Shark Research in the Midst of Conflict: The Story of Igbal Elhassan

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Have you ever thought about doing a PhD in shark science and

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even doing a PhD while your country is in

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the thrust of a civil war? Just imagine how

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challenging that can be. Iqbal Alassan has

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done that. She's received her PhD but she did it

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during a civil war and the challenges she talks

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about on this episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. So

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I want you guys to hear this. This is going to be a very,

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very interesting interview and show. So let's start the

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show. In the early to mid 1900s,

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the only thing people knew about sharks was that they bit people from time to time.

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Some scientists started to get to know more about the larger sharks, studying their

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life histories and their fisheries. As the field grew, so did

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the diversity of fields within shark science. Public interest

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in sharks grew exponentially as a series of movies called Jaws peaked

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the people's fear and curiosity for these sharks. More

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information was revealed about these mysterious animals as the shark science field

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grew. From exploration to discovery to genetics and ecology, the

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Beyond Jaws podcast will introduce you to shark scientists of the American Alasma

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Brain Society and their work to help you better understand these

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wonderful species and take your knowledge Beyond Jaws.

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Hey, everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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I am your co-host, Andrew Lewin, with my co-host,

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I am really ready for this interview, Andrew. This is

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one I'm really looking forward to. I was really happy she

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was willing to come on. I've known Iqbal for a number of years, and

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she has a story of challenges of her journey that

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pales pretty much anybody else we've ever done, I believe. um,

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having to flee because of the civil, literally a civil war where she

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would either could have, would have had to leave or die basically. And,

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um, she's lost a lot of relatives along the way. It's just things

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people, most of us will never experience, thankfully in

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our life. And it's a, it's a really compelling story. And,

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Absolutely. It's very special to us to have, for her to be able to share this

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with us. Uh, so here is the interview with Igbal Elhassan

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talking about doing shark science as well as her

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PhD in Sudan from Cairo, Egypt.

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Enjoy the interview and we'll talk to you after. Hey Iqbal, welcome to

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the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to talk about sharks?

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Yeah, of course. Hello. Thank you for having me.

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You bet, you bet. Today on the Beyond Jaws podcast, we

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have a very special guest. We have Iqbal El-Hassan from

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the Sudan. Iqbal is a lecturer at the Department of Fisheries at

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the University of Bahri in Khartoum, which is the capital of Sudan.

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Before that, she was a lecturer at the University of Juba, where

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she became the head of the Fisheries Department at that university. However,

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as a result of the Second Sudanese Civil War, the university

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was temporarily relocated to Khartoum before it eventually moved

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back to Juba after South Sudan gained independence

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in 2011. After the separation from South Sudan, she

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became a lecturer at the Fisheries Department in the newly established University

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of Bahri. She also works as a local consultant for

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shark identification and runs training workshops for Marine

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Fisheries Administration and for regional identification workshops

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around the Red Sea. She's been a member of the IUCN Shark

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Specialist Group since 2005, and she's conducted research

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in areas little known to most Western researchers. This

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includes areas like northern Yemen, Eteria, and

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around the Arabian Sea. Her PhD has been a journey that

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we'll discuss today, and it has been quite a journey. Her

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education, she did a bachelor's of science degree at the University of

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Juba in fishery science with honors, a master's degree

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also at the University of Juba in fishery science. And as I said,

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she's currently working on her PhD at the University of Khartoum. And

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Thank you very much. Thank you. I'm happy to be

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Thank you. We're very happy to have you. Can you tell us, we always ask

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our guests, how did you first get interested in the ocean and

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You know, I grew up in Bursudan, where

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is the Red Sea. Yeah. My dad was

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working at a company in Khartoum and then before I

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pour, He moved to Bursudan to work at

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the branch of the company there. And me

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and the rest of the family, I mean,

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my brothers and sister, we grew up in Bursudan. And

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we become attached, me personally, I become attached to

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sea. Yeah. And then, yeah,

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yeah. For that reason, I joined Fisheries Science. I

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wanted to, yeah, of course, there is University of the

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Red Sea, and there is a Faculty of Marine Science.

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But at that time, the enrollment is

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just for boys. So, They

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don't have, yes, yes. So I joined. Just for boys. Yes. It

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changed. The first batch of girls was in

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2004. So. Really? Yeah. I studied

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fisheries science and yeah, after graduation, I appointed

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a teaching assistant

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in the department. that in 1999, yeah. And

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I was lucky that before

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I complete the year as

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a teaching assistant, I got, me and

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other teaching assistants at the college, we

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got an inauguration to do the master. And

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so, my master was on shark, but not

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directly. I mean, first,

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the head of the department at that time said

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to me, because there is shortage in the stuff for fish

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pathology, I suggested you

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do your study on fish pathology. And

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he said to me, go and talk to a part-timer who

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teaches here, and talk to Dr. Abdel-Jabbar, who

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teaches this subject. And

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in fact, my heart was in the Red Sea. So

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I said, he said, no, so go and talk to Abdul-Jabbar. And

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Abdul-Jabbar, I was lucky. I think that Abdul-Jabbar, I

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told him, I like very much your, I mean,

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the course. And I got A's. But

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actually, I want to do my master on marine science

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in Bursudan. And he said, no problem, Iqbal,

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because I got an offer from Saudi Arabia and

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I accepted it and I'm going to, yeah,

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so do what you want to do. Yeah.

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So I just, yeah.

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And I wrote a proposal on roofing

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color rubber, because there is a problem on

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that. Yeah, in Saudi Arabia and in Sudan also.

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They claimed it is overfished and there is no management measures.

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In Saudi Arabia they do, they have, they said they

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have a measurement, management measures

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for it, but in Sudan no. So I wrote a proposal for that and

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at that time I applied to Bangor and Liverpool.

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Yeah, because I want to study outside, I

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can gain experience or even

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good laboratory. So I got

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an acceptance from Liverpool and was a nice

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letter, as they say. You can do this

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in fishes in England, but when

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you come back, you can do it in the species you wrote in the proposal.

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And sadly, my mom broke her thigh.

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And I decided to be with her because

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I was the youngest girl for her. So I

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decided to be with my sister, married outside,

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and decided to be with her. And I told her, I

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will come to Liverpool and I will do the Red

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Sea to take care of you. Unfortunately, I

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mean, sadly, she passed away 10 days after after

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the operation. So I applied

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for... Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. Yeah.

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So I registered internally, I

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accepted the nomination

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of the university. And I registered with Dr. Sayed

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Mohamed Ali from the Faculty of Science, Red Sea. And

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my co-supervisor was Samir Yanni from Juba University. And

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then Dr. Sayed, the main supervisor, read

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the proposal and said, this is a very good proposal, but show

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it to Professor Abujetary at the University of

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Khartoum. he passed away, it was

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like we consider him in Sudan, like a father of

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fisheries in Sudan. And I went to his, yeah,

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in marina and freshwater, by the way, he guide, he have guide for freshwater and

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guide for basic form of sawaki, fishes of

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sawaki. And I met him in his office in the University of

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Khartoum, and he said, he read, he said, this is

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a very good proposal, but why value... I... Why

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you don't do it on shark instead?" Yeah.

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And I said, ... he said,

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consider this. And I went out ... of

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his office, like confused, how

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I can get the shark. At that time you know, by the

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way, because in Sudan, not like in Egypt here, no

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shark attacks. And we never hear

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about that in the media. And even when as kids

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or young, when we go to beach, we

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just afraid of torpedo fish. We never think

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Torpedoes, yes. Because electricity. Yeah,

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yeah. So, yeah. Yeah,

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both my supervisor asked me to write

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a proposal. They say he agrees with the idea of Prof.

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Samir, of Youssef Abu Jaderi. And they

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asked me to write a proposal. I wrote the

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proposal. And then, Yeah,

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it was just because Rauf Abu Jidari was also

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a member at Persica, you know Persica of course, Persica. That

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countries, some countries that lie on Red

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Sea and Gulf of Aden, Sudan, Saudi Arabia,

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Yemen, Jordan, except Eritrea. He

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was a member and he knows at that time there is

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a problem with the shark. in the whole region.

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No information, no even identifying the

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species, no scientific study, and

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also even they don't know the status for

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even any information about the fisheries. But most

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of the country claims that there is overfishing. So

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that is why Prof. Bugidere suggested this study to

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me. And I got excited with it, actually. Though

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I was sad with the passing away, just a few days of

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my mother, but I think going

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to see the challenge I found, I faced

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during the study, yeah, was a cure for

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me, for my, for the pain of the loss. So,

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the... The objective, I

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remember, was just identification of species on

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the Red Sea, of shark, the Red Sea, and

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breeding season, breeding season. And Professor

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Semirani just suggested that I

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made a hostility on the gonads, he said, to confirm the

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breeding season. And

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I choose, I choose the Gray Reef shark, because

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also there is a problem ... with the tourist ... agencies,

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the tourist ... department. There

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is, they claim there is ... because it is important for the

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tourist ... divers come for

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... to watch Gray Reef and Hammerhead. So, my

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study was, original one,

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the first ones in the Red Sea, and I think the

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whole, all the Red Sea, except after that the

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consultancy of Ramon Bonfils. Yeah,

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because he was a consultant after Persica. But

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I think my study was, I mean, for

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fisheries and biology was original one. And

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then, the problem was,

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at that time, there is

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claim, there is for fishing. And

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there is also, always, I

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mean, But there

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is no, I mean no, no information

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on the species or the status or anything. And there

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is also Marine Fisheries Administration

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always receive ... request

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for, for investors to,

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to conduct an, I mean, shark, commercial

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shark for free. and even from

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Yemen. Before

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I start the study there is a local order

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from the authority to ban fishing. That was in

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1998, even when I was a student. Yeah,

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but still it was on paper. Still

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there is poaching from foreign ports

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and illegal fishing from Sudan, also

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local fishermen. And so there is a lot of

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shark in the market, but finned, just

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shrunk. Yeah, just shrunk.

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Are you the first person really from Sudan to actually

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study sharks. I mean, I don't know anyone else. Are you the first person from

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You know, it is, it is, I

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mean, it is so that is still I'm the only one. I

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encourage a student. You're still the only one. I encourage students

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from our department, from the Marine Fisheries Science. Some

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start, but then quickly. One

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student told me, we need a quick career. Shark,

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yeah. Even in Sudan, you know. Even

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in Sudan, I think it's not easy. It's not easy.

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It's not easy. Right. I'm sure it must

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be difficult just so people, people. I

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didn't mention this earlier, but people listening at Igbo

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00:16:43,987 --> 00:16:47,208
is we're doing this podcast. She's in Cairo, Egypt right

246
00:16:47,248 --> 00:16:51,409
now because she had to flee her home country, Sudan,

247
00:16:51,449 --> 00:16:54,990
because of the civil war. She ordinarily would be in in

248
00:16:55,050 --> 00:16:59,832
Khartoum, but she's had to leave the country. I assume

249
00:17:00,052 --> 00:17:03,441
that's had a lot of impact on. I'm

250
00:17:03,561 --> 00:17:06,924
sure just shark, shark, just fisheries in general, just

251
00:17:06,944 --> 00:17:10,207
the whole life and life in Sudan. The fact

252
00:17:10,227 --> 00:17:13,350
you you're having to do your courses from, from

253
00:17:15,612 --> 00:17:19,396
I'm not working here in Egypt because it's not easy. They

254
00:17:19,416 --> 00:17:23,059
don't, they don't allow for the Egyptian don't allow for

255
00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:27,142
foreigner to work even in any job. Yeah.

256
00:17:27,162 --> 00:17:30,281
Gotcha. So it's hard to get

257
00:17:32,642 --> 00:17:36,123
I have to stay here. I got to stay, but this

258
00:17:36,183 --> 00:17:39,585
is not my final destination. I'm going to Port Sudan

259
00:17:39,645 --> 00:17:43,406
in September. I have a project to continue. Port

260
00:17:44,547 --> 00:17:48,186
I have a project. Now, is it safe? Is

261
00:17:49,967 --> 00:17:55,490
It's very busy now after the war. Yes, it's an operational city

262
00:17:55,510 --> 00:17:59,512
that is now affected also by

263
00:17:59,532 --> 00:18:03,074
the war because many, many now leave Hortoum

264
00:18:03,154 --> 00:18:06,376
and central towns to go to Port

265
00:18:06,396 --> 00:18:09,517
Sudan because it's safe to work there. And now it

266
00:18:09,578 --> 00:18:12,839
is crowded. But life is going on,

267
00:18:18,419 --> 00:18:21,900
Can you talk a little, because Sudan is so far removed

268
00:18:21,940 --> 00:18:24,981
from most people, can you tell us

269
00:18:25,021 --> 00:18:28,462
just a little about your country, a little bit kind of before

270
00:18:28,503 --> 00:18:31,844
the war, and how it is, a little bit about your

271
00:18:32,519 --> 00:18:36,986
Yeah, before 2011, before

272
00:18:37,026 --> 00:18:40,411
the separation of the South from Sudan, yeah,

273
00:18:40,431 --> 00:18:44,497
it was the largest country in Africa, Sudan.

274
00:18:45,338 --> 00:18:50,536
And Sudan have fast fresh water. the

275
00:18:50,556 --> 00:18:54,918
Nile, and other rivers. The

276
00:18:55,018 --> 00:18:58,800
only sea is the Red

277
00:18:59,060 --> 00:19:02,461
Sea. But then have, I

278
00:19:02,501 --> 00:19:06,683
mean, wealth of animals also, wildlife,

279
00:19:07,063 --> 00:19:10,661
agriculture. very rich country in

280
00:19:11,221 --> 00:19:14,563
terms of resources, yeah. And we will have

281
00:19:14,623 --> 00:19:18,145
well-education from the past when the colonists,

282
00:19:19,406 --> 00:19:23,028
British colonists, yeah. And good universities, yeah,

283
00:19:23,088 --> 00:19:27,010
good universities. But then, but

284
00:19:27,050 --> 00:19:30,693
we, it was hard time because we saw I

285
00:19:30,733 --> 00:19:34,276
mean, last year

286
00:19:34,456 --> 00:19:37,879
before this war, because of some

287
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,684
economic crisis, or economic

288
00:19:42,784 --> 00:19:47,248
sanction also, and it's affected people very much. And

289
00:19:48,449 --> 00:19:51,692
suddenly, I think I

290
00:19:51,732 --> 00:19:55,916
will avoid talking on politics. Yeah.

291
00:19:56,532 --> 00:20:00,178
Yeah, no, that's fine. That's fine. But of course, the war affected the

292
00:20:00,198 --> 00:20:05,675
whole country. Very

293
00:20:05,755 --> 00:20:09,678
sad, yeah. Even the education, even the primary schools, many

294
00:20:10,099 --> 00:20:14,102
kids couldn't continue their education. Because

295
00:20:14,142 --> 00:20:17,604
the school is closed, except

296
00:20:17,645 --> 00:20:21,427
in Bursudan. And university, even our students, for

297
00:20:21,868 --> 00:20:25,370
one year, no classes. And now they are discussing

298
00:20:25,491 --> 00:20:29,792
to teach online. And expenses, everything

299
00:20:29,993 --> 00:20:33,793
is expensive, very expensive. Anyway,

300
00:20:34,533 --> 00:20:38,114
most of us can go to the Emirates or

301
00:20:38,274 --> 00:20:43,055
Egypt. Many,

302
00:20:43,115 --> 00:20:47,416
many. We thank the Egyptians.

303
00:20:47,436 --> 00:20:51,637
They are very welcoming. But we hope, the

304
00:20:51,677 --> 00:20:55,318
people here, we hope to go back to our country, of course. Yeah. Yeah.

305
00:20:55,998 --> 00:20:59,098
Yeah. Of course, of

306
00:20:59,438 --> 00:21:02,819
course. People complain about different

307
00:21:02,859 --> 00:21:06,821
things, but you're literally trying to do your shark research in

308
00:21:06,861 --> 00:21:10,122
a war zone. And the fact that you're

309
00:21:10,302 --> 00:21:13,922
continuing to do your research going to Port Sudan and And

310
00:21:14,182 --> 00:21:17,724
you're concerned about illegal thinning that's going

311
00:21:17,944 --> 00:21:21,406
on and just the shark research. Yeah.

312
00:21:21,487 --> 00:21:24,948
Even here in Egypt, I wrote a

313
00:21:25,049 --> 00:21:28,731
proposal for Manta

314
00:21:28,811 --> 00:21:33,313
and Donga Bay. And still, I hope we

315
00:21:33,333 --> 00:21:37,776
can find funding. Because in September,

316
00:21:37,816 --> 00:21:42,841
if I got the fund, yeah. It's

317
00:21:42,881 --> 00:21:47,164
good, yeah. Then you'll go back. Even I got... I'm

318
00:21:47,224 --> 00:21:50,847
going to continue my project with Marine

319
00:21:50,867 --> 00:21:55,033
Fisheries Administration on green sawfish. Yeah,

320
00:21:55,573 --> 00:21:58,775
I'm going, yeah, yeah, yeah. And while in

321
00:21:58,875 --> 00:22:02,136
Egypt here, I participated with the shark and ray

322
00:22:03,017 --> 00:22:06,158
And I proposed important shark and

323
00:22:15,102 --> 00:22:18,824
Yeah. And I proposed for... Oh,

324
00:22:19,124 --> 00:22:22,605
yes. Important. Yeah. And I wrote with

325
00:22:23,205 --> 00:22:26,947
Rhianne Charlies and

326
00:22:27,127 --> 00:22:31,148
it's accepted because I have a lot of data of

327
00:22:31,569 --> 00:22:35,050
all these years of working on shark and rays. Recently,

328
00:22:35,090 --> 00:22:38,451
I'm focusing on rays and I have a collaboration with...

329
00:22:39,712 --> 00:22:46,753
I did, yeah, with Nylar Gavin. Anyway,

330
00:22:47,014 --> 00:22:54,560
I'm working on R.A.S.E. now. Working

331
00:22:54,580 --> 00:22:59,023
on R.A.S.E.? Yeah. Now I'm focusing on R.A.S.E.

332
00:22:59,223 --> 00:23:03,266
Because even before the war in

333
00:23:03,407 --> 00:23:06,849
April, I was in Pursutan collecting data. And

334
00:23:06,909 --> 00:23:10,850
I'm eager to go back, longing to go back, to continue even

335
00:23:10,930 --> 00:23:14,491
this, yeah. So, for my journey

336
00:23:14,551 --> 00:23:18,012
for the Master, it wasn't easy at

337
00:23:18,232 --> 00:23:21,673
all. Because at that time, a lot

338
00:23:21,713 --> 00:23:25,274
of sharks, and even I have to mention Christina Maria,

339
00:23:26,134 --> 00:23:31,195
the Italian who have an

340
00:23:31,295 --> 00:23:35,548
agency, tourism agency in Bursudan. Her

341
00:23:35,588 --> 00:23:39,070
husband and she, she always, I met

342
00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:42,432
her, now she back to Italy. She spent

343
00:23:42,532 --> 00:23:45,894
many years in Sudan. She make a lot of,

344
00:23:46,194 --> 00:23:50,677
I mean, defense for shark. Yeah,

345
00:23:51,037 --> 00:23:55,480
I always see her in the fish market when I was gone there.

346
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,042
Always angry when she see all this, I

347
00:24:00,082 --> 00:24:03,587
mean, many, many shark. Sometimes she call police

348
00:24:04,688 --> 00:24:08,072
and then just next day there is

349
00:24:08,212 --> 00:24:12,697
shark. And for me to collect the data, there

350
00:24:12,757 --> 00:24:16,921
is just trunk, trunk with only second

351
00:24:16,941 --> 00:24:20,713
dorsal fin and anal fin. And

352
00:24:21,554 --> 00:24:25,398
sometimes there is a bycatch for

353
00:24:25,719 --> 00:24:29,783
small, for a small shark, like a slit-eye shark. Now,

354
00:24:30,343 --> 00:24:33,546
no slit-eye shark at the market. I don't see it. It's

355
00:24:34,087 --> 00:24:37,250
not coming now. No. No, no. There's a lot of

356
00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:40,553
milk shark still. So, or spot tail

357
00:24:40,593 --> 00:24:44,657
shark, white tip reef shark. they

358
00:24:45,598 --> 00:24:49,021
brought as a whole, and I know this is by catch, not

359
00:24:49,061 --> 00:24:53,245
professional. But for professional fishermen, a

360
00:24:53,365 --> 00:24:57,589
lot of large, and also juveniles, sometimes

361
00:24:57,629 --> 00:25:01,132
juveniles brought as a whole. So my problem,

362
00:25:01,793 --> 00:25:06,997
I haven't attend, I mean, identification,

363
00:25:07,538 --> 00:25:11,142
shark identification training, And

364
00:25:11,182 --> 00:25:15,786
there is no literature, there is no literature also in

365
00:25:15,846 --> 00:25:18,948
the Library of the Red Sea or even in

366
00:25:19,068 --> 00:25:23,151
FAO Library in Khortoum. So,

367
00:25:23,492 --> 00:25:27,895
I reached out, yeah, I reached out to Ross Chaton at

368
00:25:27,935 --> 00:25:31,097
that time. I don't know him, but I read the

369
00:25:31,138 --> 00:25:34,240
name in FAO website and I

370
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,903
wrote to him, I'm a student doing this, but

371
00:25:37,983 --> 00:25:41,653
I don't have a literature. Kindly

372
00:25:41,693 --> 00:25:45,478
he sent, he sent literature like a

373
00:25:45,498 --> 00:25:49,102
publication, I mean like a case study of fisheries management,

374
00:25:49,122 --> 00:25:52,586
shark management, to big volume, yeah,

375
00:25:53,066 --> 00:25:56,230
to the library of the Red Sea and to

376
00:25:56,250 --> 00:26:01,408
the library of FAO. Yeah, and

377
00:26:01,428 --> 00:26:04,590
some publications, like a review of a

378
00:26:04,630 --> 00:26:07,952
word, the famous one by

379
00:26:08,012 --> 00:26:11,614
Ramón, in 1994. Ramón, yeah,

380
00:26:11,974 --> 00:26:15,837
he sent this also. And for

381
00:26:15,857 --> 00:26:19,339
the identification I found one guide,

382
00:26:19,619 --> 00:26:27,399
first edition of Leonardo You

383
00:26:27,419 --> 00:26:30,780
know him? Sorry. Who is

384
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,482
it? From South-West Africa. It's one of the guidebooks,

385
00:26:39,124 --> 00:26:42,806
Yes, Leonard Capanio. Okay. Yeah. First edition,

386
00:26:42,866 --> 00:26:46,908
I think. I found it in the library of Pau. But

387
00:26:47,008 --> 00:26:50,289
it was good, of course, but not

388
00:26:52,522 --> 00:26:55,887
I just want to let people know, FAO is

389
00:26:55,947 --> 00:27:00,093
another way of pronouncing it, FAO, which is a food and agriculture organization.

390
00:27:03,178 --> 00:27:09,176
No, no, most people call it, outside like the U.S. Everybody

391
00:27:09,216 --> 00:27:12,499
calls it FAO, but in the U.S. we call it FAO, so I just wanted to make sure people

392
00:27:15,181 --> 00:27:18,984
Thank you, because in Sudan we say FAO. Thank

393
00:27:19,845 --> 00:27:23,488
Yeah, no, I know. I

394
00:27:24,889 --> 00:27:28,652
And I, in the Library of the University of the

395
00:27:28,692 --> 00:27:33,876
College of Marine Science, I found identification

396
00:27:34,436 --> 00:27:38,662
guide for Arabian shark. by

397
00:27:43,948 --> 00:27:47,552
Randall. It was, it was very useful for me. Yeah.

398
00:27:48,834 --> 00:27:53,155
Very useful. Okay. Because it have image. image,

399
00:27:53,516 --> 00:27:56,738
I think image is ... yeah, is

400
00:27:56,778 --> 00:28:00,501
good than drawing. Drawing is good, yeah, but for the beginner or

401
00:28:00,961 --> 00:28:04,123
one who train himself, I think image is, could be,

402
00:28:04,143 --> 00:28:07,586
I mean, when comparisons, compares

403
00:28:07,626 --> 00:28:11,288
this with ... a life, I mean, life shark or ... and

404
00:28:11,388 --> 00:28:14,891
even in the guides also say teeth, the teeth ... for

405
00:28:14,911 --> 00:28:18,133
the shark. The

406
00:28:18,173 --> 00:28:21,436
teeth, yeah. the teeth. Yeah. And for

407
00:28:21,536 --> 00:28:24,940
two, for two months, I work on this, train

408
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,046
myself to identify shark. And

409
00:28:29,186 --> 00:28:32,620
I, I think There is something I

410
00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:36,081
enjoyed very much. And I think now I

411
00:28:36,121 --> 00:28:39,442
have experience on it. And I can do training for

412
00:28:39,502 --> 00:28:42,703
this, particularly for shark in

413
00:28:42,783 --> 00:28:47,604
Sudan and Eritrea. Because even in Eritrea, same

414
00:28:47,744 --> 00:28:50,885
like in Sudan, they brought the shark as

415
00:28:50,945 --> 00:28:54,846
a trunk without fins. And there

416
00:28:54,906 --> 00:28:58,367
is illegal fishing also. There is a pond, but illegal fishing

417
00:28:58,387 --> 00:29:03,069
like in Sudan. So, I just start

418
00:29:03,089 --> 00:29:07,191
to study the position of the dorsal, second

419
00:29:07,211 --> 00:29:11,033
dorsal fin, to the anal fin, and as a

420
00:29:11,073 --> 00:29:14,754
remark on the, on the body, like ... brown, brown

421
00:29:15,395 --> 00:29:18,736
lines, like in the sunburst shark, or the notch

422
00:29:18,976 --> 00:29:22,638
of the anal fin, like in the big eye shark, or

423
00:29:23,198 --> 00:29:26,740
inter-dorsal, inter-dorsal reach,

424
00:29:27,420 --> 00:29:31,001
some have and some, that was very useful, yeah.

425
00:29:31,381 --> 00:29:35,143
And took, I took video, videos and I took video,

426
00:29:35,283 --> 00:29:38,925
I mean, photos of, of,

427
00:29:39,405 --> 00:29:42,766
of the second dorsal fin and anal fin,

428
00:29:43,546 --> 00:29:47,348
yeah. ... That was very

429
00:29:47,408 --> 00:29:51,930
useful, yeah. And then, and even ... later,

430
00:29:54,496 --> 00:29:59,478
I tested myself when the sample

431
00:30:00,679 --> 00:30:04,160
I brought to the safe overseas, it

432
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,702
just shrunk. And I wrote, this is big eye shark,

433
00:30:08,162 --> 00:30:11,283
big eye shark. And they turned to

434
00:30:11,303 --> 00:30:15,385
be, after the genetic work, yeah, this is hammer,

435
00:30:15,925 --> 00:30:19,587
great hammerhead or smooth,

436
00:30:19,767 --> 00:30:23,653
I mean, great hammer or scalloped. In

437
00:30:23,673 --> 00:30:26,916
the lab, they work

438
00:30:27,036 --> 00:30:31,439
on 78 sharks,

439
00:30:31,659 --> 00:30:34,801
hammerhead, that I identified from the trunk as

440
00:30:35,182 --> 00:30:39,525
great hammerhead, and turned to be great hammerhead. I

441
00:30:39,565 --> 00:30:43,108
was... I love... I found it... Pardon?

442
00:30:44,148 --> 00:30:48,191
I enjoyed it very much, to identify shark

443
00:30:50,814 --> 00:30:53,976
Have you thought about trying to produce a guide, to try

444
00:30:56,378 --> 00:31:00,241
Yes, yes. Thank you for this question very much because

445
00:31:00,261 --> 00:31:04,424
I was thinking of

446
00:31:04,464 --> 00:31:09,423
this and I found it very useful. a

447
00:31:09,463 --> 00:31:13,866
whole in northern Yemen or southern Yemen, they

448
00:31:14,346 --> 00:31:18,329
brought the shark as a whole. But in Eritrea, I

449
00:31:18,369 --> 00:31:21,972
have contact with the research on

450
00:31:22,012 --> 00:31:26,394
shark, research from Eritrea, from marine faculty

451
00:31:26,515 --> 00:31:31,938
and from fisheries department. When you talk about this,

452
00:31:32,439 --> 00:31:35,801
they need this here. And in Sudan, because it

453
00:31:36,581 --> 00:31:40,261
is not It's not practical

454
00:31:41,202 --> 00:31:44,504
just to take a tissue, I mean as

455
00:31:44,524 --> 00:31:49,647
a record for the Marine Fisheries Administration. It's

456
00:31:49,667 --> 00:31:53,089
not practical to take a tissue and send it to a genetic

457
00:31:53,169 --> 00:31:56,196
lab. And to say this is a

458
00:31:56,316 --> 00:31:59,980
sand bar or a

459
00:32:00,260 --> 00:32:03,664
big eye shark, nose shark, this is

460
00:32:03,784 --> 00:32:07,367
good for research, but for record for fisheries

461
00:32:07,447 --> 00:32:11,972
administration, the practical things is

462
00:32:12,232 --> 00:32:15,705
from traditional I

463
00:32:15,745 --> 00:32:19,726
think that, yeah. Training on the traditional procedure

464
00:32:19,826 --> 00:32:23,107
to identify shark. Yeah. So, I

465
00:32:23,127 --> 00:32:27,748
wrote to Persica about this. Yeah.

466
00:32:34,650 --> 00:32:38,651
Persica is regional countries

467
00:32:38,831 --> 00:32:43,133
of the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden organization.

468
00:32:43,473 --> 00:32:47,251
Okay. So, at that time, yeah,

469
00:32:48,192 --> 00:32:53,078
in 9... in 2... in 2012, I

470
00:32:53,318 --> 00:32:57,302
taught ... training ... course, workshop

471
00:32:57,643 --> 00:33:03,020
for the officers from Marine Fisheries Administration. And

472
00:33:04,161 --> 00:33:07,463
yeah, I trained them on, theoretically, on the

473
00:33:07,503 --> 00:33:11,265
whole shark, yeah. Because we don't find, normally,

474
00:33:11,965 --> 00:33:15,187
whole shark. But I focus on this, what I

475
00:33:15,748 --> 00:33:18,929
did. Yeah, on

476
00:33:18,969 --> 00:33:22,211
this feature, yes. Yeah, and most

477
00:33:22,271 --> 00:33:26,574
of them were so excited. And they have exams, also

478
00:33:26,754 --> 00:33:31,276
senior, junior and senior officers, from

479
00:33:31,336 --> 00:33:36,702
the administration. It

480
00:33:36,742 --> 00:33:40,183
was very useful. At that time, because I prepared, I

481
00:33:40,443 --> 00:33:44,044
did hard for preparation for the workshop, and

482
00:33:44,084 --> 00:33:47,905
I found, even they asked me to do in Arabic. And

483
00:33:47,945 --> 00:33:51,086
I found it, I have a material, so I wrote to

484
00:33:51,146 --> 00:33:54,208
Persica. I

485
00:33:54,248 --> 00:33:57,850
have material for this, and there is need for

486
00:33:58,230 --> 00:34:01,492
shark record, and because of the problem of

487
00:34:02,032 --> 00:34:06,755
you couldn't find a shark

488
00:34:06,855 --> 00:34:10,317
as a whole to identify. So, they say good, they

489
00:34:10,337 --> 00:34:15,159
say no. I didn't hear. But

490
00:34:19,601 --> 00:34:23,560
Okay, yeah. So, are you still... Do

491
00:34:23,580 --> 00:34:26,682
you still try, so you're going, you're doing, you're surveying Port Sudan, do you

492
00:34:26,702 --> 00:34:30,445
still survey some of the other countries there, like Eritrea

493
00:34:30,485 --> 00:34:33,667
and some of the other places, do you still go, go to those locations to

494
00:34:37,709 --> 00:34:41,692
Yeah, but you know, if you let

495
00:34:41,732 --> 00:34:45,555
me just continue on,

496
00:34:46,975 --> 00:34:50,778
how I collect data for the... can I... can I do? For

497
00:34:50,798 --> 00:34:54,601
the Master? Yeah. Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank

498
00:34:54,621 --> 00:34:57,923
you, thank you. At that time, for

499
00:34:58,003 --> 00:35:01,466
two months I couldn't find... find data,

500
00:35:01,526 --> 00:35:05,649
just for bycatch. And then, and this

501
00:35:05,749 --> 00:35:09,292
is from that I mean... Okay,

502
00:35:10,172 --> 00:35:14,830
I... I could say, this is... gray

503
00:35:14,850 --> 00:35:18,792
reef sharks, but I need to confirmation, yeah,

504
00:35:19,692 --> 00:35:23,794
to say there is a shark like this in the Red Sea. At

505
00:35:23,854 --> 00:35:27,976
that time, with this situation, I

506
00:35:27,996 --> 00:35:32,277
knew, I heard there is three, three, three

507
00:35:32,437 --> 00:35:36,519
vessels are coming, have

508
00:35:36,559 --> 00:35:40,120
come, that had come from South Africa to

509
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,849
invest in Sudan. one person for sardine

510
00:35:43,929 --> 00:35:47,712
and one long line for to

511
00:35:47,732 --> 00:35:51,654
invest in tuna. And the other one,

512
00:35:51,814 --> 00:35:55,817
I don't remember which, anyway, and

513
00:35:55,857 --> 00:35:59,059
they stay in a resort and there

514
00:35:59,119 --> 00:36:02,541
is inlet. The boats were there

515
00:36:02,761 --> 00:36:06,523
till they got the final permission

516
00:36:06,563 --> 00:36:10,146
to work, to go to Burslan to resume the

517
00:36:10,166 --> 00:36:16,178
work. The long-line vessels went

518
00:36:16,398 --> 00:36:19,681
to sea and illegally fished for

519
00:36:19,721 --> 00:36:23,804
shark. They fished from offshore

520
00:36:23,904 --> 00:36:27,788
water that fishermen couldn't

521
00:36:28,108 --> 00:36:32,112
reach it because of the

522
00:36:32,572 --> 00:36:36,115
pot. This is a long vessel, I mean big vessels with

523
00:36:36,175 --> 00:36:39,877
long lines. big

524
00:36:40,377 --> 00:36:43,999
hoax. So the marine security,

525
00:36:44,159 --> 00:36:47,580
quite same. There is lots of

526
00:36:47,720 --> 00:36:52,362
fins. And then there is

527
00:36:52,862 --> 00:36:56,404
a committee from the research center, faculty of science, and

528
00:36:56,584 --> 00:37:00,545
marine administration. And then they say, no, our

529
00:37:00,665 --> 00:37:03,747
aim is to invest in tuna. This is

530
00:37:03,807 --> 00:37:08,543
just we do it. And because they I

531
00:37:08,603 --> 00:37:11,966
mean, the license for the investment was from

532
00:37:12,166 --> 00:37:15,949
higher, not from the administration, from

533
00:37:15,989 --> 00:37:19,631
the Ministry of Investment. So they just pass

534
00:37:19,691 --> 00:37:23,734
it and start

535
00:37:23,754 --> 00:37:27,377
the work. And I talked to my supervisor, I

536
00:37:27,397 --> 00:37:31,803
said, It is better to get

537
00:37:31,863 --> 00:37:35,664
a permission to accompany the boat. They

538
00:37:35,684 --> 00:37:39,885
say they are going for tuna, but

539
00:37:40,285 --> 00:37:45,907
even though I expect with long line, there

540
00:37:46,487 --> 00:37:49,970
must be shark. And

541
00:37:50,050 --> 00:37:53,412
shark, not that shark normally found in

542
00:37:53,552 --> 00:37:57,233
the sea, in the fish market. I expect migratory shark.

543
00:37:58,033 --> 00:38:01,695
I expect. And even from the things I saw when

544
00:38:02,475 --> 00:38:06,897
the police caught it, there is,

545
00:38:07,597 --> 00:38:11,919
I mean, migratory shark. Mako, white tip, great

546
00:38:12,419 --> 00:38:15,893
oceanic white tip shark. Yeah, so

547
00:38:16,073 --> 00:38:19,875
to get the permission, yeah, I got the permission. The

548
00:38:19,955 --> 00:38:23,696
Sudanese, the Sudanese manager, the

549
00:38:23,736 --> 00:38:27,618
Sudanese and the translator who came from Spain.

550
00:38:27,958 --> 00:38:31,920
This is Spanish, Spanish ports. work

551
00:38:32,041 --> 00:38:35,282
for many times in South Africa, but then they

552
00:38:35,322 --> 00:38:38,544
moved to Sudan. The translator Sudanese who live in

553
00:38:38,764 --> 00:38:42,426
Spanish were very supportive. They

554
00:38:42,446 --> 00:38:46,329
talked to the director of the Spanish company, and they said they

555
00:38:47,309 --> 00:38:50,811
will allow me to accompany the

556
00:38:50,851 --> 00:38:54,433
ship. And I got, they said, I mean,

557
00:38:54,593 --> 00:38:57,835
I got the final permission from the Ministry of Agriculture in Sudan.

558
00:38:59,554 --> 00:39:03,015
And my supervisor was so excited for the idea.

559
00:39:04,175 --> 00:39:07,616
Yes. And I did three trips. They said, we

560
00:39:07,696 --> 00:39:12,638
are going for tuna. But unfortunately,

561
00:39:12,918 --> 00:39:17,019
there is no tuna, even a commercial tuna in the Red Sea.

562
00:39:17,259 --> 00:39:21,100
I think, I think, yeah. So,

563
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:26,775
we did three trips. And the challenge was, No,

564
00:39:27,935 --> 00:39:31,536
no woman, no girl accompany, I

565
00:39:31,976 --> 00:39:35,677
mean, fishing, fishing boat at that time. And

566
00:39:35,817 --> 00:39:39,358
even one woman among men,

567
00:39:39,838 --> 00:39:43,119
no. This is even for a conservative city like

568
00:39:43,179 --> 00:39:46,700
Barcelona, particularly at that time. So,

569
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:51,182
I remember ... one

570
00:39:51,262 --> 00:39:55,305
from a company that ... expect

571
00:39:55,325 --> 00:39:58,628
the safety of the fish, of the ship, say to

572
00:39:58,668 --> 00:40:01,850
me, it was just ... we

573
00:40:01,890 --> 00:40:06,214
were traveling, next day, he said to me, your

574
00:40:06,274 --> 00:40:09,456
family don't ... care about you, I

575
00:40:09,476 --> 00:40:12,779
said, why? He said, this is a very

576
00:40:12,899 --> 00:40:16,768
old, very old ship. There

577
00:40:16,808 --> 00:40:20,189
is risk because the skipper or the captain don't

578
00:40:20,229 --> 00:40:23,551
know the way, I mean, to

579
00:40:23,611 --> 00:40:27,092
avoid the Kuala Reef. Even just Sudanese can

580
00:40:27,292 --> 00:40:30,673
know this. There will be an accident. You don't see

581
00:40:30,713 --> 00:40:33,954
that boats that have an accident, the

582
00:40:33,994 --> 00:40:38,136
third one, and just because there is a hole. Now

583
00:40:38,176 --> 00:40:41,397
it's out of work. I

584
00:40:41,437 --> 00:40:45,166
think I talked to my sister,

585
00:40:45,447 --> 00:40:49,631
my late sister. I am going for

586
00:40:49,651 --> 00:40:52,954
this trip. And she said, no, no, no, no, please,

587
00:40:53,034 --> 00:40:57,279
no. She was in Dubai at that time. Don't go. Because

588
00:40:57,579 --> 00:41:00,942
it is fine to

589
00:41:01,002 --> 00:41:04,833
die on land, not in sea. eaten

590
00:41:04,853 --> 00:41:08,116
by a shark or don't find your

591
00:41:08,156 --> 00:41:11,498
body. My elder sister said, go, God is with you.

592
00:41:12,159 --> 00:41:16,042
So this encouraged me to go. I wasn't afraid, actually.

593
00:41:16,062 --> 00:41:19,545
I wasn't afraid. I was excited to do my research. So

594
00:41:19,805 --> 00:41:23,267
one thing I was worried about is a

595
00:41:23,368 --> 00:41:26,950
woman on a boat with

596
00:41:27,050 --> 00:41:30,873
men. For me, it's fine. I'm a researcher. But

597
00:41:30,933 --> 00:41:35,599
it's not normal for the community there. I

598
00:41:35,619 --> 00:41:39,141
remember when I let

599
00:41:39,161 --> 00:41:43,264
her go on the boat, and the Sudanese

600
00:41:43,304 --> 00:41:46,526
translator was with me, talked to

601
00:41:46,546 --> 00:41:49,908
the workers, the Sudanese workers. There is Spanish

602
00:41:49,948 --> 00:41:53,270
and Sudanese workers. They said, take care of her. And

603
00:41:53,490 --> 00:41:57,073
I know I could take care of myself, but

604
00:41:57,113 --> 00:42:01,655
thank you for him, for his caring. Yeah. So

605
00:42:02,796 --> 00:42:06,672
just one day, The ship hit

606
00:42:06,692 --> 00:42:10,934
the Kola Reef. And

607
00:42:10,974 --> 00:42:14,276
we come back to Bursudan. Next day, just

608
00:42:14,376 --> 00:42:17,558
two days, Jack on board and got again to

609
00:42:17,578 --> 00:42:21,280
the sea. And then there's a

610
00:42:21,580 --> 00:42:25,002
few many, I mean, oceanic white tip

611
00:42:25,062 --> 00:42:28,724
shark, meko shark, tiger shark,

612
00:42:29,504 --> 00:42:33,927
and large silky

613
00:42:33,947 --> 00:42:37,613
shark. Silky shards, yeah.

614
00:42:38,154 --> 00:42:42,775
Silky shards. Yeah, it is painful to see this very... I

615
00:42:42,975 --> 00:42:46,876
never saw this, I mean, I think maximum, maximum

616
00:42:46,916 --> 00:42:50,777
size. Yeah. And, I

617
00:42:50,797 --> 00:42:53,978
did, I mean ... feed, food and

618
00:42:53,998 --> 00:42:58,560
feeding habit. Because they, because they ... they

619
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,721
take ... they take the liver, they take the

620
00:43:01,741 --> 00:43:04,882
liver and just throw the meat, throw the meat, throw the

621
00:43:04,902 --> 00:43:08,253
meat, throw the meat, yeah. So this was

622
00:43:08,393 --> 00:43:11,595
an opportunity, though it is painful. No

623
00:43:11,655 --> 00:43:15,197
one wants a shark to die, but

624
00:43:15,237 --> 00:43:18,639
yeah. I did, yeah, I

625
00:43:18,659 --> 00:43:22,782
mean, food and feeding habits. I mean, food, I

626
00:43:22,822 --> 00:43:26,344
mean, stomach content, I mean. For tiger sharks.

627
00:43:26,364 --> 00:43:30,266
Stomach content, yeah. Yeah, mackerel shark and all. Just

628
00:43:30,347 --> 00:43:33,549
four, four species. And for

629
00:43:33,609 --> 00:43:36,697
me, it was, yeah, All

630
00:43:36,757 --> 00:43:39,900
of this, like, yeah. Just I

631
00:43:39,940 --> 00:43:43,323
was astonished to find garbage in

632
00:43:43,343 --> 00:43:47,747
the stomach of tiger shark. Cans. Found

633
00:43:47,787 --> 00:43:52,491
garbage. Old wallet. Passport, yeah.

634
00:43:52,931 --> 00:43:56,554
But also, yeah, turtle, sea turtle, yeah. Or

635
00:43:58,416 --> 00:44:01,739
Yeah, I don't know. You're quite a

636
00:44:01,819 --> 00:44:05,284
unique person being I say you're quite unique

637
00:44:05,304 --> 00:44:08,586
in that you were the first one to start doing, to

638
00:44:08,646 --> 00:44:12,248
research in a, especially with being a woman in

639
00:44:12,348 --> 00:44:16,011
a, in a very male oriented society to do, to do study

640
00:44:16,071 --> 00:44:19,633
sharks and then to be able to go out on, on boats to

641
00:44:19,693 --> 00:44:23,275
continue your studies out there. It must've been, and

642
00:44:23,295 --> 00:44:26,757
there's nobody that's done any work. It's gotta be like, you're really,

643
00:44:29,766 --> 00:44:33,230
Thank you. I remember, this is the second trip,

644
00:44:34,712 --> 00:44:37,975
just I was, I thank the

645
00:44:38,596 --> 00:44:42,180
Sudanese and the Spanish companies that because they gave

646
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,624
me a room, separate room and even there is, yeah,

647
00:44:46,605 --> 00:44:50,280
and at night, one night, I

648
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,024
think that was the last day of the trip. At

649
00:44:54,104 --> 00:44:57,547
night I was just sitting at the deck and

650
00:44:57,767 --> 00:45:02,831
watching the waves. Suddenly there's darkness and

651
00:45:02,912 --> 00:45:08,117
people come from up there, my room is there. in

652
00:45:08,137 --> 00:45:11,239
the first floor, the port. They come with the

653
00:45:11,299 --> 00:45:15,021
Russians, the captain and the engineering.

654
00:45:15,742 --> 00:45:19,544
They say, there is a big problem, a big problem. Sudanese

655
00:45:19,584 --> 00:45:23,046
engineering was so frightened. He

656
00:45:23,086 --> 00:45:27,309
said, it is better to go out, because

657
00:45:27,569 --> 00:45:31,231
we, we, we may, there is a problem with the engine. We

658
00:45:31,271 --> 00:45:34,813
may, the port may sink. or

659
00:45:35,354 --> 00:45:38,576
hit by other boats, because we are

660
00:45:38,876 --> 00:45:42,758
in the main channel and there is no light. It

661
00:45:42,778 --> 00:45:45,960
was horrible times here. But then they

662
00:45:46,020 --> 00:45:49,663
fix the problems and we go in the

663
00:45:49,703 --> 00:45:53,065
morning back to the port of Sudan. I don't want to, yes, this

664
00:45:53,705 --> 00:45:57,128
is just the last trip was

665
00:45:59,790 --> 00:46:03,693
... as the last day also, there was, in the

666
00:46:03,733 --> 00:46:07,455
morning, when they set the line, ... the

667
00:46:07,475 --> 00:46:11,177
weather was so nice, breeze,

668
00:46:11,357 --> 00:46:14,739
fresh breeze, and people were happy, and

669
00:46:14,759 --> 00:46:18,161
the Spanish ... one of the Spanish crew, crew

670
00:46:18,721 --> 00:46:22,363
was sinking in Spanish, and, and then, just

671
00:46:22,563 --> 00:46:25,705
appeared all, you know, all, as I

672
00:46:25,745 --> 00:46:30,187
pronounce it correctly, Owl,

673
00:46:30,447 --> 00:46:34,049
owl, owl pet, owl pet, owl,

674
00:46:35,670 --> 00:46:39,452
owl pet. Some people ... treat

675
00:46:46,275 --> 00:46:50,277
Owl fish, yeah. When it come, suddenly show

676
00:46:50,397 --> 00:46:53,619
up, and stand on the ... on

677
00:46:53,639 --> 00:46:57,541
the boat, and some becoming like ... Oh,

678
00:46:57,561 --> 00:47:01,719
this is will bring bad luck for us. And

679
00:47:01,739 --> 00:47:05,041
there is... yeah. And

680
00:47:05,301 --> 00:47:09,883
some people say, no, this is just superstition.

681
00:47:10,103 --> 00:47:13,684
And suddenly the captain, he is from

682
00:47:14,685 --> 00:47:18,126
Chile, I remember, came and just, he hot tempered,

683
00:47:18,687 --> 00:47:22,088
he just made a fight, a harsh talk with

684
00:47:22,148 --> 00:47:27,711
two, two aircrafts, and suddenly the happiness turned

685
00:47:27,751 --> 00:47:31,132
to be on him, just silent and angry. And

686
00:47:31,152 --> 00:47:36,553
then, in the night, the captain

687
00:47:36,633 --> 00:47:40,114
received a call from the other port. The

688
00:47:40,134 --> 00:47:43,595
captain had a heart stroke. And

689
00:47:43,615 --> 00:47:47,096
we have to go and pull the... Yeah, and

690
00:47:47,116 --> 00:47:50,277
we have to go and pull the port. And there

691
00:47:50,317 --> 00:47:53,638
is a problem with the engine also. We go and...

692
00:47:54,585 --> 00:47:57,947
I remember, it was time to do this

693
00:47:58,027 --> 00:48:01,409
and to fix that. And ... I

694
00:48:01,429 --> 00:48:04,872
remember when they want to, I mean, trying to pull the port to

695
00:48:04,892 --> 00:48:08,194
the other port and the port is swing from side to

696
00:48:08,234 --> 00:48:12,537
side and, and I saw the water from the window ... very

697
00:48:12,597 --> 00:48:15,899
high. Next day we

698
00:48:15,939 --> 00:48:19,201
go back, that was the last one, the last, the

699
00:48:19,241 --> 00:48:23,105
third one was the last trip. You go back down, fortunately

700
00:48:23,225 --> 00:48:26,526
the captain was okay and he left to Spain.

701
00:48:28,267 --> 00:48:32,349
So, it didn't

702
00:48:32,549 --> 00:48:37,311
take a long time, I heard about illegal

703
00:48:37,351 --> 00:48:40,912
fishing from two boats. Fishing

704
00:48:40,992 --> 00:48:45,754
is a southern coast. ... yeah,

705
00:48:46,414 --> 00:48:50,356
the police cost ... quoted them, and there was 5 ton of

706
00:48:54,438 --> 00:48:57,620
Yeah. And ... one,

707
00:48:57,780 --> 00:49:01,542
one fisherman bought ... he bought ... the

708
00:49:01,602 --> 00:49:05,244
shark, and it was a chance also

709
00:49:05,264 --> 00:49:08,645
to work on these 5 tons, in a summer,

710
00:49:09,226 --> 00:49:13,293
to work on 5 tons in a summer, And

711
00:49:13,673 --> 00:49:17,078
... also a fasting, it was a fasting month I remember,

712
00:49:17,098 --> 00:49:26,530
and it was ... I

713
00:49:26,570 --> 00:49:31,296
mean, the health... The department of

714
00:49:31,356 --> 00:49:34,580
health at that time, they said for the fishermen, you have

715
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,305
to take this in a neighboring fish, neighboring

716
00:49:38,405 --> 00:49:42,190
hood, fish as a piece, mainly

717
00:49:42,230 --> 00:49:45,650
for healthy reasons. and

718
00:49:46,151 --> 00:49:49,954
all the people from the neighborhood come out. Many never

719
00:49:50,154 --> 00:49:54,217
saw shark. Kids, women, men, yeah.

720
00:49:55,037 --> 00:49:58,200
I've gone to air consist and there is

721
00:49:58,420 --> 00:50:02,603
a student from secondary schools also among

722
00:50:03,324 --> 00:50:07,065
people and I asked them to

723
00:50:07,505 --> 00:50:11,106
record for me. Because I have to work fast,

724
00:50:11,266 --> 00:50:14,907
in hurry. Because there is a processor, fish processor from

725
00:50:14,927 --> 00:50:18,248
the fish market. They work on cut, on hurry,

726
00:50:18,548 --> 00:50:22,589
and ... anyway, I collect ... yes, data

727
00:50:22,770 --> 00:50:25,890
on ... statistic data, or

728
00:50:26,150 --> 00:50:29,331
even for ... life history, I

729
00:50:29,371 --> 00:50:32,932
mean ... characteristic ... very

730
00:50:32,952 --> 00:50:37,503
hard work, from morning to Lion.

731
00:50:41,230 --> 00:50:44,912
Yeah, and then, in, in

732
00:50:44,972 --> 00:50:48,273
December also, there is a, also, this was,

733
00:50:48,433 --> 00:50:52,055
that was in August, and in December, another two birds,

734
00:50:52,655 --> 00:50:56,097
were caught from the North Stream caught. This is another area.

735
00:50:56,677 --> 00:51:00,059
That is why I know, I add a chapter for

736
00:51:00,119 --> 00:51:04,280
my Master, for my thesis, Geographical Distribution.

737
00:51:04,981 --> 00:51:08,502
Because I know, with shark and ... from South

738
00:51:08,542 --> 00:51:12,211
and from the North. And same hard work,

739
00:51:12,512 --> 00:51:15,774
and yeah, yeah. But that is just a joke, a

740
00:51:15,834 --> 00:51:19,297
joke. Okay, thank you. Sorry,

741
00:51:21,318 --> 00:51:24,541
No, I was going to say... Yeah, continue. No, I was going to say...

742
00:51:24,641 --> 00:51:28,564
I was going to say when... So, all

743
00:51:28,604 --> 00:51:32,207
this stuff now, you're going to go back in September to see what's... to

744
00:51:32,287 --> 00:51:35,889
follow up on all this, with the finning and the sharks, now

745
00:51:40,562 --> 00:51:44,604
There is other, I mean, a new thing because

746
00:51:44,664 --> 00:51:48,046
of the law, yeah. At

747
00:51:48,086 --> 00:51:51,967
that time, it's still local order. And

748
00:51:52,047 --> 00:51:56,069
I, even when I, I mean, defend

749
00:51:56,109 --> 00:51:59,711
my thesis, I still continue working

750
00:52:00,451 --> 00:52:03,873
from my salary. Whenever I go to Wurzlan, I go to the course

751
00:52:04,013 --> 00:52:07,204
and I, Lot of research, just on the search of

752
00:52:07,244 --> 00:52:10,750
sharks, but I work hard for awareness campaign

753
00:52:11,451 --> 00:52:17,060
amongst the fishermen, by myself, without

754
00:52:17,601 --> 00:52:21,321
... I mean fund from any, any, any agency. I

755
00:52:21,341 --> 00:52:25,002
go to South African and the North, in the fish market, collecting

756
00:52:25,042 --> 00:52:29,584
data or talking with people. And there is positive, positive

757
00:52:29,604 --> 00:52:32,986
stories. I don't want a lot of bread for the, because of the time.

758
00:52:33,706 --> 00:52:37,187
Positive stories, there is a

759
00:52:37,567 --> 00:52:41,309
shark, one fisherman who

760
00:52:42,129 --> 00:52:45,570
fish for shark, he quit it. He's, he's,

761
00:52:45,870 --> 00:52:49,012
yeah. He told me, generally, I

762
00:52:50,923 --> 00:52:55,046
I was going to say, this has been fascinating, hearing

763
00:52:55,087 --> 00:52:58,369
your story and what you're doing and how all

764
00:52:58,409 --> 00:53:01,652
the research and your challenges that you've had to overcome being a

765
00:53:01,712 --> 00:53:05,074
woman working in this part of the world, not to mention the other stuff. And

766
00:53:05,094 --> 00:53:08,237
it's really fascinating. It's been a

767
00:53:08,277 --> 00:53:11,619
terrific interview to have with you. And we're looking forward to

768
00:53:12,240 --> 00:53:15,342
hearing more in the future after we do some of

769
00:53:15,742 --> 00:53:19,998
your next trip to Port Sudan in September and everything. Definitely

770
00:53:20,018 --> 00:53:23,640
at some point we'd like to have you come back on and follow up and talk some more about

771
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:27,502
your amazing journey that you have here. Thank

772
00:53:27,542 --> 00:53:30,944
you so much for coming on and sharing your

773
00:53:32,785 --> 00:53:35,947
Thank you. Thank you. We appreciate it. Thank you

774
00:53:36,007 --> 00:53:39,249
Igbal for joining us on this episode of the beyond jaws

775
00:53:39,309 --> 00:53:42,950
podcast, Dave, what an incredible story. What

776
00:53:43,691 --> 00:53:47,432
Uh, it was, yeah, it was what I thought it would be. It was quite an amazing story.

777
00:53:47,492 --> 00:53:50,794
She has, I didn't realize when we started, I forgot that she'd actually had,

778
00:53:50,834 --> 00:53:54,155
she did had finished her PhD cause it was, it was a journey and a half

779
00:53:54,195 --> 00:53:57,657
literally having to flee the country. Of course, if you

780
00:53:57,677 --> 00:54:01,558
didn't pick up, she's in Cairo, Egypt right now doing, doing,

781
00:54:01,699 --> 00:54:05,845
uh, doing the interview cause she can't go back to a cartoon. anywhere

782
00:54:05,865 --> 00:54:09,028
there because they're literally there because of the civil war. She's been,

783
00:54:09,269 --> 00:54:13,052
and the amazing thing is she's still trying to carry on doing her shark research,

784
00:54:13,092 --> 00:54:16,715
like trying to get into port Sudan and wherever she can sneak

785
00:54:16,735 --> 00:54:20,058
in and see what's going on. And she's still monitoring like the shark fin

786
00:54:20,118 --> 00:54:23,522
trade. I mean, you talk about a, just a

787
00:54:23,582 --> 00:54:27,245
compelling story and she didn't even, you know, probably have

788
00:54:27,265 --> 00:54:31,253
to have her back on at a future date, uh, update. Cause she's, She

789
00:54:31,353 --> 00:54:34,634
still has a lot more that she could have gone into, uh, that

790
00:54:34,874 --> 00:54:38,736
just, it was just an amazing story, which she's, she's had to do and persistence.

791
00:54:39,416 --> 00:54:42,897
And she, and, you know, she's been to like places like Yemen and

792
00:54:43,377 --> 00:54:46,978
at Daria and all around that whole area and the Horn of Africa, which

793
00:54:47,058 --> 00:54:50,373
is just really. very dangerous to be

794
00:54:50,453 --> 00:54:53,795
just, you know, certainly for Westerners, but even for someone

795
00:54:53,835 --> 00:54:57,297
like her Sudanese who speaks the language is extremely dangerous for

796
00:54:57,337 --> 00:55:00,839
her to be in there. And she's still studying the sharks in that area. It's

797
00:55:01,660 --> 00:55:04,881
It really makes you think, you know, a lot of times over here in

798
00:55:05,182 --> 00:55:08,664
North America, we complain about doing, you know, graduate school, we

799
00:55:08,684 --> 00:55:12,466
complain about, you know, the challenges that we face here in

800
00:55:13,006 --> 00:55:16,373
North America. But a lot of times our life is not on the line. And

801
00:55:16,413 --> 00:55:19,615
it really puts things into perspective of what some people will go

802
00:55:19,695 --> 00:55:22,957
through to follow their dreams of being in shark

803
00:55:22,997 --> 00:55:26,239
science and being in shark conservation. And this was one of those stories with

804
00:55:26,619 --> 00:55:30,101
Iqbal being able to not only complete a PhD,

805
00:55:30,121 --> 00:55:33,763
but continue to find out more information on these

806
00:55:33,803 --> 00:55:37,766
sharks and these elasmobranchs. It's

807
00:55:37,826 --> 00:55:41,608
just absolutely amazing. Love the fact that she

808
00:55:41,648 --> 00:55:44,910
came on and shared that story with us. And it's

809
00:55:44,970 --> 00:55:48,173
not easy. Right. To talk about a civil war that

810
00:55:48,213 --> 00:55:51,354
has affected her family and friends and just her

811
00:55:53,234 --> 00:55:57,476
I was going to say, you know, she didn't even really get it. You know, she's lost a lot of relatives during

812
00:55:57,536 --> 00:56:00,677
out this throughout this process. She really didn't get it. She's we spoke with her

813
00:56:00,737 --> 00:56:04,178
off air. And of course, I've known her for a while, but she just I mean, it's

814
00:56:04,218 --> 00:56:07,659
just it's it's it's powerful and it's compelling. And

815
00:56:07,959 --> 00:56:11,320
and she just and she just soldiers on, just moves on.

816
00:56:11,380 --> 00:56:15,415
And just despite all of those challenges, And,

817
00:56:15,675 --> 00:56:19,176
um, you know, she was the head of a department there in the South Sudan before South

818
00:56:19,216 --> 00:56:22,697
Sudan became an independent country. And then she had to relocate up

819
00:56:22,737 --> 00:56:26,319
to back to Khartoum, start again, basically all

820
00:56:26,439 --> 00:56:29,720
over and then continue to try to continue on to get her PhD. And, and

821
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,621
she did, she does have her PhD now, and she's just basically, you

822
00:56:34,421 --> 00:56:37,942
know, working her way back through the system. Now it's just, it's just, let's

823
00:56:37,962 --> 00:56:41,623
say it's just, it puts in perspective for those of us, North America

824
00:56:41,703 --> 00:56:44,983
and Australia, Western Europe, that just Yeah. Challenges she

825
00:56:45,023 --> 00:56:48,106
has to go through is just, is just amazing. And, uh,

826
00:56:48,547 --> 00:56:51,730
definitely, there's definitely an episode and I'm not gonna, I'll

827
00:56:54,573 --> 00:56:57,816
Absolutely. And, uh, so we'll put, uh, links to anything that she

828
00:56:57,836 --> 00:57:01,119
can, uh, provide to get in touch with her or staying connected with

829
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,323
her. Uh, but we'll all have her definitely back on, uh,

830
00:57:07,124 --> 00:57:10,309
Best way go to Instagram a lost shark guy also on the other

831
00:57:10,349 --> 00:57:14,414
social media is lush lost sharks and lost shark guy on Facebook

832
00:57:14,434 --> 00:57:20,420
and Instagram and X Anyway,

833
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:24,061
and please go subscribe to the podcast. Go

834
00:57:27,502 --> 00:57:30,763
Absolutely. All the links are in the show notes. You can go ahead and do that

835
00:57:30,903 --> 00:57:34,624
now. We want to thank you, Dave. And thank you, of course, Iqbal,

836
00:57:34,644 --> 00:57:38,145
for sharing that wonderful story with us. A hard story, but

837
00:57:38,525 --> 00:57:41,886
quite a provocative story. And we

838
00:57:41,926 --> 00:57:45,427
really appreciate it. So thank you so much. And thank you to everybody

839
00:57:45,507 --> 00:57:48,809
who is joining us again here on the Beyond Jaws podcast. We

840
00:57:48,849 --> 00:57:52,033
really thank you for listening each and every episode. And

841
00:57:52,253 --> 00:57:55,376
this has been an episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast from Dave and

842
00:57:55,436 --> 00:57:58,539
I. Thank you so much. Have a great day. Talk to you next time and