Technical Shark Diving and Predator Science with Dr. Yannis Papastamatiou

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We have a special episode for you today.

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We have Dr. Yannis Papa-Mustiou,

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who's on the program

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today to talk about his career

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in predatory science, shark science,

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but really focusing on predator dynamics.

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He went from growing up in the UK

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to now living in Florida

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to study predatory science.

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We're gonna talk about how

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he went from there to Athens

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to Long Beach, California to Hawaii,

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and now he's in Florida.

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It's a great story.

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I can't wait for you to hear it.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey, everybody.

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Welcome back to another exciting episode

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of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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I'm your host or co-host Andrew Lewin

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here with my co-host, Dr. David Ebert.

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Dave, this is a fun episode.

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We're really getting into the weeds of

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technical diving and

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scientific diving here.

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Something we haven't done, I don't think

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ever on this podcast,

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a really important one,

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because this is something

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that everybody asks all the time.

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Do you need a scuba diving certification

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to do this type of work?

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The type of work that that you honest

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does you do, don't you?

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Yep. Yep. Yeah.

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Most people come in there, they say,

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well, I have a certified scuba diver.

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That's that's good.

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But most of shark research

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don't really need to use it.

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Use be assertive.

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It helps, but it doesn't

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really need to be certified stuff.

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Yani does a very different.

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It's extreme technical diving.

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And we really get into

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it in this episode here.

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And I think a lot of young people will be

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interested to know just

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what's involved in it.

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It's not something you do

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over a weekend or even a week.

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It's as you'll find out, it's quite a

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lengthy procedure to get into it.

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And but he's had some amazing stories and

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experiences going all over the world,

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doing these mesophotic zones, looking at

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hammerhead sharks and and Galapagos

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sharks and all other types of sharks and

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seeing them in their environment like

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that, that few people ever will.

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So I really hope people enjoy it and

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enjoy the conversation today with with

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with Yani in terms of his his experiences

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as far as doing technical diving.

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Absolutely.

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With that said, here is the interview

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with Yannis Papas to enjoy

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and we'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Yannis.

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Welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk all things sharks?

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I'm looking forward to it.

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Thanks for having me.

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Welcome.

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Welcome to another episode

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of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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We have an outstanding researcher today.

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We have Dr. Yannis Papa Stama to you.

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I was going to work in the name there.

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He's an associate professor at Florida

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International University.

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Yannis was born and raised in London in

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the United Kingdom, but he spent his

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teenage years in Athens, Greece.

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He moved back to the United Kingdom to do

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his undergraduate in oceanography at the

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University of Southampton

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before moving to the U.S.

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to become a master's degree with Chris

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Lowe, who's been on a couple of the

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episodes of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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He then went on to the University of

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Hawaii to do his PhD.

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And then after doing a couple of post

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doctorates at the University of Florida

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and the University of Hawaii and a

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research fellowship at

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the University of St.

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Andros, he took a position at the Florida

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International University, where he's

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currently an associate professor and he

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runs the Predator

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Ecology and Conservation Lab.

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His studies on the physiology and

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behavioral ecology of marine predators

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and use the information

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for conservation efforts.

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He's an extremely skilled diver.

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He uses technical tools to study the

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ecology of mesophotic reefs using those

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areas deeper than 50 meters.

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He's extremely well published with over

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120 peer reviewed

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publications, six book chapters.

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He's a frequent peer reviewer for various

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journals and he's mentored numerous

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graduate students, including Alison

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Towner, who's also been on the podcast.

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And he's frequently on documentary

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programs such as

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Discovery Channel and Nat Geo.

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Now, top of all that, he's also a black

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belt in Brazilian jiu jitsu.

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And so so with that,

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Janis, welcome to the show.

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Thanks for having me. Yeah.

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So kind of the question

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we always start off with.

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How did you get interested

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in sharks and marine biology?

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Well, you know, I was born in in London,

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obviously fairly

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landlocked, but my father was Greek.

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So we used to go to Greece every summer.

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This is where I still lived in the UK

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and, you know, swim and snorkel a lot.

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And that's really where

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it kind of started for me.

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And then there was a couple of things

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that sort of added to my interest.

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It really got me into sharks and wanting

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to do marine biology.

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And one was actually seeing Jaws.

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So Jaws had a big positive effect on me

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in the sense that I

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was kind of intrigued.

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And I found this character Hooper, who is

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the marine biologist, kind of this nerdy

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guy, but who was basically

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one of the heroes of the film.

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And I kind of love that.

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So that that played an

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important role as well.

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And the other one was actually the Nat

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Geo documentary on sharks,

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which was from the early 80s.

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And obviously back then, there weren't

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many shark documentaries

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in fact, very, very few.

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And so this one had come

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out. I had a VHS copy of it.

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And there's one that

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Eugenie Clark was on.

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And I watched that watch that until like

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the tape was just, you know, run dry.

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And I actually got to

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just to go off on a tangent.

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I got to meet Jeannie at AES in 2003,

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where you were there two

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day first time I met you.

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And I got to tell her that story.

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And then she also has

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her kids were half Greek.

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So we had that connection as well.

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So it was really nice.

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I was able to to let her know that.

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And that, you know, that

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was a big inspiration on me.

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And so that's kind of

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that's kind of where it grew.

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And, you know, my love for not just the

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ocean, but for sharks specifically.

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And did you.

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So when you started like.

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But so by the time you were like in high

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school stuff, you kind of

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knew you were going to go off.

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You were interested in pursuing sharks.

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And I was already laser focused on that.

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That was going to be my career and

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everything was kind of set up for that.

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So I got to ask you, because I had the

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same experience when

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I was in high school.

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When you went to see your guidance

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counselor and you told him

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you were going to study sharks,

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what was the reaction you got?

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You got the look like you were crazy.

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And now I mean, that's just

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almost kind of normal, right?

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I think a lot of people, I mean, everyone

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wants to study sharks.

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But back then, it really

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was not really the case.

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You know, there was I think shark we

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could started mid 90s.

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It started so really

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hadn't started in the 80s.

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And even then it was very, very when it

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did start, it was very, very small.

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So just documentaries were

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not, you know, there weren't many.

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And so that you didn't see

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sharks from TV every day.

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It's not like it is now where you can

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always tell on the television that

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somebody's not a shark.

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Right. Right.

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If I just give a quick to you mentioned

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the Jeanie Clark National Geographic

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show, I think it came

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out about 1983 or 84.

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And I was going to say, I

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remember seeing that one myself.

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I was just starting my

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master's degree at the time.

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And if any of you have a chance to go

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find it, if you want to see a really I

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thought it was one of the

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best that geo programs on sharks.

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And I was fantastic. Yes, fantastic.

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It was fantastic.

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And she was really ahead of her time.

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So I remember very clearly they were

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interviewing her and asking her, what

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should you do if you if you're in the

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water and a shark comes across from past

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years was like, you

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don't need to do anything.

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You know, just look at it and be, you

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know, happy to see this beautiful animal,

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which again, you'd

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expect to hear that now.

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But in 1984, that was not that was not a

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common response to seeing a shark.

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So she really was ahead of her time.

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And that made an impression on him.

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And I remember thinking, well, you know,

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this if this shark expert says that then

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then yeah, well, you know, I'll I'll I'll

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push back a little on that.

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I think for a lot of people, they're

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still petrified of sharks.

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I think there's people who know sharks

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and watch those documentaries, watch

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Shark Week and listen to people like

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yourself and Dave and who know that who

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are experts in sharks

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and be like, oh, OK.

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So maybe we don't have

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to worry about too much.

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And we see more videos

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of people around sharks.

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So maybe that's it.

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But when I talk to people here in

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Ontario, they are like some people like,

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no, I'm not going in the ocean like there

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are sharks in there.

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I am not going in.

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So I think we still have a lot of work to

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do to to still change that perception.

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But definitely, you know, Eugene Clark

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was was one of those who were who started

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that movement, you know.

277
00:07:54,416 --> 00:07:55,625
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

278
00:07:55,625 --> 00:07:57,625
I was going to say on the side and maybe

279
00:07:57,625 --> 00:07:58,958
you honestly had the same experience that

280
00:07:58,958 --> 00:08:01,083
I know living here in the Monterey area,

281
00:08:01,083 --> 00:08:02,625
people that are around the I've mentioned

282
00:08:02,625 --> 00:08:04,375
before, people that live here.

283
00:08:04,708 --> 00:08:05,708
You just sort of take sharks

284
00:08:05,708 --> 00:08:06,458
as part of the environment.

285
00:08:06,625 --> 00:08:07,708
If you go surfing, you

286
00:08:07,708 --> 00:08:08,625
just don't think about it.

287
00:08:08,625 --> 00:08:10,208
But if people come over like from the Bay

288
00:08:10,208 --> 00:08:13,708
Area or from inland to the coast, then

289
00:08:13,708 --> 00:08:14,583
they're like you'd

290
00:08:14,583 --> 00:08:15,583
mention their sharks out there.

291
00:08:15,583 --> 00:08:16,208
They're terrified.

292
00:08:16,500 --> 00:08:19,041
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

293
00:08:19,041 --> 00:08:20,958
So your experience to I mean, the same

294
00:08:20,958 --> 00:08:21,833
thing with like Hawaii.

295
00:08:21,833 --> 00:08:22,916
I mean, if you if you're talking to the

296
00:08:22,916 --> 00:08:25,416
people who grow grown, I grew up there.

297
00:08:25,416 --> 00:08:26,750
So, yeah, I mean, they've always

298
00:08:26,750 --> 00:08:28,541
experienced sharks around

299
00:08:28,541 --> 00:08:29,916
them regardless of anything else.

300
00:08:29,916 --> 00:08:31,125
And that's just kind of being you know,

301
00:08:31,125 --> 00:08:32,166
if you want to surf, you're

302
00:08:32,166 --> 00:08:33,125
going to encounter sharks.

303
00:08:34,208 --> 00:08:35,916
But if you haven't experienced that

304
00:08:35,916 --> 00:08:37,500
before and you come in, then then it can

305
00:08:37,500 --> 00:08:38,833
be a very different story.

306
00:08:38,833 --> 00:08:40,583
But I think again, obviously, there is a

307
00:08:40,583 --> 00:08:41,833
lot of fear still of sharks.

308
00:08:42,083 --> 00:08:43,375
But if you think of like, you know, you

309
00:08:43,375 --> 00:08:44,791
can see the videos now of people off the

310
00:08:44,791 --> 00:08:45,708
coast of Miami and

311
00:08:45,708 --> 00:08:46,708
there's a shark in the water.

312
00:08:46,708 --> 00:08:47,750
And sometimes a big one, a big

313
00:08:47,750 --> 00:08:48,791
hammerhead, big tiger.

314
00:08:48,791 --> 00:08:49,916
People are just sitting there.

315
00:08:50,208 --> 00:08:51,416
You same as with the juvenile white

316
00:08:51,416 --> 00:08:52,666
sharks off of California.

317
00:08:52,666 --> 00:08:54,708
You have people on, you know, on paddle

318
00:08:54,708 --> 00:08:56,166
boarding or even swimming.

319
00:08:56,375 --> 00:08:57,833
And they're like, you know, they're just

320
00:08:57,833 --> 00:09:00,458
the level of fear that you would have

321
00:09:00,458 --> 00:09:03,291
seen 20, 30 years ago is not the same.

322
00:09:04,291 --> 00:09:06,666
But obviously, again, they probably never

323
00:09:06,666 --> 00:09:08,458
be a time when nobody is scared of them.

324
00:09:08,458 --> 00:09:09,708
I understand. You got to

325
00:09:09,708 --> 00:09:10,708
give them that respect, right?

326
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:12,416
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

327
00:09:12,416 --> 00:09:13,208
You can go you can go too

328
00:09:13,208 --> 00:09:14,250
far in the other direction.

329
00:09:14,583 --> 00:09:16,000
Of course. Right, right, right.

330
00:09:16,375 --> 00:09:18,833
So so you got out of so when you finished

331
00:09:18,833 --> 00:09:20,500
up, obviously, went out, went on to

332
00:09:20,500 --> 00:09:21,916
university and you picked up the

333
00:09:21,916 --> 00:09:22,833
University of Southampton.

334
00:09:23,041 --> 00:09:23,958
Is it I didn't know I

335
00:09:23,958 --> 00:09:24,875
don't know much about it.

336
00:09:25,083 --> 00:09:26,958
She shares a pretty good university for.

337
00:09:27,458 --> 00:09:30,041
Yes, Southampton has, you know, has one

338
00:09:30,041 --> 00:09:31,666
or at least did one of the largest

339
00:09:31,666 --> 00:09:33,125
oceanography centers

340
00:09:33,125 --> 00:09:35,541
in Europe at the time.

341
00:09:35,916 --> 00:09:37,416
And, you know, it's one of the top

342
00:09:37,416 --> 00:09:39,375
programs for studying oceanography.

343
00:09:40,250 --> 00:09:42,083
And it's still is kind of amazing to me

344
00:09:42,083 --> 00:09:45,041
how often I run into other

345
00:09:45,041 --> 00:09:47,500
Southampton undergraduates.

346
00:09:47,500 --> 00:09:48,833
So my friend that I did my undergraduate

347
00:09:48,833 --> 00:09:50,458
with, he's a professor at University of

348
00:09:50,458 --> 00:09:53,250
Miami, Alice, the harbor, who Harbourn is

349
00:09:53,250 --> 00:09:54,333
a coral reef ecologist.

350
00:09:54,375 --> 00:09:55,333
And the office next door to

351
00:09:55,333 --> 00:09:57,375
me was an undergrad at South.

352
00:09:57,375 --> 00:09:59,291
Oh, Charlie Hoover is who

353
00:09:59,291 --> 00:10:00,375
you may know from Australia.

354
00:10:00,583 --> 00:10:01,708
Wasn't on the show

355
00:10:01,708 --> 00:10:02,916
undergrad from Southampton.

356
00:10:03,708 --> 00:10:05,000
So there's a lot of us that

357
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,875
came from from Southampton.

358
00:10:07,416 --> 00:10:08,375
And again, I wasn't,

359
00:10:08,375 --> 00:10:09,500
you know, studying sharks.

360
00:10:09,500 --> 00:10:10,375
I actually was working more

361
00:10:10,375 --> 00:10:11,416
on deep sea invertebrates.

362
00:10:11,666 --> 00:10:13,000
But, you know, it gave me it gave me my

363
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:14,125
initial background in

364
00:10:14,125 --> 00:10:15,166
sort of marine sciences.

365
00:10:15,541 --> 00:10:16,666
Well, that's what I was going to ask.

366
00:10:16,666 --> 00:10:19,083
You know, oceanography and, you know, you

367
00:10:19,083 --> 00:10:20,250
know, studying predators as

368
00:10:20,250 --> 00:10:22,291
you do now is a lot different.

369
00:10:22,625 --> 00:10:25,500
What made you go to an oceanography

370
00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:27,500
program instead of a more

371
00:10:27,500 --> 00:10:29,041
of a marine biology program?

372
00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:31,875
Well, so my my it was oceanography with a

373
00:10:31,875 --> 00:10:33,125
minor in marine biology.

374
00:10:33,833 --> 00:10:36,000
And again, you know, at the time in the

375
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:37,958
UK, there was very little

376
00:10:37,958 --> 00:10:40,291
to no shark work going on.

377
00:10:40,291 --> 00:10:41,583
I think the only person who might have

378
00:10:41,583 --> 00:10:42,625
been doing shark work

379
00:10:42,625 --> 00:10:44,458
then was David Sims.

380
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,000
And I think it was either

381
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:47,375
maybe still a PhD student.

382
00:10:48,166 --> 00:10:49,666
So it was really not much

383
00:10:49,666 --> 00:10:50,666
was going on at the time.

384
00:10:50,666 --> 00:10:52,708
This was in the sort of mid 90s.

385
00:10:52,916 --> 00:10:54,958
Right. So there really wasn't anywhere to

386
00:10:54,958 --> 00:10:56,916
go and study sharks per se.

387
00:10:57,208 --> 00:10:58,000
But, you know, my my

388
00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:59,375
dad was a was a scientist.

389
00:10:59,375 --> 00:11:00,000
He was an engineer.

390
00:11:00,458 --> 00:11:03,125
And he was actually something which I get

391
00:11:03,125 --> 00:11:04,541
to later, which was really true.

392
00:11:04,541 --> 00:11:05,166
It's like you don't need

393
00:11:05,166 --> 00:11:06,958
to specialize at this point.

394
00:11:07,375 --> 00:11:08,875
We think getting just a

395
00:11:08,875 --> 00:11:10,041
good background in science.

396
00:11:10,041 --> 00:11:10,791
You don't have to be

397
00:11:10,791 --> 00:11:12,666
specializing in theology now.

398
00:11:12,833 --> 00:11:14,083
Just just do an undergrad

399
00:11:14,083 --> 00:11:16,458
that has a solid education.

400
00:11:17,416 --> 00:11:18,708
On the basics and that'll be

401
00:11:18,708 --> 00:11:21,083
fine before you move on up.

402
00:11:21,541 --> 00:11:23,291
You know, I just got a diverter saying

403
00:11:23,291 --> 00:11:24,458
you mentioned David Sims.

404
00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:26,041
I don't know if you knew this or not, but

405
00:11:26,041 --> 00:11:28,291
David Sims, Nick Dolby and Jim Ellis were

406
00:11:28,291 --> 00:11:29,125
all in the same lab at

407
00:11:29,125 --> 00:11:30,250
the same time together.

408
00:11:30,791 --> 00:11:32,333
I didn't know that. Yeah.

409
00:11:32,875 --> 00:11:34,333
Was it was this at Plymouth?

410
00:11:36,791 --> 00:11:37,625
Gosh, I can't remember.

411
00:11:37,625 --> 00:11:38,416
I just I don't know if

412
00:11:38,416 --> 00:11:39,416
it's Southampton or Plymouth.

413
00:11:39,625 --> 00:11:40,291
I'm not sure where.

414
00:11:41,208 --> 00:11:42,250
I know. I think David

415
00:11:42,250 --> 00:11:43,416
did his PhD at Plymouth.

416
00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:45,875
But now he's a professor at Southampton.

417
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,041
So, OK, OK, I might have back.

418
00:11:48,041 --> 00:11:49,666
Maybe I know Nick. Yeah, no, Nick.

419
00:11:49,666 --> 00:11:51,041
Yeah, no, Nick mentioned that that all

420
00:11:51,041 --> 00:11:52,500
because I know all three of those guys,

421
00:11:52,666 --> 00:11:53,875
you know, you probably know him as well.

422
00:11:54,333 --> 00:11:55,416
Those are like you talk about.

423
00:11:55,625 --> 00:11:56,708
That was pretty much, I think, the brain

424
00:11:56,708 --> 00:11:58,375
trust of shark research

425
00:11:58,375 --> 00:11:59,750
in the UK at the time.

426
00:11:59,958 --> 00:12:02,250
Yeah. Well, they'd been in pre-d who was

427
00:12:02,250 --> 00:12:03,916
the first person to put a satellite tag

428
00:12:03,916 --> 00:12:06,041
on a basking shark up in up in Scotland.

429
00:12:06,166 --> 00:12:06,958
But I don't think he was

430
00:12:06,958 --> 00:12:08,125
necessarily a shark person.

431
00:12:08,125 --> 00:12:09,708
He just, you know, I had

432
00:12:09,708 --> 00:12:11,125
done I'd done some work.

433
00:12:11,125 --> 00:12:12,500
This very sort of pioneering work,

434
00:12:12,500 --> 00:12:12,916
putting putting

435
00:12:12,916 --> 00:12:14,250
satellite tag on a basking shark.

436
00:12:14,291 --> 00:12:15,166
But he did he did a little

437
00:12:15,166 --> 00:12:16,791
bit too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

438
00:12:16,916 --> 00:12:18,250
But definitely there was not much going

439
00:12:18,250 --> 00:12:19,875
on when you were obviously a year when

440
00:12:19,875 --> 00:12:20,791
you were coming through.

441
00:12:21,458 --> 00:12:22,791
The only other guy I really knew before

442
00:12:22,791 --> 00:12:25,000
that was John Stevens back in the 70s.

443
00:12:25,291 --> 00:12:26,166
And he would he did he

444
00:12:26,166 --> 00:12:27,291
went to Plymouth as well.

445
00:12:28,750 --> 00:12:29,541
Doing his yeah. And he

446
00:12:29,541 --> 00:12:31,500
actually I believe he was in the same.

447
00:12:32,541 --> 00:12:34,750
He was in high school with Kim Holland,

448
00:12:34,958 --> 00:12:36,500
who was then my my

449
00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:38,541
adviser for my PhD in Hawaii.

450
00:12:38,791 --> 00:12:41,166
So the Brits, we are here.

451
00:12:41,208 --> 00:12:43,083
We will do come from the same region and

452
00:12:43,083 --> 00:12:44,750
just spread across the world.

453
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,500
I think I was going to say, I think one

454
00:12:46,500 --> 00:12:48,166
thing in the shark world, for those of

455
00:12:48,166 --> 00:12:49,125
you, those of us that are

456
00:12:49,125 --> 00:12:50,083
in it, you understand this.

457
00:12:50,083 --> 00:12:51,750
But those are not it's it's a kind of a

458
00:12:51,750 --> 00:12:53,958
small incestuous world where usually you

459
00:12:53,958 --> 00:12:55,500
kind of know everybody.

460
00:12:55,708 --> 00:12:57,000
You went to school with them or somewhere

461
00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:58,375
you cross paths if you're in

462
00:12:58,375 --> 00:12:59,666
the same sort of age cohort.

463
00:13:00,041 --> 00:13:02,083
It's it's pretty it's kind of cool in a

464
00:13:02,083 --> 00:13:03,666
way because you kind of grow up together

465
00:13:03,666 --> 00:13:05,791
academically or research wise.

466
00:13:06,666 --> 00:13:07,500
But it's really kind

467
00:13:07,500 --> 00:13:08,500
of it's not like you go.

468
00:13:08,541 --> 00:13:09,875
There's it's not like there's thousands

469
00:13:09,875 --> 00:13:10,708
of people at conference.

470
00:13:10,708 --> 00:13:12,000
If you get a couple

471
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,416
hundred, that's a pretty good size.

472
00:13:13,666 --> 00:13:14,958
No, it really is that

473
00:13:14,958 --> 00:13:16,208
sort of sixth degree.

474
00:13:16,208 --> 00:13:17,416
What's it called the sixth degree of

475
00:13:17,416 --> 00:13:19,958
separation or, you know, it takes very

476
00:13:19,958 --> 00:13:21,583
little before you will find somebody

477
00:13:21,583 --> 00:13:22,666
connected to

478
00:13:22,666 --> 00:13:25,333
academically as you go back in time.

479
00:13:25,333 --> 00:13:28,458
Yeah, it's interesting how we see such a,

480
00:13:28,666 --> 00:13:31,458
you know, there's such great centers in

481
00:13:31,458 --> 00:13:33,875
the UK for, you know, the undergraduate

482
00:13:33,875 --> 00:13:35,375
programs, some even

483
00:13:35,375 --> 00:13:36,708
masters and PhD programs.

484
00:13:37,208 --> 00:13:39,708
And then you see a lot of of the UK

485
00:13:39,708 --> 00:13:43,041
people to go abroad, you know, just like

486
00:13:43,041 --> 00:13:45,333
yourself going to the US, you know, and

487
00:13:45,333 --> 00:13:45,916
going into your

488
00:13:45,916 --> 00:13:47,000
master's, you went to the US.

489
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:47,833
What was the decision?

490
00:13:48,333 --> 00:13:51,125
And is this common with a lot of the UK

491
00:13:51,125 --> 00:13:53,708
people coming out of undergrad or even a

492
00:13:53,708 --> 00:13:57,208
graduate degree to go abroad and and

493
00:13:57,208 --> 00:13:59,416
learn in a different sort of institution?

494
00:14:00,125 --> 00:14:01,708
I think it's less so now because there

495
00:14:01,708 --> 00:14:03,666
are a lot more labs doing that work.

496
00:14:03,750 --> 00:14:05,750
But again, to graduate degrees at the

497
00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:08,375
time, there was there was at least to my

498
00:14:08,375 --> 00:14:09,500
knowledge, it was very little.

499
00:14:09,916 --> 00:14:11,583
This is now getting mid to late.

500
00:14:11,583 --> 00:14:13,000
We're actually late 90s.

501
00:14:13,125 --> 00:14:15,541
And so then, you know, the main place to

502
00:14:15,541 --> 00:14:20,000
go was really, you know, the US where

503
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:21,083
there was a few labs.

504
00:14:21,083 --> 00:14:23,333
I mean, South Africa, I mean, then

505
00:14:23,333 --> 00:14:25,083
Campania was there, but there wasn't too

506
00:14:25,083 --> 00:14:27,833
much outside of then doing work in South

507
00:14:27,833 --> 00:14:29,916
Africa in the 90s, at least not from a

508
00:14:29,916 --> 00:14:30,666
university standpoint.

509
00:14:31,375 --> 00:14:32,625
And even Australia, there was there was

510
00:14:32,625 --> 00:14:34,916
some, but it wasn't like now there's

511
00:14:34,916 --> 00:14:36,541
obviously lots of labs doing shark work,

512
00:14:36,541 --> 00:14:37,333
but it was still very

513
00:14:37,333 --> 00:14:40,458
limited number of labs doing work.

514
00:14:41,625 --> 00:14:43,250
My uncle was a US citizen, so he was

515
00:14:43,250 --> 00:14:44,041
living in the States.

516
00:14:44,416 --> 00:14:46,500
So, you know, that was also perhaps a

517
00:14:46,500 --> 00:14:48,416
driver why I always thought, you know, I

518
00:14:48,416 --> 00:14:51,333
would like to make the move to the US.

519
00:14:51,833 --> 00:14:53,166
How did you happen to?

520
00:14:53,166 --> 00:14:53,791
So how did you happen

521
00:14:53,791 --> 00:14:55,000
to pick up Chris's lab?

522
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,000
Was that just because it was one of the I

523
00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:57,500
mean, at the time is I know

524
00:14:57,500 --> 00:14:58,500
he took over from Don Nelson.

525
00:14:58,791 --> 00:15:00,333
But as you said, there was

526
00:15:00,333 --> 00:15:01,875
not a lot of labs doing sharks.

527
00:15:02,416 --> 00:15:03,375
No, well, the route.

528
00:15:03,375 --> 00:15:04,500
So what happened was I finished my

529
00:15:04,500 --> 00:15:06,458
undergrad and then, you know, I just

530
00:15:06,458 --> 00:15:08,833
looked around for places to try and do

531
00:15:08,833 --> 00:15:10,166
the internships, which I

532
00:15:10,166 --> 00:15:11,125
started sending out emails.

533
00:15:11,375 --> 00:15:12,833
And George Burgess wrote back to me and

534
00:15:12,833 --> 00:15:14,166
said, you know, University of Florida

535
00:15:14,166 --> 00:15:16,250
shark attack file, you know, you can come

536
00:15:16,250 --> 00:15:17,291
do an internship with me.

537
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:19,833
So my first time ever in the US was in

538
00:15:19,833 --> 00:15:20,875
Gainesville, Florida.

539
00:15:21,416 --> 00:15:22,916
And I went for a month and I worked with

540
00:15:22,916 --> 00:15:23,750
George and then I was

541
00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:24,916
looking for grad schools.

542
00:15:25,458 --> 00:15:27,625
And this was when to look for like labs,

543
00:15:27,833 --> 00:15:30,208
you had to go to the AAS handbook and

544
00:15:30,208 --> 00:15:32,583
look up and under by each person's name

545
00:15:32,583 --> 00:15:34,083
was a series of letters on

546
00:15:34,083 --> 00:15:35,416
what their interests were.

547
00:15:35,708 --> 00:15:37,916
So I went through seeing who had a B for

548
00:15:37,916 --> 00:15:40,166
behavior and there was no way to know if

549
00:15:40,166 --> 00:15:41,166
it was a grad student or

550
00:15:41,166 --> 00:15:43,083
for a faculty member or what.

551
00:15:43,083 --> 00:15:43,666
You just would go and

552
00:15:43,666 --> 00:15:44,541
see who was interested.

553
00:15:45,250 --> 00:15:46,541
And so I spent ages going through this

554
00:15:46,541 --> 00:15:47,583
handbook, seeing who, you

555
00:15:47,583 --> 00:15:49,000
know, what labs could I apply to?

556
00:15:49,625 --> 00:15:51,250
And George said, well, you know, there's

557
00:15:51,250 --> 00:15:52,500
this guy who's just

558
00:15:52,500 --> 00:15:54,750
starting a faculty position.

559
00:15:56,250 --> 00:15:58,000
And I think he's going to be a really big

560
00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:59,000
deal in the shark world.

561
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,625
He's just finished his PhD and I would

562
00:16:01,625 --> 00:16:03,833
recommend, you know, apply to him.

563
00:16:03,833 --> 00:16:04,833
And that was that was Chris Lowe.

564
00:16:05,625 --> 00:16:07,416
So I wrote to Chris and,

565
00:16:07,416 --> 00:16:08,625
you know, he just started.

566
00:16:09,833 --> 00:16:11,250
I'm not honestly I don't think I would

567
00:16:11,250 --> 00:16:14,583
have gotten in today with the level of

568
00:16:14,583 --> 00:16:16,458
competitiveness now registered by the

569
00:16:16,458 --> 00:16:17,583
time there weren't any.

570
00:16:17,625 --> 00:16:21,625
So I was like, I managed to get in and it

571
00:16:21,625 --> 00:16:23,291
took me about a year because I had to go

572
00:16:23,291 --> 00:16:24,500
back and take my GRE

573
00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:25,958
exams and all that stuff.

574
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:28,666
So I think it was like a year later I

575
00:16:28,666 --> 00:16:31,250
went to made my move to Long Beach,

576
00:16:31,250 --> 00:16:33,041
California and joined Chris's lab.

577
00:16:33,375 --> 00:16:34,916
Okay. Oh, cool. Yeah,

578
00:16:34,916 --> 00:16:36,250
that's that's really cool.

579
00:16:36,708 --> 00:16:38,375
So so you want to see what you do, what

580
00:16:38,375 --> 00:16:39,541
you do, what do you work on when you're

581
00:16:39,541 --> 00:16:40,458
at Chris's lab there?

582
00:16:40,458 --> 00:16:42,166
Did you do movement studies at the time?

583
00:16:42,333 --> 00:16:42,958
No, I didn't.

584
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:44,375
I actually ended up doing

585
00:16:44,375 --> 00:16:46,541
digestion in leopard sharks.

586
00:16:47,208 --> 00:16:49,000
And what had happened was, you know, I

587
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:50,416
really was into telemetry.

588
00:16:51,125 --> 00:16:54,125
And, you know, Chris had when I first got

589
00:16:54,125 --> 00:16:55,166
there, he was like, I want you to go and

590
00:16:55,166 --> 00:16:57,708
read all the papers on tracking, which in

591
00:16:57,708 --> 00:17:00,000
2000, this is when I moved there, I was

592
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:01,583
able to do in one semester.

593
00:17:01,833 --> 00:17:02,375
Imagine if you told

594
00:17:02,375 --> 00:17:03,250
somebody to do that now.

595
00:17:03,250 --> 00:17:03,791
Oh, my God.

596
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:04,916
I never going to happen.

597
00:17:04,916 --> 00:17:06,041
But in 2000, you could

598
00:17:06,041 --> 00:17:07,041
do that in a semester.

599
00:17:07,708 --> 00:17:09,291
And while I was doing it, you know, I

600
00:17:09,291 --> 00:17:11,041
read a lot of Don Nelson's papers.

601
00:17:11,166 --> 00:17:13,125
Don was a big, big influence on me.

602
00:17:13,458 --> 00:17:15,208
And he was speaking about all these ideas

603
00:17:15,208 --> 00:17:17,666
he'd had for transmitters that measured

604
00:17:17,666 --> 00:17:19,875
things such as pH in the stomach to look

605
00:17:19,875 --> 00:17:22,125
at feeding and video cameras, all the

606
00:17:22,125 --> 00:17:22,916
things that he didn't

607
00:17:22,916 --> 00:17:23,791
get around to doing.

608
00:17:23,791 --> 00:17:25,375
I don't think the technology was there

609
00:17:25,375 --> 00:17:26,166
for him to do it at the

610
00:17:26,166 --> 00:17:27,625
time, but the ideas were there.

611
00:17:28,375 --> 00:17:29,708
And so I started speaking to Chris about,

612
00:17:29,708 --> 00:17:32,250
you know, making this sort of pH logger

613
00:17:32,250 --> 00:17:34,250
to look at foraging

614
00:17:34,250 --> 00:17:36,000
in sharks in the wild.

615
00:17:36,541 --> 00:17:37,708
And Chris was the one who said, you know,

616
00:17:37,708 --> 00:17:39,291
you really need to learn the physiology

617
00:17:39,291 --> 00:17:41,000
of digestion if you want to do that.

618
00:17:41,250 --> 00:17:42,500
And at first, I was like, I

619
00:17:42,500 --> 00:17:43,208
don't want to do physiology.

620
00:17:43,416 --> 00:17:44,125
That doesn't sound interesting.

621
00:17:44,583 --> 00:17:46,375
But then as I started to look into it, it

622
00:17:46,375 --> 00:17:47,750
really started to like,

623
00:17:47,750 --> 00:17:49,208
you know, intrigue me.

624
00:17:49,708 --> 00:17:51,541
And I realized like that, you know,

625
00:17:51,541 --> 00:17:53,000
physiology doesn't have to be dry.

626
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:53,500
Doesn't just have to

627
00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:54,791
be about cellulobology.

628
00:17:54,791 --> 00:17:56,083
Obviously, you need to understand that

629
00:17:56,083 --> 00:17:58,375
when it can be a lot more help you

630
00:17:58,375 --> 00:18:00,291
understand the ecology and

631
00:18:00,291 --> 00:18:01,541
the behavior of the animals.

632
00:18:02,416 --> 00:18:04,083
And so I started investigating sort of

633
00:18:04,083 --> 00:18:05,458
digestion and free swimming leopard

634
00:18:05,458 --> 00:18:07,458
sharks with these tags, which I bought

635
00:18:07,458 --> 00:18:08,125
from someone who was

636
00:18:08,125 --> 00:18:09,208
using them for penguins.

637
00:18:09,791 --> 00:18:10,375
And they would measure

638
00:18:10,375 --> 00:18:11,500
acidity in the stomach.

639
00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:13,083
And I could basically measure digestion

640
00:18:13,083 --> 00:18:14,541
in a shark that was swimming around and

641
00:18:14,541 --> 00:18:16,041
then I would feed it.

642
00:18:16,375 --> 00:18:18,541
And what they also did was it introduced

643
00:18:18,541 --> 00:18:20,375
me to biologuing, which is

644
00:18:20,375 --> 00:18:21,958
now a huge part of my career.

645
00:18:22,583 --> 00:18:24,458
Biologuing wasn't a term then, you know,

646
00:18:24,458 --> 00:18:25,416
there was telemetry,

647
00:18:25,416 --> 00:18:26,833
which was using transmitters.

648
00:18:27,291 --> 00:18:28,916
But this idea of putting loggers that

649
00:18:28,916 --> 00:18:31,083
would store this data, not transmit it,

650
00:18:31,083 --> 00:18:32,291
was it didn't really have a term.

651
00:18:32,541 --> 00:18:34,458
And the only ones really doing it were

652
00:18:34,458 --> 00:18:35,791
people working with

653
00:18:35,791 --> 00:18:36,916
marine mammals or penguins.

654
00:18:38,166 --> 00:18:40,708
And so kind of just, you know, by chance,

655
00:18:40,708 --> 00:18:42,583
I started to get into the use of data

656
00:18:42,583 --> 00:18:45,541
loggers to look in digestion in sharks.

657
00:18:45,791 --> 00:18:47,291
And that really was a big

658
00:18:47,291 --> 00:18:48,750
part of my early career.

659
00:18:50,541 --> 00:18:52,458
So you went out, you did your did your

660
00:18:52,458 --> 00:18:53,666
master's there with Chris.

661
00:18:53,666 --> 00:18:56,416
And then then I assume probably because

662
00:18:56,416 --> 00:18:57,541
Chris had been out of University of

663
00:18:57,541 --> 00:18:59,375
Hawaii, that kind of opened some doors

664
00:18:59,375 --> 00:19:01,000
for you to go to University of Hawaii.

665
00:19:01,208 --> 00:19:02,875
You worked with Kim Holland, correct?

666
00:19:03,500 --> 00:19:04,375
Yeah, yeah. So Chris

667
00:19:04,375 --> 00:19:06,666
was Kim's PhD student.

668
00:19:07,625 --> 00:19:10,000
And so we had gone and done a field trip,

669
00:19:10,250 --> 00:19:12,833
like a three week trip to Hawaii when I

670
00:19:12,833 --> 00:19:16,000
was at Long Beach and I had met Kim.

671
00:19:16,541 --> 00:19:18,500
And so I wanted to do a PhD that involved

672
00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:20,125
sort of telemetry and biologuing.

673
00:19:20,166 --> 00:19:21,916
And then Kim had all these projects with

674
00:19:21,916 --> 00:19:23,500
not just sharks, but he did a lot of

675
00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:25,083
pelagic fish or tuna work.

676
00:19:25,083 --> 00:19:26,916
I wanted to get into bill fish, big

677
00:19:26,916 --> 00:19:27,916
predators basically.

678
00:19:28,583 --> 00:19:30,166
And so and I love Hawaii.

679
00:19:30,166 --> 00:19:31,500
So that seemed like an

680
00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:32,666
obvious place for me.

681
00:19:32,666 --> 00:19:34,166
And I made the move over

682
00:19:34,166 --> 00:19:35,125
to University of Hawaii.

683
00:19:35,708 --> 00:19:37,541
OK, OK. And how that how

684
00:19:37,541 --> 00:19:39,500
they go with would you work on?

685
00:19:40,083 --> 00:19:41,666
Yeah, so then my PhD was

686
00:19:41,666 --> 00:19:42,666
on black-ticked reef sharks.

687
00:19:42,916 --> 00:19:44,666
And I continued the work I was doing with

688
00:19:44,666 --> 00:19:45,916
biologuing, looking at

689
00:19:45,916 --> 00:19:47,250
digestion in this species.

690
00:19:47,291 --> 00:19:48,791
The thing that was great, I was at the

691
00:19:48,791 --> 00:19:50,875
Hawaii to marine biology and they had

692
00:19:50,875 --> 00:19:53,125
captive shark adult sharks adult

693
00:19:53,125 --> 00:19:54,041
black-ticked reef sharks.

694
00:19:54,041 --> 00:19:55,416
So I could do all these experiments with

695
00:19:55,416 --> 00:19:56,708
these captive sharks, you

696
00:19:56,708 --> 00:19:58,250
know, on on my doorstep.

697
00:19:58,250 --> 00:19:59,500
When I was at Long Beach, I had to

698
00:19:59,500 --> 00:20:01,125
actually do the experiments in the

699
00:20:01,125 --> 00:20:03,083
aquarium, the Long Beach Aquarium,

700
00:20:03,083 --> 00:20:04,166
because we didn't have the

701
00:20:04,166 --> 00:20:05,416
facilities for adult sharks.

702
00:20:05,416 --> 00:20:07,166
But but at HIV, they had these sharks.

703
00:20:07,833 --> 00:20:09,541
And then what I also did, I actually kept

704
00:20:09,541 --> 00:20:10,583
on working with Chris.

705
00:20:11,125 --> 00:20:13,166
He introduced me to some colleagues and

706
00:20:13,166 --> 00:20:15,000
we started working at Palmyra Atoll.

707
00:20:15,208 --> 00:20:16,416
And Palmyra is this

708
00:20:16,416 --> 00:20:18,458
uninhabited at on the central Pacific.

709
00:20:19,375 --> 00:20:21,375
It was a Navy base in

710
00:20:21,375 --> 00:20:22,250
June, World War Two.

711
00:20:22,458 --> 00:20:24,416
And so the US Navy were kind of gearing

712
00:20:24,416 --> 00:20:25,500
up for this big fight.

713
00:20:25,875 --> 00:20:27,500
They thought the Japanese were going to

714
00:20:27,500 --> 00:20:28,583
be coming there to invade.

715
00:20:29,041 --> 00:20:31,666
And so they had like thousands of service

716
00:20:31,666 --> 00:20:33,958
men and women on this atoll.

717
00:20:34,708 --> 00:20:35,833
But the fight never happened.

718
00:20:36,416 --> 00:20:37,750
And so then they just got up and left.

719
00:20:38,166 --> 00:20:39,666
So Palmyra is like this sort of

720
00:20:39,666 --> 00:20:41,583
quintessential tropical atoll.

721
00:20:41,916 --> 00:20:44,833
And so it's just a uninhabited that time

722
00:20:44,833 --> 00:20:45,958
is just starting to claim.

723
00:20:45,958 --> 00:20:47,125
So you have all these sort of World War

724
00:20:47,125 --> 00:20:48,291
Two bunkers on the beach.

725
00:20:48,291 --> 00:20:50,000
They're just sinking into the sand, you

726
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:50,791
know, in the lagoons.

727
00:20:50,791 --> 00:20:51,750
You can see army jeeps.

728
00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:52,583
There's still ammunition

729
00:20:52,583 --> 00:20:54,000
on some of the islands.

730
00:20:54,791 --> 00:20:56,583
And it's also been a US federal wildlife

731
00:20:56,583 --> 00:20:59,166
refuge since 2001, I think, or 2003.

732
00:20:59,708 --> 00:21:01,583
Either way, because it's very remote, it

733
00:21:01,583 --> 00:21:02,375
has a fish and

734
00:21:02,375 --> 00:21:04,583
wildlife officers based there.

735
00:21:04,833 --> 00:21:06,541
The Nature Conservancy runs the island.

736
00:21:07,166 --> 00:21:09,500
So because it's remote and protected, it

737
00:21:09,500 --> 00:21:10,208
has a lot of sharks.

738
00:21:10,416 --> 00:21:11,208
You know, has very

739
00:21:11,208 --> 00:21:12,083
healthy shark populations.

740
00:21:12,291 --> 00:21:13,583
You can only get there with a permit.

741
00:21:13,583 --> 00:21:14,666
You certainly can't fish there.

742
00:21:15,208 --> 00:21:16,916
So you have huge populations of sharks,

743
00:21:17,500 --> 00:21:18,416
especially blacked reef sharks.

744
00:21:18,625 --> 00:21:20,000
So then I started to do my sort of field

745
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,250
work looking at the movements and ecology

746
00:21:22,250 --> 00:21:24,000
and foraging ecology of blacked reef

747
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,500
sharks at Palmyra and then tying that in

748
00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:28,000
with what I was learning from, you know,

749
00:21:28,208 --> 00:21:29,083
digestive studies and

750
00:21:29,083 --> 00:21:31,333
captivity back back on a while.

751
00:21:31,916 --> 00:21:34,458
So when you're doing all that, you're

752
00:21:34,458 --> 00:21:35,708
doing at this point, you're doing a lot

753
00:21:35,708 --> 00:21:36,958
of diving in your career.

754
00:21:37,166 --> 00:21:37,833
You're really starting

755
00:21:37,833 --> 00:21:38,750
to get into the diving.

756
00:22:03,583 --> 00:22:03,625
Yes, I started, you know, I actually had been a diving
instructor before I went to grad school.

757
00:22:03,625 --> 00:22:03,750
But I had a lot of
fun with it.

758
00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:05,083
I was a little buoy with kilometers of

759
00:22:05,083 --> 00:22:07,291
chain, just offshore and

760
00:22:07,291 --> 00:22:08,791
they aggregate pelagic fishes.

761
00:22:09,166 --> 00:22:10,666
So there's a lot of sort of tracking work

762
00:22:10,666 --> 00:22:13,666
looking at whether tuners and billfish

763
00:22:13,666 --> 00:22:15,583
are using these these fads.

764
00:22:16,791 --> 00:22:18,208
And we would dive on them a lot, which I

765
00:22:18,208 --> 00:22:19,666
absolutely love because, you know, you

766
00:22:19,666 --> 00:22:21,041
could sometimes have huge schools of

767
00:22:21,041 --> 00:22:23,041
dolphin fish, huge schools of tuna.

768
00:22:23,458 --> 00:22:24,666
Sometimes a billfish.

769
00:22:26,041 --> 00:22:27,500
occasional oceanic white dip.

770
00:22:28,166 --> 00:22:30,208
So I was doing a lot of diving then,

771
00:22:30,458 --> 00:22:31,708
still sort of involved with

772
00:22:31,708 --> 00:22:33,958
training for scientific diving.

773
00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:35,625
And that was also in

774
00:22:35,625 --> 00:22:36,875
Hawaii when I started to get

775
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:38,333
into technical diving.

776
00:22:39,125 --> 00:22:40,333
Yeah, I was gonna say,

777
00:22:40,333 --> 00:22:41,083
because you do a lot of

778
00:22:41,083 --> 00:22:44,041
really extreme technical type

779
00:22:44,041 --> 00:22:46,583
of diving, which you go down over,

780
00:22:46,666 --> 00:22:48,541
obviously over 50 meters and stuff.

781
00:22:48,833 --> 00:22:50,500
Can you talk a little bit about that?

782
00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:50,958
Because there's a term

783
00:22:50,958 --> 00:22:52,208
people hear a lot about,

784
00:22:52,208 --> 00:22:53,666
but I don't know if it's like, how did

785
00:22:53,666 --> 00:22:54,750
you prepare for that?

786
00:22:54,791 --> 00:22:55,708
How did you obviously

787
00:22:55,708 --> 00:22:57,583
you've developed your skills

788
00:22:57,833 --> 00:22:59,833
as just diving and with your dive

789
00:22:59,833 --> 00:23:00,583
instructor and stuff,

790
00:23:00,583 --> 00:23:01,958
but how did you develop the

791
00:23:01,958 --> 00:23:03,375
skills to go to that next level?

792
00:23:04,333 --> 00:23:05,875
Yes, I had no interest in

793
00:23:05,875 --> 00:23:06,916
doing that, to be honest.

794
00:23:06,916 --> 00:23:08,250
Like I love diving, but I was like,

795
00:23:08,250 --> 00:23:09,041
you know, technical diving,

796
00:23:09,041 --> 00:23:09,708
it looks like it's

797
00:23:09,708 --> 00:23:11,375
carrying a lot of stuff.

798
00:23:11,625 --> 00:23:13,375
And for the audience who are

799
00:23:13,375 --> 00:23:14,541
not familiar with that term,

800
00:23:14,541 --> 00:23:15,916
it basically means if you

801
00:23:15,916 --> 00:23:17,666
are diving beyond recreational

802
00:23:17,875 --> 00:23:18,916
limits, so that could be

803
00:23:18,916 --> 00:23:20,708
diving below 50 meters,

804
00:23:21,416 --> 00:23:22,041
where you're gonna have

805
00:23:22,041 --> 00:23:23,250
to breathe different gases,

806
00:23:23,333 --> 00:23:24,583
you're gonna have decompression.

807
00:23:25,125 --> 00:23:26,750
It could be, you know, going in an

808
00:23:26,750 --> 00:23:27,750
overhead environment,

809
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,541
cave diving, rec penetration,

810
00:23:29,541 --> 00:23:30,041
that would all be

811
00:23:30,041 --> 00:23:31,416
classified as technical diving,

812
00:23:31,416 --> 00:23:33,333
things that recreational divers can't do.

813
00:23:34,208 --> 00:23:36,583
And the reason I got into it was actually

814
00:23:36,583 --> 00:23:37,416
there was a presentation

815
00:23:37,666 --> 00:23:38,625
in Hawaii when I first

816
00:23:38,625 --> 00:23:41,125
visited by a guy called Rich Pyle,

817
00:23:41,333 --> 00:23:41,666
who was Nick

818
00:23:41,666 --> 00:23:43,333
Theologist at the Bishop Museum.

819
00:23:43,333 --> 00:23:43,750
He was actually doing

820
00:23:43,750 --> 00:23:44,750
his PhD at the time.

821
00:23:46,083 --> 00:23:48,583
And he was the first person using

822
00:23:48,583 --> 00:23:50,916
rebreathers to look at fish communities

823
00:23:51,458 --> 00:23:52,500
at depths of about

824
00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:55,500
100 to 120, 130 meters.

825
00:23:56,125 --> 00:23:58,458
And he was essentially, you know, almost

826
00:23:58,458 --> 00:24:00,125
self-taught with these rebreathers,

827
00:24:00,125 --> 00:24:01,458
and he would dive by himself, because no

828
00:24:01,458 --> 00:24:02,208
one else was doing that.

829
00:24:02,208 --> 00:24:03,625
He would literally dive by himself and he

830
00:24:03,625 --> 00:24:05,583
would find all these new species of fish

831
00:24:05,708 --> 00:24:07,333
because he was the only person doing it.

832
00:24:07,708 --> 00:24:09,875
And he gave this talk and

833
00:24:09,875 --> 00:24:11,208
he had this video of like,

834
00:24:11,583 --> 00:24:13,541
I think it was silver tip sharks at 400

835
00:24:13,541 --> 00:24:15,000
feet on this beautiful reef.

836
00:24:15,458 --> 00:24:16,833
And I just, I saw that and I

837
00:24:16,833 --> 00:24:18,125
was like, OK, that was cool.

838
00:24:18,708 --> 00:24:21,833
And the exploration side of things like,

839
00:24:21,833 --> 00:24:23,041
you know, it's very clear water,

840
00:24:23,041 --> 00:24:24,708
but there's a gloominess. It looks like

841
00:24:24,708 --> 00:24:26,208
it looks like the best

842
00:24:26,208 --> 00:24:27,083
way I can describe it.

843
00:24:27,750 --> 00:24:29,666
And that was I was like, OK, you know, I

844
00:24:29,666 --> 00:24:30,916
know that feeling of you kind

845
00:24:30,916 --> 00:24:32,458
of you get to a certain depth

846
00:24:32,458 --> 00:24:33,291
and you're told you can't

847
00:24:33,291 --> 00:24:34,333
go any deeper than that.

848
00:24:34,333 --> 00:24:35,625
And you look down, you're like, you know,

849
00:24:35,625 --> 00:24:36,708
I really want to go a

850
00:24:36,708 --> 00:24:37,916
little bit deeper and explore.

851
00:24:38,750 --> 00:24:40,916
So I was at the right place at the right

852
00:24:40,916 --> 00:24:42,625
time because University of Hawaii's

853
00:24:42,625 --> 00:24:44,416
dive safety officer was trying to build a

854
00:24:44,416 --> 00:24:47,541
technical diving team to start, you know,

855
00:24:47,958 --> 00:24:49,208
exploring mesophotic

856
00:24:49,208 --> 00:24:50,208
reefs, as they're called.

857
00:24:50,208 --> 00:24:51,416
So mesophotic just a basic

858
00:24:51,416 --> 00:24:53,291
coral reefs at a below 50 meters.

859
00:24:54,208 --> 00:24:57,166
And so I started the training for open

860
00:24:57,166 --> 00:24:58,250
circuit mixed gases.

861
00:24:58,458 --> 00:25:00,125
So we actually have mixes with helium in

862
00:25:00,125 --> 00:25:01,916
there to deal with the sort of narcosis

863
00:25:01,916 --> 00:25:02,833
that you would get from

864
00:25:02,833 --> 00:25:04,166
breathing nitrogen at depth.

865
00:25:04,750 --> 00:25:06,166
And it was a long process. I think it

866
00:25:06,166 --> 00:25:07,875
took like one and a half to two years

867
00:25:07,875 --> 00:25:08,791
before, you know, we

868
00:25:08,791 --> 00:25:10,000
were kind of fully certified

869
00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:12,125
trimix divers with open

870
00:25:12,125 --> 00:25:14,375
circuit and it was great.

871
00:25:14,375 --> 00:25:15,500
I mean, we used to go and do these

872
00:25:15,500 --> 00:25:17,083
training exploratory dives.

873
00:25:17,083 --> 00:25:18,625
We were checking out, you know, unknown

874
00:25:18,625 --> 00:25:21,041
wrecks at 300 feet, taking scooters and

875
00:25:21,041 --> 00:25:23,000
then scootering back up the slopes.

876
00:25:23,500 --> 00:25:23,958
You know, you would

877
00:25:23,958 --> 00:25:25,166
do these free ascents.

878
00:25:25,166 --> 00:25:27,208
You would drop down 300 feet into the

879
00:25:27,208 --> 00:25:28,583
blue, hit the bottom.

880
00:25:28,583 --> 00:25:29,833
There'd be this unknown wreck and then

881
00:25:29,833 --> 00:25:30,750
you scoot up the reef

882
00:25:30,750 --> 00:25:31,750
and do decompression.

883
00:25:32,541 --> 00:25:33,833
And it was it was fantastic.

884
00:25:34,708 --> 00:25:37,166
And then Noah, because we were doing a

885
00:25:37,166 --> 00:25:38,416
lot of work in the northwestern Hawaiian

886
00:25:38,416 --> 00:25:40,500
islands, which are the uninhabited

887
00:25:40,500 --> 00:25:42,708
islands sort of north of Kauai.

888
00:25:43,083 --> 00:25:45,083
And they're basically atolls. And most of

889
00:25:45,083 --> 00:25:46,375
them have always been uninhabited.

890
00:25:46,875 --> 00:25:49,458
And it's also a U.S. monument. So also

891
00:25:49,458 --> 00:25:50,375
very protected, very

892
00:25:50,375 --> 00:25:51,666
remote, lots of predators.

893
00:25:52,291 --> 00:25:54,458
So I was really working with Carmaya at

894
00:25:54,458 --> 00:25:55,291
University of Hawaii.

895
00:25:55,875 --> 00:25:58,541
And we were tracking sharks and reef

896
00:25:58,541 --> 00:26:01,416
fishes along the Hawaiian Island chain.

897
00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:02,833
And each summer, Noah would run these

898
00:26:02,833 --> 00:26:05,500
cruises and we would go and we'd stop off

899
00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:08,208
every single atoll of the chain and we

900
00:26:08,208 --> 00:26:09,750
would go and tag fish and

901
00:26:09,750 --> 00:26:11,041
put receivers down and dive.

902
00:26:11,041 --> 00:26:12,000
It was all shallow work.

903
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,083
And then they started to get interested

904
00:26:14,083 --> 00:26:16,250
in exploring the mesophotic reefs.

905
00:26:17,041 --> 00:26:18,958
And so when they really put together, you

906
00:26:18,958 --> 00:26:21,833
know, the sort of full on technical

907
00:26:21,833 --> 00:26:24,333
diving team to go in, I think it was

908
00:26:24,333 --> 00:26:26,166
2009, there weren't that

909
00:26:26,166 --> 00:26:28,625
many scientists certified.

910
00:26:29,500 --> 00:26:30,208
And so there was a

911
00:26:30,208 --> 00:26:31,500
few. There was six of us.

912
00:26:31,500 --> 00:26:33,708
I think there was like three or four Noah

913
00:26:33,708 --> 00:26:36,000
divers, Richard Pyle, who was the whole

914
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,166
reason I'd gone into it.

915
00:26:37,166 --> 00:26:39,083
And then and then I was fortunate to also

916
00:26:39,083 --> 00:26:41,166
go myself and join that team.

917
00:26:41,875 --> 00:26:44,750
And so that's really where my my great

918
00:26:44,750 --> 00:26:47,708
interest in mesophotic reefs came from.

919
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,333
And then as I progressed, you know, I

920
00:26:50,333 --> 00:26:52,125
switched over eventually to rebreathers,

921
00:26:52,125 --> 00:26:54,000
which are diving units where you

922
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,291
recirculate your gas.

923
00:26:55,958 --> 00:26:57,916
And so that means it's kind of silent

924
00:26:57,916 --> 00:26:59,625
because there's no bubbles and it's also

925
00:26:59,625 --> 00:27:01,166
very, very efficient because you're

926
00:27:01,166 --> 00:27:03,083
reusing oxygen that you're breathing out.

927
00:27:03,083 --> 00:27:05,000
So that means that, you know, what you

928
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,791
would need many, many tanks to dive deep

929
00:27:07,791 --> 00:27:08,833
with open circuit with a

930
00:27:08,833 --> 00:27:09,708
closed circuit, rebreather.

931
00:27:09,708 --> 00:27:12,541
You can just take a few small tanks and

932
00:27:12,541 --> 00:27:13,791
those will last you hours.

933
00:27:14,708 --> 00:27:16,375
So then I eventually had to work my way

934
00:27:16,375 --> 00:27:19,250
back up with rebreathers to also then get

935
00:27:19,250 --> 00:27:21,791
to those depths using that tool.

936
00:27:22,375 --> 00:27:23,791
How long did it take you for the

937
00:27:23,791 --> 00:27:26,000
certification for the mixed

938
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,583
gas and then the rebreathers?

939
00:27:28,625 --> 00:27:30,541
So the mixed gas, again, you know,

940
00:27:30,541 --> 00:27:31,625
there's a series of stages.

941
00:27:32,208 --> 00:27:33,750
So you can you know, you start off with,

942
00:27:33,750 --> 00:27:35,750
you know, advanced nitrox and then you

943
00:27:35,750 --> 00:27:37,541
get some experience there and then you go

944
00:27:37,541 --> 00:27:40,375
to technical nitrox and then you get some

945
00:27:40,375 --> 00:27:41,000
experience there and

946
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:42,333
then you go on to try.

947
00:27:42,333 --> 00:27:43,541
So the way with technical

948
00:27:43,541 --> 00:27:45,000
diving is often sequential.

949
00:27:45,291 --> 00:27:47,291
There's a series of qualification courses

950
00:27:47,291 --> 00:27:50,541
and in between you get a certain, you

951
00:27:50,541 --> 00:27:51,916
know, you get experience in a certain

952
00:27:51,916 --> 00:27:54,083
number of hours before you move on up.

953
00:27:54,083 --> 00:27:54,583
Gotcha. With the

954
00:27:54,583 --> 00:27:56,041
rebreathers, it's even more specific.

955
00:27:56,458 --> 00:27:58,708
Like once to take the initial course for

956
00:27:58,708 --> 00:28:00,125
the rebreather course is probably a week

957
00:28:00,125 --> 00:28:01,791
and then you'll be a certified rebreather

958
00:28:01,791 --> 00:28:04,125
diver diving to recreational dive limits.

959
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,250
To move on to mixed gases, you need 50 to

960
00:28:07,250 --> 00:28:09,666
100 hours on that unit before you can

961
00:28:09,666 --> 00:28:11,000
then take the course.

962
00:28:11,666 --> 00:28:13,666
Gotcha. Same with, you know, when I moved

963
00:28:13,666 --> 00:28:14,875
to University of Florida,

964
00:28:15,166 --> 00:28:16,291
I was kind of landlocked.

965
00:28:16,958 --> 00:28:19,166
And so again, never had any interest

966
00:28:19,166 --> 00:28:22,416
before, but I got into cave diving there.

967
00:28:23,291 --> 00:28:24,500
And same thing. It's a series of

968
00:28:24,500 --> 00:28:26,375
sequential courses and then you get

969
00:28:26,375 --> 00:28:28,458
experience before you then move on to the

970
00:28:28,458 --> 00:28:30,541
next course until you end up with a fully

971
00:28:30,541 --> 00:28:32,041
engaged four cave diver.

972
00:28:32,750 --> 00:28:34,666
Gotcha. So when you when you're doing

973
00:28:34,666 --> 00:28:36,083
this, like, for example, if you're

974
00:28:36,083 --> 00:28:38,500
diving, just take us on an example, like,

975
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:40,041
say you're diving to

976
00:28:40,041 --> 00:28:40,791
100 meters, for example,

977
00:28:41,500 --> 00:28:45,208
like how how long can you spend down

978
00:28:45,208 --> 00:28:46,750
there and what's like the decompression

979
00:28:46,750 --> 00:28:48,666
time and all of that?

980
00:28:48,666 --> 00:28:50,208
Like what's what's sort of

981
00:28:50,208 --> 00:28:52,083
the process of that? Yeah.

982
00:28:52,083 --> 00:28:53,958
So the 100 meter dives I

983
00:28:53,958 --> 00:28:55,291
was doing open circuit.

984
00:28:55,291 --> 00:28:58,333
So those tend to be pretty short, like

985
00:28:58,333 --> 00:29:00,500
10, 15 minutes or so.

986
00:29:00,750 --> 00:29:02,500
And then we would have like an hour and a

987
00:29:02,500 --> 00:29:05,625
half of decompression with rebreathers.

988
00:29:05,875 --> 00:29:08,583
You know, we can do much longer.

989
00:29:09,250 --> 00:29:10,541
Generally, the rebreathers, I work

990
00:29:10,541 --> 00:29:13,375
between 60, 75, maybe 80 meters.

991
00:29:13,375 --> 00:29:15,333
I don't go. I at this point, I haven't

992
00:29:15,333 --> 00:29:17,750
gone to 100 meters or below that.

993
00:29:18,625 --> 00:29:19,916
And then, you know, we may spend like an

994
00:29:19,916 --> 00:29:22,875
hour at 60 meters and you would have two

995
00:29:22,875 --> 00:29:24,416
to three hours of decompression.

996
00:29:25,208 --> 00:29:26,416
And again, as long as your rebreather

997
00:29:26,416 --> 00:29:29,000
doesn't fail, that's no problem at all.

998
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,458
And you can get with by with the gas.

999
00:29:31,250 --> 00:29:33,375
But that's why. Well, the reason I said

1000
00:29:33,375 --> 00:29:35,125
that is because that's why

1001
00:29:35,125 --> 00:29:36,958
we do have to carry all these.

1002
00:29:36,958 --> 00:29:38,750
You'll see when I do those dives, I still

1003
00:29:38,750 --> 00:29:40,708
have open circuit bottles clipped to me.

1004
00:29:41,250 --> 00:29:43,833
So although I don't I've only ever had to

1005
00:29:43,833 --> 00:29:45,458
bail out once for the most

1006
00:29:45,458 --> 00:29:46,500
part, they're not getting used.

1007
00:29:46,750 --> 00:29:48,041
But you have to have them there because

1008
00:29:48,041 --> 00:29:50,041
I'm like with open circuit, there's a

1009
00:29:50,041 --> 00:29:51,208
couple of things with a rebreather.

1010
00:29:51,208 --> 00:29:54,125
If they go wrong, you cannot use that

1011
00:29:54,125 --> 00:29:55,375
unit and you have to go off it.

1012
00:29:55,375 --> 00:29:56,833
So you have to have what we call bailout

1013
00:29:56,833 --> 00:29:59,208
gas so that in an emergency, you can you

1014
00:29:59,208 --> 00:30:00,625
can basically bail out.

1015
00:30:00,625 --> 00:30:02,125
And that's why we do carry those tanks.

1016
00:30:02,916 --> 00:30:04,125
When you're when you talk about

1017
00:30:04,125 --> 00:30:06,916
decompression, do you do you come up like

1018
00:30:06,916 --> 00:30:08,750
I know, like when I'm doing like diving,

1019
00:30:08,750 --> 00:30:10,416
you come up to hang out at like three

1020
00:30:10,416 --> 00:30:12,000
meters, got in for so long

1021
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:13,500
or for an hour and a half.

1022
00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:14,750
But can you work your way up there?

1023
00:30:15,291 --> 00:30:16,791
You work it out so you can like work it

1024
00:30:16,791 --> 00:30:18,000
at do some some of

1025
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:19,666
that depth where you're.

1026
00:30:19,666 --> 00:30:21,875
Yes. So so now, you know, there's various

1027
00:30:21,875 --> 00:30:23,416
decompression models.

1028
00:30:23,666 --> 00:30:25,041
The old ones used to be they would just

1029
00:30:25,041 --> 00:30:28,208
rocket you up to like 10 meters and then

1030
00:30:28,208 --> 00:30:29,958
you have like two hours at 10 meters.

1031
00:30:30,083 --> 00:30:32,333
But that rocketing it up is not good.

1032
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,875
So the models that we have now will have

1033
00:30:35,875 --> 00:30:37,041
you start your stops

1034
00:30:37,041 --> 00:30:39,375
generally much deeper than that.

1035
00:30:40,041 --> 00:30:41,333
So the way you would do it is your

1036
00:30:41,333 --> 00:30:44,125
initial stops will be deep, but short,

1037
00:30:44,458 --> 00:30:45,708
like one or two minutes.

1038
00:30:45,708 --> 00:30:46,875
And you basically can think of it.

1039
00:30:46,875 --> 00:30:49,083
You're going to start, you know, let's

1040
00:30:49,083 --> 00:30:51,375
say if I'm doing a dive to 200 feet,

1041
00:30:52,083 --> 00:30:53,500
probably my first stops are

1042
00:30:53,500 --> 00:30:56,458
starting at like 110, 100 feet.

1043
00:30:56,791 --> 00:30:58,541
And then it's going to be approximately,

1044
00:30:58,958 --> 00:31:01,833
you know, you might initially have quite

1045
00:31:01,833 --> 00:31:04,500
big jumps like 150 and then 100.

1046
00:31:04,500 --> 00:31:05,833
And then it's going to be every 10 feet.

1047
00:31:06,375 --> 00:31:07,458
And as you're getting progressively

1048
00:31:07,458 --> 00:31:08,500
shallower, they're getting

1049
00:31:08,500 --> 00:31:09,625
longer and longer and longer.

1050
00:31:10,125 --> 00:31:11,625
So the longest stop

1051
00:31:11,625 --> 00:31:13,166
would be at like six meters.

1052
00:31:14,083 --> 00:31:15,875
But now, if you're on the way up, do you

1053
00:31:15,875 --> 00:31:17,583
try to do you try to work it out to your

1054
00:31:17,583 --> 00:31:20,375
like at a certain depth on the reef or

1055
00:31:20,375 --> 00:31:21,916
you just hang it out in the open ocean?

1056
00:31:22,375 --> 00:31:23,416
It completely depends.

1057
00:31:23,875 --> 00:31:25,708
So the way we would do it in Hawaii was

1058
00:31:25,708 --> 00:31:27,791
we would have to do because you have to

1059
00:31:27,791 --> 00:31:29,000
go out a long way to get

1060
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:29,875
to the mesophonic reef.

1061
00:31:30,375 --> 00:31:32,208
So you do a free descent, which also

1062
00:31:32,208 --> 00:31:33,583
means you have to do a free ascent.

1063
00:31:34,041 --> 00:31:35,458
So what we would do is, you know,

1064
00:31:35,666 --> 00:31:39,333
sometimes 200 feet fire a flow on a reel

1065
00:31:39,333 --> 00:31:41,500
and you fire it up to the surface and

1066
00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:42,458
then you just start ascending.

1067
00:31:42,583 --> 00:31:43,291
So you're doing a

1068
00:31:43,291 --> 00:31:44,541
decompression in midwater.

1069
00:31:44,708 --> 00:31:46,416
So you have to really have your buoyancy

1070
00:31:46,416 --> 00:31:47,041
down because you

1071
00:31:47,041 --> 00:31:48,166
basically have to do these stops.

1072
00:31:48,750 --> 00:31:50,541
The only reference you've got is real.

1073
00:31:50,666 --> 00:31:53,291
And that's it. And so then the floats on

1074
00:31:53,291 --> 00:31:55,708
the surface and the boats, the surface

1075
00:31:55,708 --> 00:31:56,416
boat will just be

1076
00:31:56,416 --> 00:31:58,166
following that surface flow.

1077
00:31:58,500 --> 00:31:59,458
And then hopefully they'll

1078
00:31:59,458 --> 00:32:01,250
be there when you get up.

1079
00:32:02,416 --> 00:32:04,708
It, you know, the nicer way to do it,

1080
00:32:04,708 --> 00:32:06,083
which is, for example, French Polynesia.

1081
00:32:06,333 --> 00:32:08,000
Now, the way we can do it is because you

1082
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,250
have these steep slopes.

1083
00:32:10,208 --> 00:32:12,000
You can just drop down and then you can

1084
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,875
just do your decompression up the slope.

1085
00:32:14,208 --> 00:32:16,875
So in Rangi Raurav project now, you know,

1086
00:32:17,166 --> 00:32:18,166
with great hammerheads,

1087
00:32:18,666 --> 00:32:20,333
we'll go down to 200 feet.

1088
00:32:20,541 --> 00:32:21,458
And then I don't even

1089
00:32:21,458 --> 00:32:22,541
need the boat to pick me up.

1090
00:32:22,541 --> 00:32:24,291
I can end my decompression underneath the

1091
00:32:24,291 --> 00:32:25,958
dock where the hotel is.

1092
00:32:26,791 --> 00:32:28,041
Oh, wow. I just find out.

1093
00:32:28,333 --> 00:32:30,000
Yeah. So that's much nicer and safer

1094
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:31,666
because you're just coming up the reef.

1095
00:32:31,666 --> 00:32:32,708
There's more stuff to see.

1096
00:32:32,708 --> 00:32:34,000
Bluewater depression is

1097
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,541
it can be pretty boring.

1098
00:32:35,916 --> 00:32:37,291
And then so it's just it's just more

1099
00:32:37,291 --> 00:32:38,416
stressful because if something goes

1100
00:32:38,416 --> 00:32:39,666
wrong, it's quite a

1101
00:32:39,666 --> 00:32:40,541
bit harder to deal with.

1102
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,791
Right. And a lot of times you're diving

1103
00:32:42,791 --> 00:32:44,541
in areas that are somewhat remote.

1104
00:32:44,541 --> 00:32:46,250
So it's not like you can get to a chamber

1105
00:32:46,250 --> 00:32:48,000
if there's if something goes really bad.

1106
00:32:48,333 --> 00:32:49,750
Yeah, we try.

1107
00:32:50,208 --> 00:32:52,500
So, you know, like Noah was probably the

1108
00:32:52,500 --> 00:32:54,958
most remote places we were diving and the

1109
00:32:54,958 --> 00:32:56,250
boat there actually

1110
00:32:56,250 --> 00:32:57,625
carried a chamber on board.

1111
00:32:58,833 --> 00:33:01,875
And so for the most part, you try to have

1112
00:33:01,875 --> 00:33:03,458
a chamber within two hours.

1113
00:33:04,750 --> 00:33:06,208
You know, other times

1114
00:33:06,208 --> 00:33:07,166
we're going really remote.

1115
00:33:07,375 --> 00:33:08,750
Like I've been a few times with

1116
00:33:08,750 --> 00:33:10,666
California Academy of Sciences has a

1117
00:33:10,666 --> 00:33:12,958
really great mesophotic team.

1118
00:33:12,958 --> 00:33:14,500
And they work much deeper than me.

1119
00:33:14,500 --> 00:33:15,708
They're working down to 500 feet.

1120
00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:16,791
So they're doing five

1121
00:33:16,791 --> 00:33:18,250
hours, five hour dives.

1122
00:33:19,333 --> 00:33:20,666
When they go to these remote spots, they

1123
00:33:20,666 --> 00:33:25,708
actually bring a a transportable chamber.

1124
00:33:25,958 --> 00:33:27,125
You can actually have these these

1125
00:33:27,125 --> 00:33:28,625
chambers that they're only enough for one

1126
00:33:28,625 --> 00:33:30,416
person that you basically unpack and then

1127
00:33:30,416 --> 00:33:31,250
you fill up and then but

1128
00:33:31,250 --> 00:33:32,666
they will they will pressurize.

1129
00:33:33,541 --> 00:33:35,375
So there is almost always a chamber

1130
00:33:35,375 --> 00:33:36,333
within a couple of

1131
00:33:36,333 --> 00:33:37,458
hours of the dive site.

1132
00:33:37,916 --> 00:33:38,375
Gotcha.

1133
00:33:38,750 --> 00:33:40,583
Now, when you're diving on these things,

1134
00:33:40,583 --> 00:33:42,500
you're working on large predators,

1135
00:33:42,500 --> 00:33:45,208
typically sharks and other other species.

1136
00:33:45,375 --> 00:33:48,416
What kind of what kind of data

1137
00:33:48,416 --> 00:33:50,250
information can you collect when you're

1138
00:33:50,250 --> 00:33:52,625
down there for even if it's for 20

1139
00:33:52,625 --> 00:33:54,041
minutes or some kind of data?

1140
00:33:54,541 --> 00:33:55,416
Yeah, there's been a variety.

1141
00:33:55,750 --> 00:33:56,333
So one of the things

1142
00:33:56,333 --> 00:33:58,000
we're doing is tagging.

1143
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,833
So actually tagging great hammerheads and

1144
00:33:59,833 --> 00:34:00,791
getting tissue samples

1145
00:34:00,791 --> 00:34:01,875
with like spear guns.

1146
00:34:02,625 --> 00:34:06,625
And so you can get the samples from using

1147
00:34:06,625 --> 00:34:07,750
using spear guns or pole

1148
00:34:07,750 --> 00:34:09,375
spears down down on the bottom.

1149
00:34:10,083 --> 00:34:11,708
Obviously, a lot of stuff involves like

1150
00:34:11,708 --> 00:34:14,333
doing transects and counting fish and

1151
00:34:14,333 --> 00:34:15,625
getting sort of community data.

1152
00:34:16,458 --> 00:34:18,000
And the other thing is also when we're

1153
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,958
doing like stable isotopes where we're

1154
00:34:19,958 --> 00:34:21,541
trying to figure out we use stable

1155
00:34:21,541 --> 00:34:23,500
isotopes to kind of look at the diet of

1156
00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:25,708
predators and see where they're feeding.

1157
00:34:25,708 --> 00:34:26,416
Are they feeling shallow

1158
00:34:26,416 --> 00:34:27,250
or are they feeling deep?

1159
00:34:27,875 --> 00:34:28,750
And that means you've got to kind of

1160
00:34:28,750 --> 00:34:31,333
sample some of the prey of these

1161
00:34:31,333 --> 00:34:33,250
predators at the sites where you think

1162
00:34:33,250 --> 00:34:33,916
they might be feeding.

1163
00:34:33,916 --> 00:34:35,666
So in a mesophyte reef, we also may go

1164
00:34:35,666 --> 00:34:37,583
and do I've done, you know, spearing

1165
00:34:37,583 --> 00:34:38,833
trips where I basically go and collect

1166
00:34:38,833 --> 00:34:40,500
reef fish at depth and

1167
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:42,250
then bring them up with me.

1168
00:34:42,541 --> 00:34:42,750
No.

1169
00:34:43,375 --> 00:34:44,541
Well, obviously brings up a question if

1170
00:34:44,541 --> 00:34:46,000
you're looking at great hammerhead sharks

1171
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,541
and silver tips and these things and

1172
00:34:47,541 --> 00:34:48,208
you're spearing fish.

1173
00:34:48,750 --> 00:34:50,166
I assume the sharks get a little frisky

1174
00:34:50,166 --> 00:34:51,875
sometime about possible dinner.

1175
00:34:52,166 --> 00:34:54,125
You know that I've never had a problem

1176
00:34:54,125 --> 00:34:55,375
with them from spearing.

1177
00:34:55,583 --> 00:34:57,791
And when we first started to do it in the

1178
00:34:57,791 --> 00:35:00,041
Northwest One Islands deep, I was really

1179
00:35:00,041 --> 00:35:01,541
concerned about it because we had these,

1180
00:35:01,541 --> 00:35:03,541
you know, hour long decompression

1181
00:35:03,708 --> 00:35:05,250
in blue water where sometimes you'd have

1182
00:35:05,250 --> 00:35:07,000
200 Galapagos sharks around you.

1183
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:08,625
So I was like, oh, God, you know, I've

1184
00:35:08,625 --> 00:35:11,625
got for like an hour a bag of fish that's

1185
00:35:11,625 --> 00:35:12,458
going to be really bad.

1186
00:35:13,041 --> 00:35:15,458
So I bought I bought dry bags, you know,

1187
00:35:15,458 --> 00:35:17,750
and my plan was I take a dry bag with me,

1188
00:35:18,125 --> 00:35:20,166
get my bag of fish at the bottom before I

1189
00:35:20,166 --> 00:35:21,916
go up and I'll stuff it in the dry bag

1190
00:35:21,916 --> 00:35:23,083
and I'll seal off the dry bag.

1191
00:35:23,083 --> 00:35:24,583
And that way there's no sort of effluent

1192
00:35:24,583 --> 00:35:26,458
or any sort of blood going out.

1193
00:35:27,208 --> 00:35:29,875
And then, you know, at about 100 feet,

1194
00:35:29,875 --> 00:35:32,666
180 feet, I would hand the bag off to

1195
00:35:32,666 --> 00:35:34,250
safety divers who would come down and

1196
00:35:34,250 --> 00:35:36,291
meet us and they could take it back up.

1197
00:35:36,666 --> 00:35:38,041
But I actually never needed it.

1198
00:35:38,708 --> 00:35:42,000
The blood would bring them in and they

1199
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,958
would get curious, but they never came in

1200
00:35:44,958 --> 00:35:48,000
aggressive and I never had a problem with

1201
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,375
them responding to

1202
00:35:50,375 --> 00:35:52,083
spearing in an aggressive manner.

1203
00:35:52,541 --> 00:35:55,458
I'll tell you that the the what I've seen

1204
00:35:55,458 --> 00:35:59,166
rile up sharks the most was when Carmira

1205
00:35:59,166 --> 00:36:00,958
and I, we were starting to do a project

1206
00:36:00,958 --> 00:36:03,333
tagging grouper, the Hawaiian grouper up

1207
00:36:03,333 --> 00:36:05,000
in the Northwest Islands, which in the

1208
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:05,833
main one is you

1209
00:36:05,833 --> 00:36:06,791
generally see them pretty deep.

1210
00:36:07,041 --> 00:36:08,833
But by the time you get up to Midway at

1211
00:36:08,833 --> 00:36:11,875
all curate at all, which is far north,

1212
00:36:12,250 --> 00:36:14,500
you're seeing them at 30 feet and they're

1213
00:36:14,500 --> 00:36:15,166
an important predator.

1214
00:36:15,166 --> 00:36:16,416
So we started tagging them.

1215
00:36:16,708 --> 00:36:17,958
And initially we were trying to catch

1216
00:36:17,958 --> 00:36:19,250
them to bring them to the surface to do

1217
00:36:19,250 --> 00:36:20,083
the surgery on the boat.

1218
00:36:20,125 --> 00:36:22,208
And, you know, the barotrauma with all

1219
00:36:22,208 --> 00:36:23,875
the sharks around, that wasn't just it

1220
00:36:23,875 --> 00:36:25,000
just wasn't good for the fish.

1221
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:26,166
So we're like, you know, we're going to

1222
00:36:26,166 --> 00:36:27,708
do the surgery underwater.

1223
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:28,833
We're going to catch these group

1224
00:36:28,833 --> 00:36:31,458
underwater, do the surgery and then we

1225
00:36:31,458 --> 00:36:32,875
can put them straight under a hole.

1226
00:36:32,875 --> 00:36:33,541
They can recover.

1227
00:36:33,541 --> 00:36:34,291
There's no barotrauma.

1228
00:36:34,750 --> 00:36:36,625
And that worked very,

1229
00:36:36,625 --> 00:36:37,666
very well for the grouper.

1230
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:39,000
So the surgery went great.

1231
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:39,666
They would all recover.

1232
00:36:40,208 --> 00:36:41,833
What we didn't realize was the first time

1233
00:36:41,833 --> 00:36:44,125
we did it was just colonized and a

1234
00:36:44,125 --> 00:36:46,833
struggling grouper is the sort of the

1235
00:36:46,833 --> 00:36:48,625
loudest dinner I've ever seen for sharks.

1236
00:36:48,625 --> 00:36:50,250
I remember like, you know, we were doing

1237
00:36:50,250 --> 00:36:51,583
the surgery, I looked up and we were

1238
00:36:51,583 --> 00:36:54,083
getting dive bombs by sharks.

1239
00:36:54,458 --> 00:36:55,958
I mean, they were just everywhere and

1240
00:36:55,958 --> 00:36:57,958
they were a completely different state

1241
00:36:57,958 --> 00:36:58,833
than what you were used

1242
00:36:58,833 --> 00:37:00,125
to just from spearing.

1243
00:37:00,125 --> 00:37:01,750
I mean, they were agitated and they were

1244
00:37:01,750 --> 00:37:03,541
just, you know, we were listening back to

1245
00:37:03,541 --> 00:37:04,958
back just going up, trying to push them

1246
00:37:04,958 --> 00:37:06,833
off because they were such a state.

1247
00:37:07,250 --> 00:37:09,125
And after that, I had to make sure we

1248
00:37:09,125 --> 00:37:11,000
would bring like just special I'd have

1249
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,291
three safety divers whose only job was to

1250
00:37:13,291 --> 00:37:14,666
make sure we weren't going to get dive

1251
00:37:14,666 --> 00:37:15,916
bombs while we were doing the surgery.

1252
00:37:16,208 --> 00:37:17,791
That's so that was that was a dinner

1253
00:37:17,791 --> 00:37:19,083
bell, but the actual like

1254
00:37:19,083 --> 00:37:21,416
spearing fish was not so bad.

1255
00:37:21,625 --> 00:37:23,958
Oh, that's that's fascinating.

1256
00:37:23,958 --> 00:37:24,416
That's fascinating.

1257
00:37:24,666 --> 00:37:26,250
But are you still you still got these

1258
00:37:26,250 --> 00:37:27,375
projects going on the one

1259
00:37:27,375 --> 00:37:28,875
you're talking about out there?

1260
00:37:28,875 --> 00:37:30,625
And so I don't I haven't worked in the

1261
00:37:30,625 --> 00:37:32,250
Northwest on islands in quite a while.

1262
00:37:32,583 --> 00:37:34,416
So at the moment, the project I am

1263
00:37:34,416 --> 00:37:35,500
working in Randy Roroe.

1264
00:37:35,500 --> 00:37:37,083
So we're doing this this work with great

1265
00:37:37,083 --> 00:37:38,500
hammerheads, which, you know, there's

1266
00:37:38,500 --> 00:37:39,541
these channels and these

1267
00:37:39,541 --> 00:37:41,291
hammerheads come in there.

1268
00:37:41,291 --> 00:37:42,500
There's lots and lots of gray reef

1269
00:37:42,500 --> 00:37:44,458
sharks, a lot of eagle rays.

1270
00:37:44,791 --> 00:37:45,791
And then, you know, the beautiful thing

1271
00:37:45,791 --> 00:37:46,875
about great hammerheads is

1272
00:37:46,875 --> 00:37:48,375
they're really shark killers.

1273
00:37:48,666 --> 00:37:49,583
I mean, they they like

1274
00:37:49,583 --> 00:37:50,583
to hunt sharks and race.

1275
00:37:51,416 --> 00:37:52,958
And so they come there

1276
00:37:52,958 --> 00:37:54,333
to hunt in this channel.

1277
00:37:55,208 --> 00:37:58,541
And I've not yet been able to see a great

1278
00:37:58,541 --> 00:38:00,625
hammerhead hunting gray reef sharks, but

1279
00:38:00,625 --> 00:38:01,666
several divers have.

1280
00:38:03,208 --> 00:38:05,666
But although you can see them shallow, if

1281
00:38:05,666 --> 00:38:07,208
you want to be able to do any tagging and

1282
00:38:07,208 --> 00:38:08,541
interacting with them, it's generally on

1283
00:38:08,541 --> 00:38:09,291
this ledge that's

1284
00:38:09,291 --> 00:38:10,666
about 50, 60 meters deep.

1285
00:38:11,250 --> 00:38:12,125
Hmm. OK.

1286
00:38:12,916 --> 00:38:14,458
Now, that's I got to ask you.

1287
00:38:14,666 --> 00:38:15,791
So you've seen the eagle rays out there.

1288
00:38:15,791 --> 00:38:17,083
You do anything with the rays or is it

1289
00:38:17,083 --> 00:38:18,416
just strictly sharks or looking?

1290
00:38:18,416 --> 00:38:19,208
No, no, no. So we're

1291
00:38:19,208 --> 00:38:20,500
starting to work with the rays now.

1292
00:38:20,750 --> 00:38:21,583
So we're starting off this.

1293
00:38:21,875 --> 00:38:23,291
This actually I'm going back in March.

1294
00:38:23,458 --> 00:38:24,875
And so hopefully we're going to be

1295
00:38:24,875 --> 00:38:26,666
getting muscle biopsies

1296
00:38:26,666 --> 00:38:28,208
from the rays to look at that.

1297
00:38:28,208 --> 00:38:29,791
We've already collected muscle boxes from

1298
00:38:29,791 --> 00:38:32,625
the sharks to kind of see what proportion

1299
00:38:32,625 --> 00:38:35,791
of the hammerheads diet is these eagle

1300
00:38:35,791 --> 00:38:37,666
rays based on unstable isotopes.

1301
00:38:37,666 --> 00:38:40,000
So the next the next stage is to is to

1302
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:40,875
get some muscle boxes.

1303
00:38:41,458 --> 00:38:42,875
Hopefully into the future, we can start

1304
00:38:42,875 --> 00:38:44,541
doing some tagging of the rays as well to

1305
00:38:44,541 --> 00:38:45,208
really look at sort of

1306
00:38:45,208 --> 00:38:46,666
movements of predator and prey.

1307
00:38:47,416 --> 00:38:49,375
So when you have like graduate students

1308
00:38:49,375 --> 00:38:51,750
come in, say in your lab, they're like,

1309
00:38:52,333 --> 00:38:54,250
and do many of them do the technical

1310
00:38:54,250 --> 00:38:56,041
diving or because it seems like it take

1311
00:38:56,041 --> 00:38:57,458
them like a couple of

1312
00:38:57,458 --> 00:38:58,708
years just to get through that.

1313
00:38:59,333 --> 00:39:01,125
Yeah, I know they don't.

1314
00:39:01,625 --> 00:39:03,708
I have a couple who have by themselves

1315
00:39:03,708 --> 00:39:05,083
are certified on rebreathers.

1316
00:39:05,458 --> 00:39:07,083
The two the two reasons are one is, as

1317
00:39:07,083 --> 00:39:09,416
you said, it's not the sort of thing,

1318
00:39:09,416 --> 00:39:10,708
especially if you want to do deep stuff,

1319
00:39:10,791 --> 00:39:13,541
that you come in to grad school and

1320
00:39:13,541 --> 00:39:14,666
you're going to learn how to do.

1321
00:39:14,666 --> 00:39:16,166
I think really, if that's what you want

1322
00:39:16,166 --> 00:39:17,208
to do, you need to have the experience

1323
00:39:17,208 --> 00:39:19,250
and training before you start with some

1324
00:39:19,250 --> 00:39:21,500
do, you know, it's not it's like, you

1325
00:39:21,500 --> 00:39:24,416
know, having zero boat skills at all and

1326
00:39:24,416 --> 00:39:25,583
then coming in and having to

1327
00:39:25,583 --> 00:39:27,333
to to drive a boat offshore.

1328
00:39:28,333 --> 00:39:29,458
You know, you just you need to have a

1329
00:39:29,458 --> 00:39:30,666
certain foundation to

1330
00:39:30,666 --> 00:39:31,791
do projects like that.

1331
00:39:32,708 --> 00:39:34,416
Also, you know, to be honest, and this is

1332
00:39:34,416 --> 00:39:37,166
a little bit selfish of me, I just it's I

1333
00:39:37,166 --> 00:39:39,208
don't really want the liability of a grad

1334
00:39:39,208 --> 00:39:40,041
student doing that

1335
00:39:40,041 --> 00:39:42,208
stuff of my students on me.

1336
00:39:42,791 --> 00:39:44,333
And again, I'm not telling not to I just

1337
00:39:44,333 --> 00:39:46,458
don't really personally what you know, it

1338
00:39:46,458 --> 00:39:48,875
just is something that would bother me if

1339
00:39:48,875 --> 00:39:49,583
it was for one of my

1340
00:39:49,583 --> 00:39:50,958
projects and somebody got hurt.

1341
00:39:51,708 --> 00:39:52,916
That would that would that would, you

1342
00:39:52,916 --> 00:39:54,166
know, just be be tough.

1343
00:39:54,166 --> 00:39:56,500
So for those reasons, no.

1344
00:39:57,958 --> 00:39:59,916
Well, it's it's a dangerous skill, like

1345
00:39:59,916 --> 00:40:01,916
even the process of it can be dangerous,

1346
00:40:01,916 --> 00:40:04,000
you have to be very aware and like you

1347
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,041
said, have the experience to do it.

1348
00:40:06,875 --> 00:40:08,875
And sometimes people come in, you know,

1349
00:40:08,875 --> 00:40:11,000
early 20s, and they just don't have the

1350
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:12,375
like, they may be divers, but they don't

1351
00:40:12,375 --> 00:40:14,083
have the time to get that experience

1352
00:40:14,083 --> 00:40:15,250
right and just just

1353
00:40:15,250 --> 00:40:16,291
because of their age, right?

1354
00:40:16,625 --> 00:40:18,500
I mean, so if you if you follow the

1355
00:40:18,500 --> 00:40:22,083
rules, I mean, it's not it's, you know,

1356
00:40:22,083 --> 00:40:24,291
if you have a properly trained and have

1357
00:40:24,291 --> 00:40:25,541
the proper equipment and follow the

1358
00:40:25,541 --> 00:40:27,583
proper procedures that, you know, the

1359
00:40:27,583 --> 00:40:28,500
risk is actually you can

1360
00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:30,375
actually keep it pretty minimal.

1361
00:40:31,375 --> 00:40:32,916
And I'll give the example more of cave

1362
00:40:32,916 --> 00:40:34,250
divers. I mean, if you look at cave

1363
00:40:34,250 --> 00:40:37,375
diving fatalities that we have, I think

1364
00:40:37,375 --> 00:40:40,666
80% of those are untrained cave divers,

1365
00:40:40,666 --> 00:40:42,250
they're open water divers who want to go

1366
00:40:42,250 --> 00:40:44,000
into a cave and die.

1367
00:40:44,541 --> 00:40:47,208
Very rarely do we get trained cave divers

1368
00:40:47,208 --> 00:40:49,083
dying in caves, because again, for the

1369
00:40:49,083 --> 00:40:50,625
most part, if you follow the rules, and

1370
00:40:50,625 --> 00:40:51,500
you know what you're doing with the right

1371
00:40:51,500 --> 00:40:53,958
equipment, it's very safe. Of course,

1372
00:40:53,958 --> 00:40:55,416
that's almost easier said than done.

1373
00:40:56,500 --> 00:40:58,958
And you know, things do happen and people

1374
00:40:58,958 --> 00:41:01,625
do make mistakes, experienced divers,

1375
00:41:01,625 --> 00:41:03,583
good divers have made fatal mistakes

1376
00:41:03,583 --> 00:41:06,083
before, right? And that always happens.

1377
00:41:06,375 --> 00:41:09,333
So the thing to, for me, at least, is to

1378
00:41:09,333 --> 00:41:11,416
just try to never get complacent about

1379
00:41:11,416 --> 00:41:13,333
it, because that's really when

1380
00:41:13,916 --> 00:41:15,625
mistakes do get made. And especially

1381
00:41:15,625 --> 00:41:17,333
because you get used to nothing

1382
00:41:17,333 --> 00:41:19,041
happening, right? You do, you do a lot of

1383
00:41:19,041 --> 00:41:20,125
them for the most part, nothing ever

1384
00:41:20,125 --> 00:41:21,416
happens. And then you start to think,

1385
00:41:21,416 --> 00:41:23,583
well, nothing will happen. But obviously,

1386
00:41:23,583 --> 00:41:25,625
it takes one thing to go wrong once. And

1387
00:41:25,625 --> 00:41:27,250
then that's a different story.

1388
00:41:27,791 --> 00:41:29,708
Another thing I just kind of curious, I'm

1389
00:41:29,708 --> 00:41:32,541
just kind of curious from doing, I used

1390
00:41:32,541 --> 00:41:34,041
to do a lot of just regular diving, but

1391
00:41:34,041 --> 00:41:35,625
like, how do you work like with

1392
00:41:35,625 --> 00:41:37,291
hypothermia when you're down for a long

1393
00:41:37,291 --> 00:41:38,375
time, even though you're in a lot of

1394
00:41:38,375 --> 00:41:40,041
tropical areas, you're still at depth,

1395
00:41:40,041 --> 00:41:41,708
and you're even ambient water temperature

1396
00:41:41,708 --> 00:41:43,583
in the tropics is still going to be lower

1397
00:41:43,583 --> 00:41:44,541
than your body temperature.

1398
00:41:44,791 --> 00:41:45,333
How do you deal with that?

1399
00:41:45,375 --> 00:41:49,000
So I've only done deep diving in tropical

1400
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,375
areas. So I've never done it in somewhere

1401
00:41:51,375 --> 00:41:52,583
that's cold. And some of these places

1402
00:41:52,583 --> 00:41:54,083
like, you know, the Marshall Islands, for

1403
00:41:54,083 --> 00:41:57,833
example, it's it's so warm, even on deep

1404
00:41:57,833 --> 00:41:59,833
dives that it's almost too uncomfortable

1405
00:41:59,833 --> 00:42:03,458
to wear a wetsuit. So I have, yeah, so

1406
00:42:03,458 --> 00:42:04,625
again, there's different levels of

1407
00:42:04,625 --> 00:42:06,083
technical diving. I mean, if you look at

1408
00:42:06,083 --> 00:42:08,583
the technical divers in the UK or Europe

1409
00:42:08,583 --> 00:42:11,291
who are doing 80 meter dives in the Merck

1410
00:42:11,291 --> 00:42:13,583
on wrecks in cold water,

1411
00:42:14,250 --> 00:42:15,041
I don't want to do that.

1412
00:42:15,375 --> 00:42:16,916
And that that's a whole different level

1413
00:42:16,916 --> 00:42:20,208
of, you know, skill. So technical diving

1414
00:42:20,208 --> 00:42:21,833
is a continuum, obviously, I mean,

1415
00:42:21,833 --> 00:42:23,500
there's easier ones to do, like the ones

1416
00:42:23,500 --> 00:42:25,500
I do, there's easier ones in the tropics.

1417
00:42:25,500 --> 00:42:28,250
And then there are places where it's it's

1418
00:42:28,250 --> 00:42:29,541
frigid. And at that point, you know,

1419
00:42:29,541 --> 00:42:30,916
you're gonna have to obviously have dry

1420
00:42:30,916 --> 00:42:33,250
suits. Some of my colleagues from France

1421
00:42:33,250 --> 00:42:35,958
were doing, you know, you know,

1422
00:42:36,208 --> 00:42:37,000
relatively deep dives

1423
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,416
under ice in the Antarctic.

1424
00:42:38,750 --> 00:42:41,000
And so they had a very special tailor

1425
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:42,958
made dry suits to deal with the fact they

1426
00:42:42,958 --> 00:42:45,541
had these long dives in very, very cold

1427
00:42:45,541 --> 00:42:47,958
conditions. So cold that with at least

1428
00:42:47,958 --> 00:42:49,500
one of one of my colleagues, the

1429
00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:51,458
moisture, he was suddenly found a hard

1430
00:42:51,458 --> 00:42:53,000
time breathing through his rebreathing.

1431
00:42:59,208 --> 00:43:01,875
And so he was having to break up the ice

1432
00:43:01,875 --> 00:43:03,000
so that he could finish his

1433
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,625
decompression. But luckily, it was very,

1434
00:43:05,625 --> 00:43:08,000
very serious and figured it out. But I'm

1435
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:09,166
not doing that either.

1436
00:43:09,625 --> 00:43:12,875
So how did everyone go? How did I would

1437
00:43:12,875 --> 00:43:14,791
love to dive Antarctic? I would love to

1438
00:43:14,791 --> 00:43:16,458
dive Antarctic. I'd love to dive the

1439
00:43:16,458 --> 00:43:19,041
Arctic. But I think means, you know, deep

1440
00:43:19,041 --> 00:43:19,666
dives Antarctic. That's probably, yeah, probably too much.

1441
00:43:19,666 --> 00:43:20,416
I think that's the antarctic.

1442
00:43:20,416 --> 00:43:22,250
That's probably, yeah, that's

1443
00:43:22,250 --> 00:43:25,208
uh, seems really risky. Yeah,

1444
00:43:25,208 --> 00:43:26,250
that'd be, yeah, I know that

1445
00:43:26,250 --> 00:43:27,583
these Mosse Landings have a,

1446
00:43:27,583 --> 00:43:29,333
have a pretty active antarctic

1447
00:43:29,333 --> 00:43:30,791
program. They'd have people go

1448
00:43:30,791 --> 00:43:31,750
down every year and they used to

1449
00:43:31,750 --> 00:43:32,916
go diving under the ice and

1450
00:43:32,916 --> 00:43:34,375
everything and uh, I would love

1451
00:43:34,375 --> 00:43:35,625
to do that. That's one of my,

1452
00:43:35,625 --> 00:43:37,250
one of my regrets. I'm not

1453
00:43:37,250 --> 00:43:37,916
really sure I'd have the

1454
00:43:37,916 --> 00:43:39,833
opportunity now but not, not

1455
00:43:39,833 --> 00:43:42,000
taking it a chance to go and

1456
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:43,500
die the antarctic because that

1457
00:43:43,500 --> 00:43:45,125
would be something else. Yeah,

1458
00:43:45,125 --> 00:43:46,291
that would be, that would be

1459
00:43:46,291 --> 00:43:47,125
pretty, the only, the only

1460
00:43:48,666 --> 00:43:49,416
thing that I'd love to do at the time,

1461
00:43:49,416 --> 00:43:50,750
because I'd love to have gone but they're

1462
00:43:50,750 --> 00:43:51,958
like, it's, you're down there for like

1463
00:43:51,958 --> 00:43:53,875
three months. So if you're going, yeah,

1464
00:43:53,875 --> 00:43:57,041
yeah, that's why it would be easier when

1465
00:43:57,041 --> 00:43:58,500
you're in your twenties to go and do

1466
00:43:58,500 --> 00:44:01,625
that, you know, and, and, um, be able to

1467
00:44:01,625 --> 00:44:03,416
take the three months to do that unless

1468
00:44:03,416 --> 00:44:05,000
of course, you know, antarctic is your

1469
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,666
main research area but obviously it's not

1470
00:44:07,666 --> 00:44:09,958
mine and that would be the problem. I, I

1471
00:44:09,958 --> 00:44:11,666
couldn't at this point imagine justifying

1472
00:44:11,666 --> 00:44:12,958
a three month trip there

1473
00:44:14,666 --> 00:44:15,958
and uh, visit that's yeah, I was saying

1474
00:44:15,958 --> 00:44:17,291
with me that I just, I could have gone

1475
00:44:17,291 --> 00:44:19,541
but I just three months of doing uh, you

1476
00:44:19,541 --> 00:44:22,375
know, benthic meal in fauna study with

1477
00:44:22,375 --> 00:44:25,000
it. I just like had a blood and

1478
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,625
leopard seals, leopard seals, that would

1479
00:44:26,625 --> 00:44:28,333
be cool to study. That would be

1480
00:44:28,333 --> 00:44:39,500
interesting. Longer, longer than that.

1481
00:44:39,500 --> 00:44:41,291
Well, how, how was it like when you were,

1482
00:44:41,708 --> 00:44:43,250
um, you talked about how Jaws was an

1483
00:44:43,250 --> 00:44:43,666
influence on you and everything and, and

1484
00:44:43,708 --> 00:44:46,541
obviously we're in Chris Lowe's lab and

1485
00:44:46,541 --> 00:44:49,000
Chris is, you know, like they filmed Jaws

1486
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:50,458
out there when he was a kid where he grew

1487
00:44:50,458 --> 00:44:53,125
up there in Martha's Vineyard. Um, did

1488
00:44:53,125 --> 00:44:55,166
that how is it? I'm sure you didn't know

1489
00:44:55,166 --> 00:44:56,375
that when you went out to work with

1490
00:44:56,375 --> 00:44:58,666
Chris. How is that? I, I didn't know that

1491
00:44:58,666 --> 00:45:00,916
and not only that but Chris Lowe's uncle

1492
00:45:00,916 --> 00:45:02,958
is in Jaws. He's one of the council

1493
00:45:02,958 --> 00:45:05,125
members at the, at the meeting when

1494
00:45:05,125 --> 00:45:06,458
they're, when they're, when they're

1495
00:45:06,458 --> 00:45:10,000
trying to hire, um, hire Quinn. Um, so

1496
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:11,666
that was his uncle was actually in one of those seats. Hilarious. Oh, of course.

1497
00:45:12,666 --> 00:45:16,083
Um, the other connection is that Steven

1498
00:45:16,083 --> 00:45:17,791
Spielberg did his undergrad at Long

1499
00:45:17,791 --> 00:45:19,875
Beach. Uh, and actually the commencement

1500
00:45:19,875 --> 00:45:23,083
speaker when I, when I graduated, um, but

1501
00:45:23,083 --> 00:45:25,208
the rumor is, and I'm not entirely sure

1502
00:45:25,208 --> 00:45:27,333
if this is true is that they filmed a

1503
00:45:27,333 --> 00:45:29,625
scene because obviously then, you know,

1504
00:45:29,625 --> 00:45:31,958
Don Nelson was one of the very few shark

1505
00:45:31,958 --> 00:45:34,166
labs in the US. I mean, there was Don,

1506
00:45:34,458 --> 00:45:36,791
uh, Sonny. I think he was at U.N. at that

1507
00:45:36,791 --> 00:45:37,666
point, but there weren't, there weren't many for sure. Yeah. And I believe because of that Long Beach connection, and the, I think it was, uh, I think it was at the University of Long Beach.

1508
00:45:37,666 --> 00:45:40,958
Um, and I believe because of that Long

1509
00:45:40,958 --> 00:45:42,916
Beach connection that they filmed a scene

1510
00:45:42,916 --> 00:45:44,708
that was meant to be Hooper working in

1511
00:45:44,708 --> 00:45:46,625
the lab that was in Don's lab at Long

1512
00:45:46,625 --> 00:45:48,708
Beach that was ended up, you know, cut

1513
00:45:48,708 --> 00:45:51,625
from the final, um, final film. So I'm

1514
00:45:51,625 --> 00:45:53,333
not 100% sure if that's true or not. I

1515
00:45:53,333 --> 00:45:56,000
actually met Richard Dreyfus once and I

1516
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,875
meant to ask him and then I forgot. Okay.

1517
00:45:59,375 --> 00:46:01,500
You, uh, you may know this but I don't

1518
00:46:01,500 --> 00:46:03,041
know if you knew but Leonard Capanio

1519
00:46:03,041 --> 00:46:04,375
actually helped design the mechanical

1520
00:46:04,375 --> 00:46:04,666
shark Bruce in the movie.

1521
00:46:04,708 --> 00:46:08,000
Well, I did know that he's acknowledged

1522
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:09,666
at the end of the film. So when they're

1523
00:46:09,666 --> 00:46:12,666
swimming when when Hooper and Brody are

1524
00:46:12,666 --> 00:46:14,625
swimming back to shore is does thank

1525
00:46:14,625 --> 00:46:17,000
length and Panno in the credits. Yeah.

1526
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:18,375
He's the last one that came up. Yeah.

1527
00:46:18,458 --> 00:46:21,000
Yeah. I would have did you know I don't

1528
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,291
know if you knew Leonard very well or did

1529
00:46:22,291 --> 00:46:24,500
you? I met him a couple times. Um, but

1530
00:46:24,500 --> 00:46:26,625
that only at meetings in passing. He was

1531
00:46:26,625 --> 00:46:28,750
a, I've heard people tell you said the

1532
00:46:28,750 --> 00:46:30,875
podcast for he was a character and would

1533
00:46:30,875 --> 00:46:32,375
have been a fly in the wall to see

1534
00:46:32,375 --> 00:46:33,250
Leonard and Spielberg

1535
00:46:33,250 --> 00:46:33,666
running around in that shark.

1536
00:46:34,916 --> 00:46:42,916
I went to an amazing play in New York

1537
00:46:42,916 --> 00:46:44,666
called the shark is broken, which is

1538
00:46:44,666 --> 00:46:47,416
about the filming of Jaws. It's the three

1539
00:46:47,416 --> 00:46:49,416
main characters and it's just basically

1540
00:46:49,416 --> 00:46:53,541
they're filming the scene on what's the

1541
00:46:53,541 --> 00:46:54,666
name of the the boats that the very end. It's, um, so the all cut.

1542
00:46:55,666 --> 00:47:00,125
Yeah, I think it is. It is. It is an

1543
00:47:00,125 --> 00:47:01,875
orca. Yeah, I think it's a comment. But

1544
00:47:01,875 --> 00:47:04,708
you know, the quince boat and the whole

1545
00:47:04,708 --> 00:47:06,208
thing was about, you know, the shark

1546
00:47:06,208 --> 00:47:08,708
wouldn't work. And so they were having to

1547
00:47:08,708 --> 00:47:11,291
redo a lot of these scenes and the play

1548
00:47:11,291 --> 00:47:12,916
was absolutely incredible. The guy

1549
00:47:12,916 --> 00:47:15,666
playing quint is actually Robert Shaw's son. So Robert Shaw played Quinn in in the movie. And so his son looks almost identical to Robert Shaw. And at the end, and you know, he does a whole.

1550
00:47:22,583 --> 00:47:28,166
You know, recitation of the Indianapolis

1551
00:47:28,166 --> 00:47:30,583
speech and it's like you're watching his

1552
00:47:30,583 --> 00:47:32,666
dad on stage in front of you. I mean, it

1553
00:47:32,666 --> 00:47:35,833
was it was I don't go to too many plays,

1554
00:47:35,833 --> 00:47:36,666
but that one really blew me away. Oh, man. So I gotta ask you since Jaws is an influence. You we talked about the Nat Geo. Did you ever see a blue water white death?

1555
00:47:45,958 --> 00:47:49,500
I did. I did. And you know, that was also

1556
00:47:49,500 --> 00:47:52,833
an amazing documentary. And my two

1557
00:47:52,833 --> 00:47:55,291
stories for that is I actually first of

1558
00:47:55,291 --> 00:47:57,666
all, you know, there's the I love that film or that show as sort of historical ecology because there's the scene where they go diving with oceanic white tips. And it's like, you know, I think it's a really interesting thing.

1559
00:48:13,125 --> 00:48:13,625
And I think that's something you'd never

1560
00:48:13,625 --> 00:48:15,875
see today. And just to kind of show you

1561
00:48:15,875 --> 00:48:17,250
what I think I was off with Durban. I

1562
00:48:17,250 --> 00:48:19,125
believe it was off Durban. Yeah. Yeah.

1563
00:48:19,416 --> 00:48:20,708
And to show you what it used

1564
00:48:20,708 --> 00:48:22,666
to look like back in the 70s.

1565
00:48:22,708 --> 00:48:25,916
And then the other thing is actually when

1566
00:48:25,916 --> 00:48:31,083
I was at HIV, Stan Waterman, his name, he

1567
00:48:31,083 --> 00:48:34,000
came by he came by the lab. He was quite

1568
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:35,958
quite old at that point. And he came by

1569
00:48:35,958 --> 00:48:37,416
someone who brought him by and I just

1570
00:48:37,416 --> 00:48:38,666
showed him a satellite tag and some

1571
00:48:38,666 --> 00:48:41,208
biologous and I spent a little bit of

1572
00:48:41,208 --> 00:48:42,416
time showing him all the different tags

1573
00:48:42,416 --> 00:48:44,500
we used. And I told him that, you know,

1574
00:48:44,666 --> 00:48:47,000
that documentary was a was a big

1575
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,583
influence on me. And a month later, he

1576
00:48:49,583 --> 00:48:51,708
sent me a signed copy. Oh, that's

1577
00:48:51,708 --> 00:48:53,791
awesome. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah.

1578
00:48:54,208 --> 00:48:55,833
I think it was probably about 12 years

1579
00:48:55,833 --> 00:48:57,208
old when that movie came out. And I

1580
00:48:57,208 --> 00:48:58,583
remember going and seeing it. I just

1581
00:48:58,583 --> 00:49:00,333
thought that was just like an amazing

1582
00:49:00,333 --> 00:49:02,333
movie. And then, as you mentioned, if you

1583
00:49:02,333 --> 00:49:04,541
watch the movie, and just for young

1584
00:49:04,541 --> 00:49:06,458
people that haven't seen it, it's pretty

1585
00:49:06,458 --> 00:49:08,125
graphic. It's not like things you see

1586
00:49:08,125 --> 00:49:08,666
today. They go through the movie. They go through the movie. And they're like, oh, I'm going to do this. And I'm like, oh, I'm going to
do this. And I'm like, oh, I'm going to do this. And I'm like, oh, I'm going to do this. And I'm like, oh, I'm going to do this. And I

1587
00:49:08,666 --> 00:49:10,125
think, you know, the reason they went to

1588
00:49:10,125 --> 00:49:12,125
Durban was because because they used to

1589
00:49:12,125 --> 00:49:13,500
get a lot of big white sharks come in,

1590
00:49:13,500 --> 00:49:14,416
because that's where they used to have a

1591
00:49:14,416 --> 00:49:15,791
whaling station there. And they'd pull

1592
00:49:15,791 --> 00:49:17,958
the whales in that they'd harpooned. And

1593
00:49:17,958 --> 00:49:19,958
the white sharks would come in there. And

1594
00:49:19,958 --> 00:49:21,875
I when I was when I was a grad student in

1595
00:49:21,875 --> 00:49:23,000
South Africa, you go look at some of

1596
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:24,208
those pictures, there were some massive

1597
00:49:24,208 --> 00:49:25,708
white sharks. And that's why they went

1598
00:49:25,708 --> 00:49:28,583
there. But as Yanni mentioned, they saw

1599
00:49:28,583 --> 00:49:30,875
at that time, there was just oceanic

1600
00:49:30,875 --> 00:49:32,375
white tips as far as you could see, they

1601
00:49:32,375 --> 00:49:34,375
were literally like, they'd get hundreds

1602
00:49:34,375 --> 00:49:36,916
of them coming in. And it was just it was

1603
00:49:36,916 --> 00:49:37,833
nobody done anything

1604
00:49:37,833 --> 00:49:38,666
like that before, where they

1605
00:49:38,708 --> 00:49:40,500
actually went out to film white sharks or

1606
00:49:40,500 --> 00:49:42,666
just film sharks in the wild. And you

1607
00:49:42,666 --> 00:49:44,500
mentioned like Stan Waterman, that Rod

1608
00:49:44,500 --> 00:49:47,000
and Valerie Taylor, Peter gimbal and

1609
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:48,833
Peter gimbal. I mean, it was a crazy time

1610
00:49:48,833 --> 00:49:50,208
because like Peter gimbal was getting

1611
00:49:50,208 --> 00:49:52,750
bent on TV, like he was coming up with

1612
00:49:52,750 --> 00:49:55,208
decompression sickness, refusing to go in

1613
00:49:55,208 --> 00:49:57,083
the chamber. They were like forcing him.

1614
00:49:57,083 --> 00:49:57,708
They were having it. They were like,

1615
00:49:57,708 --> 00:49:59,000
we're not filming anymore unless you go

1616
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:00,583
into the chamber and stop because he just

1617
00:50:00,583 --> 00:50:03,166
wouldn't stop. And I think that the funny

1618
00:50:03,166 --> 00:50:05,125
thing is they didn't find any white

1619
00:50:05,125 --> 00:50:06,958
sharks in South Africa, even though if

1620
00:50:06,958 --> 00:50:08,500
they'd gone further south to

1621
00:50:08,666 --> 00:50:12,083
South Africa, they would have found them.

1622
00:50:12,083 --> 00:50:12,250
And they would have probably found them.

1623
00:50:12,250 --> 00:50:13,750
So they ended up Australia, I forget

1624
00:50:13,750 --> 00:50:15,416
where they actually did the white. It was

1625
00:50:15,416 --> 00:50:17,291
dangerous. They finally ended up in

1626
00:50:17,291 --> 00:50:20,041
dangerous reef, South Australia. But they

1627
00:50:20,041 --> 00:50:22,416
went to Sri Lanka. They went all over the

1628
00:50:22,416 --> 00:50:23,833
place. All over the place. But they

1629
00:50:23,833 --> 00:50:26,291
finally found dangerous reef. It was

1630
00:50:26,291 --> 00:50:27,791
where they found the white sharks and

1631
00:50:27,791 --> 00:50:30,333
everything. And but you know, but as I

1632
00:50:30,333 --> 00:50:32,125
mentioned at that time, Durban, because

1633
00:50:32,125 --> 00:50:34,416
of the whaling station, they used to get

1634
00:50:34,416 --> 00:50:36,541
a lot of big white sharks in there. And

1635
00:50:36,541 --> 00:50:38,041
they had the fishing club

1636
00:50:38,041 --> 00:50:38,666
there. And you can go to the

1637
00:50:38,666 --> 00:50:40,708
beach and go there even today. They have

1638
00:50:40,708 --> 00:50:42,458
what they call the thousand pound club

1639
00:50:42,458 --> 00:50:44,833
and guys would fish off the jetty there

1640
00:50:44,833 --> 00:50:47,500
to land if you landed a thousand pound

1641
00:50:47,500 --> 00:50:49,000
white shark and there's quite a in the

1642
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:50,625
fifties and sixties, they landed quite a

1643
00:50:50,625 --> 00:50:52,208
few of them there and they're I mean,

1644
00:50:52,208 --> 00:50:54,958
they're massive sharks. Um so there was a

1645
00:50:54,958 --> 00:50:56,666
yeah, I realized like the way if they got

1646
00:50:56,666 --> 00:50:58,833
down towards Cape Town, Hans by they

1647
00:50:58,833 --> 00:51:01,083
would have definitely run into them but

1648
00:51:01,083 --> 00:51:04,041
but they weren't known then. No, no, no.

1649
00:51:04,041 --> 00:51:05,375
Well, yeah. Yeah. Well, I

1650
00:51:08,666 --> 00:51:09,875
think the story of the locals down there.

1651
00:51:09,875 --> 00:51:12,916
Yeah. Yeah. They knew about it. Yeah. I I

1652
00:51:12,916 --> 00:51:14,833
tell the story when I was a student

1653
00:51:14,833 --> 00:51:16,833
there, the locals would tell me about oh,

1654
00:51:16,833 --> 00:51:17,875
you know, the white sharks out here

1655
00:51:17,875 --> 00:51:19,750
breach. I was like, what are you talking

1656
00:51:19,750 --> 00:51:21,125
about these breach? Because nobody ever

1657
00:51:21,125 --> 00:51:23,458
filmed that before. And then Chris

1658
00:51:23,458 --> 00:51:25,208
Fallows like after about a couple years

1659
00:51:25,208 --> 00:51:27,666
after I left, he started filming it and

1660
00:51:27,666 --> 00:51:29,416
um but I'd seen it there and like people

1661
00:51:29,416 --> 00:51:30,916
thought you're if you tell people and I

1662
00:51:30,916 --> 00:51:32,875
remember telling people like Greg Kye,

1663
00:51:33,166 --> 00:51:36,291
John McOsker, Bob Lee that the sharks are

1664
00:51:36,291 --> 00:51:38,125
breaching and they thought like, no, you

1665
00:51:38,708 --> 00:51:42,333
know, I said, yeah, they really are

1666
00:51:42,333 --> 00:51:44,625
reaching down there and um well and I

1667
00:51:44,625 --> 00:51:46,500
just I went to South Africa in ninety

1668
00:51:46,500 --> 00:51:50,458
nine. So, it was very shortly after Chris

1669
00:51:50,458 --> 00:51:52,750
Fallows has started, you know, uh he was

1670
00:51:52,750 --> 00:51:54,458
just starting to to make a name himself

1671
00:51:54,458 --> 00:51:55,833
with these pictures and we were just for

1672
00:51:55,833 --> 00:51:58,083
the first time kind of seeing seeing

1673
00:51:58,083 --> 00:52:02,958
these these aerial uh white sharks. Yeah.

1674
00:52:02,958 --> 00:52:04,583
So, it was anyways just just a bit of I

1675
00:52:04,583 --> 00:52:06,000
know it's a bit of historical thing for

1676
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:07,333
younger people but you

1677
00:52:07,333 --> 00:52:08,666
know, some of these programs you

1678
00:52:08,666 --> 00:52:10,541
mentioned like blue water white death. Of

1679
00:52:10,541 --> 00:52:11,958
course, Jaws probably most people have

1680
00:52:11,958 --> 00:52:15,458
seen but the Jeanie Clark Nat Geo from 84

1681
00:52:15,458 --> 00:52:17,500
when it came out. Those are just if you

1682
00:52:17,500 --> 00:52:19,208
want to get a historical perspective of

1683
00:52:19,208 --> 00:52:21,583
things what was going on. Those are just

1684
00:52:21,583 --> 00:52:24,416
a couple of I made my my graduate student

1685
00:52:24,416 --> 00:52:26,000
Candice is studying the best in

1686
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:27,875
conservation biology of of oceanic white

1687
00:52:27,875 --> 00:52:29,833
tips specifically in the Bahamas but I I

1688
00:52:29,833 --> 00:52:31,375
made her watch blue water white death.

1689
00:52:31,833 --> 00:52:33,375
So, you can see what it what it used to

1690
00:52:33,375 --> 00:52:35,833
look like in some places. Yeah. And

1691
00:52:35,833 --> 00:52:36,875
what's she what does she think?

1692
00:52:38,666 --> 00:52:39,625
Yeah. So, you know, again, you know, and

1693
00:52:39,625 --> 00:52:41,791
and Cat Island Bahamas is a place where

1694
00:52:41,791 --> 00:52:43,625
we work and that's actually, you know,

1695
00:52:43,875 --> 00:52:45,791
kind of unique in that you can go out

1696
00:52:45,791 --> 00:52:48,083
there and I've seen up to maybe eleven

1697
00:52:48,083 --> 00:52:51,125
oceanic white tips on a dive and it's an

1698
00:52:51,125 --> 00:52:52,750
ecotourism site. So, it's a combination

1699
00:52:52,750 --> 00:52:55,333
of it's a natural aggregation area for

1700
00:52:55,333 --> 00:52:57,333
these sharks and that every year but then

1701
00:52:57,333 --> 00:52:59,000
there's also ecotourism on top of that

1702
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:00,583
that has conditioned them. So, you can go

1703
00:53:00,583 --> 00:53:03,000
to some sometime then see like eleven

1704
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:04,625
oceanic white tips which is extremely

1705
00:53:04,625 --> 00:53:07,000
rare anywhere else. Um but

1706
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:08,083
then you see blue water white

1707
00:53:08,666 --> 00:53:09,791
tips. That's a whole different. That was

1708
00:53:09,791 --> 00:53:11,791
not a baited shark dive. That was like

1709
00:53:11,791 --> 00:53:13,041
they just jumped in the ocean and there

1710
00:53:13,041 --> 00:53:15,416
was there was this wall, a wall of

1711
00:53:15,416 --> 00:53:17,541
oceanic white. Wow. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

1712
00:53:17,541 --> 00:53:18,666
That's and that's and that's and that was

1713
00:53:18,666 --> 00:53:20,625
off Durban where they have they had the

1714
00:53:20,625 --> 00:53:22,000
well, the white ticks are usually

1715
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:23,291
offshore but they have the the the

1716
00:53:23,291 --> 00:53:24,833
netting off the beaches and stuff. Yeah.

1717
00:53:25,208 --> 00:53:26,708
You at that time, if you went up toward

1718
00:53:26,708 --> 00:53:28,958
like say Mozambique or Madagascar, just

1719
00:53:28,958 --> 00:53:31,500
been wild to see and they're there are

1720
00:53:31,500 --> 00:53:33,166
stuff you read some of the stuff by John

1721
00:53:33,166 --> 00:53:35,458
Bass and some of those guys going off a

1722
00:53:35,458 --> 00:53:36,458
little of a tangent but

1723
00:53:36,458 --> 00:53:37,625
but there is some historical

1724
00:53:38,708 --> 00:53:40,583
information that document what how it

1725
00:53:40,583 --> 00:53:42,000
used to be like for the oceanic white

1726
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,250
tips on stuff and so you're actually

1727
00:53:44,250 --> 00:53:45,666
doing a lot of stuff on oceanic white

1728
00:53:45,666 --> 00:53:48,375
tips now yourself. You know, they're

1729
00:53:48,375 --> 00:53:51,541
they're my favorite shark. Um yeah, it's

1730
00:53:51,541 --> 00:53:53,291
my favorite shark and so, you know, I

1731
00:53:53,291 --> 00:53:54,833
started getting interested in them in

1732
00:53:54,833 --> 00:53:56,541
when I was in Hawaii which we would see

1733
00:53:56,541 --> 00:53:58,666
them sometimes and in Kona, you would see

1734
00:53:58,666 --> 00:54:02,458
them following um pilot whales um and

1735
00:54:02,458 --> 00:54:03,916
then really um you

1736
00:54:03,916 --> 00:54:05,791
know, I was able to join

1737
00:54:08,666 --> 00:54:09,250
the oceanic white tips where they were

1738
00:54:09,250 --> 00:54:11,333
satellite tagging oceanic white tips off

1739
00:54:11,333 --> 00:54:13,958
of Count Island Bahamas and I was really

1740
00:54:13,958 --> 00:54:15,583
interested in what interested me about

1741
00:54:15,583 --> 00:54:17,041
them was the fact that they live in this

1742
00:54:17,041 --> 00:54:18,916
basically the oceanic equivalent of the

1743
00:54:18,916 --> 00:54:20,791
desert. Right. I mean, that's open ocean.

1744
00:54:20,791 --> 00:54:23,208
Very little food. It's very patchy and

1745
00:54:23,208 --> 00:54:25,166
they're very unique shark to me in terms

1746
00:54:25,166 --> 00:54:26,916
of how they look morphologically. You

1747
00:54:26,916 --> 00:54:28,458
know, these beautiful rounded fins and

1748
00:54:28,458 --> 00:54:31,875
then also how they behave. I really when

1749
00:54:31,875 --> 00:54:33,416
when I went in the water with oceanic

1750
00:54:33,416 --> 00:54:34,583
white tips, you just really feel that

1751
00:54:34,583 --> 00:54:36,833
that is a shark that is figuring you out

1752
00:54:36,833 --> 00:54:38,625
and you really should be on your

1753
00:54:38,708 --> 00:54:40,750
on your toes because it's just like uh

1754
00:54:40,750 --> 00:54:43,333
it's very um I don't want to use the term

1755
00:54:43,333 --> 00:54:46,125
smart but but you kind of that's what I'm

1756
00:54:46,125 --> 00:54:48,500
implying. Basically, it's a shark that is

1757
00:54:48,500 --> 00:54:51,833
just like really on it and um so I was

1758
00:54:51,833 --> 00:54:54,041
really interested in in um you know what

1759
00:54:54,041 --> 00:54:57,416
adaptations they have to live in in this

1760
00:54:57,416 --> 00:54:59,333
desert. So, we wanted to put you know

1761
00:54:59,333 --> 00:55:01,083
these biologos that include video

1762
00:55:01,083 --> 00:55:03,125
cameras, et cetera, swimming speed

1763
00:55:03,125 --> 00:55:05,916
sensors and we could do biomechanics um

1764
00:55:05,916 --> 00:55:07,125
and try and see what

1765
00:55:07,125 --> 00:55:08,583
these adaptations may be and

1766
00:55:08,666 --> 00:55:11,125
so, you know, I joined their team um and

1767
00:55:11,125 --> 00:55:13,208
we started to put biologos out on oceanic

1768
00:55:13,208 --> 00:55:15,000
white tips in the Bahamas. So, I've

1769
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:16,625
worked there a lot and then uh recently,

1770
00:55:16,625 --> 00:55:18,625
I was you know uh involved with some

1771
00:55:18,625 --> 00:55:20,916
colleagues who just started um satellite

1772
00:55:20,916 --> 00:55:23,750
tracking um uh oceanic white tips in

1773
00:55:23,750 --> 00:55:25,708
French Polynesia as well. So, so I gotta

1774
00:55:25,708 --> 00:55:27,416
I gotta share quickly a story with you on

1775
00:55:27,416 --> 00:55:29,416
my oceanic white tip story when we were

1776
00:55:29,416 --> 00:55:31,500
when I was a grad student, we were doing

1777
00:55:31,500 --> 00:55:34,083
some deep sets long lines up up on the

1778
00:55:34,083 --> 00:55:35,083
Mozambique border with

1779
00:55:35,083 --> 00:55:36,583
South Africa. It's in the late

1780
00:55:38,666 --> 00:55:39,875
winter. There was this one survey we did.

1781
00:55:39,875 --> 00:55:41,541
There was myself. There's Paul Cali,

1782
00:55:41,541 --> 00:55:44,416
Jeremy Cliff, uh Sheldon Dudley, kind of

1783
00:55:44,416 --> 00:55:46,083
the brain trust of the shark, young shark

1784
00:55:46,083 --> 00:55:48,208
guys and Leonard Copanio except for

1785
00:55:48,208 --> 00:55:49,583
Leonard who stayed in the boat. The rest

1786
00:55:49,583 --> 00:55:50,833
of us when you're kind of waiting for the

1787
00:55:50,833 --> 00:55:53,458
long lines to soak, you jump off the back

1788
00:55:53,458 --> 00:55:54,791
of the boat cuz you're in the tropics and

1789
00:55:54,791 --> 00:55:56,375
it's hot as hell and you just so we're

1790
00:55:56,375 --> 00:55:57,666
snorkeling around there trying to maybe

1791
00:55:57,666 --> 00:55:59,708
spearfish some Mahi Mahi or whatever and

1792
00:55:59,708 --> 00:56:01,750
after an hour or so, we got out of the

1793
00:56:01,750 --> 00:56:03,458
boat and the whole time

1794
00:56:03,458 --> 00:56:04,750
we're diving, this is up. Blue

1795
00:56:08,666 --> 00:56:08,875
I'm like, oh, I'm still there.

1796
00:56:08,875 --> 00:56:10,625
Get in the boat and within like five

1797
00:56:10,625 --> 00:56:11,791
minutes, somebody goes,

1798
00:56:11,791 --> 00:56:12,791
hey, check this out.

1799
00:56:12,791 --> 00:56:14,750
And there's freaking oceanic white tips

1800
00:56:14,750 --> 00:56:15,791
under the boat, just

1801
00:56:15,791 --> 00:56:16,416
swimming around.

1802
00:56:17,333 --> 00:56:18,500
And I'm just going like, oh,

1803
00:56:19,250 --> 00:56:21,291
I probably saw half a dozen.

1804
00:56:21,291 --> 00:56:22,708
There's I don't know how many.

1805
00:56:22,708 --> 00:56:23,291
Probably at least a

1806
00:56:23,291 --> 00:56:24,291
half a dozen under there.

1807
00:56:24,791 --> 00:56:26,500
Wasn't like hundreds, but there was a few

1808
00:56:26,500 --> 00:56:27,041
of them swimming under

1809
00:56:27,041 --> 00:56:27,541
the boat.

1810
00:56:27,541 --> 00:56:29,916
You know, one's one's enough, but it was

1811
00:56:29,916 --> 00:56:31,000
like, but I just remember

1812
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:32,541
thinking we all kind of looked at each

1813
00:56:32,541 --> 00:56:33,500
other and go like, these

1814
00:56:33,500 --> 00:56:34,125
things didn't just

1815
00:56:34,125 --> 00:56:35,458
show up all of a sudden.

1816
00:56:36,708 --> 00:56:37,041
And we were diving

1817
00:56:37,041 --> 00:56:38,875
and none of us saw them.

1818
00:56:39,250 --> 00:56:39,791
We're all we had.

1819
00:56:39,791 --> 00:56:40,416
We had Matt.

1820
00:56:40,416 --> 00:56:40,958
We're snorkeling.

1821
00:56:40,958 --> 00:56:42,708
We were snorkeling around out there.

1822
00:56:42,708 --> 00:56:43,916
It was probably 1500

1823
00:56:43,916 --> 00:56:45,541
meters, the depth where we were.

1824
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,250
And it was, but yeah, I

1825
00:56:48,250 --> 00:56:49,166
don't know if you had any.

1826
00:56:49,666 --> 00:56:50,625
I have.

1827
00:56:50,625 --> 00:56:52,833
And in fact, similar to being in water a

1828
00:56:52,833 --> 00:56:53,833
few times with them,

1829
00:56:53,833 --> 00:56:55,916
where you've seen them and they're very,

1830
00:56:55,916 --> 00:56:57,291
very calm and swimming

1831
00:56:57,291 --> 00:56:58,875
around and it's been a really great

1832
00:56:58,875 --> 00:57:00,000
experience and they disappear

1833
00:57:00,666 --> 00:57:02,333
and you don't pay attention.

1834
00:57:02,333 --> 00:57:03,541
And then the next thing you know, they're

1835
00:57:03,541 --> 00:57:04,875
kind of rocketing up behind

1836
00:57:04,875 --> 00:57:05,166
you.

1837
00:57:05,666 --> 00:57:06,958
And I'm not saying they would have come

1838
00:57:06,958 --> 00:57:08,291
in for the bite, but they definitely

1839
00:57:08,291 --> 00:57:09,916
were behaving differently when they had,

1840
00:57:09,916 --> 00:57:11,666
when they had come up behind me.

1841
00:57:12,125 --> 00:57:13,958
And I really did feel like, you know,

1842
00:57:13,958 --> 00:57:15,791
this shark was kind of perhaps giving

1843
00:57:15,791 --> 00:57:18,083
me a full sense of security and then, you

1844
00:57:18,083 --> 00:57:20,708
know, checking me out when I wasn't

1845
00:57:20,958 --> 00:57:21,458
looking again.

1846
00:57:21,458 --> 00:57:22,041
I'm not implying it

1847
00:57:22,041 --> 00:57:23,000
was coming into bite me.

1848
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:24,750
No, but it was behaving different.

1849
00:57:24,750 --> 00:57:26,458
I mean, I wouldn't even say like ones, I

1850
00:57:26,458 --> 00:57:27,125
wouldn't say they were like

1851
00:57:27,125 --> 00:57:28,666
particularly aggressive, but they were

1852
00:57:28,666 --> 00:57:30,375
just like, we just like, there's

1853
00:57:30,375 --> 00:57:32,083
like half a six of us in the water.

1854
00:57:32,083 --> 00:57:33,541
Nobody saw a shark at all.

1855
00:57:33,708 --> 00:57:35,458
And then all of a sudden we get out, we

1856
00:57:35,458 --> 00:57:36,583
get out in the back of the boat and

1857
00:57:36,583 --> 00:57:37,500
the transom and all of it.

1858
00:57:37,500 --> 00:57:38,875
And we just look over like there's these

1859
00:57:38,875 --> 00:57:40,625
oceanic white tips swimming under the

1860
00:57:40,666 --> 00:57:41,666
boat. It's like, what the hell these

1861
00:57:41,666 --> 00:57:43,416
things come from, you know?

1862
00:57:44,166 --> 00:57:46,375
So one of the, and I did get bit by one

1863
00:57:46,375 --> 00:57:47,875
and that was on the boat.

1864
00:57:47,875 --> 00:57:48,916
It was one I was tagging.

1865
00:57:48,916 --> 00:57:50,166
It wasn't in the water, but it was the

1866
00:57:50,166 --> 00:57:52,083
first time that I had gotten bitten

1867
00:57:52,083 --> 00:57:55,250
by a shark and it was the one time I, you

1868
00:57:55,250 --> 00:57:56,500
know, the golden rule when you're

1869
00:57:56,500 --> 00:57:58,291
tagging sharks is you never take your

1870
00:57:58,291 --> 00:57:59,791
eyes off the head if you were holding

1871
00:57:59,791 --> 00:58:00,625
the picture orphans.

1872
00:58:01,083 --> 00:58:02,666
And this shark had

1873
00:58:03,958 --> 00:58:05,500
basically we put a camera tag on her

1874
00:58:05,500 --> 00:58:07,916
dorsal fin and as we were releasing

1875
00:58:07,916 --> 00:58:09,083
her, some line had gotten

1876
00:58:09,083 --> 00:58:10,208
wrapped around the camera.

1877
00:58:10,916 --> 00:58:12,625
And for just that one second, I was just

1878
00:58:12,625 --> 00:58:13,958
all I was concerned about was a

1879
00:58:13,958 --> 00:58:16,083
$10,000 tag and the data.

1880
00:58:16,375 --> 00:58:17,000
I was like, I don't want

1881
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:18,291
the camera to be offline.

1882
00:58:18,291 --> 00:58:19,166
So I turned around to

1883
00:58:19,166 --> 00:58:20,833
reach around and untie it.

1884
00:58:21,208 --> 00:58:22,541
And then she, she had

1885
00:58:22,541 --> 00:58:24,625
grabbed me, grabbed my hand.

1886
00:58:25,666 --> 00:58:25,708
Wow.

1887
00:58:26,666 --> 00:58:28,416
So I got to ask you one question.

1888
00:58:28,416 --> 00:58:29,541
Just a couple more questions here.

1889
00:58:29,541 --> 00:58:30,583
I don't want to, it's been a terrific

1890
00:58:30,583 --> 00:58:31,666
interview, but so you do, you're,

1891
00:58:31,708 --> 00:58:32,666
you're very involved

1892
00:58:32,666 --> 00:58:34,291
in Brazilian jiu jitsu.

1893
00:58:34,833 --> 00:58:37,208
How do you, does that help you mentally,

1894
00:58:37,583 --> 00:58:38,541
physically for any of the diving

1895
00:58:38,541 --> 00:58:40,083
stuff you do, or is that just a separate,

1896
00:58:40,083 --> 00:58:41,375
a complete separate activity?

1897
00:58:41,375 --> 00:58:42,333
No, you know, I've

1898
00:58:42,333 --> 00:58:43,791
always loved martial arts.

1899
00:58:44,041 --> 00:58:45,000
You know, I grew up in the eighties.

1900
00:58:45,291 --> 00:58:47,291
John Cole, Van Dam, Bruce Lee, you know,

1901
00:58:47,291 --> 00:58:48,625
that was like Chuck Norris.

1902
00:58:48,875 --> 00:58:50,083
I mean, that was, so I've always been

1903
00:58:50,083 --> 00:58:51,250
into martial arts and I was always

1904
00:58:51,250 --> 00:58:53,083
into like more, you know, kicking with

1905
00:58:53,083 --> 00:58:54,375
Taekwondo and then boxing.

1906
00:58:54,375 --> 00:58:57,500
And I gradually switched as I moved to

1907
00:58:57,500 --> 00:58:59,208
Hawaii and I started to, you know,

1908
00:58:59,500 --> 00:58:59,666
pick up grappling.

1909
00:58:59,666 --> 00:59:02,333
And so I started Brazilian jiu jitsu when

1910
00:59:02,333 --> 00:59:04,208
I started my PhD in 2003.

1911
00:59:05,291 --> 00:59:08,166
And it certainly is something like now.

1912
00:59:08,500 --> 00:59:09,416
I mean, I really can't

1913
00:59:09,416 --> 00:59:10,958
imagine being without it.

1914
00:59:11,208 --> 00:59:13,875
I mean, I still, you know, obviously how

1915
00:59:13,875 --> 00:59:15,666
can I can train to be limited by trying

1916
00:59:15,666 --> 00:59:17,750
and still do two, three times a week.

1917
00:59:18,666 --> 00:59:21,916
And both physically and also mentally.

1918
00:59:21,916 --> 00:59:23,833
And it does help me under pressure

1919
00:59:23,833 --> 00:59:24,666
because the thing about Brazilian jiu jitsu

1920
00:59:24,708 --> 00:59:28,791
is, you know, you grapple a lot.

1921
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:30,625
You actually spar with a opponent, people

1922
00:59:30,625 --> 00:59:32,458
who are not, you know, trying to let you

1923
00:59:32,458 --> 00:59:35,333
win, who are going to try and beat you.

1924
00:59:36,083 --> 00:59:37,416
And I like, you know, I often go against

1925
00:59:37,416 --> 00:59:39,416
people a lot heavier than me and you get

1926
00:59:39,416 --> 00:59:40,708
the fatigue and then

1927
00:59:40,708 --> 00:59:41,708
you're dealing with like

1928
00:59:42,291 --> 00:59:44,041
very uncomfortable situations of having,

1929
00:59:44,041 --> 00:59:45,500
let's say, someone much heavier than you,

1930
00:59:45,750 --> 00:59:47,416
smothering you, you got fatigue

1931
00:59:47,666 --> 00:59:51,125
and panic can start to set in.

1932
00:59:51,125 --> 00:59:51,750
And especially I'm a bit

1933
00:59:51,750 --> 00:59:52,666
claustrophobic. So it really does.

1934
00:59:52,708 --> 00:59:56,958
So it helps me to to have those

1935
00:59:56,958 --> 01:00:00,375
situations and try and stay calm because

1936
01:00:00,375 --> 01:00:03,125
the fact is with with a lot of these

1937
01:00:03,125 --> 01:00:05,166
things, I'm talking about, you know,

1938
01:00:05,166 --> 01:00:06,791
technical diving, for example, I mean,

1939
01:00:06,791 --> 01:00:08,166
panic is what will get you.

1940
01:00:08,958 --> 01:00:11,375
And I'm not saying I wouldn't panic

1941
01:00:11,375 --> 01:00:12,625
because, you know, it's one of those

1942
01:00:12,625 --> 01:00:13,291
things that you just

1943
01:00:13,291 --> 01:00:14,666
don't know until it happens.

1944
01:00:15,666 --> 01:00:18,791
But at least I feel like it helps me stay

1945
01:00:18,791 --> 01:00:21,166
stay grounded mentally. And then

1946
01:00:21,166 --> 01:00:23,291
obviously, you know, physically gives me

1947
01:00:23,291 --> 01:00:25,750
I'm very like I can be

1948
01:00:25,750 --> 01:00:26,625
inherently pretty lazy.

1949
01:00:27,041 --> 01:00:29,083
So if I don't have exercise, I enjoy

1950
01:00:29,083 --> 01:00:31,333
doing. Yeah, I'm just going to make a

1951
01:00:31,333 --> 01:00:33,625
quickly lose interest in doing it.

1952
01:00:33,625 --> 01:00:34,833
And so the fact that I have something

1953
01:00:34,833 --> 01:00:37,500
that I just like to grapple means I'll go

1954
01:00:37,500 --> 01:00:38,958
and do it and I'll stay disciplined.

1955
01:00:38,958 --> 01:00:40,333
I've stayed disciplined with it for 22

1956
01:00:40,333 --> 01:00:42,916
years. I didn't have that. I would just

1957
01:00:42,916 --> 01:00:43,666
sit on my couch. Yeah.

1958
01:00:43,666 --> 01:00:45,666
Yeah, yeah. I know. The question is the

1959
01:00:45,666 --> 01:00:49,000
question is at the next conference that

1960
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:50,333
do a shark conference,

1961
01:00:50,333 --> 01:00:51,083
maybe sharks international.

1962
01:00:51,750 --> 01:00:53,041
Are you going to get in the ring and

1963
01:00:53,041 --> 01:00:55,958
compete against Britt Fanucci? She seems

1964
01:00:55,958 --> 01:00:58,583
to be beat the head out of a Christian.

1965
01:01:00,666 --> 01:01:02,875
She's a competitive type boxer. Yeah. And

1966
01:01:02,875 --> 01:01:04,875
my brother was a pro type boxer. So I've

1967
01:01:04,875 --> 01:01:07,125
seen how they fight. And I was like, oh,

1968
01:01:07,125 --> 01:01:09,250
look, if you're going to kick my shit.

1969
01:01:09,666 --> 01:01:12,333
I just I tell you anyway, I think she's

1970
01:01:12,333 --> 01:01:13,416
probably beating me up. Sorry.

1971
01:01:14,333 --> 01:01:18,875
Well, Yanni, this has been really

1972
01:01:18,875 --> 01:01:19,916
terrific. One last

1973
01:01:19,916 --> 01:01:21,500
question for you is like, so what

1974
01:01:23,041 --> 01:01:24,375
advice would you have for a young person

1975
01:01:24,375 --> 01:01:25,625
starting out that wants to

1976
01:01:25,625 --> 01:01:26,708
do marine biology sharks?

1977
01:01:27,083 --> 01:01:28,416
Would you have any advice for him?

1978
01:01:28,666 --> 01:01:31,166
I do. I think my advice is don't get too

1979
01:01:31,166 --> 01:01:33,000
focused. Don't get too

1980
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:34,708
obsessed with like, I want to

1981
01:01:34,708 --> 01:01:37,250
study sharks or this species of shark,

1982
01:01:37,250 --> 01:01:38,000
even if that's the

1983
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:39,166
animal you want to work with.

1984
01:01:39,208 --> 01:01:41,083
And I say that because especially I don't

1985
01:01:41,083 --> 01:01:41,916
say I'm saying it's more

1986
01:01:41,916 --> 01:01:43,041
from an academic standpoint,

1987
01:01:43,041 --> 01:01:45,083
if you want to go into academia, if you

1988
01:01:45,083 --> 01:01:45,958
want to get, let's say

1989
01:01:45,958 --> 01:01:47,416
into a faculty position,

1990
01:01:47,875 --> 01:01:49,750
they don't advertise for shark biology

1991
01:01:49,750 --> 01:01:51,166
positions. That's not what

1992
01:01:51,166 --> 01:01:52,041
universities are looking for.

1993
01:01:52,041 --> 01:01:53,375
They're looking for like a predatory

1994
01:01:53,375 --> 01:01:54,750
college or a conservation

1995
01:01:54,750 --> 01:01:55,666
biologist or whatever it

1996
01:01:55,666 --> 01:01:57,875
may be. So a lot of my work is with

1997
01:01:57,875 --> 01:01:59,000
sharks when those are my

1998
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:00,416
favorite animals, but I

1999
01:02:00,541 --> 01:02:02,083
actually don't call myself a shark

2000
01:02:02,083 --> 01:02:03,250
scientist. I don't like to

2001
01:02:03,250 --> 01:02:04,375
use that term because it really

2002
01:02:04,458 --> 01:02:06,958
just kind of pigeonholes us. So I'll call

2003
01:02:06,958 --> 01:02:08,708
myself like a predatory colleges or an

2004
01:02:08,708 --> 01:02:10,791
animal ecologist or also something

2005
01:02:10,791 --> 01:02:13,333
broader. So I try and tell students to

2006
01:02:13,333 --> 01:02:17,916
think broad, don't get just too focused

2007
01:02:17,916 --> 01:02:20,708
on one animal. And really, some of the

2008
01:02:20,708 --> 01:02:22,583
most interesting things I think I've done

2009
01:02:22,583 --> 01:02:24,666
has been when I've collaborated with

2010
01:02:24,666 --> 01:02:27,125
people from other fields, statisticians,

2011
01:02:27,583 --> 01:02:29,041
particularly people from like math

2012
01:02:29,041 --> 01:02:30,291
backgrounds or engineering backgrounds. So really don't neglect your math background.

2013
01:02:30,333 --> 01:02:34,708
So really don't neglect your math or your

2014
01:02:34,708 --> 01:02:36,875
physics. You may not like it. You may not

2015
01:02:36,875 --> 01:02:38,916
think it's important, but I really wish

2016
01:02:38,916 --> 01:02:41,500
that I had a stronger background in those

2017
01:02:41,500 --> 01:02:42,958
fields. I find good people to collaborate

2018
01:02:42,958 --> 01:02:45,666
with. But I think especially coming up,

2019
01:02:46,500 --> 01:02:49,625
think broad. I really love theoretical

2020
01:02:49,625 --> 01:02:51,000
biology now. It's never something I

2021
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:51,291
thought I would say. But go out and read the broader literature. Don't get too tunnel vision.

2022
01:02:59,250 --> 01:03:03,541
Just for sharks. Yeah. Can I ask like

2023
01:03:03,541 --> 01:03:05,791
some of your former students or some of

2024
01:03:05,791 --> 01:03:07,041
the students have come through your lab,

2025
01:03:07,041 --> 01:03:08,958
like what types of jobs did they get when

2026
01:03:08,958 --> 01:03:12,291
they came out of the graduate programs? Yes, I mean, several of them go on to do postdocs. I've had some are now working for NGOs. Some are working for NOAA. And I think that's a really good thing.

2027
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:26,500
And obviously, you know, there's many

2028
01:03:26,500 --> 01:03:28,333
things you can do with a PhD doesn't have

2029
01:03:28,333 --> 01:03:32,291
to be just academia. It's just it's good to start thinking about what your long term goal is because again, especially once you get to the PhD level, you just want to start thinking ahead as to what I want to do.

2030
01:03:41,375 --> 01:03:44,750
After this. Yeah. And the fact is,

2031
01:03:44,750 --> 01:03:46,375
especially for academia, it just

2032
01:03:46,375 --> 01:03:47,875
continuously gets more competitive,

2033
01:03:48,250 --> 01:03:50,458
right? I mean, yes, very competitive. You

2034
01:03:50,458 --> 01:03:51,708
know, when I was coming up, and it's way

2035
01:03:51,708 --> 01:03:53,291
more competitive now, because there's a lot more very qualified people out there for the same number of jobs. So you really got to start planning these, you know, ahead of the time.

2036
01:03:59,791 --> 01:04:05,333
To try and be, you know, to increase your

2037
01:04:05,333 --> 01:04:06,750
chances of getting the position you want.

2038
01:04:07,291 --> 01:04:09,833
Absolutely. Great. Absolutely. Thank you.

2039
01:04:09,833 --> 01:04:11,291
It's been terrific. Well, definitely have to have you come back on. No, my pleasure.

2040
01:04:11,333 --> 01:04:15,500
Around some more. Really appreciate it.

2041
01:04:15,500 --> 01:04:16,916
Thank you so much for coming on the show.

2042
01:04:16,916 --> 01:04:18,458
Thanks. Thanks for having me enjoy the

2043
01:04:18,458 --> 01:04:20,625
chat. Thank you, Giannis, for joining us

2044
01:04:20,625 --> 01:04:23,500
on the Beyond Jaws podcast. Really great

2045
01:04:23,500 --> 01:04:27,041
to have you on. Dave, like to be able to

2046
01:04:27,041 --> 01:04:30,125
dive 300 feet below the surface to see

2047
01:04:30,125 --> 01:04:32,500
sharks like a lot of people won't even go

2048
01:04:32,500 --> 01:04:33,291
five feet under the surface to see sharks.

2049
01:04:33,333 --> 01:04:39,125
He's going 300 feet with colleagues to do

2050
01:04:39,125 --> 01:04:41,875
this type of work. It's dangerous. It's

2051
01:04:41,875 --> 01:04:44,375
you have to be very skilled and very well

2052
01:04:44,375 --> 01:04:46,000
trained to do this type of stuff. You

2053
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:49,375
have to be calm, you know and be able to

2054
01:04:49,375 --> 01:04:53,000
handle being in those depths. What did

2055
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:55,208
you think? Would you ever do that? Well,

2056
01:04:55,208 --> 01:04:57,750
probably when I was in my 20s and 30s, I

2057
01:04:57,750 --> 01:04:58,333
would say they didn't have that. That really wasn't an option back then. I used to I still die. But yeah, I would
say to never have done that. I mean, I think I'm a national champion. So I hope you have a great day.

2058
01:05:03,333 --> 01:05:04,375
When I was a young person, I would have

2059
01:05:04,375 --> 01:05:05,208
probably gotten into,

2060
01:05:05,875 --> 01:05:07,041
Okay. Hadn't gone in that direction.

2061
01:05:08,291 --> 01:05:09,958
But it was, they didn't really have that,

2062
01:05:10,125 --> 01:05:11,500
those types of technical stuff he did

2063
01:05:11,500 --> 01:05:12,291
that was not available

2064
01:05:12,291 --> 01:05:13,750
when I was coming through

2065
01:05:13,750 --> 01:05:14,708
in the eighties.

2066
01:05:14,708 --> 01:05:15,291
And of course he came

2067
01:05:15,291 --> 01:05:16,625
through about 20 years later

2068
01:05:17,125 --> 01:05:18,541
when they had a lot of those techniques.

2069
01:05:18,541 --> 01:05:19,458
And even as he

2070
01:05:19,458 --> 01:05:20,750
explains, like a lot of stuff,

2071
01:05:20,750 --> 01:05:22,291
they were still making

2072
01:05:22,291 --> 01:05:23,458
it up as they went along,

2073
01:05:23,541 --> 01:05:25,125
essentially, trying to develop it.

2074
01:05:25,125 --> 01:05:26,208
Cause they really didn't

2075
01:05:26,208 --> 01:05:28,166
have a formal protocol now,

2076
01:05:28,166 --> 01:05:29,125
which is now they do.

2077
01:05:29,875 --> 01:05:31,208
So there's a little bit of,

2078
01:05:31,208 --> 01:05:32,500
you know, gosh, and by golly,

2079
01:05:32,541 --> 01:05:35,083
we hope Yanni comes back in the dive.

2080
01:05:36,500 --> 01:05:38,291
(both laughing) I mean, it is like, let's be honest,

2081
01:05:38,500 --> 01:05:39,333
like the people have

2082
01:05:39,333 --> 01:05:40,708
passed away from that before.

2083
01:05:40,708 --> 01:05:42,375
It's a, it's a dangerous situation.

2084
01:05:42,625 --> 01:05:43,625
You really have to know your

2085
01:05:43,625 --> 01:05:45,166
stuff and you have to spend

2086
01:05:45,166 --> 01:05:46,750
the hours it takes to

2087
01:05:46,750 --> 01:05:48,750
understand how to use the equipment

2088
01:05:49,208 --> 01:05:51,250
in various, you know, situations.

2089
01:05:51,666 --> 01:05:53,833
It's not always an easy, calm dive.

2090
01:05:53,833 --> 01:05:55,458
And sometimes things can

2091
01:05:55,458 --> 01:05:56,625
get panicked and you have to,

2092
01:05:56,625 --> 01:05:57,791
you have to stay calm.

2093
01:05:57,791 --> 01:05:59,625
And obviously Yanni has been able to do

2094
01:05:59,625 --> 01:06:00,708
that over his career.

2095
01:06:01,291 --> 01:06:03,750
It's, it's impeccable to hear.

2096
01:06:03,791 --> 01:06:04,833
I think Yanni, like you

2097
01:06:04,833 --> 01:06:05,791
talked a little bit towards the end

2098
01:06:05,791 --> 01:06:07,875
about is, is a jiu-jitsu

2099
01:06:07,875 --> 01:06:08,916
and stuff and how that kind of

2100
01:06:08,916 --> 01:06:10,500
helps mentally as well as physically.

2101
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:11,333
Cause you gotta be

2102
01:06:11,333 --> 01:06:12,875
physically, you gotta be in really good

2103
01:06:12,875 --> 01:06:14,333
shape to do that type of diving.

2104
01:06:14,625 --> 01:06:16,208
But also mentally, you've got to be,

2105
01:06:16,791 --> 01:06:17,458
in addition to the

2106
01:06:17,458 --> 01:06:18,875
experience, you got to be able to,

2107
01:06:19,166 --> 01:06:21,000
be able to, be able to push

2108
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:22,375
the limits without panicking.

2109
01:06:22,375 --> 01:06:22,916
I mean, there's obviously

2110
01:06:22,916 --> 01:06:23,958
situations that come up,

2111
01:06:24,250 --> 01:06:25,458
as he said, where you, you know, you,

2112
01:06:25,458 --> 01:06:26,083
you never know what's going

2113
01:06:26,083 --> 01:06:27,208
to happen until it happens,

2114
01:06:27,791 --> 01:06:29,250
but the better prepared you are,

2115
01:06:29,291 --> 01:06:30,166
the better physically

2116
01:06:30,166 --> 01:06:31,791
and mentally fit you are,

2117
01:06:33,083 --> 01:06:34,541
your chance, if something goes bad,

2118
01:06:34,541 --> 01:06:35,125
you'll, you'll be able

2119
01:06:35,125 --> 01:06:36,208
to deal with it better.

2120
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:38,583
And I think that was kind of

2121
01:06:38,583 --> 01:06:39,791
the whole sort of mind body

2122
01:06:39,958 --> 01:06:40,708
thing and that's,

2123
01:06:40,708 --> 01:06:41,666
this technical diving is

2124
01:06:41,666 --> 01:06:42,916
really where it takes place where

2125
01:06:42,916 --> 01:06:44,375
you've got to have a whole

2126
01:06:44,375 --> 01:06:46,208
combination there to really,

2127
01:06:46,208 --> 01:06:47,000
to be able to go through

2128
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:48,250
and to do that type of extreme

2129
01:06:48,375 --> 01:06:49,791
diving, but yeah, I would have been,

2130
01:06:50,125 --> 01:06:51,208
it'd have been kind of a

2131
01:06:51,208 --> 01:06:52,333
little envious, you know,

2132
01:06:52,333 --> 01:06:54,458
if I was younger at the time,

2133
01:06:54,458 --> 01:06:55,208
when they had that

2134
01:06:55,208 --> 01:06:57,375
would be really cool to do,

2135
01:06:57,791 --> 01:06:58,625
to experience that.

2136
01:06:58,875 --> 01:06:59,916
And I think the other thing to us,

2137
01:06:59,916 --> 01:07:01,166
want to touch on as you, we talked,

2138
01:07:01,166 --> 01:07:02,333
and we've done this a few other episodes,

2139
01:07:02,625 --> 01:07:03,500
talked about some of the stuff,

2140
01:07:04,083 --> 01:07:05,375
Yani mentioned how, you know,

2141
01:07:05,375 --> 01:07:06,166
Jaws really got them

2142
01:07:06,166 --> 01:07:07,750
hooked onto sharks early on.

2143
01:07:08,250 --> 01:07:08,666
And we tell you,

2144
01:07:08,666 --> 01:07:10,666
you talked about how the Nat

2145
01:07:10,666 --> 01:07:12,083
Geo show with Eugenie Clark

2146
01:07:12,083 --> 01:07:12,958
back in the eighties

2147
01:07:12,958 --> 01:07:13,958
was a very inspiration.

2148
01:07:14,166 --> 01:07:15,041
I remember seeing that as,

2149
01:07:15,041 --> 01:07:16,041
when I was a grad student

2150
01:07:16,041 --> 01:07:17,583
in the mid eighties there,

2151
01:07:17,583 --> 01:07:18,625
it was very, it was, it

2152
01:07:18,625 --> 01:07:19,875
was a really well done show.

2153
01:07:20,458 --> 01:07:21,208
And then of course, once again,

2154
01:07:21,208 --> 01:07:22,708
we talked about blue water, white death,

2155
01:07:22,708 --> 01:07:24,500
but for younger people, like those are,

2156
01:07:24,916 --> 01:07:26,416
from a historical standpoint

2157
01:07:26,416 --> 01:07:28,208
to see kind of where things

2158
01:07:28,375 --> 01:07:29,541
were in terms of shark

2159
01:07:29,541 --> 01:07:31,250
research and shark knowledge,

2160
01:07:31,666 --> 01:07:33,208
going back to the seventies and eighties,

2161
01:07:33,208 --> 01:07:34,541
it kind of gives you a different

2162
01:07:34,541 --> 01:07:35,458
perspective or a

2163
01:07:35,458 --> 01:07:37,083
better perspective to today,

2164
01:07:37,583 --> 01:07:38,750
where we are today in

2165
01:07:38,750 --> 01:07:39,750
terms of shark research.

2166
01:07:40,083 --> 01:07:41,708
And I think Yani touched on it too,

2167
01:07:41,708 --> 01:07:43,875
like when he was coming through as in

2168
01:07:43,875 --> 01:07:45,416
certainly when I was there before,

2169
01:07:45,416 --> 01:07:47,000
there wasn't a lot of options there.

2170
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:49,375
You just had few, very few labs.

2171
01:07:49,750 --> 01:07:50,416
Even today, you don't

2172
01:07:50,416 --> 01:07:51,666
really have a lot of shark labs.

2173
01:07:51,666 --> 01:07:53,208
People find ways to make it work.

2174
01:07:54,041 --> 01:07:54,958
But there was all back then

2175
01:07:54,958 --> 01:07:56,333
in the eighties, nineties,

2176
01:07:56,416 --> 01:07:57,916
it was almost almost nothing.

2177
01:07:57,916 --> 01:07:59,291
You'd count on one hand the

2178
01:07:59,291 --> 01:08:01,166
places you could go do sharks.

2179
01:08:01,875 --> 01:08:03,500
Yeah, no, 100%, 100%.

2180
01:08:03,791 --> 01:08:04,416
No, it was definitely

2181
01:08:04,416 --> 01:08:06,000
a wonderful interview.

2182
01:08:06,416 --> 01:08:07,000
We would like to hear

2183
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:08,166
what you think of it.

2184
01:08:08,750 --> 01:08:10,916
You can contact us on Beyond

2185
01:08:10,916 --> 01:08:13,333
Jaws Pod Instagram and Dave,

2186
01:08:13,333 --> 01:08:14,458
if they want to ask you questions, how

2187
01:08:14,458 --> 01:08:15,083
would they get ahold of?

2188
01:08:15,083 --> 01:08:16,625
Yeah, you can go through my Instagram

2189
01:08:16,625 --> 01:08:18,291
account, LostSharkGuy.

2190
01:08:18,625 --> 01:08:19,958
And I now have a YouTube

2191
01:08:19,958 --> 01:08:22,541
channel up, LostSharkGuy.

2192
01:08:22,875 --> 01:08:25,416
And we just posted our first video

2193
01:08:25,416 --> 01:08:27,541
documentary, searching for lost sharks.

2194
01:08:27,541 --> 01:08:29,416
And I hope people go there and check out

2195
01:08:29,416 --> 01:08:31,875
the episodes and subscribe to it and

2196
01:08:31,916 --> 01:08:33,625
subscribe to the Beyond Jaws podcast,

2197
01:08:33,958 --> 01:08:35,041
YouTube channel as well.

2198
01:08:35,375 --> 01:08:36,750
And you'll get all the shark stuff you

2199
01:08:36,750 --> 01:08:38,500
want to get from those two sources there.

2200
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:39,791
So, absolutely.

2201
01:08:40,333 --> 01:08:41,125
Looking forward to it.

2202
01:08:41,791 --> 01:08:43,791
And we're going to put the social media

2203
01:08:43,791 --> 01:08:45,458
sites for Yannis on there.

2204
01:08:45,458 --> 01:08:47,291
So if you ever want to follow him, get to

2205
01:08:47,291 --> 01:08:48,041
know him a little bit more,

2206
01:08:48,041 --> 01:08:49,041
you can do so.

2207
01:08:49,375 --> 01:08:49,625
And if you're

2208
01:08:49,625 --> 01:08:50,791
interested in predatory science,

2209
01:08:51,333 --> 01:08:52,250
that would be the person

2210
01:08:52,250 --> 01:08:53,541
that you would want to go to.

2211
01:08:54,250 --> 01:08:57,125
So thank you so much for Dave and of

2212
01:08:57,125 --> 01:08:58,083
course, Yannis for joining

2213
01:08:58,083 --> 01:08:59,208
us on the on the podcast.

2214
01:08:59,666 --> 01:09:01,041
And of course, we would thank you for

2215
01:09:01,041 --> 01:09:02,166
listening to the Beyond

2216
01:09:02,166 --> 01:09:03,250
Jaws podcast from Dave.

2217
01:09:03,250 --> 01:09:04,500
And I really appreciate it.

2218
01:09:04,500 --> 01:09:05,125
Have a great day.

2219
01:09:05,458 --> 01:09:06,000
We'll talk to you next

2220
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:07,250
time and happy conservation.