:49,250 --> 01:14:52,083
And I think that that speaks a lot to to

445
01:14:52,083 --> 01:14:54,125
the, the, the people that are in the

446
01:14:54,125 --> 01:14:56,541
shark science field to be like, I really

447
01:14:56,541 --> 01:14:58,000
want to know what you're, what you're up

448
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:01,541
to. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. If I could

449
01:15:01,541 --> 01:15:04,083
just add on, I know, I know. Well, I met

450
01:15:04,083 --> 01:15:05,875
Jeannie when I was a grad student myself,

451
01:15:05,875 --> 01:15:07,291
just finished my master's.

452
01:15:07,666 --> 01:15:09,791
Um, and then, but I, and then later years

453
01:15:09,791 --> 01:15:11,708
later I had my own students and she was

454
01:15:11,708 --> 01:15:13,708
always the same way that how you describe

455
01:15:13,708 --> 01:15:15,041
Barbara, she was always the same way

456
01:15:15,041 --> 01:15:17,500
she'd come up very much unless you knew

457
01:15:17,500 --> 01:15:19,083
who she was or something, you just start

458
01:15:19,083 --> 01:15:21,041
talking to her and she just had a genuine

459
01:15:21,041 --> 01:15:22,875
interest in what you were doing.

460
01:15:23,666 --> 01:15:25,166
And I know with a couple of my students,

461
01:15:25,166 --> 01:15:27,333
she actually corresponded with them. She

462
01:15:27,333 --> 01:15:28,916
was so interested in the stuff she and

463
01:15:28,916 --> 01:15:30,458
one of them was I had to do a swell

464
01:15:30,458 --> 01:15:31,583
sharks, which was a species

465
01:15:31,583 --> 01:15:33,291
that Jeannie had worked on.

466
01:15:33,291 --> 01:15:35,333
And so she'd actually followed up after a

467
01:15:35,333 --> 01:15:37,000
conference with my student. You imagine a

468
01:15:37,000 --> 01:15:39,375
master student like you were just so

469
01:15:39,375 --> 01:15:40,333
can't believe that Jeannie

470
01:15:40,333 --> 01:15:41,583
Clark followed up with them.

471
01:15:41,625 --> 01:15:44,666
So I just, I just, it's a good, those are

472
01:15:44,666 --> 01:15:46,083
good stories because that was the kind of

473
01:15:46,083 --> 01:15:47,833
person she was. I think younger people

474
01:15:47,833 --> 01:15:49,333
didn't have a chance to meet her. That's

475
01:15:49,333 --> 01:15:51,708
that. That was just always nice to share

476
01:15:51,708 --> 01:15:53,416
those kind of stories with her and stuff.

477
01:15:53,875 --> 01:15:58,166
So yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was good.

478
01:15:58,166 --> 01:15:59,000
Did you, did you have any more

479
01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:00,416
interactions with her after that? Or did

480
01:16:00,416 --> 01:16:00,916
you get to have an

481
01:16:00,916 --> 01:16:02,333
opportunity to talk with her anymore?

482
01:16:04,291 --> 01:16:06,208
Oh, I don't think so. I think, yeah.

483
01:16:08,500 --> 01:16:10,500
Yeah. No, I don't think so. I, yeah,

484
01:16:10,500 --> 01:16:12,500
because I went to Australia fairly

485
01:16:12,500 --> 01:16:15,041
quickly. Like I then spent, I think a

486
01:16:15,041 --> 01:16:18,916
year after that getting married, moving

487
01:16:18,916 --> 01:16:20,791
to South America, bringing my husband

488
01:16:20,791 --> 01:16:22,541
back to Australia with me when I started

489
01:16:22,541 --> 01:16:24,666
my PhD. So pretty

490
01:16:24,666 --> 01:16:27,208
interesting. Yeah. And then.

491
01:16:27,625 --> 01:16:31,791
Big event life. Yeah, but then coming

492
01:16:31,791 --> 01:16:34,625
back to Australia, I'm moving to

493
01:16:34,625 --> 01:16:36,291
Australia. It's like, then, you know, for

494
01:16:36,291 --> 01:16:38,083
me suddenly, like AES was still something

495
01:16:38,083 --> 01:16:39,750
I wanted to go to this conference, but

496
01:16:39,750 --> 01:16:41,666
it's not attainable to go there every

497
01:16:41,666 --> 01:16:44,500
year. So I try every other year, but now

498
01:16:44,500 --> 01:16:47,166
it's more sharks international and yeah.

499
01:16:47,958 --> 01:16:49,166
Yeah. Yeah. The years just

500
01:16:49,166 --> 01:16:50,875
passed quickly, but yeah.

501
01:16:52,041 --> 01:16:54,583
You, you traveled quite a bit, you know,

502
01:16:54,583 --> 01:16:56,666
for doing a lot of different things,

503
01:16:56,666 --> 01:16:58,625
going to Bimini, going to Australia, you

504
01:16:58,625 --> 01:17:01,541
know, starting off in Austria. That's a,

505
01:17:01,541 --> 01:17:04,041
it takes a lot of guts and a lot of

506
01:17:04,041 --> 01:17:06,041
adaptation, you know, to different

507
01:17:06,041 --> 01:17:07,666
cultures and living in different places.

508
01:17:08,625 --> 01:17:11,708
How did that shape you like to who you

509
01:17:11,708 --> 01:17:14,500
are today? Like in your career, I guess,

510
01:17:14,500 --> 01:17:15,750
gotta that's gotta play a pretty

511
01:17:15,750 --> 01:17:17,000
important role, right?

512
01:17:17,750 --> 01:17:20,375
Yeah. So it, it takes guts, but it also

513
01:17:20,375 --> 01:17:23,583
doesn't. I think my parents, this is

514
01:17:23,583 --> 01:17:25,166
something that I really, really

515
01:17:25,166 --> 01:17:28,416
appreciate. Like my mom, my, my

516
01:17:28,416 --> 01:17:30,708
grandparents used to go hunting in

517
01:17:30,708 --> 01:17:32,458
Africa, right? And this is something that

518
01:17:32,458 --> 01:17:36,750
I also find quite interesting because my

519
01:17:36,750 --> 01:17:39,000
grandparents passed away a few years ago.

520
01:17:39,291 --> 01:17:41,833
But if they, if they were alive nowadays,

521
01:17:42,083 --> 01:17:42,958
they would be the biggest

522
01:17:42,958 --> 01:17:44,166
conservationists, right?

523
01:17:44,208 --> 01:17:46,625
But back in the day, in order to show you

524
01:17:46,625 --> 01:17:48,416
appreciation of nature, that's what you

525
01:17:48,416 --> 01:17:50,208
do. You would go hunting if you had the

526
01:17:50,208 --> 01:17:52,291
opportunity. And so this is something

527
01:17:52,291 --> 01:17:54,416
that also really has helped me in the

528
01:17:54,416 --> 01:17:56,125
work that I do nowadays. You know, we

529
01:17:56,125 --> 01:17:58,208
work with sawfish and I come across a lot

530
01:17:58,208 --> 01:18:00,375
of trophies and I really try not to judge

531
01:18:00,375 --> 01:18:02,458
the past because that's what people did

532
01:18:02,458 --> 01:18:04,291
before. They would kill the animals and

533
01:18:04,291 --> 01:18:06,541
take the trophies before we understood

534
01:18:06,541 --> 01:18:07,458
what the impact was.

535
01:18:08,083 --> 01:18:09,583
But so for me, traveling was always

536
01:18:09,583 --> 01:18:11,583
there. It was in my blood, right? And so

537
01:18:11,583 --> 01:18:14,000
it wasn't as much of a challenge as it

538
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:15,125
would be for people who have never

539
01:18:15,125 --> 01:18:18,125
traveled before. But it gave me a really

540
01:18:18,125 --> 01:18:20,166
big appreciation of different cultures

541
01:18:20,166 --> 01:18:23,541
and realizing what different cultures

542
01:18:23,541 --> 01:18:25,791
bring to the table, their importance. And

543
01:18:25,791 --> 01:18:29,000
so I work very closely with a lot of

544
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:31,625
indigenous land and sea ranger groups and

545
01:18:31,625 --> 01:18:33,041
their traditional owners.

546
01:18:33,083 --> 01:18:37,666
But the other thing as well is my, my

547
01:18:37,666 --> 01:18:40,916
parents traveled really rough. So we, you

548
01:18:40,916 --> 01:18:42,500
know, we went to all these countries, but

549
01:18:42,500 --> 01:18:45,750
we, we did it cheap because there wasn't

550
01:18:45,750 --> 01:18:48,625
that much money around. And so there was

551
01:18:48,625 --> 01:18:49,291
a lot of adventures.

552
01:18:49,541 --> 01:18:54,000
And so, you know, I now spend, I spent

553
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:56,458
four months a year now camping in remote

554
01:18:56,458 --> 01:18:59,208
areas where there is no facilities and

555
01:18:59,208 --> 01:19:01,625
take volunteers out in these areas. There

556
01:19:01,625 --> 01:19:03,041
is saltwater crocodiles and I take

557
01:19:03,041 --> 01:19:04,833
volunteers out in these areas and we do

558
01:19:04,833 --> 01:19:07,250
research there. And I think that's

559
01:19:07,250 --> 01:19:09,666
something that I've learned through

560
01:19:09,666 --> 01:19:11,041
growing up with my parents.

561
01:19:11,916 --> 01:19:13,291
Like you were saying, Dave, you were

562
01:19:13,291 --> 01:19:14,625
saying before, there's a lot of skills

563
01:19:14,625 --> 01:19:16,000
that I've learned as an entrepreneur.

564
01:19:17,333 --> 01:19:19,291
Well, I didn't realize that I would as

565
01:19:19,291 --> 01:19:21,500
the principal scientist at Sharks and

566
01:19:21,500 --> 01:19:23,000
Rays Australia, that I would have to know

567
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:24,583
how to change a trailer wheel bearing in

568
01:19:24,583 --> 01:19:25,333
the middle of nowhere.

569
01:19:26,458 --> 01:19:26,625
Yes.

570
01:19:27,500 --> 01:19:27,750
Yes.

571
01:19:28,500 --> 01:19:30,791
So yeah, it's where we are is extremely

572
01:19:30,791 --> 01:19:33,958
remote. There is 100%. You

573
01:19:33,958 --> 01:19:35,166
gotta make things happen.

574
01:19:37,125 --> 01:19:39,875
So yeah, you get to be very resourceful

575
01:19:39,875 --> 01:19:41,166
when you're when you're living that

576
01:19:41,166 --> 01:19:42,333
lifestyle. I'll bet.

577
01:19:43,500 --> 01:19:45,166
Yeah. And I think that's also something

578
01:19:45,166 --> 01:19:47,666
that I've really loved about Bimini. How

579
01:19:47,666 --> 01:19:51,125
Doc was like, you know, he was he was

580
01:19:51,125 --> 01:19:54,333
trying to to not waste things. He was

581
01:19:54,333 --> 01:19:58,125
always trying to reuse things. And and

582
01:19:58,125 --> 01:20:00,458
with that, it gave him the ability with

583
01:20:00,458 --> 01:20:02,833
Bimini to do things in

584
01:20:02,833 --> 01:20:03,500
a way where he probably

585
01:20:03,541 --> 01:20:06,541
need didn't need as much funding because

586
01:20:06,541 --> 01:20:08,791
he wasn't maybe not able to attain that

587
01:20:08,791 --> 01:20:11,000
funding. And that was a big thing for me

588
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:12,375
as well with Sharks and Rays Australia,

589
01:20:12,375 --> 01:20:14,166
like we we didn't have that much funding.

590
01:20:14,833 --> 01:20:16,125
We had funding from Save a Cease

591
01:20:16,125 --> 01:20:18,000
Foundation. But there was a lot of things

592
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:19,583
where I was like, well, if we break that

593
01:20:19,583 --> 01:20:21,708
piece of equipment, then it's going to

594
01:20:21,708 --> 01:20:23,375
take us a while to figure out how to get

595
01:20:23,375 --> 01:20:26,041
that again. So it's you gotta you gotta

596
01:20:26,041 --> 01:20:26,541
get really

597
01:20:26,541 --> 01:20:28,500
resourceful with what you have.

598
01:20:30,458 --> 01:20:34,666
Yeah. Yeah. Are you are you are you

599
01:20:34,666 --> 01:20:37,125
based? Where are you actually based at?

600
01:20:37,125 --> 01:20:39,250
Where are you actually based at that your

601
01:20:39,250 --> 01:20:41,125
your your organization's headquarters?

602
01:20:42,416 --> 01:20:44,333
So I'm based in Kansas, so far North

603
01:20:44,333 --> 01:20:47,083
Queensland. It's where the rainforest

604
01:20:47,083 --> 01:20:48,875
meets the reef. It's absolutely

605
01:20:48,875 --> 01:20:51,583
beautiful. Yeah. It's also the last big

606
01:20:51,583 --> 01:20:56,500
town before you hit Cape York. And one at some point, a lot of people are saying,

607
01:20:56,541 --> 01:20:59,500
um, one at some point, we looked it up,

608
01:20:59,500 --> 01:21:01,333
we were like, how remote is remote,

609
01:21:01,666 --> 01:21:06,000
right? So Cape York has the was it the

610
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:08,750
the the area that it covers the

611
01:21:08,750 --> 01:21:10,791
geographic areas is two thirds the size

612
01:21:10,791 --> 01:21:14,250
of Germany, right? Oh, wow. Yeah. Germany

613
01:21:14,250 --> 01:21:19,750
has 72 million people, right? Cape York

614
01:21:19,750 --> 01:21:21,791
is inhabited by 48,000 people.

615
01:21:23,625 --> 01:21:25,791
Yeah, wow. And the majority of them are

616
01:21:25,791 --> 01:21:28,791
indigenous. So when I say remote, it's

617
01:21:28,791 --> 01:21:32,375
really remote. And it's, um, yeah, it's

618
01:21:32,375 --> 01:21:33,333
pretty special to be able

619
01:21:33,333 --> 01:21:34,833
to work in a place like that.

620
01:21:35,625 --> 01:21:39,916
I bet. I bet. Is it when you, so when you

621
01:21:39,916 --> 01:21:41,291
go out, when you're when you're in the

622
01:21:41,291 --> 01:21:44,000
field up there, you have to like, really

623
01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:46,500
plan out accordingly to pretty much bring

624
01:21:46,500 --> 01:21:47,875
what you're going to need up there.

625
01:21:47,875 --> 01:21:49,250
Because if you have, as you say, if you

626
01:21:49,250 --> 01:21:50,625
have a breakdown or something, you're not

627
01:21:50,625 --> 01:21:51,541
likely to be able to

628
01:21:52,541 --> 01:21:55,250
get a pick it up at a store nearby.

629
01:21:57,041 --> 01:22:00,125
Yeah, so I, I accept interns and also

630
01:22:00,125 --> 01:22:01,791
field assistants and sort of field

631
01:22:01,791 --> 01:22:03,500
assistants quite often it's a bit like

632
01:22:03,500 --> 01:22:06,875
Bimini, their students, they they want to

633
01:22:06,875 --> 01:22:08,750
get experience in doing shark research.

634
01:22:08,750 --> 01:22:10,625
And so they have to pay a financial

635
01:22:10,625 --> 01:22:13,250
contribution to join so that we can make

636
01:22:13,250 --> 01:22:13,500
this happen as well.

637
01:22:13,541 --> 01:22:18,208
And quite often they help packing things

638
01:22:18,208 --> 01:22:21,708
at the beginning. So they learn how to do

639
01:22:21,708 --> 01:22:23,583
Tetris, how do you fit all that stuff,

640
01:22:23,583 --> 01:22:25,083
all that research gear that you need? How

641
01:22:25,083 --> 01:22:27,125
do you fit that into a car and in a boat?

642
01:22:27,125 --> 01:22:27,791
And how do you make it

643
01:22:27,791 --> 01:22:28,500
safe and things like that?

644
01:22:29,541 --> 01:22:33,708
And yeah, it's it's it. It took a while

645
01:22:33,708 --> 01:22:35,208
to figure out what are the things that we

646
01:22:35,208 --> 01:22:36,500
need and what are the things that we

647
01:22:36,500 --> 01:22:38,500
don't need because we don't also want to

648
01:22:38,500 --> 01:22:40,166
have too much stuff. So you're really

649
01:22:40,166 --> 01:22:41,458
gonna you're really gonna make sure

650
01:22:41,458 --> 01:22:42,375
you've got everything but

651
01:22:42,375 --> 01:22:44,208
not not any extra weight.

652
01:22:44,416 --> 01:22:47,041
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess if you get

653
01:22:47,041 --> 01:22:49,000
an intern that has some mechanical skills

654
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:50,833
that probably moves the top of your list

655
01:22:50,833 --> 01:22:51,500
of people to include in the trip.

656
01:22:52,541 --> 01:22:55,583
Absolutely. A lot of a lot of students

657
01:22:55,583 --> 01:22:57,166
approach me and they're like, Oh, you

658
01:22:57,166 --> 01:22:58,666
know, what are the skills that you need?

659
01:22:58,666 --> 01:23:00,083
Like, I'm really interested in GIS and

660
01:23:00,083 --> 01:23:01,500
stuff like that. And I'm always like, I

661
01:23:01,500 --> 01:23:03,416
need like givers. I need I need my

662
01:23:03,416 --> 01:23:05,291
givers. I need people who can who can

663
01:23:05,291 --> 01:23:06,500
make things happen when we're out there.

664
01:23:06,541 --> 01:23:09,875
Yeah, well, how would you like, you know,

665
01:23:09,875 --> 01:23:11,250
for a lot of we have a lot of people who

666
01:23:11,250 --> 01:23:12,583
are just starting out on their career,

667
01:23:12,583 --> 01:23:14,791
some some of their students, where would

668
01:23:14,791 --> 01:23:16,375
you say that they should get that

669
01:23:16,375 --> 01:23:18,708
experience of like trying to figure out

670
01:23:18,708 --> 01:23:20,416
how to be that MacGyver? Some of them

671
01:23:20,416 --> 01:23:22,083
don't even know who MacGyver is. Let's

672
01:23:22,083 --> 01:23:24,250
just let's be honest, right? But you

673
01:23:24,250 --> 01:23:27,166
know, but like, how do you go rage that

674
01:23:27,166 --> 01:23:30,041
raging ourself people? Yeah, I know. But

675
01:23:30,041 --> 01:23:33,500
how how as a as like a student or or like

676
01:23:33,500 --> 01:23:35,166
a graduate student or even some like an

677
01:23:35,166 --> 01:23:35,541
earlier career scientist,

678
01:23:36,791 --> 01:23:39,291
how do you get that experience of just

679
01:23:39,291 --> 01:23:41,250
kind of putting things together?

680
01:23:43,250 --> 01:23:44,875
I think it's about exposing yourself to

681
01:23:44,875 --> 01:23:50,833
things. And I think, you know, my parents

682
01:23:50,833 --> 01:23:52,625
were really upset, for example, when I

683
01:23:52,625 --> 01:23:54,791
said I want to go traveling during my

684
01:23:54,791 --> 01:23:56,958
studies, because they were like, you need

685
01:23:56,958 --> 01:23:59,041
to have that straight career path, you

686
01:23:59,041 --> 01:24:01,333
can't write gaps. And I don't know if

687
01:24:01,333 --> 01:24:04,708
that's different now. But for me, I, if I

688
01:24:04,708 --> 01:24:05,500
look at CVS, I think those career goals,

689
01:24:05,541 --> 01:24:07,125
I think those career gaps are actually

690
01:24:07,125 --> 01:24:08,583
quite important, because those are the

691
01:24:08,583 --> 01:24:11,041
things where you go out, you learn things

692
01:24:11,041 --> 01:24:13,958
about cultures and places, and you put

693
01:24:13,958 --> 01:24:15,666
yourself in situations that you wouldn't

694
01:24:15,666 --> 01:24:17,750
experience in your work environment. But

695
01:24:17,750 --> 01:24:19,958
you also learn about yourself. You know,

696
01:24:19,958 --> 01:24:21,500
one of the things when I moved to

697
01:24:21,500 --> 01:24:23,500
Australia was I realized that I couldn't,

698
01:24:23,500 --> 01:24:26,041
I couldn't leave myself behind, like I, I

699
01:24:26,041 --> 01:24:28,833
bring things to the table that might be

700
01:24:28,833 --> 01:24:31,041
positive and might be negative. But, you

701
01:24:31,041 --> 01:24:32,541
know, some of it is part of my culture,

702
01:24:32,541 --> 01:24:34,500
and that might not be so understood here.

703
01:24:34,541 --> 01:24:38,166
But so I had to learn about myself as

704
01:24:38,166 --> 01:24:39,875
well and figure out what these things are

705
01:24:39,875 --> 01:24:44,333
and stuff like that. So, but I think, I

706
01:24:44,333 --> 01:24:46,041
mean, I think a lot of people won't have

707
01:24:46,041 --> 01:24:49,541
to learn the MacGyver

708
01:24:49,541 --> 01:24:52,500
skills, the way that that we do.

709
01:24:52,541 --> 01:24:57,583
But yeah, I think it's, it's like if

710
01:24:57,583 --> 01:24:58,791
you're in a lab, you're always going to

711
01:24:58,791 --> 01:25:01,166
be welcomed if you go to statistics. If

712
01:25:01,166 --> 01:25:02,541
you do field trips, you're always going

713
01:25:02,541 --> 01:25:04,625
to be welcomed if you know how to fix a

714
01:25:04,625 --> 01:25:05,375
boat engine or something

715
01:25:05,375 --> 01:25:06,916
like that. Yeah, for sure.

716
01:25:06,916 --> 01:25:09,458
That's if that stuff that you'd like

717
01:25:09,458 --> 01:25:12,875
doing, go do it, learn it. Yeah, expand

718
01:25:12,875 --> 01:25:16,125
on that knowledge. So yeah, one of the

719
01:25:16,125 --> 01:25:17,500
biggest things that I ever had to learn

720
01:25:17,500 --> 01:25:20,708
was how to fix instrumentation, like on a

721
01:25:20,708 --> 01:25:21,500
small boat in the middle of the ocean.

722
01:25:21,541 --> 01:25:23,875
When nobody else, you don't have

723
01:25:23,875 --> 01:25:26,083
engineers around to help you, you have to

724
01:25:26,083 --> 01:25:28,791
kind of tinker with it and read up on

725
01:25:28,791 --> 01:25:30,375
electronic engineering so that you could

726
01:25:30,375 --> 01:25:32,000
figure out, you know, how these things

727
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:33,625
work and how you could fix them. And

728
01:25:33,625 --> 01:25:35,541
hopefully you can't because if not, your

729
01:25:35,541 --> 01:25:37,458
entire trip has gone to waste if you

730
01:25:37,458 --> 01:25:39,041
can't get that piece of data, right? And

731
01:25:39,041 --> 01:25:41,875
so it's, it's, it's, you know, sometimes

732
01:25:41,875 --> 01:25:43,000
you put yourself in those pressured

733
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:44,791
situations. And other times you just got

734
01:25:44,791 --> 01:25:46,833
to like, how do I figure this out? You

735
01:25:46,833 --> 01:25:47,500
know, I think that's really important.

736
01:25:48,583 --> 01:25:51,000
Yeah, I really learned a lot about

737
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:53,333
yourself. That's for sure. No, no, I say,

738
01:25:53,333 --> 01:25:55,666
I say I may really agent myself, but I

739
01:25:55,666 --> 01:25:56,791
was kind of fortunate because when I was

740
01:25:56,791 --> 01:25:58,125
doing a lot of the field work in my grad

741
01:25:58,125 --> 01:25:59,208
studies, we didn't have like any

742
01:25:59,208 --> 01:26:00,125
equipment, we had a compass

743
01:26:00,125 --> 01:26:01,750
and a map pretty much was it.

744
01:26:02,083 --> 01:26:03,750
As long as you didn't lose the map and

745
01:26:03,750 --> 01:26:05,458
you didn't have a foggy weather, you

746
01:26:05,458 --> 01:26:07,791
could do the compass. The other

747
01:26:07,791 --> 01:26:09,708
instruments just were not we, it was kind

748
01:26:09,708 --> 01:26:12,708
of pre instrument time. So, so they had

749
01:26:12,708 --> 01:26:13,500
good and bad with that.

750
01:26:14,541 --> 01:26:16,000
But you always use somebody could work on

751
01:26:16,000 --> 01:26:18,125
a car or a truck or whatever. That's,

752
01:26:18,125 --> 01:26:19,500
that was, that was something that was

753
01:26:19,500 --> 01:26:22,083
definitely a bit handy to, to do back in

754
01:26:22,083 --> 01:26:24,666
the day, because there's no, there's

755
01:26:24,666 --> 01:26:25,708
nobody coming to help you

756
01:26:25,708 --> 01:26:27,500
usually allow you places.

757
01:26:27,541 --> 01:26:32,000
How is it like, because obviously you're,

758
01:26:32,000 --> 01:26:33,708
you're, you're, you're German, your first

759
01:26:33,708 --> 01:26:35,708
language, how was it moving to when, when

760
01:26:35,708 --> 01:26:37,166
you went to, I guess you're pretty well

761
01:26:37,166 --> 01:26:38,583
traveled. So you spoke some English

762
01:26:38,583 --> 01:26:41,000
before, but how is that going to a

763
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:41,875
different country and

764
01:26:41,875 --> 01:26:43,750
having to adopt a new language?

765
01:26:45,666 --> 01:26:49,458
I think, well, you've been to Darwin

766
01:26:49,458 --> 01:26:51,541
recently, hey, and for and

767
01:26:51,541 --> 01:26:53,500
the Northern Territory. Yep.

768
01:26:53,541 --> 01:26:56,500
One of the things that I realized in

769
01:26:56,500 --> 01:26:58,500
Australia is the further up you go, the

770
01:26:58,500 --> 01:27:01,208
stronger the slang gets and the harder

771
01:27:01,208 --> 01:27:03,750
people are to understand. So I think in

772
01:27:03,750 --> 01:27:05,083
the beginning in far North Queensland, I

773
01:27:05,083 --> 01:27:05,916
did have some trouble.

774
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:08,916
And I think a lot of people were finding

775
01:27:08,916 --> 01:27:09,500
that quite enjoyable.

776
01:27:10,541 --> 01:27:15,458
But it also, I think, like one of my

777
01:27:15,458 --> 01:27:17,000
first field trips, the guys were like,

778
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:18,708
okay, we got to teach that chick some,

779
01:27:18,708 --> 01:27:20,250
some words. We got to teach her like

780
01:27:20,250 --> 01:27:23,708
she's, she's a vegetarian and, and you

781
01:27:23,708 --> 01:27:25,291
know, all these, they, they chop all the

782
01:27:25,291 --> 01:27:26,708
words off, you know, an ambo is an

783
01:27:26,708 --> 01:27:30,083
ambulance driver and a sparky is a

784
01:27:30,083 --> 01:27:30,500
electrician and things like that.

785
01:27:30,541 --> 01:27:32,958
So you really got to find your way around

786
01:27:32,958 --> 01:27:35,291
in that language. But I love it. I think

787
01:27:35,291 --> 01:27:37,125
it's a beautiful language. Beautiful,

788
01:27:37,125 --> 01:27:38,833
beautiful slang dialect.

789
01:27:39,416 --> 01:27:43,500
Yeah, that's interesting. You talk about

790
01:27:43,500 --> 01:27:47,291
having that certain sort of slang in a

791
01:27:47,291 --> 01:27:49,625
particular area. Just when I went to

792
01:27:49,625 --> 01:27:51,208
South Africa, I was in what's called the

793
01:27:51,208 --> 01:27:52,750
Eastern Cape and they have their own sort

794
01:27:52,750 --> 01:27:54,875
of dialect in that area, which is kind of

795
01:27:54,875 --> 01:27:57,500
a combination of Afrikaans and English.

796
01:27:57,541 --> 01:28:00,375
And it was like the worst place you could

797
01:28:00,375 --> 01:28:01,875
have gone in South Africa to be try to

798
01:28:01,875 --> 01:28:04,166
converse in English because you had to

799
01:28:04,166 --> 01:28:05,500
kind of know both languages. And it was

800
01:28:05,500 --> 01:28:07,416
just a very harsh, harsh language.

801
01:28:07,625 --> 01:28:09,875
And then people are talking about tackies

802
01:28:09,875 --> 01:28:12,708
and bokkies. And I was like, what the

803
01:28:12,708 --> 01:28:17,291
hell? Tackies are tennis shoes and

804
01:28:17,291 --> 01:28:19,125
bokkies are trucks. I had no.

805
01:28:19,541 --> 01:28:22,958
Yeah, it takes a little bit to get used

806
01:28:22,958 --> 01:28:26,083
to for sure. Yeah. So I mean, I like kind

807
01:28:26,083 --> 01:28:27,833
of like you, Barbara, I went to like the

808
01:28:27,833 --> 01:28:29,666
one place where they got a really strong

809
01:28:29,666 --> 01:28:33,250
slang and have their own sort of dialect

810
01:28:33,250 --> 01:28:35,041
there. So you think you

811
01:28:35,041 --> 01:28:35,916
think you're in English.

812
01:28:36,541 --> 01:28:43,500
But I think it's also for me, a lot of a

813
01:28:43,500 --> 01:28:45,208
lot of the indigenous people that I work

814
01:28:45,208 --> 01:28:48,041
with for them English for some of them

815
01:28:48,041 --> 01:28:49,500
English is like the sixth language.

816
01:28:49,875 --> 01:28:53,500
Right. So, yeah. So they speak they speak

817
01:28:53,500 --> 01:28:56,166
their languages. And because of there's a

818
01:28:56,166 --> 01:28:57,916
lot of connectivity between the different

819
01:28:57,916 --> 01:29:00,000
groups on the Cape. So they all speak a

820
01:29:00,000 --> 01:29:01,875
lot of different languages. And yes, it's

821
01:29:01,875 --> 01:29:03,458
a it's a really important. It's a really

822
01:29:03,458 --> 01:29:05,458
important thing as well. Yeah. Yeah.

823
01:29:06,541 --> 01:29:08,666
Yeah. You obviously work with you. Have

824
01:29:08,666 --> 01:29:09,791
you picked up any of the indigenous

825
01:29:09,791 --> 01:29:13,750
language at all yourself? No, I haven't.

826
01:29:13,750 --> 01:29:16,000
No, I haven't. Yeah. And I probably a

827
01:29:16,000 --> 01:29:17,458
difficult language though, right? Because

828
01:29:17,458 --> 01:29:19,041
it's probably not based in anything that

829
01:29:19,041 --> 01:29:22,416
we've known, you know, Germany or or like

830
01:29:22,416 --> 01:29:24,791
the Spanish related and Spanish, French

831
01:29:24,791 --> 01:29:27,916
and Portuguese and stuff. Right. Yeah.

832
01:29:27,916 --> 01:29:29,791
It's very different. Yeah. Yeah. And

833
01:29:29,791 --> 01:29:33,500
there's so many languages. Yeah. Yeah.

834
01:29:33,500 --> 01:29:35,500
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

835
01:29:35,541 --> 01:29:37,625
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a similar thing in

836
01:29:37,625 --> 01:29:39,666
an Africa where like that the coastal

837
01:29:39,666 --> 01:29:41,208
language was a lot of clicks and whistles

838
01:29:41,208 --> 01:29:43,750
to it. It's just like what no way I can

839
01:29:43,750 --> 01:29:48,458
pick that up. Yeah. So, yeah. So how you

840
01:29:48,458 --> 01:29:50,458
see and share with how did you first

841
01:29:50,458 --> 01:29:52,500
really get the the sawfish where it was

842
01:29:52,500 --> 01:29:54,041
really kind of you decide that was going

843
01:29:54,041 --> 01:29:55,333
to be your species of choice.

844
01:29:57,000 --> 01:30:01,458
Yeah, so I did my masters, I'm shaking my

845
01:30:01,458 --> 01:30:03,250
head because I think that Sawfish kind of

846
01:30:03,375 --> 01:30:05,875
picked me in some weird way, but yeah.

847
01:30:07,625 --> 01:30:11,041
I was working with Shovel Knows Race for

848
01:30:11,041 --> 01:30:13,791
my masters and then I

849
01:30:13,791 --> 01:30:14,791
wanted to stay in Australia

850
01:30:14,958 --> 01:30:17,250
and I wanted to do a PhD and I wanted to

851
01:30:17,250 --> 01:30:18,833
find something that

852
01:30:18,833 --> 01:30:20,541
hadn't been worked on and

853
01:30:20,833 --> 01:30:21,833
do something that was new.

854
01:30:22,791 --> 01:30:24,875
I came across Sawfish somehow and

855
01:30:24,875 --> 01:30:26,208
realised that nobody had

856
01:30:26,208 --> 01:30:27,500
looked at how they use their

857
01:30:27,500 --> 01:30:29,916
saw or their sensory

858
01:30:29,916 --> 01:30:31,541
biology or anything like that.

859
01:30:32,583 --> 01:30:34,833
So I got really interested in that and I

860
01:30:34,833 --> 01:30:37,083
then flew to Cairns to

861
01:30:37,083 --> 01:30:39,833
meet with Lyle who is the

862
01:30:39,833 --> 01:30:41,625
owner of Cairns Marine, it's an aquarium

863
01:30:41,625 --> 01:30:42,708
fish collecting company

864
01:30:42,708 --> 01:30:44,041
and back then they were

865
01:30:44,208 --> 01:30:46,000
allowed to collect Sawfish from the wild

866
01:30:46,000 --> 01:30:48,250
and ship them to public

867
01:30:48,250 --> 01:30:49,375
aquaria around the world.

868
01:30:50,500 --> 01:30:51,791
So I think most of the Sawfish that you

869
01:30:51,791 --> 01:30:52,750
see in captivity around

870
01:30:52,750 --> 01:30:54,125
the world now are from

871
01:30:54,125 --> 01:30:54,583
Cairns Marine.

872
01:30:55,250 --> 01:30:59,958
And so we had a chat and I set up a

873
01:30:59,958 --> 01:31:01,333
project basically then to

874
01:31:01,333 --> 01:31:03,833
work with them and use that

875
01:31:03,833 --> 01:31:07,625
time between the animals coming in from

876
01:31:07,625 --> 01:31:08,583
the wild and being sent

877
01:31:08,583 --> 01:31:09,666
to the aquarium to use

878
01:31:09,666 --> 01:31:11,250
that time to do experiments with them.

879
01:31:12,500 --> 01:31:14,000
And I think I do remember that Steve

880
01:31:14,000 --> 01:31:14,791
Kajurra at some point

881
01:31:14,791 --> 01:31:16,125
was in Cairns as well and I

882
01:31:16,125 --> 01:31:17,625
showed him the tanks at Cairns Marine and

883
01:31:17,625 --> 01:31:19,708
I was like, I felt like I had to peel him

884
01:31:19,750 --> 01:31:21,416
off the window again because he was just

885
01:31:21,416 --> 01:31:22,125
like, he was just

886
01:31:22,125 --> 01:31:23,000
like, oh my God, there's

887
01:31:23,000 --> 01:31:24,375
Sawfish in there.

888
01:31:27,791 --> 01:31:29,333
They're just fascinating animals.

889
01:31:31,625 --> 01:31:35,541
Yeah. So they sort of

890
01:31:35,541 --> 01:31:37,125
picked you to do a thing.

891
01:31:37,750 --> 01:31:40,125
So once you kind of got onto the Sawfish

892
01:31:40,125 --> 01:31:41,458
thing, what was sort of your next?

893
01:31:43,458 --> 01:31:45,083
How do you say that?

894
01:31:46,375 --> 01:31:46,916
Yeah, go ahead.

895
01:31:47,458 --> 01:31:52,500
Yeah, so I did my PhD with them and that

896
01:31:52,500 --> 01:31:55,125
was my first introduction into field work

897
01:31:55,125 --> 01:31:56,291
in Cape York as well.

898
01:31:57,041 --> 01:31:58,083
And saltwater crocodiles.

899
01:31:59,083 --> 01:32:01,750
So I had learned gill netting in Bimini

900
01:32:01,750 --> 01:32:03,375
and I had learned how to

901
01:32:03,375 --> 01:32:04,458
handle sharks and rays.

902
01:32:04,708 --> 01:32:06,875
But then going up there with Cairns

903
01:32:06,875 --> 01:32:09,291
Marine, like we would catch Sawfish in

904
01:32:09,291 --> 01:32:10,666
the wild and also spear two sharks.

905
01:32:11,000 --> 01:32:12,583
We brought the first spear two sharks

906
01:32:12,583 --> 01:32:13,625
back into captivity.

907
01:32:15,125 --> 01:32:17,083
Yeah. So we had trucks with I think it

908
01:32:17,083 --> 01:32:19,333
was 12,000 liter tanks at the back of it.

909
01:32:19,333 --> 01:32:21,000
And in the middle of nowhere had to put

910
01:32:21,000 --> 01:32:22,625
these animals into those tanks and then

911
01:32:22,625 --> 01:32:23,708
bring them back to Cairns,

912
01:32:23,708 --> 01:32:25,833
make sure they don't just survive.

913
01:32:26,125 --> 01:32:27,708
But really everything

914
01:32:27,708 --> 01:32:29,125
goes well for them as well.

915
01:32:31,416 --> 01:32:32,791
And these river systems, there was

916
01:32:32,791 --> 01:32:34,333
something about Cape York that just

917
01:32:34,333 --> 01:32:36,000
totally fascinated me about it.

918
01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:40,666
And it's, you know, it's not the the

919
01:32:40,666 --> 01:32:43,583
crystal clear waters and the palm trees

920
01:32:43,583 --> 01:32:44,083
and the blue lagoons.

921
01:32:45,083 --> 01:32:46,875
And now it is murky. The waters are full

922
01:32:46,875 --> 01:32:49,833
of jellyfish. There is sand flies. You've

923
01:32:49,833 --> 01:32:50,958
got mangroves. You've

924
01:32:50,958 --> 01:32:52,083
got saltwater crocodiles.

925
01:32:52,750 --> 01:32:54,000
Sometimes the water is so murky, you

926
01:32:54,000 --> 01:32:55,333
can't even see the propeller on your

927
01:32:55,333 --> 01:32:59,250
boat. So, yeah, and it's it gets hot.

928
01:32:59,250 --> 01:33:00,625
Like it was really tough work. But for

929
01:33:00,625 --> 01:33:02,458
me, somehow it was like I was like, this

930
01:33:02,458 --> 01:33:04,083
is this is where I want to be.

931
01:33:04,083 --> 01:33:04,875
I got stuck on that.

932
01:33:07,083 --> 01:33:09,625
I just absolutely loved it. I just yeah,

933
01:33:09,625 --> 01:33:10,625
it was just yeah, this

934
01:33:10,625 --> 01:33:12,000
is such a great place.

935
01:33:12,083 --> 01:33:13,083
I think also because it's

936
01:33:13,083 --> 01:33:15,416
so untouched and remote.

937
01:33:17,083 --> 01:33:18,291
Yeah, it's really special.

938
01:33:19,083 --> 01:33:20,125
Yeah, I can imagine.

939
01:33:21,500 --> 01:33:24,041
Did you say when you're up there doing

940
01:33:24,041 --> 01:33:25,625
the sawfish, did you start when you

941
01:33:25,625 --> 01:33:26,958
started running the some of these river

942
01:33:26,958 --> 01:33:28,333
sharks, glyphosate up there?

943
01:33:29,875 --> 01:33:32,333
Yes. So we did one trip with Cairns

944
01:33:32,333 --> 01:33:34,291
Marine where we brought some some

945
01:33:34,291 --> 01:33:36,333
spiritual sharks back and

946
01:33:36,333 --> 01:33:38,000
they were at Melbourne Aquarium.

947
01:33:38,125 --> 01:33:41,541
And I also did experiments with them in

948
01:33:41,541 --> 01:33:43,208
captivity for the electroceptive

949
01:33:43,208 --> 01:33:46,000
abilities. There's a lot of stuff from my

950
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:48,000
PhD. I still need to publish.

951
01:33:48,500 --> 01:33:52,583
I've run into my my PhD supervisor. The

952
01:33:52,583 --> 01:33:53,333
conference is like,

953
01:33:53,333 --> 01:33:55,041
how's that paper going?

954
01:33:57,083 --> 01:33:58,666
It's coming. It's coming.

955
01:33:59,125 --> 01:34:01,250
Yeah, I try. I do try to get some of the

956
01:34:01,250 --> 01:34:02,875
old papers out because I think they are

957
01:34:02,875 --> 01:34:05,541
really, really important. But

958
01:34:05,541 --> 01:34:07,083
yeah, it's busy times always.

959
01:34:08,083 --> 01:34:09,791
Yeah.

960
01:34:09,791 --> 01:34:11,958
Yeah. And then also that was the first

961
01:34:11,958 --> 01:34:13,708
time I came across freshwater whipprais

962
01:34:13,708 --> 01:34:14,333
and they're also

963
01:34:14,333 --> 01:34:15,208
really fascinating species.

964
01:34:15,541 --> 01:34:17,458
Oh, wow.

965
01:34:18,083 --> 01:34:20,500
Have you done it? Have you done much on

966
01:34:20,500 --> 01:34:21,916
the whipprais at all or just?

967
01:34:22,833 --> 01:34:23,625
Yeah. So we.

968
01:34:24,250 --> 01:34:26,041
They.

969
01:34:27,250 --> 01:34:29,375
So we're talking about your gymnast

970
01:34:29,375 --> 01:34:31,541
Dalian says so they're the Australian

971
01:34:31,541 --> 01:34:32,708
freshwater whipprai and

972
01:34:32,708 --> 01:34:35,000
they got separated from the.

973
01:34:36,083 --> 01:34:38,875
Is it the Asian giant whipprai that huge

974
01:34:38,875 --> 01:34:40,416
one that grows to two meters this quick.

975
01:34:40,416 --> 01:34:43,125
They got separated as a species in 2008.

976
01:34:44,416 --> 01:34:47,708
And yeah, we've we've got a paper that

977
01:34:47,708 --> 01:34:50,875
I'm working on at the moment and it is

978
01:34:50,875 --> 01:34:54,791
expanding the range. But it's also in

979
01:34:54,791 --> 01:34:57,541
collaboration or in partnership with the

980
01:34:57,541 --> 01:35:00,083
traditional owners that I work with.

981
01:35:00,083 --> 01:35:02,500
And so it's a range expansion. But we're

982
01:35:02,500 --> 01:35:04,500
then also showing that these animals are

983
01:35:04,500 --> 01:35:07,958
found in rock art on the East Coast. And

984
01:35:07,958 --> 01:35:10,875
so that that also shows that this range

985
01:35:10,875 --> 01:35:12,833
extension is not it's probably not a

986
01:35:12,833 --> 01:35:14,541
recent occurrence because some of the

987
01:35:14,541 --> 01:35:16,541
rock art is about 11000 years old.

988
01:35:17,666 --> 01:35:19,041
So it's really it's really cool stuff

989
01:35:19,041 --> 01:35:20,291
where I find it just brings everything

990
01:35:20,291 --> 01:35:21,083
together that we do.

991
01:35:22,083 --> 01:35:25,833
Yeah. And they get their fascinating

992
01:35:25,833 --> 01:35:27,333
species and they're also beautiful to

993
01:35:27,333 --> 01:35:29,916
work with. So when you got volunteers and

994
01:35:29,916 --> 01:35:31,958
interns out and then they learn how to

995
01:35:31,958 --> 01:35:33,583
handle sharks and raise the whipprais

996
01:35:33,583 --> 01:35:34,791
always good fun for everybody.

997
01:35:35,375 --> 01:35:35,875
Yeah.

998
01:35:37,166 --> 01:35:38,583
Favorite pancake. I can

999
01:35:38,583 --> 01:35:39,083
see that favorite pancake.

1000
01:35:40,083 --> 01:35:47,791
So so you so you've been up there. So

1001
01:35:47,791 --> 01:35:51,500
you're focused on the on the I guess what

1002
01:35:51,500 --> 01:35:53,375
backup. What species are you getting up

1003
01:35:53,375 --> 01:35:54,958
there of sawfish now.

1004
01:35:56,083 --> 01:35:58,708
So we got all four Australian species in

1005
01:35:58,708 --> 01:36:01,583
our data set and we've got one location

1006
01:36:01,583 --> 01:36:03,416
in Queensland as well where you can catch

1007
01:36:03,416 --> 01:36:04,416
all four species of

1008
01:36:04,416 --> 01:36:06,125
selfish in the same bay.

1009
01:36:06,833 --> 01:36:07,083
Wow. So it's pretty special. Yeah.

1010
01:36:08,083 --> 01:36:13,333
Yeah. Having said that in Queensland we

1011
01:36:13,333 --> 01:36:15,500
we don't see as many selfish as I would

1012
01:36:15,500 --> 01:36:18,458
like to. So I think that also keeps me on

1013
01:36:18,458 --> 01:36:19,541
my toes and makes it pretty

1014
01:36:19,541 --> 01:36:20,833
special when we catch a selfish.

1015
01:36:21,916 --> 01:36:23,583
So yeah there's a lot of conservation

1016
01:36:23,583 --> 01:36:27,708
work that I have to do as well. So I see

1017
01:36:27,708 --> 01:36:29,083
you get four of these selfish which gets pretty large and they all occur in this co-occur from an ecological standpoint. That's just kind of a big thing.

1018
01:36:41,708 --> 01:36:43,125
And it's something that we're looking

1019
01:36:43,125 --> 01:36:45,750
into. So I collaborate with Ross Dwyer

1020
01:36:45,750 --> 01:36:47,083
from University of the Sunshine Coast and he's he's an animal tracking expert. So there's an animal tracking aspect to this study obviously and but it's a very interesting study.

1021
01:36:47,125 --> 01:37:01,333
And I think we started we started this

1022
01:37:01,333 --> 01:37:04,958
work in in my pool back in 2017. So

1023
01:37:04,958 --> 01:37:07,083
there's there's a lot of effort that goes

1024
01:37:07,083 --> 01:37:09,166
into catching these animals and then you

1025
01:37:09,166 --> 01:37:10,000
know downloading those

1026
01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:11,083
receivers in remote areas.

1027
01:37:11,125 --> 01:37:15,333
And so I think that paper is going to

1028
01:37:15,333 --> 01:37:19,208
highlight some of those. Yeah. Why are

1029
01:37:19,208 --> 01:37:21,291
these animals co-occurring but also what

1030
01:37:21,291 --> 01:37:23,125
what are the differences of habitat that

1031
01:37:23,125 --> 01:37:25,083
they require within and within that bay

1032
01:37:25,083 --> 01:37:26,000
you can really look at

1033
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:27,333
that niche partitioning.

1034
01:37:27,333 --> 01:37:28,875
So it's it's it's really exciting stuff

1035
01:37:28,875 --> 01:37:31,291
but we're not fully there yet. So I have

1036
01:37:31,291 --> 01:37:33,083
ideas about it. But yeah.

1037
01:37:34,083 --> 01:37:36,666
Yeah. Yeah. Just it's just fascinating.

1038
01:37:36,666 --> 01:37:38,916
You got these four large rays basically

1039
01:37:38,916 --> 01:37:41,208
just kind of do it. It's morphological.

1040
01:37:41,208 --> 01:37:43,083
Okay. Look like they do the same thing.

1041
01:37:43,083 --> 01:37:45,708
And yet they're all sort of there. It's

1042
01:37:45,708 --> 01:37:46,666
just yeah. It's just kind of interesting.

1043
01:37:47,125 --> 01:37:50,291
But they don't. And so this is you know

1044
01:37:50,291 --> 01:37:52,041
this is what I loved about sensory

1045
01:37:52,041 --> 01:37:54,458
biology as well when I did my PhD that

1046
01:37:54,458 --> 01:37:57,250
you know you somebody puts a shark in

1047
01:37:57,250 --> 01:37:59,333
front of you a dead shark and you just

1048
01:37:59,333 --> 01:38:01,666
look at the sensory systems and based on

1049
01:38:01,666 --> 01:38:03,875
that it gives you an idea of probably

1050
01:38:03,875 --> 01:38:05,750
what the habitat requirements of that

1051
01:38:05,750 --> 01:38:08,208
species are. But then also where where

1052
01:38:08,208 --> 01:38:10,250
would it occur. You know is it or or how

1053
01:38:10,250 --> 01:38:12,166
would it catch its food stuff like that.

1054
01:38:12,166 --> 01:38:12,958
So I find that I find

1055
01:38:12,958 --> 01:38:13,625
it super interesting.

1056
01:38:14,125 --> 01:38:18,208
Yeah. Yeah. Really interesting. Yeah.

1057
01:38:18,416 --> 01:38:20,750
Yeah. And so with sawfish as well you can

1058
01:38:20,750 --> 01:38:23,916
see that the the size of the eyes across

1059
01:38:23,916 --> 01:38:26,000
the species gives an indication of the

1060
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:27,250
murkiness of the

1061
01:38:27,250 --> 01:38:28,083
habitat things like that.

1062
01:38:28,125 --> 01:38:32,666
So can you like have you created models

1063
01:38:32,666 --> 01:38:35,833
on you know what you know of the of the

1064
01:38:35,833 --> 01:38:37,958
different systems compared to the

1065
01:38:37,958 --> 01:38:40,041
different species of the likelihood of

1066
01:38:40,041 --> 01:38:42,500
where you would be able to find some of

1067
01:38:42,500 --> 01:38:43,083
these some of these sharks.

1068
01:38:43,083 --> 01:38:48,583
Or can you do that based on the on this

1069
01:38:48,583 --> 01:38:50,833
like taking one of the species and

1070
01:38:50,833 --> 01:38:52,625
looking at you know like you said size of

1071
01:38:52,625 --> 01:38:54,875
the eye and looking at no general

1072
01:38:54,875 --> 01:38:57,333
murkiness of a water. These would be the

1073
01:38:57,333 --> 01:38:59,333
general areas that we would we may or may

1074
01:38:59,333 --> 01:39:01,666
not be able to find those sharks. Yeah.

1075
01:39:01,666 --> 01:39:04,208
So I think I think that that research has

1076
01:39:04,208 --> 01:39:05,500
been done. It's it's kind of like the

1077
01:39:05,500 --> 01:39:07,000
stuff that Carrie your book did where she

1078
01:39:07,000 --> 01:39:08,541
looked at brain sensory

1079
01:39:08,541 --> 01:39:09,083
brain areas and things like that.

1080
01:39:10,083 --> 01:39:15,250
For me it's I I got stuck on selfish

1081
01:39:15,250 --> 01:39:17,500
right. Like I mean we we work up any

1082
01:39:17,500 --> 01:39:19,291
shark array that we have in our gear that

1083
01:39:19,291 --> 01:39:21,000
we catch and we do collect data on them

1084
01:39:21,000 --> 01:39:22,625
but I got stuck on selfish so I wasn't

1085
01:39:22,625 --> 01:39:24,500
really doing the the large comparisons

1086
01:39:24,500 --> 01:39:26,708
across a lot of different species. Right.

1087
01:39:27,000 --> 01:39:29,000
But within selfish I do understand which

1088
01:39:29,000 --> 01:39:31,541
which habitats. Yeah. You know you find

1089
01:39:31,541 --> 01:39:33,291
this species more rather than that

1090
01:39:33,291 --> 01:39:35,000
species. You know there is a mangrove

1091
01:39:35,000 --> 01:39:36,875
association whereas the other species is

1092
01:39:36,875 --> 01:39:38,083
more found over sandy beaches.

1093
01:39:38,125 --> 01:39:41,291
And then you have freshwater selfish if

1094
01:39:41,291 --> 01:39:43,041
you go up upstream into pure freshwater

1095
01:39:43,041 --> 01:39:44,791
areas that's where you're going to find

1096
01:39:44,791 --> 01:39:46,666
fresh water selfish freshwater with

1097
01:39:46,666 --> 01:39:48,791
braids and bull sharks. So and can like

1098
01:39:48,791 --> 01:39:51,083
from a conservation standpoint and maybe

1099
01:39:51,083 --> 01:39:53,250
like a reintroduction standpoint can you

1100
01:39:53,250 --> 01:39:54,000
you know these are

1101
01:39:54,000 --> 01:39:55,083
obviously endangered species.

1102
01:39:55,125 --> 01:39:58,291
They can you if you do put a program

1103
01:39:58,291 --> 01:40:01,583
together to reintroduce or put selfish in

1104
01:40:01,583 --> 01:40:05,125
areas where they might do better based on

1105
01:40:05,125 --> 01:40:07,250
their sensory organs can you can you do

1106
01:40:07,250 --> 01:40:09,291
that or is that possible to like put them

1107
01:40:09,291 --> 01:40:11,000
in a new system that that would be good

1108
01:40:11,000 --> 01:40:13,041
for them based on the sensory.

1109
01:40:24,125 --> 01:40:25,791
And that corresponds to about eight to

1110
01:40:25,791 --> 01:40:28,875
ten years. So I think the only place in

1111
01:40:28,875 --> 01:40:30,625
the world where captive breeding has been

1112
01:40:30,625 --> 01:40:32,791
successful so far is Atlantis in the

1113
01:40:32,791 --> 01:40:34,750
Bahamas. Right. And that's the fifth

1114
01:40:34,750 --> 01:40:36,500
species of selfish. So with the other

1115
01:40:36,500 --> 01:40:38,208
four it hasn't been it hasn't been

1116
01:40:38,208 --> 01:40:42,791
possible. And yeah I think so I think

1117
01:40:42,791 --> 01:40:44,708
that's a that's a tricky one because it

1118
01:40:44,708 --> 01:40:45,958
just takes such a long

1119
01:40:45,958 --> 01:40:47,083
time. And yeah for sure.

1120
01:40:47,083 --> 01:40:49,250
It's it's yeah.

1121
01:40:49,333 --> 01:40:51,958
Do you know you do it part of your.

1122
01:40:52,958 --> 01:40:54,083
I would say part of your stuff you're all

1123
01:40:54,083 --> 01:40:56,375
you're doing you you you have a citizen

1124
01:40:56,375 --> 01:40:58,041
science program where you're in the

1125
01:40:58,041 --> 01:41:00,083
community looking at I guess going to

1126
01:41:00,083 --> 01:41:02,708
bars among other places looking at the

1127
01:41:02,708 --> 01:41:04,916
roster and the saw saws that are in these

1128
01:41:04,916 --> 01:41:07,916
various drinking establishments.

1129
01:41:09,208 --> 01:41:11,583
And has that been very

1130
01:41:11,583 --> 01:41:14,708
has it been very fruitful.

1131
01:41:16,125 --> 01:41:17,958
Yeah absolutely I love I love the citizen

1132
01:41:17,958 --> 01:41:21,500
science component of our work. So and

1133
01:41:21,500 --> 01:41:23,000
this is also this is a language story

1134
01:41:23,000 --> 01:41:28,000
right. When I did my PhD and I moved to

1135
01:41:28,000 --> 01:41:29,583
to Kansas and far north Queensland fairly

1136
01:41:29,583 --> 01:41:31,208
quickly because I realized that I had to

1137
01:41:31,208 --> 01:41:34,125
spend more time here doing those those

1138
01:41:34,125 --> 01:41:34,875
experiments in the

1139
01:41:34,875 --> 01:41:35,625
tanks with the animals.

1140
01:41:36,416 --> 01:41:38,250
And so you know I would go to a bar and

1141
01:41:38,250 --> 01:41:39,583
people would be like oh so what are you

1142
01:41:39,583 --> 01:41:41,458
doing. I'm like I'm doing a PhD and

1143
01:41:41,458 --> 01:41:42,458
they're like oh so you work with

1144
01:41:42,458 --> 01:41:45,208
dolphins. No I work with selfish and

1145
01:41:45,208 --> 01:41:45,791
they're like oh

1146
01:41:45,791 --> 01:41:47,416
starfish. I love starfish.

1147
01:41:48,250 --> 01:41:51,708
And I think I wrote a post about this on

1148
01:41:51,708 --> 01:41:54,208
the homepage and I'm like you know I'm I

1149
01:41:54,208 --> 01:41:58,000
was in the global stronghold for four out

1150
01:41:58,000 --> 01:42:00,333
of five species and people think I'm

1151
01:42:00,333 --> 01:42:01,708
talking about starfish and I

1152
01:42:01,708 --> 01:42:03,083
was like I am done with this.

1153
01:42:03,083 --> 01:42:05,041
They need to know what the selfish is.

1154
01:42:06,000 --> 01:42:07,583
And so I was really like I need to you

1155
01:42:07,583 --> 01:42:09,208
know I did a media training and I was

1156
01:42:09,208 --> 01:42:10,750
like I really need people to understand

1157
01:42:10,750 --> 01:42:14,208
what the selfish is and and then when I

1158
01:42:14,208 --> 01:42:16,166
ran the first field trip for sharks and

1159
01:42:16,166 --> 01:42:18,791
raise Australia which was complete chaos.

1160
01:42:20,375 --> 01:42:22,750
Yeah I like I brought some friends and I

1161
01:42:22,750 --> 01:42:24,208
remember we were launching the boat in

1162
01:42:24,208 --> 01:42:26,166
the Norman river and there's massive

1163
01:42:26,166 --> 01:42:27,791
crocodiles and we put all our field work

1164
01:42:27,791 --> 01:42:29,833
here and then we're basically sitting on

1165
01:42:29,833 --> 01:42:31,500
top of all these gillnets and drum lines

1166
01:42:31,500 --> 01:42:32,541
we were like how are we

1167
01:42:32,541 --> 01:42:33,666
going to make this work.

1168
01:42:48,083 --> 01:42:49,541
I never had to deal with jellyfish and

1169
01:42:49,541 --> 01:42:52,166
gillnets before so yeah we tried our best

1170
01:42:52,166 --> 01:42:54,666
but I actually got a jellyfish tentacle

1171
01:42:54,666 --> 01:42:57,208
into my eye which is extremely painful.

1172
01:42:58,416 --> 01:43:00,750
So I was basically like I am done here

1173
01:43:00,750 --> 01:43:03,333
right. I can't yeah this is too much.

1174
01:43:03,333 --> 01:43:04,833
This has been so much. It's been so

1175
01:43:04,833 --> 01:43:06,250
hectic you know with crocodiles and

1176
01:43:06,250 --> 01:43:08,416
things and then one of the guys on board

1177
01:43:08,416 --> 01:43:11,166
looks at me and goes you know you know

1178
01:43:11,166 --> 01:43:11,833
that we're going to have

1179
01:43:11,833 --> 01:43:13,083
a selfish in the net now.

1180
01:43:13,125 --> 01:43:15,708
I don't care I just want to go home this

1181
01:43:15,708 --> 01:43:18,458
is blah blah blah and there was a little

1182
01:43:18,458 --> 01:43:19,875
freshwater sawfish right.

1183
01:43:21,833 --> 01:43:23,416
Today the only one that we call them the

1184
01:43:23,416 --> 01:43:26,791
Norman river and you look at the pictures

1185
01:43:26,791 --> 01:43:28,583
and you know the story there it's like I

1186
01:43:28,583 --> 01:43:30,333
don't look as happy as I should be.

1187
01:43:32,083 --> 01:43:34,333
It was a tough day. It was a

1188
01:43:34,333 --> 01:43:36,375
tough day. It was a tough day.

1189
01:43:37,083 --> 01:43:39,208
But then also we went back to the

1190
01:43:39,208 --> 01:43:41,958
campground and you know people see a boat

1191
01:43:41,958 --> 01:43:43,625
and the boat says research on the side

1192
01:43:43,625 --> 01:43:45,166
and so everybody's really excited and

1193
01:43:45,166 --> 01:43:46,625
goes what do you guys do.

1194
01:43:46,625 --> 01:43:48,291
And so I started talking about sawfish

1195
01:43:48,291 --> 01:43:50,708
and one of the recreational fisherman who

1196
01:43:50,708 --> 01:43:52,750
was who was camped there as well. He

1197
01:43:52,750 --> 01:43:55,416
showed me a video and it was a video of a

1198
01:43:55,416 --> 01:43:57,500
soulless sawfish that he had caught a few

1199
01:43:57,500 --> 01:44:00,041
days before and the animal was alive.

1200
01:44:00,083 --> 01:44:04,125
So somebody imputed the saw and he gave

1201
01:44:04,125 --> 01:44:06,583
me that video right and so for me that

1202
01:44:06,583 --> 01:44:08,416
was the birth of the idea of the citizen

1203
01:44:08,416 --> 01:44:10,458
science campaign because it showed me

1204
01:44:10,458 --> 01:44:13,750
that we need to inform people that it's

1205
01:44:13,750 --> 01:44:15,208
not okay to cut the saw off.

1206
01:44:15,500 --> 01:44:16,250
We need to have that

1207
01:44:16,250 --> 01:44:18,041
information flow into the community.

1208
01:44:18,125 --> 01:44:20,500
But at the same time people are

1209
01:44:20,500 --> 01:44:23,708
interacting with these animals and that's

1210
01:44:23,708 --> 01:44:25,541
really valuable information for us

1211
01:44:25,541 --> 01:44:27,208
because you know it tells us where the

1212
01:44:27,208 --> 01:44:29,208
animals are found within those systems it

1213
01:44:29,208 --> 01:44:30,208
can show us hotspots

1214
01:44:30,208 --> 01:44:31,291
and things like that.

1215
01:44:32,083 --> 01:44:34,625
And that's how all this started and then

1216
01:44:34,625 --> 01:44:36,125
at some point as part of the citizen

1217
01:44:36,125 --> 01:44:37,083
science campaign we

1218
01:44:37,083 --> 01:44:38,083
started receiving saws.

1219
01:44:39,083 --> 01:44:43,500
And so I mean we now have I think 700

1220
01:44:43,500 --> 01:44:46,416
sawfish saws. Wow. There's there's a big

1221
01:44:46,416 --> 01:44:49,250
one behind me. Yeah. Yeah.

1222
01:44:50,083 --> 01:44:51,791
We've published a paper on that as well

1223
01:44:51,791 --> 01:44:54,458
on the saws and yeah it was like this

1224
01:44:54,458 --> 01:44:56,333
idea of like yeah you go into a pub in

1225
01:44:56,333 --> 01:44:57,958
far north Queensland and there is there

1226
01:44:57,958 --> 01:45:00,083
is saws over the bar there.

1227
01:45:00,375 --> 01:45:02,291
They're a thing. They're part of the

1228
01:45:02,291 --> 01:45:05,416
local culture. Right. And so I was like

1229
01:45:05,416 --> 01:45:07,250
well if we can get the people at the pub

1230
01:45:07,250 --> 01:45:10,291
to talk about sawfish then I think we

1231
01:45:10,291 --> 01:45:11,416
have a chance to win this

1232
01:45:11,416 --> 01:45:13,541
conservation battle. Right.

1233
01:45:14,666 --> 01:45:17,000
So let me get this straight now. So like

1234
01:45:17,000 --> 01:45:20,166
your career initially began in a bar and

1235
01:45:20,166 --> 01:45:23,083
now you go around to bars talking to

1236
01:45:23,083 --> 01:45:24,833
people about the sawfish

1237
01:45:24,833 --> 01:45:27,083
over the bar. What a great job.

1238
01:45:28,083 --> 01:45:30,250
I'd like to sign up for that. You figure

1239
01:45:30,250 --> 01:45:32,125
it out. I don't drink much anymore but

1240
01:45:32,125 --> 01:45:36,708
no. Australia bars are important. But you

1241
01:45:36,708 --> 01:45:38,000
figured it out. You've gotten

1242
01:45:38,000 --> 01:45:39,625
the best of both worlds right.

1243
01:45:41,375 --> 01:45:44,250
I was going to have to go one or two ways

1244
01:45:44,250 --> 01:45:45,791
either you have to stop drinking or it

1245
01:45:45,791 --> 01:45:49,375
could go really horribly badly. We have

1246
01:45:49,375 --> 01:45:51,041
an expression in Australia that

1247
01:45:51,041 --> 01:45:52,500
politicians use which

1248
01:45:52,500 --> 01:45:54,083
is to pass the pop test.

1249
01:45:54,083 --> 01:45:57,625
OK. Yeah. I know we haven't heard but I

1250
01:45:57,625 --> 01:45:59,875
get it. Yeah. Yeah. You got to win them

1251
01:45:59,875 --> 01:46:01,541
over at the pub. Right. Yeah. If your

1252
01:46:01,541 --> 01:46:02,833
politics if your politics

1253
01:46:02,833 --> 01:46:04,333
are good you pass the pub test.

1254
01:46:05,125 --> 01:46:08,583
I like it. I like it. I say what is this.

1255
01:46:08,583 --> 01:46:10,375
Tell you been a cop. Go ahead. Go ahead.

1256
01:46:10,750 --> 01:46:11,708
Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.

1257
01:46:12,541 --> 01:46:14,250
I was going to say it's like in college

1258
01:46:14,250 --> 01:46:16,041
or whatever you have the pub crawls

1259
01:46:16,041 --> 01:46:18,166
you're doing your sawfish crawl or your

1260
01:46:18,166 --> 01:46:19,416
selfish swim from one

1261
01:46:19,416 --> 01:46:21,083
pub to the next. Love it.

1262
01:46:22,083 --> 01:46:24,666
Yes. I mean actually we do that in some

1263
01:46:24,666 --> 01:46:27,833
way like my PhD student Nikki. So she

1264
01:46:27,833 --> 01:46:31,166
designed all these display cases and each

1265
01:46:31,166 --> 01:46:33,625
one of those display cases it features

1266
01:46:33,625 --> 01:46:36,750
selfish sauce. If a pub already has sauce

1267
01:46:36,750 --> 01:46:39,458
then you know they get like a board of

1268
01:46:39,458 --> 01:46:42,708
information around selfish and some of

1269
01:46:42,708 --> 01:46:44,291
the information is then specific to the

1270
01:46:44,291 --> 01:46:45,083
sauce that they have.

1271
01:46:46,083 --> 01:46:48,291
And so she created every single one of

1272
01:46:48,291 --> 01:46:50,083
those cases individually and they're

1273
01:46:50,083 --> 01:46:52,250
different. And you know if we have local

1274
01:46:52,250 --> 01:46:54,500
historic images of a selfish from that

1275
01:46:54,500 --> 01:46:56,375
area we'll put that image in there.

1276
01:46:57,041 --> 01:46:59,375
If the local traditional owners gave us

1277
01:46:59,375 --> 01:47:02,916
the language word for selfish for that

1278
01:47:02,916 --> 01:47:05,458
area then that's in there. And so people

1279
01:47:05,458 --> 01:47:07,833
could do a pub crawl in far north Queens

1280
01:47:07,833 --> 01:47:10,416
find all the display cases like I would

1281
01:47:10,416 --> 01:47:11,083
definitely encourage that.

1282
01:47:12,083 --> 01:47:16,041
That'd be amazing. That is so cool. You

1283
01:47:16,041 --> 01:47:17,208
know what you do. This would be a good

1284
01:47:17,208 --> 01:47:19,041
idea for a sponsorship. You get all the

1285
01:47:19,041 --> 01:47:21,166
all the pubs that have the sawfish there

1286
01:47:21,166 --> 01:47:23,083
with your information and you

1287
01:47:23,083 --> 01:47:25,333
set up like a pub crawl thing.

1288
01:47:26,291 --> 01:47:28,125
And so that everyone you can send to

1289
01:47:28,125 --> 01:47:30,875
these different pubs the public donate so

1290
01:47:30,875 --> 01:47:33,250
much to your selfish research. You'll

1291
01:47:33,250 --> 01:47:34,583
bring them business and you can get some

1292
01:47:34,583 --> 01:47:35,958
fun about it. That'd be

1293
01:47:35,958 --> 01:47:36,875
great. I think that's right.

1294
01:47:38,083 --> 01:47:40,708
Yeah. I think this is a great idea. And I

1295
01:47:40,708 --> 01:47:44,750
think we. Yeah. We we just because so

1296
01:47:44,750 --> 01:47:47,833
selfish sauce are an illegal item right.

1297
01:47:48,041 --> 01:47:49,500
So people aren't allowed to be in

1298
01:47:49,500 --> 01:47:50,083
possession of those souls.

1299
01:47:50,125 --> 01:47:53,583
And so the source that we have all have a

1300
01:47:53,583 --> 01:47:56,000
tag on them and every single tag is

1301
01:47:56,000 --> 01:47:58,583
listed on their permit. And so the

1302
01:47:58,583 --> 01:48:00,375
locations that have these display cases

1303
01:48:00,375 --> 01:48:02,666
now they have to annual annually report

1304
01:48:02,666 --> 01:48:04,375
back to us whether they still have the

1305
01:48:04,375 --> 01:48:06,083
case or the source in good condition and

1306
01:48:06,083 --> 01:48:06,958
how many people have

1307
01:48:06,958 --> 01:48:08,083
gone through the venue.

1308
01:48:08,083 --> 01:48:11,666
And so they've just reported back to us

1309
01:48:11,666 --> 01:48:13,875
and I've realized like it's it's such a

1310
01:48:13,875 --> 01:48:16,000
good project right there's so many people

1311
01:48:16,000 --> 01:48:18,083
who who get exposed to these

1312
01:48:18,083 --> 01:48:19,625
souls and the display cases.

1313
01:48:20,083 --> 01:48:21,625
There's so many people who have heard of

1314
01:48:21,625 --> 01:48:23,250
sharks and raises trigger because of that

1315
01:48:23,250 --> 01:48:25,125
and who then report citizen science

1316
01:48:25,125 --> 01:48:28,500
sightings back to us. But also those

1317
01:48:28,500 --> 01:48:30,916
locations there these guys they love it.

1318
01:48:30,916 --> 01:48:31,083
They're really proud of it.

1319
01:48:31,125 --> 01:48:35,208
And they they're also a network now of

1320
01:48:35,208 --> 01:48:37,083
people who report sightings back to us.

1321
01:48:37,083 --> 01:48:39,208
So it's it's it's a it's an absolute win

1322
01:48:39,208 --> 01:48:41,833
win. And so we were thinking we wanted to

1323
01:48:41,833 --> 01:48:43,958
do something where we can you know

1324
01:48:43,958 --> 01:48:46,166
showcase those locations on our social

1325
01:48:46,166 --> 01:48:47,083
media because it's really cool.

1326
01:48:47,083 --> 01:48:51,750
And they're really iconic roadhouses and

1327
01:48:51,750 --> 01:48:53,750
you know, yeah, they're institutions on

1328
01:48:53,750 --> 01:48:56,666
the Cape. So yeah, we should we should

1329
01:48:56,666 --> 01:48:59,708
add some kind of a trip to it where

1330
01:48:59,708 --> 01:49:01,041
people can win a t shirt or something

1331
01:49:01,041 --> 01:49:02,000
better at the end of it.

1332
01:49:02,000 --> 01:49:03,500
Well, they pay for the pub crawl and that

1333
01:49:03,500 --> 01:49:05,833
can go towards funding towards towards.

1334
01:49:05,833 --> 01:49:08,416
Yeah, that'd be great. People, people

1335
01:49:08,416 --> 01:49:09,083
really annual tickets.

1336
01:49:09,083 --> 01:49:12,833
They could sign up for it like you rent a

1337
01:49:12,833 --> 01:49:14,666
van or something and they sign up for it

1338
01:49:14,666 --> 01:49:16,708
and they pay a fee and you have somebody

1339
01:49:16,708 --> 01:49:18,666
drives them around to the whole pub all

1340
01:49:18,666 --> 01:49:20,458
night and every time they go there to get

1341
01:49:20,458 --> 01:49:23,000
a card ticked off and the and you work

1342
01:49:23,000 --> 01:49:23,833
out something the

1343
01:49:23,833 --> 01:49:25,875
establishment maybe makes a donation.

1344
01:49:26,083 --> 01:49:27,291
And of course they get the business from

1345
01:49:27,291 --> 01:49:29,458
the people there and at the end of the

1346
01:49:29,458 --> 01:49:30,750
night they can stop off at you know

1347
01:49:30,750 --> 01:49:32,083
alcoholics and I'm just a detox.

1348
01:49:33,083 --> 01:49:38,208
That's gonna be my next holiday. Yeah.

1349
01:49:38,291 --> 01:49:41,375
But how long is this

1350
01:49:41,375 --> 01:49:43,541
project been going on?

1351
01:49:45,083 --> 01:49:48,750
So well, 2015 was for me where I've had

1352
01:49:48,750 --> 01:49:50,333
had this idea where I got that first

1353
01:49:50,333 --> 01:49:54,125
video and 2016 2017 somewhere along that

1354
01:49:54,125 --> 01:49:55,333
way is when we build

1355
01:49:55,333 --> 01:49:56,083
almost 10 years page. Yeah.

1356
01:49:57,083 --> 01:50:01,291
And then 2019 we did a press release

1357
01:50:01,291 --> 01:50:03,000
around it and that press release went

1358
01:50:03,000 --> 01:50:06,583
absolutely nationwide. So that was really

1359
01:50:06,583 --> 01:50:08,458
cool. And that's that really, really

1360
01:50:08,458 --> 01:50:10,666
kicked it off. And since then it's it's

1361
01:50:10,666 --> 01:50:12,958
been running like we can see in the data

1362
01:50:12,958 --> 01:50:15,708
that there is peaks in submissions

1363
01:50:15,708 --> 01:50:17,083
whenever one of us goes into the media.

1364
01:50:18,083 --> 01:50:22,875
But it's people now know to report their

1365
01:50:22,875 --> 01:50:25,208
selfish sightings and yeah, it's so you

1366
01:50:25,208 --> 01:50:27,791
so the program worked as in you've seen

1367
01:50:27,791 --> 01:50:30,916
increase in selfish sightings as well as

1368
01:50:30,916 --> 01:50:33,083
turning in some of the some of the sauce.

1369
01:50:34,083 --> 01:50:37,416
Yeah. And and so it gives us a really

1370
01:50:37,416 --> 01:50:40,250
good idea now of hot spots around the

1371
01:50:40,250 --> 01:50:43,083
country actually. Yeah. And so this is

1372
01:50:43,083 --> 01:50:44,666
something that we now want to find you in

1373
01:50:44,666 --> 01:50:46,583
a little bit more because you know, does

1374
01:50:46,583 --> 01:50:48,916
a selfish hot spot tell us that there's a

1375
01:50:48,916 --> 01:50:50,125
lot of selfish or there's a

1376
01:50:50,125 --> 01:50:51,375
lot of people out there fishing.

1377
01:50:52,083 --> 01:50:53,708
Right. And accidentally catching them. So

1378
01:50:53,708 --> 01:50:56,291
we're really trying to get get a hand on

1379
01:50:56,291 --> 01:50:58,833
on that like a yeah. Grasping towards

1380
01:50:58,833 --> 01:51:01,083
more questions. I like that. Yeah. Yeah.

1381
01:51:01,375 --> 01:51:02,083
Yeah. So so I think our project are always a little bit more.

1382
01:51:03,125 --> 01:51:04,000
I think our project is always they're

1383
01:51:04,000 --> 01:51:07,500
always evolving with conservation and

1384
01:51:07,500 --> 01:51:10,000
outreach and selfish biology in mind,

1385
01:51:10,291 --> 01:51:11,750
which is yeah, it's also a really fun

1386
01:51:11,750 --> 01:51:13,750
space to work in. It's pretty cool now.

1387
01:51:13,750 --> 01:51:15,875
This is all part of and we haven't really

1388
01:51:15,875 --> 01:51:17,375
mentioned it here, but it's sharks and

1389
01:51:17,375 --> 01:51:19,125
rays Australia. So Sarah, this is your

1390
01:51:19,125 --> 01:51:21,250
the organization that you that you help

1391
01:51:21,250 --> 01:51:23,666
form. Can you tell us you know why this

1392
01:51:23,666 --> 01:51:25,916
started and then and then just tell us

1393
01:51:25,916 --> 01:51:27,541
like so that evolution of that.

1394
01:51:30,083 --> 01:51:30,833
Yeah, I think it's a huge personal

1395
01:51:30,833 --> 01:51:33,083
component to it. So I was living in cans.

1396
01:51:33,083 --> 01:51:36,708
I finished my PhD. My PhD supervisor Sean

1397
01:51:36,708 --> 01:51:40,083
Collin. He moved to UWA. So he was in

1398
01:51:40,083 --> 01:51:42,916
Perth and I was really like I wanted to I

1399
01:51:42,916 --> 01:51:45,041
wanted to stay in cans. I would have

1400
01:51:45,041 --> 01:51:46,500
loved to keep working with him, but I

1401
01:51:46,500 --> 01:51:49,125
really wanted to stay in cans and there's

1402
01:51:49,125 --> 01:51:51,000
a small branch of James Cook University

1403
01:51:51,000 --> 01:51:53,708
up here, which is getting bigger. But

1404
01:51:53,708 --> 01:51:54,333
most of the marine

1405
01:51:54,333 --> 01:51:55,500
stuff is down in Townsville.

1406
01:51:56,166 --> 01:51:58,291
And for me was always like, I don't want

1407
01:51:58,291 --> 01:52:00,333
to leave Kansas Kansas Kansas is

1408
01:52:00,333 --> 01:52:02,250
spectacular place like a friend of mine

1409
01:52:02,250 --> 01:52:03,958
wants it to me. You know, we've got 300

1410
01:52:03,958 --> 01:52:07,541
waterfalls within a day trip distance. So

1411
01:52:07,541 --> 01:52:09,125
it's it's really fun here. It's really

1412
01:52:09,125 --> 01:52:12,166
beautiful. And so there was this

1413
01:52:12,166 --> 01:52:13,625
component where I was like, well, if I

1414
01:52:13,625 --> 01:52:15,000
have to leave cans, I think I have to

1415
01:52:15,000 --> 01:52:17,333
give it a really good try and really try

1416
01:52:17,333 --> 01:52:19,708
to stay here first. And the second thing

1417
01:52:19,708 --> 01:52:21,750
was that I had realized

1418
01:52:21,750 --> 01:52:23,500
that yeah, we saw fish.

1419
01:52:24,125 --> 01:52:25,375
I wanted to keep working with these

1420
01:52:25,375 --> 01:52:27,250
animals. I find them still fascinating.

1421
01:52:28,500 --> 01:52:30,958
And that there is this this community

1422
01:52:30,958 --> 01:52:34,750
part of of the work that is really

1423
01:52:34,750 --> 01:52:36,750
required like school visits and community

1424
01:52:36,750 --> 01:52:38,500
engagement and working with traditional

1425
01:52:38,500 --> 01:52:40,750
owners working with Landon C Rangers and

1426
01:52:40,750 --> 01:52:42,541
stuff like that. And so I really wanted

1427
01:52:42,541 --> 01:52:46,458
to do that. And so I yeah, I wanted to go

1428
01:52:46,458 --> 01:52:47,958
independent and I wanted to see if it

1429
01:52:47,958 --> 01:52:50,500
works. And so I spent

1430
01:52:53,000 --> 01:52:55,000
part of a year traveling around looking

1431
01:52:55,000 --> 01:52:57,083
visiting different places going white

1432
01:52:57,083 --> 01:52:59,000
shirt diving in South Africa and and

1433
01:52:59,000 --> 01:53:03,166
Guadalupe and visiting the program of the

1434
01:53:03,166 --> 01:53:05,375
University of Miami on how to how they

1435
01:53:05,375 --> 01:53:07,250
take high school students short tagging

1436
01:53:07,250 --> 01:53:09,958
and stuff like that. And I really wanted

1437
01:53:09,958 --> 01:53:12,750
to see how what these programs do and how

1438
01:53:12,750 --> 01:53:15,416
they work and what I like about them,

1439
01:53:15,416 --> 01:53:17,375
what I don't like about them, and then

1440
01:53:17,375 --> 01:53:18,625
trying to figure out if we could do

1441
01:53:18,625 --> 01:53:19,291
something like that.

1442
01:53:20,583 --> 01:53:22,416
And so I did that and then yeah, found it

1443
01:53:22,416 --> 01:53:24,791
sharks and raise Australia and ran into

1444
01:53:24,791 --> 01:53:28,791
heaps of trouble along the way. It took

1445
01:53:28,791 --> 01:53:30,458
us nine months to get a little vessel

1446
01:53:30,458 --> 01:53:31,625
into registration like

1447
01:53:31,625 --> 01:53:33,625
just give you one, one thing.

1448
01:53:34,083 --> 01:53:35,375
Yeah, there's a lot of things where it's

1449
01:53:35,375 --> 01:53:37,625
like, nobody's ever done this before. Um,

1450
01:53:37,625 --> 01:53:38,750
you know, my insurance broker

1451
01:53:38,750 --> 01:53:41,666
immediately. I needed to get insurance

1452
01:53:41,666 --> 01:53:43,125
and he was like, you want to work with

1453
01:53:43,125 --> 01:53:45,375
sharks and what stingrays like the

1454
01:53:45,375 --> 01:53:47,083
animals that killed Steve urban.

1455
01:53:47,125 --> 01:53:50,708
Right? Yeah. So, yeah. So okay, okay. We

1456
01:53:50,708 --> 01:53:52,541
need more from the rich about stingrays.

1457
01:53:52,958 --> 01:53:59,500
So yeah, and then I had to learn a lot

1458
01:53:59,500 --> 01:54:02,083
had run these field trips in remote

1459
01:54:02,083 --> 01:54:05,416
areas, how to set up these collaborations

1460
01:54:05,416 --> 01:54:07,583
had to keep these collaborations going.

1461
01:54:08,541 --> 01:54:13,875
And yeah, so for me, it was a huge, huge

1462
01:54:13,875 --> 01:54:16,083
personal path as well. And I think now we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're going.

1463
01:54:16,083 --> 01:54:17,750
And I think now we're, we're a non for

1464
01:54:17,750 --> 01:54:20,291
profit. So I started initially as a, as a

1465
01:54:20,291 --> 01:54:22,625
company because non for profits have

1466
01:54:22,625 --> 01:54:25,500
large requirements in Australia. You need

1467
01:54:25,500 --> 01:54:29,333
a minimum of three directors you need for

1468
01:54:29,333 --> 01:54:30,250
a research organization.

1469
01:54:30,250 --> 01:54:31,541
You need a research board.

1470
01:54:32,375 --> 01:54:35,416
You have these structures in place that

1471
01:54:35,416 --> 01:54:37,375
that are just, they're not easy to set up

1472
01:54:37,375 --> 01:54:39,958
and I wanted to have the right people in

1473
01:54:39,958 --> 01:54:43,291
there. Right. So now, I think in 2021, we

1474
01:54:43,291 --> 01:54:44,291
found that the non

1475
01:54:44,291 --> 01:54:45,041
for profit organization.

1476
01:54:45,125 --> 01:54:47,541
And since then, it's just been going like

1477
01:54:47,541 --> 01:54:49,583
before it's been going fantastic. But now

1478
01:54:49,583 --> 01:54:51,583
it's, I think it's going really well. So

1479
01:54:51,583 --> 01:54:56,666
yeah, you so what, so is that what this

1480
01:54:56,666 --> 01:55:01,250
LTD was when you got that or

1481
01:55:02,083 --> 01:55:05,416
So, yeah, so the sharks and raise

1482
01:55:05,416 --> 01:55:07,458
Australia is a company, but then the

1483
01:55:07,458 --> 01:55:09,250
sharks and raise Australia research is

1484
01:55:09,250 --> 01:55:12,416
the non for profit. They work together.

1485
01:55:12,750 --> 01:55:15,125
They work together the organizations, but

1486
01:55:15,125 --> 01:55:17,750
yeah, having having the non

1487
01:55:17,750 --> 01:55:20,583
for profit growing that. Yeah.

1488
01:55:22,500 --> 01:55:23,833
So we got a, okay.

1489
01:55:23,833 --> 01:55:23,958
Okay.

1490
01:55:24,083 --> 01:55:33,833
So we've got a board of directors now has

1491
01:55:33,833 --> 01:55:36,125
quite a diverse group of people in there.

1492
01:55:36,541 --> 01:55:39,125
And their research board has most selfish

1493
01:55:39,125 --> 01:55:41,208
researchers in Australia, and some

1494
01:55:41,208 --> 01:55:43,500
international as well like Nicole

1495
01:55:43,500 --> 01:55:44,750
Phillips and Pete kind

1496
01:55:44,750 --> 01:55:45,583
is now international.

1497
01:55:45,958 --> 01:55:46,750
Nice.

1498
01:55:46,750 --> 01:55:48,958
So it's a really good team and yeah.

1499
01:55:51,083 --> 01:55:53,000
So like when you starting it as a

1500
01:55:53,000 --> 01:55:55,458
company, you know, and then you move

1501
01:55:55,458 --> 01:55:57,000
towards and then eventually moving

1502
01:55:57,000 --> 01:56:00,125
towards a nonprofit. Both are very

1503
01:56:00,125 --> 01:56:02,083
different in the way you manage with

1504
01:56:02,083 --> 01:56:03,500
those. And you're

1505
01:56:03,500 --> 01:56:04,500
starting this independently.

1506
01:56:05,458 --> 01:56:07,541
It's very difficult to be able to

1507
01:56:07,541 --> 01:56:09,750
survive, you know, without without income

1508
01:56:09,750 --> 01:56:11,166
to be able to do that a lot of times when

1509
01:56:11,166 --> 01:56:13,083
you're associated with university, you

1510
01:56:13,083 --> 01:56:14,375
know, you get funding from the university

1511
01:56:14,375 --> 01:56:15,541
or grants and so forth.

1512
01:56:16,625 --> 01:56:18,708
Can we talk a little bit about like how

1513
01:56:18,708 --> 01:56:21,458
the challenges of starting, you know,

1514
01:56:21,458 --> 01:56:23,333
your own independent company and then

1515
01:56:23,333 --> 01:56:26,458
moving even moving it to a nonprofit and

1516
01:56:26,458 --> 01:56:28,916
where the like where your funding came

1517
01:56:28,916 --> 01:56:30,375
from and your ability to

1518
01:56:30,375 --> 01:56:31,916
pay your bills and stuff.

1519
01:56:33,708 --> 01:56:35,500
So this is a big shout out to the Save

1520
01:56:35,500 --> 01:56:39,791
Our Seas Foundation because they gave me

1521
01:56:39,791 --> 01:56:41,666
we had, I had a small grant and a

1522
01:56:41,666 --> 01:56:42,666
keystone grant when I

1523
01:56:42,666 --> 01:56:44,083
started sharks and raise Australia.

1524
01:56:44,125 --> 01:56:46,458
And you know, things like as I said, the

1525
01:56:46,458 --> 01:56:47,958
boat took nine months to get into

1526
01:56:47,958 --> 01:56:50,000
registration. And so this this grant was

1527
01:56:50,000 --> 01:56:51,375
just delayed and delayed and

1528
01:56:51,375 --> 01:56:52,583
delayed and they stuck with me.

1529
01:56:52,791 --> 01:56:54,666
And I'm really thankful for that because

1530
01:56:54,666 --> 01:56:56,583
that, you know, having having them going,

1531
01:56:56,583 --> 01:56:57,166
yeah, I think you can

1532
01:56:57,166 --> 01:56:58,625
do it. Just make a lot.

1533
01:57:00,791 --> 01:57:03,000
But so when I started sharks and raise

1534
01:57:03,000 --> 01:57:06,333
Australia, I realized in those remote

1535
01:57:06,333 --> 01:57:10,041
areas, like, and doing that research, we

1536
01:57:10,041 --> 01:57:11,916
need two things like we need more, but

1537
01:57:11,916 --> 01:57:13,458
these are the two main things we need.

1538
01:57:13,750 --> 01:57:16,750
We need money to fund the research. And

1539
01:57:16,750 --> 01:57:19,708
we also need people power. We need people

1540
01:57:19,708 --> 01:57:21,916
who can help with the research. And I

1541
01:57:21,916 --> 01:57:23,625
think that's where that Bimini model

1542
01:57:23,625 --> 01:57:25,916
comes in where, you know, students come

1543
01:57:25,916 --> 01:57:27,208
out and they learn how

1544
01:57:27,208 --> 01:57:28,083
to do this, this work.

1545
01:57:28,083 --> 01:57:30,625
So they benefit in that regards. But at

1546
01:57:30,625 --> 01:57:31,958
the same time, they're the ones who are

1547
01:57:31,958 --> 01:57:33,875
keeping these research projects alive and

1548
01:57:33,875 --> 01:57:37,791
keep them alive over a long time, which

1549
01:57:37,791 --> 01:57:40,958
then also allows you to function, maybe

1550
01:57:40,958 --> 01:57:43,166
outside of academic funding cycles.

1551
01:57:43,833 --> 01:57:48,125
So you can do like, you know, our our

1552
01:57:48,125 --> 01:57:51,625
source paper is based on seven years of

1553
01:57:51,625 --> 01:57:53,583
donations of source.

1554
01:57:54,541 --> 01:57:56,500
The science paper that my student working

1555
01:57:56,500 --> 01:57:58,833
on this is based on 10 years of citizen

1556
01:57:58,833 --> 01:58:01,500
science. So it's these, these are really

1557
01:58:01,500 --> 01:58:03,833
important studies because they show a lot

1558
01:58:03,833 --> 01:58:05,333
of things over longer

1559
01:58:05,333 --> 01:58:06,625
time frames, I think.

1560
01:58:06,625 --> 01:58:10,125
Right. And that's also a freedom to be

1561
01:58:10,125 --> 01:58:12,583
able to do that. For sure. How much how

1562
01:58:12,583 --> 01:58:14,541
much of your time is dedicated towards

1563
01:58:14,541 --> 01:58:17,083
doing the actual research and working on

1564
01:58:17,083 --> 01:58:19,083
the actual projects and then also the

1565
01:58:19,083 --> 01:58:22,500
admin side of trying to apply for grants,

1566
01:58:22,500 --> 01:58:23,083
running the actual company,

1567
01:58:23,083 --> 01:58:27,333
like running the nonprofit. So I was

1568
01:58:27,333 --> 01:58:29,625
doing most of the admin myself within the

1569
01:58:29,625 --> 01:58:32,583
company, because it was, it was basically

1570
01:58:32,583 --> 01:58:36,333
me interns and students, right, or

1571
01:58:36,333 --> 01:58:37,375
interns and volunteers.

1572
01:58:38,500 --> 01:58:39,750
Yeah, Nikki came on board in.

1573
01:58:40,458 --> 01:58:42,583
She came on board in 2019 as an intern

1574
01:58:42,583 --> 01:58:47,708
and then became a student. Okay. And so

1575
01:58:47,708 --> 01:58:49,166
then she helped me with admin with

1576
01:58:49,166 --> 01:58:51,500
permits and things like that. But yeah,

1577
01:58:51,500 --> 01:58:52,083
running an organization does a lot more than that.

1578
01:58:52,125 --> 01:58:55,958
Right permits, but permits are huge.

1579
01:58:56,958 --> 01:58:58,541
Yeah, yeah, they take a long time to

1580
01:58:58,541 --> 01:59:02,416
write a lot of paperwork and yeah. So I

1581
01:59:02,416 --> 01:59:04,500
was doing the majority. I now have

1582
01:59:04,500 --> 01:59:06,250
somebody employed part time, who is

1583
01:59:06,250 --> 01:59:08,125
really good and helps me with the, with

1584
01:59:08,125 --> 01:59:10,000
the research admin side of it as well.

1585
01:59:10,916 --> 01:59:12,833
But for me, I always want to do more

1586
01:59:12,833 --> 01:59:14,875
research. Obviously, that's what I really

1587
01:59:14,875 --> 01:59:16,458
want to do. That's why you started it,

1588
01:59:16,458 --> 01:59:19,375
right? Yeah. But then now there is there

1589
01:59:19,375 --> 01:59:21,083
is that large people component, you know, working with those range of people.

1590
01:59:21,083 --> 01:59:22,500
And working with those range of groups,

1591
01:59:22,500 --> 01:59:24,291
setting up the field trips, getting

1592
01:59:24,291 --> 01:59:26,583
volunteers and interns on board screening

1593
01:59:26,583 --> 01:59:29,750
people, you know, who can join us in the

1594
01:59:29,750 --> 01:59:31,375
field stuff like that. Right.

1595
01:59:31,583 --> 01:59:33,583
So that's that's a big that takes time as

1596
01:59:33,583 --> 01:59:37,000
well. Yeah, it takes a Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

1597
01:59:37,000 --> 01:59:39,708
Yeah. Well, you know, bar bar, this has

1598
01:59:39,708 --> 01:59:42,375
been super fascinating. I guess, question

1599
01:59:42,375 --> 01:59:44,333
to kind of have to have you back pursue

1600
01:59:44,333 --> 01:59:46,541
this some more. But kind of what's your,

1601
01:59:47,125 --> 01:59:48,250
where do you kind of see your

1602
01:59:48,250 --> 01:59:49,833
organization going

1603
01:59:49,833 --> 01:59:50,083
over the next 10 years?

1604
01:59:50,125 --> 01:59:54,458
Over the next 10, 10, 20 years or so. 10,

1605
01:59:54,458 --> 01:59:55,875
20 years is a long time.

1606
02:00:02,083 --> 02:00:03,500
You're a kid. So like,

1607
02:00:05,750 --> 02:00:08,541
I was a kid when I watched MacGyver.

1608
02:00:09,375 --> 02:00:11,041
Yeah, exactly. Right.

1609
02:00:14,125 --> 02:00:17,666
I see it growing. And I think I think

1610
02:00:17,666 --> 02:00:19,916
we're we're taking a really good

1611
02:00:19,916 --> 02:00:22,333
direction. So I'm in really happy place

1612
02:00:22,333 --> 02:00:24,875
now with with my team with our directors

1613
02:00:24,875 --> 02:00:30,000
and everybody. And we're growing in a

1614
02:00:30,000 --> 02:00:31,958
direction that I hadn't really

1615
02:00:31,958 --> 02:00:33,083
anticipated as well. Right.

1616
02:00:34,083 --> 02:00:35,791
So for me, there is a lot of things that

1617
02:00:35,791 --> 02:00:40,333
just, you know, we were forming a path

1618
02:00:40,333 --> 02:00:42,458
and and we have this freedom to go along

1619
02:00:42,458 --> 02:00:43,833
that path, which I think is really

1620
02:00:43,833 --> 02:00:47,666
beautiful. So, you know, yeah, realizing

1621
02:00:47,666 --> 02:00:49,500
citizen science is really important for

1622
02:00:49,500 --> 02:00:50,458
these animals. So,

1623
02:00:50,458 --> 02:00:51,083
yeah, we got on that path.

1624
02:00:51,083 --> 02:00:53,833
And so one of the things that we're

1625
02:00:53,833 --> 02:00:56,541
trying to do now is we're trying to turn

1626
02:00:56,541 --> 02:01:00,583
our training for land and sea rangers for

1627
02:01:00,583 --> 02:01:02,708
Aboriginal people who are custodians of

1628
02:01:02,708 --> 02:01:04,916
the land in that they're connected to.

1629
02:01:05,583 --> 02:01:07,083
We're trying to turn our office training

1630
02:01:07,083 --> 02:01:10,000
into a nationally accredited course.

1631
02:01:10,250 --> 02:01:13,166
Oh, nice. I think is a really, really

1632
02:01:13,166 --> 02:01:14,833
cool thing. And there's so many things

1633
02:01:14,833 --> 02:01:18,083
that can come out of that. Yeah, we.

1634
02:01:18,083 --> 02:01:21,375
I think that's the biggest thing for me

1635
02:01:21,375 --> 02:01:23,000
at the moment. But then also growing all

1636
02:01:23,000 --> 02:01:26,000
the projects and and continuing them and

1637
02:01:26,000 --> 02:01:26,791
hopefully seeing more

1638
02:01:26,791 --> 02:01:29,416
selfish. Yeah, that'd be nice.

1639
02:01:30,000 --> 02:01:32,916
Yeah. What what? Yeah, one of the final

1640
02:01:32,916 --> 02:01:37,583
question here is that is that we're what

1641
02:01:37,583 --> 02:01:39,000
advice would you have for someone a young

1642
02:01:39,000 --> 02:01:40,791
person starting out a younger person,

1643
02:01:40,791 --> 02:01:41,083
let's say starting out.

1644
02:01:41,083 --> 02:01:46,208
So I often get asked this question by

1645
02:01:46,208 --> 02:01:48,083
students or interns who come through. And

1646
02:01:48,083 --> 02:01:50,708
the one thing that I always say to them

1647
02:01:50,708 --> 02:01:54,083
is think backwards. So try and figure out

1648
02:01:54,083 --> 02:01:55,041
what are the things that

1649
02:01:55,041 --> 02:01:56,250
you want to do later on.

1650
02:01:57,000 --> 02:01:59,000
So do you want to be in a lab? Do you

1651
02:01:59,000 --> 02:02:00,666
want to be? Do you want to work in an

1652
02:02:00,666 --> 02:02:02,791
extremely remote area or do you want to

1653
02:02:02,791 --> 02:02:04,916
do research that is close to your house?

1654
02:02:05,333 --> 02:02:07,833
Right. So what what what are the settings

1655
02:02:07,833 --> 02:02:09,083
of how you want to spend your life? Do you want to travel a lot? Because you're going to have to be in a lab.

1656
02:02:09,083 --> 02:02:17,041
So think about those settings and then

1657
02:02:17,041 --> 02:02:20,333
figure out how you get to that. And

1658
02:02:20,333 --> 02:02:22,916
because for me, my path wasn't direct. So

1659
02:02:22,916 --> 02:02:25,208
getting from sensory to run it, sensory

1660
02:02:25,208 --> 02:02:26,875
biology to running a non for profit

1661
02:02:26,875 --> 02:02:27,833
organization. That's

1662
02:02:27,833 --> 02:02:28,875
that's not a straight path.

1663
02:02:30,083 --> 02:02:33,708
And so I think there might be ways of

1664
02:02:33,708 --> 02:02:37,250
getting earlier on to where you want to

1665
02:02:37,250 --> 02:02:40,500
be and figuring that out faster, maybe or

1666
02:02:40,500 --> 02:02:42,875
having a straight line of where you want

1667
02:02:42,875 --> 02:02:44,166
to get to. And I think

1668
02:02:44,166 --> 02:02:46,041
that that that's my advice.

1669
02:02:47,125 --> 02:02:50,208
Love it. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Well,

1670
02:02:50,208 --> 02:02:51,541
we'll definitely have you back. If

1671
02:02:51,541 --> 02:02:52,625
nothing else, we're going to want to hear

1672
02:02:52,625 --> 02:02:53,916
how the pub crawl

1673
02:02:53,916 --> 02:02:56,625
fundraiser goes. You can tell us how.

1674
02:02:57,083 --> 02:02:58,875
I'll tag you guys and then we'll share

1675
02:02:58,875 --> 02:03:01,208
this one day. We'll just have to go down

1676
02:03:01,208 --> 02:03:03,416
to the absolutely and do a podcast from

1677
02:03:03,416 --> 02:03:05,000
the pub crawl. I think is what we'll have

1678
02:03:05,000 --> 02:03:06,291
to do. That's it. You'll have to find

1679
02:03:06,291 --> 02:03:07,833
every display case.

1680
02:03:07,833 --> 02:03:10,541
Yep. There you go. Perfect.

1681
02:03:11,083 --> 02:03:15,625
Oh, perfect. Just just perfect for us.

1682
02:03:15,625 --> 02:03:17,333
Andrew, I think we'll have to we'll have

1683
02:03:17,333 --> 02:03:19,166
to pencil that one in. We'll have to

1684
02:03:19,166 --> 02:03:20,666
we'll have to do that. Yeah. Anyway.

1685
02:03:21,416 --> 02:03:23,791
Anyway, Barbara, thank you very much.

1686
02:03:23,791 --> 02:03:26,250
This has been an outstanding talk,

1687
02:03:26,250 --> 02:03:28,458
discussion with you and hopefully the

1688
02:03:28,458 --> 02:03:30,333
beer pub and everything else will take

1689
02:03:30,333 --> 02:03:32,333
off and look forward to

1690
02:03:32,333 --> 02:03:34,083
having you back on again. Okay.

1691
02:03:35,083 --> 02:03:38,125
Thanks so much. Thank you, Barbara. It's

1692
02:03:38,125 --> 02:03:39,708
been a pleasure. Thank you, Barbara, for

1693
02:03:39,708 --> 02:03:42,083
joining us on today's episode of the

1694
02:03:42,083 --> 02:03:44,916
Beyond Jaws podcast. Dave, you know, it's

1695
02:03:44,916 --> 02:03:46,583
really interesting when you we hear from

1696
02:03:46,583 --> 02:03:48,458
someone who starts their own organization

1697
02:03:48,458 --> 02:03:50,791
from scratch and the

1698
02:03:50,791 --> 02:03:51,916
challenges that they face.

1699
02:03:52,125 --> 02:03:54,083
The reason why they're doing it, it's

1700
02:03:54,083 --> 02:03:55,291
always interesting because it's always

1701
02:03:55,291 --> 02:03:57,833
unique for every for everybody. What did

1702
02:03:57,833 --> 02:04:00,500
you think of Barbara's story in terms of

1703
02:04:00,500 --> 02:04:02,583
why she started it and then how she's

1704
02:04:02,583 --> 02:04:04,541
continuing to do it? Yeah, I think it was

1705
02:04:04,541 --> 02:04:06,833
fascinating. I think one thing is unlike

1706
02:04:06,833 --> 02:04:08,416
a lot of people like they've, you know,

1707
02:04:08,416 --> 02:04:09,625
when they're young people, they know

1708
02:04:09,625 --> 02:04:11,000
they're going to go do shark. She kind of

1709
02:04:11,000 --> 02:04:13,083
came to a little later in the game where

1710
02:04:13,083 --> 02:04:14,791
she really got into interest in marine

1711
02:04:14,791 --> 02:04:17,500
science and into sharks and coral reefs

1712
02:04:17,500 --> 02:04:18,291
initially and then got

1713
02:04:18,291 --> 02:04:19,083
into sharks and rays.

1714
02:04:19,083 --> 02:04:23,208
And so it was a fascinating story that

1715
02:04:23,208 --> 02:04:25,166
how she came up, got into a little later,

1716
02:04:25,166 --> 02:04:26,708
but she was very well traveled.

1717
02:04:27,208 --> 02:04:28,708
Fortunately, she had a lot of, you know,

1718
02:04:28,708 --> 02:04:30,250
had a lot of experience and she had to

1719
02:04:30,250 --> 02:04:31,916
had some experience being in Australia as

1720
02:04:31,916 --> 02:04:34,041
well as being at the Bimini Marine Lab

1721
02:04:34,041 --> 02:04:36,000
with Sonny Gruber and a few other places,

1722
02:04:36,500 --> 02:04:37,125
which I think probably

1723
02:04:37,125 --> 02:04:38,083
helped lay the groundwork for.

1724
02:04:38,083 --> 02:04:41,041
And then she's talked about, you know,

1725
02:04:41,541 --> 02:04:43,291
working in these remote areas and stuff.

1726
02:04:43,875 --> 02:04:45,375
Do you really have to have be be

1727
02:04:45,375 --> 02:04:49,083
MacGyver? And as we say, of course, the

1728
02:04:49,083 --> 02:04:51,000
three of us age ourselves quite a bit on

1729
02:04:51,000 --> 02:04:53,750
that one. The young people here go check

1730
02:04:53,750 --> 02:04:54,875
out the TV series

1731
02:04:54,875 --> 02:04:58,250
MacGyver from the 80s and 90s.

1732
02:04:58,250 --> 02:05:00,250
And but it was from a toothpick and gum

1733
02:05:00,250 --> 02:05:01,708
like he can make any he can make

1734
02:05:01,708 --> 02:05:05,166
anything. Yeah. And I, you know, like I

1735
02:05:05,166 --> 02:05:07,083
said, I kind of, I, it was kind of interesting. We talked about all the guys.

1736
02:05:07,125 --> 02:05:08,291
Interesting. We talked about all the gear

1737
02:05:08,291 --> 02:05:10,666
and stuff and that they have to get out

1738
02:05:10,666 --> 02:05:12,166
there and get it figured it's working and

1739
02:05:12,166 --> 02:05:14,041
talk about having like fixed cars in the

1740
02:05:14,041 --> 02:05:16,458
middle of nowhere and and yeah, those are

1741
02:05:16,458 --> 02:05:18,291
all people often ask me like what you

1742
02:05:18,291 --> 02:05:19,708
know, like what should they learn in

1743
02:05:19,708 --> 02:05:20,833
terms of like to get

1744
02:05:20,833 --> 02:05:21,833
ready for grad school?

1745
02:05:22,125 --> 02:05:24,250
And Barbara's case, you know, knowing how

1746
02:05:24,250 --> 02:05:26,416
to fix a wheel axle might be a good thing

1747
02:05:26,416 --> 02:05:28,708
or change a tire would be really helpful

1748
02:05:28,708 --> 02:05:32,541
for her and her field and her field work.

1749
02:05:33,375 --> 02:05:34,416
You know, so I think that, you know,

1750
02:05:34,416 --> 02:05:36,458
she's a real, you know, it's can do. You

1751
02:05:36,458 --> 02:05:37,833
have to be a real can do person like that

1752
02:05:37,833 --> 02:05:38,958
when you're out there because he's not

1753
02:05:38,958 --> 02:05:40,750
just doing the research, but you know, we

1754
02:05:40,750 --> 02:05:41,958
didn't really talk about how all the

1755
02:05:41,958 --> 02:05:44,375
fundraising she had to do.

1756
02:05:45,125 --> 02:05:46,833
She made our friends with the save our

1757
02:05:46,833 --> 02:05:48,833
seas foundation who are kind of

1758
02:05:48,833 --> 02:05:50,875
instrumental in the getting us going and

1759
02:05:50,875 --> 02:05:51,875
they've been very generous

1760
02:05:51,875 --> 02:05:53,166
in supporting my research.

1761
02:05:53,166 --> 02:05:54,166
You know, they have, they were really

1762
02:05:54,166 --> 02:05:55,791
there for a Barbara and I think you hear

1763
02:05:55,791 --> 02:05:58,208
that a lot just about all the how

1764
02:05:58,208 --> 02:06:00,041
important the save our seas foundation

1765
02:06:00,041 --> 02:06:03,208
has been for for a lot of us to really

1766
02:06:03,208 --> 02:06:05,000
kind of get our projects going.

1767
02:06:05,583 --> 02:06:08,125
And so it's shout out to them. Yeah,

1768
02:06:08,500 --> 02:06:10,000
absolutely. But yeah, but you know, you

1769
02:06:10,000 --> 02:06:11,833
got to be in their fundraise. You'll be a

1770
02:06:11,833 --> 02:06:13,500
fundraiser. You got to be a mechanic. You

1771
02:06:13,500 --> 02:06:14,083
got to be an administrator.

1772
02:06:14,125 --> 02:06:18,750
And then a field biologist and it's a

1773
02:06:18,750 --> 02:06:20,791
lot. It's a lot to do a lot of work. It's

1774
02:06:20,791 --> 02:06:23,666
a lot of work. Yep. Yep. Yeah, sure. What

1775
02:06:23,666 --> 02:06:25,500
I love to how she's doing, you know, we

1776
02:06:25,500 --> 02:06:29,000
hear a lot about organizations that take

1777
02:06:29,000 --> 02:06:30,791
on interns or that take on

1778
02:06:30,791 --> 02:06:32,083
volunteers to do the research.

1779
02:06:32,125 --> 02:06:35,875
There's a lot of bad connotations with

1780
02:06:35,875 --> 02:06:37,541
some of them, you know, some of these

1781
02:06:37,541 --> 02:06:41,750
organizations and you, we, we often

1782
02:06:41,750 --> 02:06:44,541
forget about the model that, that, that

1783
02:06:44,541 --> 02:06:45,541
she, that Barbara talked

1784
02:06:45,541 --> 02:06:47,333
about in terms of Bimini, right?

1785
02:06:47,333 --> 02:06:49,750
The model of how many shark scientists

1786
02:06:49,750 --> 02:06:52,833
came out of Bimini to be such great shark

1787
02:06:52,833 --> 02:06:54,250
scientists. A lot of them that we've

1788
02:06:54,250 --> 02:06:58,000
actually had on the show. And, and I

1789
02:06:58,000 --> 02:06:59,375
think she, she's doing the same. We told

1790
02:06:59,375 --> 02:07:01,083
this after we recorded, you know, I told her the same thing.

1791
02:07:01,083 --> 02:07:04,291
I said, you are essentially creating a

1792
02:07:04,291 --> 02:07:06,291
very similar path where people have the

1793
02:07:06,291 --> 02:07:08,791
chance to come to a remote area, you

1794
02:07:08,791 --> 02:07:11,750
know, learn those skillsets, but also be

1795
02:07:11,750 --> 02:07:13,958
around other shark scientists and learn

1796
02:07:13,958 --> 02:07:16,958
about sharks and rays in Australia, you

1797
02:07:16,958 --> 02:07:19,291
know, soft fish, you know, a number of

1798
02:07:19,291 --> 02:07:21,833
different rays and be able to study

1799
02:07:21,833 --> 02:07:23,625
things that people haven't studied and be

1800
02:07:23,625 --> 02:07:24,083
able to launch their career.

1801
02:07:24,083 --> 02:07:27,416
So there's a, there's also that aspect of

1802
02:07:27,416 --> 02:07:29,000
mentorship, right? And doing an

1803
02:07:29,000 --> 02:07:32,166
internship and learning all these things

1804
02:07:32,166 --> 02:07:35,041
and being able to come out of that with,

1805
02:07:35,041 --> 02:07:37,166
you know, opportunities, you know, not

1806
02:07:37,166 --> 02:07:38,708
only to work with somebody like Barbara

1807
02:07:38,708 --> 02:07:40,500
who has connections within the, within

1808
02:07:40,500 --> 02:07:42,625
the science field, but also to work

1809
02:07:42,625 --> 02:07:44,583
together and, you know, create their own

1810
02:07:44,583 --> 02:07:45,875
network and help each

1811
02:07:45,875 --> 02:07:46,083
other out as they go through.

1812
02:07:46,083 --> 02:07:49,833
So each cohort can go through and she may

1813
02:07:49,833 --> 02:07:51,291
not, I remember she's saying she didn't

1814
02:07:51,291 --> 02:07:53,458
have as many, you know, interns coming

1815
02:07:53,458 --> 02:07:56,041
through as, as Bimini did, but she has

1816
02:07:56,041 --> 02:07:58,333
quite a few and, and those cohorts can

1817
02:07:58,333 --> 02:08:00,500
even become closer and they can go out

1818
02:08:00,500 --> 02:08:01,583
and they can do some great things.

1819
02:08:01,583 --> 02:08:02,958
And I'm looking forward to hearing about

1820
02:08:02,958 --> 02:08:05,000
that over the next 10 years to say, oh

1821
02:08:05,000 --> 02:08:06,833
yeah, you came from Sarah, you know, in

1822
02:08:06,833 --> 02:08:09,125
Australia and worked under Barbara, just

1823
02:08:09,125 --> 02:08:10,500
like everybody's saying that they worked

1824
02:08:10,500 --> 02:08:11,708
under Sunny Gruber and they

1825
02:08:11,708 --> 02:08:12,083
offered in such a great thing.

1826
02:08:12,125 --> 02:08:16,000
And I think that, that tells a lot, you

1827
02:08:16,000 --> 02:08:17,666
know, about some of these organizations

1828
02:08:17,666 --> 02:08:19,208
that are doing this, that, you know, when

1829
02:08:19,208 --> 02:08:21,666
there's proper mentorship and internship

1830
02:08:21,666 --> 02:08:23,708
and volunteer ship done that you can

1831
02:08:23,708 --> 02:08:25,000
really create something special.

1832
02:08:25,500 --> 02:08:28,083
Yeah. Yeah. No, it was good. It was very,

1833
02:08:28,083 --> 02:08:30,083
it was very good. I also like the story

1834
02:08:30,083 --> 02:08:32,000
she shared about having met Eugenie Clark

1835
02:08:32,000 --> 02:08:33,291
when she was first starting out.

1836
02:08:33,291 --> 02:08:33,583
Oh yeah.

1837
02:08:34,083 --> 02:08:35,000
And she was at her first conference. That

1838
02:08:35,000 --> 02:08:36,958
was, I could totally relate to that.

1839
02:08:36,958 --> 02:08:37,750
Talk about mentorship.

1840
02:08:38,541 --> 02:08:40,291
Met her when I was a graduate student and

1841
02:08:40,291 --> 02:08:40,791
then having had

1842
02:08:40,791 --> 02:08:42,291
several of my grad students.

1843
02:08:42,750 --> 02:08:42,958
Yeah.

1844
02:08:43,083 --> 02:08:45,041
Meet her and similar circumstances where

1845
02:08:45,041 --> 02:08:46,458
they'd be presenting a poster or

1846
02:08:46,458 --> 02:08:48,375
something and Jeanne would come up and

1847
02:08:48,375 --> 02:08:49,750
start talking to him and they didn't, at

1848
02:08:49,750 --> 02:08:52,166
first didn't realize like who it was at

1849
02:08:52,166 --> 02:08:53,500
first, you know, and they realize, oh my

1850
02:08:53,500 --> 02:08:54,458
gosh, this is Jeanne Clark.

1851
02:08:55,125 --> 02:08:55,333
Yeah.

1852
02:08:55,333 --> 02:08:57,416
And, but it's just very unassuming and I

1853
02:08:57,416 --> 02:08:58,666
just really speaks a lot to

1854
02:08:58,666 --> 02:09:00,500
the kind of person she was.

1855
02:09:00,916 --> 02:09:01,083
Agreed.

1856
02:09:01,125 --> 02:09:04,333
And so those things matter. Those little,

1857
02:09:04,333 --> 02:09:06,875
those little interactions matter, right?

1858
02:09:06,875 --> 02:09:09,250
I think even people who are hearing this,

1859
02:09:09,250 --> 02:09:11,375
who are mid career, even late career,

1860
02:09:11,375 --> 02:09:13,666
shark scientists, the, the, the

1861
02:09:13,666 --> 02:09:15,458
interactions you have with, with young

1862
02:09:15,458 --> 02:09:18,416
scientists, with students matter and to,

1863
02:09:18,416 --> 02:09:21,291
to, you know, to just show interest and,

1864
02:09:21,625 --> 02:09:23,208
and show interest on the, on the studies

1865
02:09:23,208 --> 02:09:26,375
and to provide that support really helps,

1866
02:09:26,375 --> 02:09:28,666
you know, not only create a tighter

1867
02:09:28,666 --> 02:09:30,083
network of shark scientists,

1868
02:09:30,125 --> 02:09:34,125
but also a, just a way of support and

1869
02:09:34,125 --> 02:09:35,833
feeling accepted within the industry.

1870
02:09:35,833 --> 02:09:38,375
It's not, it's not an easy field to be in

1871
02:09:38,375 --> 02:09:40,250
and to be able to provide that support

1872
02:09:40,250 --> 02:09:42,041
just through little interactions like,

1873
02:09:42,291 --> 02:09:44,208
you know, being interested in a poster,

1874
02:09:44,583 --> 02:09:46,125
you know, and, and really congratulating

1875
02:09:46,125 --> 02:09:49,583
the, the student on that poster and the

1876
02:09:49,583 --> 02:09:50,958
research that they've done and accomplish

1877
02:09:50,958 --> 02:09:52,083
is, I think is a really great thing.

1878
02:09:52,083 --> 02:09:54,208
So, so yeah, there's lots of, lots of,

1879
02:09:54,208 --> 02:09:56,208
lots of goodies out of this interview.

1880
02:09:56,875 --> 02:09:57,791
And we really appreciate it. We're going

1881
02:09:57,791 --> 02:09:59,791
to put the links to the website for Sarah

1882
02:09:59,791 --> 02:10:03,250
as well as the social media sites and

1883
02:10:03,250 --> 02:10:04,291
you'll get that in the show notes.

1884
02:10:04,291 --> 02:10:06,416
And so you can, you can take a look at

1885
02:10:06,416 --> 02:10:07,541
there, but David, if people want to get

1886
02:10:07,541 --> 02:10:08,083
ahold of you, how would they do so?

1887
02:10:09,083 --> 02:10:12,625
It's on Instagram. It's a lost shark guy

1888
02:10:12,625 --> 02:10:15,916
and same on Facebook and X and LinkedIn.

1889
02:10:16,500 --> 02:10:18,875
And, but I also want to mention a new

1890
02:10:18,875 --> 02:10:21,541
YouTube channel, a lost shark guy with

1891
02:10:21,541 --> 02:10:24,000
our episodes. We just had our first

1892
02:10:24,000 --> 02:10:25,625
couple episodes come out searching for

1893
02:10:25,625 --> 02:10:27,916
lost sharks extinct or alive, which was

1894
02:10:27,916 --> 02:10:29,083
funded by the save our seeds foundation.

1895
02:10:30,083 --> 02:10:30,416
Yes.

1896
02:10:30,416 --> 02:10:31,875
Give a shout out and thank to them. So

1897
02:10:31,875 --> 02:10:34,125
please check that out and please consider

1898
02:10:34,125 --> 02:10:36,625
subscribing and also check out the beyond

1899
02:10:36,625 --> 02:10:39,000
jaws podcast, a YouTube channel as well.

1900
02:10:39,625 --> 02:10:41,250
So now you get your shark fix, get your

1901
02:10:41,250 --> 02:10:42,208
shark fix for the week.

1902
02:10:43,083 --> 02:10:45,250
Yeah. And just a, a, an aside to that, or

1903
02:10:45,250 --> 02:10:46,833
in addition to that, you mentioned save

1904
02:10:46,833 --> 02:10:49,375
our seeds. Barbara's organization started

1905
02:10:49,375 --> 02:10:51,291
off with save our seeds, you know, not

1906
02:10:51,291 --> 02:10:53,125
surprising, right? Save our seeds, looks

1907
02:10:53,125 --> 02:10:54,041
at this kind of stuff and

1908
02:10:54,041 --> 02:10:55,083
says, yeah, we think we can do it.

1909
02:10:55,125 --> 02:10:57,750
Even those delays and boats coming as, as

1910
02:10:57,750 --> 02:10:59,583
Barbara said, and she's like, yeah, no,

1911
02:10:59,583 --> 02:11:00,833
no, save her. She's like, yeah, you know

1912
02:11:00,833 --> 02:11:02,166
what? We still believe in you. We think,

1913
02:11:02,166 --> 02:11:03,666
we think what you're doing is great. And,

1914
02:11:04,000 --> 02:11:05,208
and now she's able to accomplish some

1915
02:11:05,208 --> 02:11:07,416
great things. So again, save our seasons

1916
02:11:07,416 --> 02:11:09,583
is coming in to literally save our seas.

1917
02:11:09,875 --> 02:11:11,000
And then I think this really helped. And

1918
02:11:11,000 --> 02:11:13,916
they should almost say it to, to save

1919
02:11:13,916 --> 02:11:15,750
awesome projects because that's what they

1920
02:11:15,750 --> 02:11:18,833
do as well as we continue to do. So, so

1921
02:11:18,833 --> 02:11:20,958
thank you to them. But yes, that's it for

1922
02:11:20,958 --> 02:11:22,416
today's episode. We want to thank you for

1923
02:11:22,416 --> 02:11:23,750
listening and thank you, Barbara, for

1924
02:11:23,750 --> 02:11:24,083
joining us on today's episode.

1925
02:11:25,125 --> 02:11:26,666
And Dave, it's always fun to do

1926
02:11:26,666 --> 02:11:28,208
podcasting with you. We really appreciate

1927
02:11:28,208 --> 02:11:29,416
it. Looking forward to doing some more.

1928
02:11:30,041 --> 02:11:31,333
And until next time, thank you so much

1929
02:11:31,333 --> 02:11:33,375
for joining us on the Beyond Just podcast

1930
02:11:33,375 --> 02:11:34,958
from Dave and I. We want to thank you.

1931
02:11:34,958 --> 02:11:36,583
Have a great day and happy conservation.