Transcript
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We have another wonderful bonus episode here on
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the Beyond Jaws podcast. We're going to be talking to John Carlson and
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Chelsea Young from NOAA discussing the recovery plan
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for the oceanic white tip. This is an interesting episode. We're going
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to dive into the science, into what a recovery plan really
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looks like, and why are they looking at a global recovery
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plan with the oceanic white tips when they're from the US. So it's going to be an interesting
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conversation. We're going to talk about it on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws
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podcast, the bonus episode. Let's start the show. In
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the early to mid 1900s, the only thing people knew about sharks was
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that they bit people from time to time. Some scientists started to
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get to know more about the larger sharks, studying their life histories and
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their fisheries. As the field grew, so did the diversity of fields
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within shark science. Public interest in sharks grew exponentially
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as a series of movies called Jaws piqued the people's fear and curiosity
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for these sharks. More information was revealed about
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these mysterious animals as the shark science field grew. From exploration
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to discovery to genetics and ecology, the Beyond Jaws podcast will
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introduce you to shark scientists of the American Alasma Brain Society and
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their work to help you better understand these wonderful species and
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take your knowledge Beyond Jaws. Hey
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everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws
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podcast, a bonus episode today. I am your co-host, Andrew
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Lewin, here with my other co-host, Dr. David Ebert. Dave, this
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is about oceanic white tips. What do you know about
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Well, there's a lot of concern, a lot of areas of the world where the
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populations have declined by, you know, 90, 99% in some
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areas. And so it's probably not as
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well as we'll find out today about as And even though it's
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a concern in the U.S. waters, you get into international waters
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beyond national boundaries of national
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jurisdictions, you talk to other countries, other oceanic areas
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where the populations have been severely impacted. And
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so this plan they put together is actually a global plan with
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the major ocean basins looked at in different areas. It's
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fascinating how they go to go through. We'll talk about the process, what they do, why
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they came about to do this, do this, why it involved ocean, why
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they did oceanic white tips and some of the research that they've been doing. And
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so people get a little bit of a peek behind the scene on how the
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process works with like a NOAA fisheries and some of these organizations. And
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I think talking about some of the international aspects of it. too, was
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Yeah, absolutely. I think this is going to be a very, very fun episode to
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be able to talk about. So here is the interview with John
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Carlson and Chelsea Young talking about the recovery plan for
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the oceanic white tips. Enjoy, and we'll talk to you after. Hey,
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John and Chelsea, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready
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Thanks for having us. Welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast. We
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have a special bonus episode today. It's such a big
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show. We have to have two people on to talk about it. Today we have John
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Carlson and Chelsea Young, both with NOAA Fisheries, who recently completed
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a conservation and management recovery plan for the oceanic white tip, Carcharhinus
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longimanus. It's a species listed under the Endangered Species Act,
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and it's also listed under CITES Appendix 2, as well as several
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other conservation and management organization protocols. John
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is a research fishery biologist with the National Marine Fisheries Service
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in Panama City, where he started as a graduate student in
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the 1990s. After completing his doctorate in biological sciences
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from the University of Mississippi, he took a full-time position with
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the Southeast Fishery Science Center in Panama City.
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His research involves biological and analytical research relating to
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population dynamics in support of the stock assessment of sharks, but
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he also conducts research towards the recovery of endangered elasmobranchs. John
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serves on numerous committees nationally and internationally, and has an
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extensive publication record, and collaborates with numerous colleagues at universities,
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state agencies, and private institutions. He enjoys working with students
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and has supervised graduate students as a committee member, and he's mentored
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countless undergraduate interns, such as Megan Whitten
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and Ivy Barrymore, who were both recently on the podcast. Chelsea,
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who also works for the NOAA Fisheries, but she's based out in Honolulu, Hawaii,
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where she oversees the recovery planning and rulemaking for Threatening Endangered
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Marine Species under the U.S. Endangered Species Act. Her
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educational background includes a bachelor's and a master's degree in
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marine affairs and policy from the University of Miami's Rosensteil School
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of Marine, Atmospheric, and Earth Science. And she's been, has 15 years
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experience in marine conservation arena with a special interest in alazobranchs. She
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also serves on the regional vice chair for the
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IUCN shark specialist group along with John Carlson. And
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John and Chelsea, welcome to the show today. Thank you so much. Thank you, Dave.
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So, wow. I can't believe it. Awesome. Uh, so we, uh, briefly before we
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get into the, uh, on the, on the, on the recovery plan you just
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produced, could each of you tell us just a little bit about your background, how you got
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Sure. So I grew up in South Florida near
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Fort Lauderdale on the East Coast. And so my whole
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upbringing was on the beaches there and in the
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marine environment. I became a scuba diver at 14 years old and just
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always enamored with all of the wonderful marine life that
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Florida had to offer. And I knew from a very young age that I wanted to study
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marine science and work towards that.
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Going to the University of Miami, I got into the marine affairs and policy field,
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which is a little bit broader, looking at
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different policy issues and management as opposed to being an applied research
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scientist. And I went to graduate school there
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as well. I actually worked on corals in
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my master's work. But it wasn't until I actually got hired
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with NOAA Fisheries that I started to work on petition
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responses under the Endangered Species Act for various elasmobranchs. So
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basically we got a number of NGOs
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or environmental groups that think that sharks have some problems and
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they want NOAA fisheries to take a look and see whether or not they warrant federal
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protection under the Endangered Species Act. And I worked on a whole host
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of those petitions actually when I was in Silver
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Spring, Maryland at our headquarters office. But
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even before I started working on sharks with Noah, I've always been incredibly fascinated
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by them. I watched all kinds of National Geographic documentaries
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on sharks when I was a child, and Eugenie Clark, and Sylvia
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Earle were my, you know, just massive, you
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know, inspirational women in that field. And so it's,
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yeah, that's kind of what led me into going into this field.
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Yeah, real similar situation. Not growing up in Florida, but growing
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up in Connecticut, You know, I was on the water before I
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could walk. I think, you know, my dad had a boat and we were on the ocean
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all the time and just became enamored with the ocean and,
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um, just kept, you know, pursuing various
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fields. And it was, it was kind of funny when, you know, I've done media
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people before and everybody's like, Oh, did you want to be Jock Bustow when you grow up? I'm like, no,
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I want to be Matt Cooper. So, you
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know, kind of one of those things and just
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kept building. Actually, when I did my master's, it was on
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little tiny winter flounder about the size of, you know, between
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my fingers. I did that for my master's work, but I always had that
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interest in sharks and elasmobranchs. And I was lucky enough to
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work under Glenn Parsons at the University of Mississippi after I finished my master's.
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And it was just one of those kind of, you know, serendipitous kind
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of situations where I ended up working with Glenn and
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working at the Panama City lab for my dissertation. And
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everything kind of came together where I ended up, you know, still studying sharks,
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which, you know, generally doesn't happen to me. You do your dissertation stuff on one
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thing and end up doing another. But like I said, it was just, you know,
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luck of the draw, you know, that I ended up doing work and then. At
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the same time, I was finishing up my dissertation and Rick Cortez recently
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got hired as one of the population analysts for
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sharks in the Southeast Pacific Science Center in NOAA where that worked. And he
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was, you know, of the opinion that, you know, look, if we want a shark program, I
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need, we want John in here too. And it just turned out that I
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ended up in that program. So one of these very,
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you know, issues, you know, that just kind of like everything
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Yeah. You're one of the few guys that actually went Were they able to stay in
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the shark field, actually going from your PhD into working there
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at NOAA? Because most people have to go through this long, winding
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road to usually get back into doing the shark field, so you're definitely
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Exactly. That's exactly what I tell a lot of the interns and
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graduate students that I mentor. It's like, don't expect to
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work on sharks. It was just pure serendipity,
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timing, everything that ended up doing something. Ironically,
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when I was finishing up my PhD, I was applying for postdocs. I
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actually had a postdoc opportunity in the University of Washington to
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do CBERTS, so it was one of those things where
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That's good. It's interesting to hear about your background there. John and I have known
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each other a long time, so I know a little bit about that. Go
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Oh yeah. In the Amazon. The Amazon, yeah, that's right. We had
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our infamous Amazon with the pink dolphins and everything else, where
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we did not do any bird watching, if I recall correctly. So
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why don't you, how did the whole, so obviously you guys
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are both involved with the Endangered Species Act, and most of
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us in the field know that Oceanic white tips are
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a species considered vulnerable. But how
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did that come about of all the different species you could have picked up
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Yeah, I can answer that. So generally, to
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get this process started under the U.S. Endangered Species Act,
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there's really two ways that can happen. One is that no
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officiaries can be petitioned by a third party, like
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an NGO or non-governmental organization or
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environmental group or any individual really can send
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in a petition to us to ask us to look at the status of
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the species. Or we can self-initiate, but oftentimes
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we just don't have the capacity or resources to be able to initiate what
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we would call a status review of a species on our own. We're
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usually being pretty reactive to external requests or
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petitions. In this case, we got a petition from a
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non-governmental organization asking us
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to take a look at the status of oceanic white tip sharks. And
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usually when people think of a petition, they're thinking of a letter with
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a bunch of signatures on it. And in this case, it's really more of a biological report.
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It has to have a lot of substantial scientific information and data for
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us to consider. in order to go forward with what we would
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call a formal status review of the species to determine
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whether or not it meets the definition of threatened or endangered as
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laid out by the Endangered Species Act. So that's initially how this started. I
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think it was submitted to us in 2015 or 2016. I can't
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remember the exact year. But when we got that petition and
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we looked at it, we said, OK, yeah, there's enough here for us to take a really close
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look at this and see whether or not the oceanic white tip needs to be
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What do these, what does this petition look like? Does it have to have a certain amount
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of signatures on or is it more of just a letter from the organization
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saying, you know, here's a case, a use case to
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Yeah, it's definitely not, you know, the typical petition that we think of
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with signatures. It's just, it's basically, it's got to have some certain
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requirements laid out in our regulations requesting
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what action it is. And, um, But
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basically, it's like I said, it's a biological report. So they go through
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the demographics of the species, population status, the threats, whether
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or not current existing regulations are protective enough, and
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going through all of these factors that we lay out in the
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Endangered Species Act, that they have to meet these criteria in
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And generally, what happens from Chelsea's you
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know, when she was in headquarters, they generally, her office would
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send out a request for scientists to be part
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of the review process of the SAS to determine whether or not.
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And so, you know, they had sent, they would send out, you
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know, a letter or email to the Northeast, especially
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all the different science centers from the Hawaii to the Southeast and the Northeast,
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requesting scientists, you know, work with Chelsea and her colleagues, because
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this is a policy issue, but it's also a science issue. on
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evaluating the information that's available. And
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Chelsea and I had worked previously together on the Thresher Shark
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ESA petition. And Chelsea and
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I had a really good working relationship together. And when when
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the petition came out, I was like, yeah, I'll work with Chelsea on that. So. But
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Now, you talked about this start like in 2015. So
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is it this pretty typical to take like nine, 10 years
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So the initial process was started, I believe,
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in 2015 or 2016 when we got the
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petition. That process is just for listing the species to
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begin with. So we have to go through this whole status review
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process. We have about a year to make a decision whether or not
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to propose a species as threatened or endangered first. And then that
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proposal has to go out for public review and comment. Then
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we have another year to finalize that listing determination after
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incorporating all of that information that we got from the public and peer
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reviewers and things like that. So this listing didn't
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actually happen until 2018 is
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when we actually listed oceanic whitefish finally as threatened. Then
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we started commencing the recovery planning process. And, you
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know, with recovery planning, we want to make sure that we're including you
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know, lots of different people, different expertise. We
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had a number of scientists that we brought together in a series of workshops that
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we did both in Miami, Florida. to kind of cover the Atlantic
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portion of the range in the United States, and then also in Honolulu, Hawaii, to cover the
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Pacific range of the species. And we
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brought together fishermen, environmental organizations, academic
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experts, researchers, all kinds of folks to give us input
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in how to develop this plan. So that took a little bit of time as well. And
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then we formulated the draft recovery plan based on
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a lot of that input, which came out I
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think a couple years ago, trying to think of when the draft recovery plan. And
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then from that process, you know, again, it goes out for public comment and review.
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incorporate all of that, and then we can finally adopt a
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recovery plan. So it does take quite a bit of time from, you
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know, a listing to getting a recovery plan in place. We are, as
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an agency, trying to shorten that time frame. But
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especially for a species like this, where it's globally distributed, there
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are lots of different threats and factors going into it. There's a lot of information
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Yeah, and one thing I should say, because I've worked on recovery plans for smalltooth
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sawfish, and You know, most of the small-to-cell fish recovery plan,
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I mean, that was very, you know, located because
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the species was only proposed for listing in,
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you know, in the U.S. waters. But, you know, kudos to Chelsea, you
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know, because it was an internationally listed species, you
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know, she organized workshops, as you said, in Honolulu and
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in Miami. And we brought in international people. We
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brought in people from IOTC, from various international organizations.
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We brought in Shelley Clark. Mariana Colletti. I mean, different people.
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we wanted to make sure that we covered the gamut, not
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just focusing centrically on the US perspective,
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but wholly on the global perspective,
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which may have taken the process a little longer. But in the end,
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because, you know, Chelsea organized all these workshops, we
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had a view of a variety of scientists and policymakers from
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I got to ask you, how does that work when you're dealing with like, it's one
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thing to be doing a policy for in US waters,
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when you take it globally and obviously you're running the whole gamut in
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terms of countries from developed countries to developing
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or very, you know, relatively poor countries. How does that,
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and especially you have this global species, how, how
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does that process work trying to get all of these different countries
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It's not easy, that's for sure. And I think, you know, one thing,
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and John, you know, you can chime in from your perspective, too. But I think
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what, what we didn't want to do was try to reinvent the wheel too
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much. And so in order to kind of break down this
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global species into kind of more manageable pieces.
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We did identify what we call management units
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for oceanic white tip sharks, and basically they're delineated based on
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the boundary lines of regional fishery management organizations. So we
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have the Atlantic Management Unit that falls under ICAT,
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the Indian Ocean Management Unit that falls under IOTC and so
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on and so forth with WCPFC, the
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Western and Central Pacific Fisheries Commission. Sorry, I apologize for any acronyms to
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the listeners. We're rife with them in
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this field. and then the Eastern Pacific
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as well. So from there, we kind of
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tried to lay out all of the different things
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that we would want to accomplish in those areas for
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recovery of the species based on what we knew already
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that were happening in those different regions of the world. So
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we didn't really break it down country by country because that would just be, it
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would be just two in the weeds and not really helpful, but
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looking at broader actions and then on
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the ground activities that we could do in these different management units
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for the species, depending on what threats it's facing, and
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the different partners we would have to try and reach out and collaborate with in
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those different management units. And then also working through those
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existing international mechanisms like the RFMOs, like
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CITES, like CMS, Convention
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on Migratory Species, and things like that. And John, you can totally add on, because you've
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got so much experience in the international arena. on how we've
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tried to bring in those various mechanisms to help complement
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Yeah, and I mean, the follow on Chelsea, I mean, there was just, I totally
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agree with what she had said. And just, you
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know, no, there was so many different international players in this
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development of the recovery plan. You know, Chelsea and I wanted to
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make sure that we had everyone involved from the get
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go when we were developing you know, the criteria for
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recovering oceanic white, and you know, like she said, you know, it's just the RFMOs involved.
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They have their own set of management regulations, you know, oceanic
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white, this isn't on CITES, this isn't on CMS. So we
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were trying to, you know, encompass all those different lines
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of thinking and, you know, thoughts as
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No, he brought up a thing, Chelsea, you have these
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areas beyond international jurisdictions. basically
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in international waters. How does that and this obviously this is a
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species that occurs probably largely in international waters
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How does that work? So I guess what I should
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have started this whole thing out with is that a recovery plan under the Endangered
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Species Act, it's really a guidance document. It's
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not a regulatory action. We're not mandating that anybody do
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these things. This is basically a blueprint for how we would like
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to recover the species so
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that it no longer needs the protections under the Endangered Species Act. So we're
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basically trying to get it from, you know, it's listed as threatened, we
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want to get it to a place where we don't need to have it listed anymore. So this is
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an outlined guidance document showing
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how we think we can get there. So it's for
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anybody around the world, any of these organizations, they can pick it
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up, look at what we've outlined there and, you know, if
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we've identified them as a potential partner or not, anybody can
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pick it up and decide like, okay, we can do this, like we've got funding, we
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can we can do this project or, you know, or use
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it as a resource to support something that they're already trying to
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do, which we have taken some of this to the Western
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and Central Pacific Fisheries Commission, for example, and say, hey, this is a, you know, priority
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in this recovery plan. or as a source
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to get funding for projects that are listed as high priority. So it's
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not something that we're saying, hey, you countries that
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are fishing in this area, you have to do this. We
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don't have the authority to mandate anybody outside of the United States do
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any of these things. But it's just something that's out there. It's to
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help raise awareness. And it's to give folks that
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are trying to do some of this work, some ideas of
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ways that, you know, the United States, anyway, thinks that this
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So as a part, within U.S. waters, is
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some of this actually implemented? Is
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some of this stuff to be sort of like, as you kind of, I think, alluded
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Yeah, I think that's one of the ideas and that was a lot of the feedback we
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got from our workshops was like, the U.S. is definitely going to serve
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as an example to the rest of the world for our
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management and our policies. And John, you know, can speak a lot to you
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know, the management that we have in the Atlantic that has
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been really successful for a number of species or
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just our fisheries management anyway that has served
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as a real good example for the international community.
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And one thing that I will say that did happen as a result of this plan when
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we were in the draft phase, something we implemented in the United States was
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completely prohibiting oceanic white tips in all fishing gears in
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the Atlantic. Originally, it was just for pelagic long lines and then
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As we were coming up with this recovery plan, we said, no, we need to
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really prohibit them in all years. And
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that was something that came, that regulation came as a result of us
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No, I didn't know Chelsea if you wanted to mention the Wire Leader Initiative in Hawaii. I
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mean, this was... definitely something where industry saw
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what was coming and they had the foresight to work with NOAA
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fisheries and hopefully this will be carried. I'll let you, because that's something
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Yeah, that was just another management measure,
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regulation that came out from our office here in Hawaii
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regarding the change in gear to help increase post-release
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survivorship of oceanic white tips. This is kind of a combination of
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you know, things that we had been talking about for recovery. One of the
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things that we had in the plan was investigating different gear types
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to help with at-vessel and post-release mortality. And
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eventually, our fishery here, we mandated
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a change from wire leaders to monofilament to help with,
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you know, bite-offs and sharks being able to get off the line more easily than if
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they were trying to, you know, be be caught with a wire leader and
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most likely have a higher post-release mortality from
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that. So that was something that also kind of came about in
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conjunction with us talking about recovery actions and things we
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need to do in the United States. It was a complementary action
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So this guidance document, when it's done, you enacted it
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through NOAA, through the government. Is
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that what you do? You provide this
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guidance document to other governments so it's more implemented if
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they decide so by Governments and not say nonprofit
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I would say anybody can take it and run with it We
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definitely are, you know showing this as this is a yes. It's a US government
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product. It's a Noah product It's being done through
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the requirements of the Endangered Species Act. It's something that is we're
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supposed to be doing for any species we list under the ESA, we're then
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required to develop a recovery plan, unless we think
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it won't provide a conservation benefit, which is a pretty low bar. But
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as far as you know, having it be used by other governments, you
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know, we certainly, we let folks know that We're
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doing this. We try to get it out, get the word out as much as possible. But there's
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a ton of different actions and activities within
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the plan that are geared towards nonprofits or NGOs or
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other research organizations that, hey, if you've got funding to take
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a look at this particular problem, go for it. You know, we've
396
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Has there been much? I mean, it's funny. I mean, even though I'm on the West Coast
397
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here, I'm more familiar with the stuff. Maybe it's because I know and John and
398
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stuff that goes on in the Atlantic. But has there been much done with
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oceanic white tips out in Hawaii? And
400
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as far as any research goes, anybody looking
401
00:25:41,646 --> 00:25:44,987
Yeah. There's actually a program in Hawaii
402
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called the Hawaii Community Tagging Program, which was started
403
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by a colleague of ours, Dr. Melanie Hutchinson, who was
404
00:25:51,791 --> 00:25:57,254
formerly with NOAA. She's now with the IATTC. Inter-American
405
00:25:57,294 --> 00:26:03,838
Tropical Tuna Commission. Am I getting that acronym right? Sorry,
406
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guys. So, yeah, they've been doing a lot of work in
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Hawaii with satellite and acoustic tagging. I
408
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know, John, you've worked with and talked to Melanie
409
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a lot about that. You could probably give more details on the science side. But yes, there's been
410
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a lot of work. I would say not before that. There may
411
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be some tagging done, but there's a lot of information gaps.
412
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Yeah, I mean, the work that Melanie was doing out in Hawaii was, you
413
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know, getting a lot of information on post-release survivorship, because
414
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actually the Western Central, again, we're
415
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tongue-tied, Western Central Pacific Fishery Management Council,
416
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Commission, no, not council, commission. Yeah, it's the only
417
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one that's done a full stock assessment for Oceanic Whitetip
418
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Shark. None of the other RFMOs have done a full-on stock
419
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assessment for Oceanic Whitetips. And the questions that Chelsea
420
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referred to earlier was, they are prohibited on
421
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all the RFMOs. They have to be released. But the
422
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question is, when they're released, how
423
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many survive. So the work that Melanie was
424
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doing out in Hawaii was instrumental in providing some of the first information
425
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that we could use in the recovery plan, but also in the WCPSC
426
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stock assessment on when, you know, the stock is,
427
00:27:23,938 --> 00:27:27,159
you know, determined to be overfished. We have, we do projections, you know,
428
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and how long is it going to take given certain situations. And
429
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this was a big question is, you know, if they are
430
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prohibited and they have to be released, you know, Are they
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released and then just swim to the bottom and die? Or are they making it?
432
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So Melody's original work was very instrumental in
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helping us formulate the recovery plan, but was also very
434
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instrumental in helping us determine the projections
435
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for stock assessment. Because when the stock assessment was done, some
436
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of the scenarios that were done is saying, okay, 20% survived, 40% survived,
437
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60% survived. And then how long is the population going to
438
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take to recover given these various scenarios? So Hawaii
439
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did one of the, I've been trying to, and
440
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we're starting that work in the Atlantic, but definitely the work that Melanie did
441
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So do you have benchmarks
442
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now set up in this plan? Timelines
443
00:28:29,317 --> 00:28:32,638
Yeah, what we did, Dave, is we set up a series of
444
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scenarios, recognizing that we
445
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may not have a full-on stock assessment, population
446
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assessment for each of the management units that Chelsea mentioned.
447
00:28:44,982 --> 00:28:48,424
We set up a series of recovery criteria based on some alternate
448
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scenarios. Obviously, the panacea is going
449
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to be a full-on stock assessment, but we may not
450
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have the data for that in the Indian Ocean or the Atlantic Ocean,
451
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or even now that they're prohibited, it becomes
452
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a little bit more of a challenge because we don't have tech information anymore because there's
453
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no landing. So, you know, Chelsea and I set up
454
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a series of scenarios based on a
455
00:29:12,711 --> 00:29:16,112
level of criteria, you know, starting off with a stock assessment. Okay,
456
00:29:16,132 --> 00:29:19,833
we have a stock assessment. We want the population to reach this level
457
00:29:20,573 --> 00:29:23,754
in so many years based on the biological parameters of
458
00:29:23,774 --> 00:29:26,915
the species. If that's not available, we go
459
00:29:26,955 --> 00:29:30,756
to the next level. Okay, if a stock assessment is not available, then
460
00:29:30,776 --> 00:29:34,176
we want to look at trends in abundance. If the trends in abundance, like
461
00:29:34,196 --> 00:29:38,245
we did for the IUCN, Dave, you know very well the the
462
00:29:38,565 --> 00:29:42,147
methodology, JARA, that we did for all the different IUCN
463
00:29:42,187 --> 00:29:45,289
assessments, we can potentially use that as
464
00:29:45,309 --> 00:29:48,751
a tool to assess the status of the species. If
465
00:29:48,811 --> 00:29:52,273
that's not available, well then we look at another set of criteria. This
466
00:29:52,334 --> 00:29:55,656
is actually something that Enrique Ortez came up with
467
00:29:55,756 --> 00:29:59,078
when we were working at one of the workshops, is looking at different threat levels.
468
00:29:59,678 --> 00:30:02,940
You know, given the threat levels is this, you know, given
469
00:30:02,980 --> 00:30:07,122
the fish mortality is this, and the biological productivity of the species, what
470
00:30:07,162 --> 00:30:10,464
does the threat level need to be reduced so
471
00:30:10,504 --> 00:30:13,586
the population can recover? So we went through, Chelsea and
472
00:30:13,606 --> 00:30:16,968
I went through a series of like kind of a ladder
473
00:30:17,028 --> 00:30:20,270
structure of this is the top, but if we don't have this,
474
00:30:20,310 --> 00:30:24,132
let's go to this. If we don't have this, let's go to this. If we don't have this, let's go to this. So
475
00:30:24,272 --> 00:30:27,554
we are trying to make the recovery where you have made, you
476
00:30:28,275 --> 00:30:31,744
know, Thank you, Chelsea. The recovery
477
00:30:31,784 --> 00:30:35,045
plan, very flexible, depending on what types of
478
00:30:35,125 --> 00:30:38,846
information that we have. And as Chelsea indicated, the
479
00:30:38,886 --> 00:30:42,107
goal of being on the ESA is to get it off
480
00:30:42,187 --> 00:30:46,308
the ESA. We don't want this to be there in perpetuity. We
481
00:30:46,328 --> 00:30:50,149
want to set up a series of criteria that other countries can use, that
482
00:30:50,169 --> 00:30:53,570
the United States can use, that we can say,
483
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,942
So if you look at the results, say, in a number of
484
00:31:00,002 --> 00:31:03,185
years, and when you look at the, I
485
00:31:03,225 --> 00:31:06,347
guess you go through an assessment again, and it's
486
00:31:06,387 --> 00:31:09,890
increased in the US and US waters, will
487
00:31:10,290 --> 00:31:13,713
that ever, say it's done really well, I know it takes longer
488
00:31:13,753 --> 00:31:17,276
than a few years, but say it's done really well, will
489
00:31:17,316 --> 00:31:20,738
you be able to take it off, say, the list if it gets to that point?
490
00:31:21,579 --> 00:31:26,021
before other countries have found that success? Even
491
00:31:26,061 --> 00:31:29,803
if it's a global species, but it's doing well in US waters, would
492
00:31:29,823 --> 00:31:33,384
the US take them off the endangered species or
493
00:31:35,450 --> 00:31:38,592
Because they've done better in in because of the the actions that have
494
00:31:38,612 --> 00:31:41,954
been taken Yeah, I mean, I'll let Chelsea Chelsea chime in after this because
495
00:31:42,014 --> 00:31:45,156
this is more her expertise than I am But like she said we set up
496
00:31:45,196 --> 00:31:48,658
management units, so it's not just u.s. Waters because this is
497
00:31:49,218 --> 00:31:52,380
right You know Shannon quite tips, you know, maybe found off,
498
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,882
you know, North Carolina in the summer But you know in the winter
499
00:31:55,922 --> 00:31:59,204
they may be off Brazil. So we set up management units. We
500
00:31:59,224 --> 00:32:02,727
have an Atlantic Management Union we have Indian
501
00:32:02,787 --> 00:32:06,691
Ocean Management Unit, we have an Eastern Pacific Management Unit, and
502
00:32:06,731 --> 00:32:10,035
we have a Western Pacific Management Unit. And
503
00:32:10,135 --> 00:32:14,059
what we decided to recover them that three
504
00:32:14,180 --> 00:32:17,283
of the four management units that we have, correct me
505
00:32:17,303 --> 00:32:21,168
if I'm wrong Kelsey, three of those must show recovery
506
00:32:21,248 --> 00:32:25,248
in order for the species to be downlisted, or
507
00:32:25,328 --> 00:32:28,750
in this case, offlisted because they're threatened of the Endangered Species Act.
508
00:32:28,770 --> 00:32:32,193
Because again, it's a global species. It's not just the
509
00:32:34,114 --> 00:32:37,756
Yeah, sorry. I'm really glad you mentioned that. Yeah, we
510
00:32:37,776 --> 00:32:41,939
did fold that into the criteria that all of the criteria
511
00:32:41,979 --> 00:32:45,702
that we've set have to be met in three of four management units. And
512
00:32:46,482 --> 00:32:49,684
one of those has to be one of the Pacific ones. So we
513
00:32:49,725 --> 00:32:53,448
have to have all ocean basins represented showing recovery
514
00:32:53,648 --> 00:32:57,273
in order to, at the species level, be able to delist
515
00:32:57,333 --> 00:33:01,137
it. So with listings
516
00:33:01,177 --> 00:33:04,962
under the Endangered Species Act, there are certain cases where we've divided
517
00:33:04,982 --> 00:33:08,386
up the species into lower taxonomic units
518
00:33:08,446 --> 00:33:12,389
called distinct population segments under the ESA. But
519
00:33:12,429 --> 00:33:15,711
in this case, we didn't have the rationale or the evidence to break
520
00:33:15,791 --> 00:33:19,293
up the global species into those smaller taxonomic levels.
521
00:33:19,473 --> 00:33:23,376
So, yeah, it would have to show that holistic
522
00:33:23,756 --> 00:33:27,058
level of recovery in those management units for us to consider the
523
00:33:28,038 --> 00:33:31,120
Yeah, and those management units, I mean, are not equal. I mean, one of
524
00:33:31,140 --> 00:33:34,222
the things that was very striking to Chelsea and I
525
00:33:34,242 --> 00:33:37,377
when we first started working this together is, The stock assessment in
526
00:33:37,417 --> 00:33:41,121
the Western Central Pacific, I mean, this is a robust, all
527
00:33:41,141 --> 00:33:44,403
the best biologically data show that the population had declined by almost
528
00:33:44,524 --> 00:33:48,007
99%. Wow. It's not a trend. Yeah.
529
00:33:48,147 --> 00:33:51,269
Stock assessment. Wow. And even in the
530
00:33:51,309 --> 00:33:56,105
RFMO, language,
531
00:33:56,185 --> 00:33:59,586
they even indicated that if fishing mortality increases, the
532
00:33:59,626 --> 00:34:03,187
population would go extinct. I mean, when I first read that from
533
00:34:03,227 --> 00:34:06,448
a stock assessment from RFMO, I was pretty much blown away. So,
534
00:34:07,028 --> 00:34:10,549
you know, in the Atlantic, it may not be as
535
00:34:10,669 --> 00:34:14,209
severe as it is in, say, the Indo-Pacific, but we
536
00:34:14,249 --> 00:34:17,770
wanted to make sure we had at least three of those four management units
537
00:34:18,430 --> 00:34:21,851
on the road to recovery before we could declare them no longer
538
00:34:25,423 --> 00:34:28,706
I'm sorry, regional fishery management organizations. We have mentioned
539
00:34:28,726 --> 00:34:32,429
before, I'm sorry for throwing acronyms around. It's okay. ICAT,
540
00:34:33,770 --> 00:34:37,433
IATTC, the various international management
541
00:34:37,493 --> 00:34:41,616
organizations that are primarily responsible for managing tunas and
542
00:34:41,756 --> 00:34:45,519
swordfish, but because sharks are such a significant bycatch
543
00:34:45,659 --> 00:34:49,022
issue for many of them now since the
544
00:34:49,062 --> 00:34:52,272
90s, they are now, you know, the
545
00:34:54,414 --> 00:34:58,837
And these organizations are... Are there any? Oh,
546
00:34:58,877 --> 00:35:02,200
I was just going to, I was just going to clarify that these organizations are to
547
00:35:02,340 --> 00:35:05,943
manage those species on the high seas. So this is to kind of capture,
548
00:35:05,963 --> 00:35:09,506
um, the fishing and things that are happening outside
549
00:35:12,688 --> 00:35:15,830
How many, can I ask, how many of these, uh, have you
550
00:35:15,850 --> 00:35:19,123
done for, for lasso breaks to date? you know, these
551
00:35:19,143 --> 00:35:22,684
endangered species recovery plans. How many, how many elasmobranchs
552
00:35:23,745 --> 00:35:27,206
Oh, that's a good question. I think smalltooth sawfish was the first, right,
553
00:35:27,746 --> 00:35:31,247
Yeah, I worked on smalltooth sawfish. That was the first recovery plan for,
554
00:35:31,267 --> 00:35:34,628
that was actually the first elasmobranch that was listed on the Endangered Species Act.
555
00:35:34,648 --> 00:35:38,589
So smalltooth sawfish, but it was only for the U.S. population. So
556
00:35:38,609 --> 00:35:42,170
it was a bit, I don't want to say easier or less challenging,
557
00:35:42,210 --> 00:35:45,311
but we only had a focus on the U.S. population. When Chelsea and I,
558
00:35:45,371 --> 00:35:48,534
you know, got into the recovery plan for Oceanic white tip, you know, All bets
559
00:35:48,575 --> 00:35:51,891
are off because we had to consider globally. how we
560
00:35:51,951 --> 00:35:55,092
are going to recover the species. So it was a
561
00:35:56,513 --> 00:35:59,834
I think we might be the second recovery plan
562
00:35:59,854 --> 00:36:03,215
that's been adopted for an elasmobranch after
563
00:36:03,255 --> 00:36:06,576
smalltooth sawfish. We have one in development for
564
00:36:06,616 --> 00:36:10,057
giant manta ray. And we've
565
00:36:10,077 --> 00:36:13,358
got a number of other elasmobranchs listed under the Endangered Species
566
00:36:13,438 --> 00:36:16,999
Act, but most of them are entirely foreign species.
567
00:36:17,039 --> 00:36:20,280
They don't occur in U.S. waters at all. And so
568
00:36:20,340 --> 00:36:23,881
we have based on priorities and things that we could do, have decided
569
00:36:23,941 --> 00:36:27,442
that it would be very, you know, the conservation benefit
570
00:36:27,462 --> 00:36:30,643
that completely foreign species would get would not reach that
571
00:36:33,084 --> 00:36:36,405
Yeah, I mean, scallop hammerhead are listed on the Endangered Species
572
00:36:36,485 --> 00:36:40,086
Act, but all the populations are outside U.S. waters, so
573
00:36:40,146 --> 00:36:43,527
we never move forward with developing, with the exception of the Caribbean, because
574
00:36:43,567 --> 00:36:46,861
we have Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. But as Chelsea had
575
00:36:46,881 --> 00:36:50,162
mentioned, due to priorities and other things, we focused on
576
00:36:50,182 --> 00:36:53,323
more species that have more of
577
00:36:56,043 --> 00:37:00,184
Yeah, I guess the thing is, for people listening, it's
578
00:37:00,244 --> 00:37:03,385
not a lot of species that have actually been done. It's only been
579
00:37:03,525 --> 00:37:06,905
the small tooth sawfish and
580
00:37:06,945 --> 00:37:10,566
then this oceanic white tip. So it's definitely a process
581
00:37:10,606 --> 00:37:13,807
and it's not like there's a lot of these things. There's certainly, I
582
00:37:13,827 --> 00:37:17,654
mean, I know species it could certainly be. The addressed
583
00:37:17,714 --> 00:37:20,895
and everything- it always come back like what you can do with
584
00:37:20,915 --> 00:37:24,016
the U. S. waters or versus outside U. S. right as
585
00:37:24,116 --> 00:37:27,317
well- as you know Dave there's many back
586
00:37:28,997 --> 00:37:32,298
List that were listed in the park that Ava probably talked about last time.
587
00:37:32,718 --> 00:37:35,819
That elicited on the nature species act but they're not found in waters and it's
588
00:37:35,839 --> 00:37:40,164
just indicated just their resources and time you know we can't. develop
589
00:37:40,184 --> 00:37:43,787
a recovery plan for species that are primarily found in Argentina or
590
00:37:45,368 --> 00:37:48,671
And as Chelsea said,
591
00:37:50,312 --> 00:37:53,695
It would be somewhat, here's a blueprint covering a
592
00:37:54,296 --> 00:37:57,938
species of skate that's found in Argentina. Here,
593
00:38:01,301 --> 00:38:04,444
Well, obviously a lot of the
594
00:38:04,484 --> 00:38:07,706
stuff that I do, because I go to a lot of these countries, as
595
00:38:07,766 --> 00:38:11,018
you know, John, Most of these people have no idea if you bring
596
00:38:11,058 --> 00:38:14,521
up an angel shark or some of these rays, they
597
00:38:14,541 --> 00:38:17,804
can't even really identify them. Ironically, the
598
00:38:17,844 --> 00:38:21,267
fishermen know them, but if you talk to some of the NGOs and the fisheries people
599
00:38:21,287 --> 00:38:24,889
there, they're just like, it's a shark, or it's a ray, and
600
00:38:26,391 --> 00:38:29,713
It's still same in the U.S., Dave, because we're still
601
00:38:32,235 --> 00:38:36,485
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well,
602
00:38:36,505 --> 00:38:39,889
thanks. I gotta say, thank you guys for coming on and talking about
603
00:38:39,949 --> 00:38:43,293
this project. I don't know if you have anything you'd like to say, kind
604
00:38:43,333 --> 00:38:46,536
of to wrap up. What's the future plans now? You got
605
00:38:46,556 --> 00:38:50,821
this recovery plan together? Any big
606
00:38:51,842 --> 00:38:55,446
Well, from the science perspective, I mean, I'm
607
00:38:55,466 --> 00:38:59,037
working with the more charitable Foundation has been very
608
00:38:59,097 --> 00:39:02,378
instrumental in providing funding to do a lot of work in the Bahamas, some
609
00:39:02,398 --> 00:39:06,020
of the initial work that Lucy Howie did and now Ben
610
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:10,022
Carey Ford. Chelsea and I have been there
611
00:39:10,103 --> 00:39:13,548
several times. We've been fortunate enough to be taking part in that research. That
612
00:39:13,568 --> 00:39:17,270
research is going to continue now. We have funding from NOAA, so
613
00:39:17,710 --> 00:39:21,232
we're hoping that will continue the work that the research that's being conducted
614
00:39:21,252 --> 00:39:25,294
in Hawaii on post-release survivorship. And
615
00:39:25,334 --> 00:39:29,376
then again, ICAT is now actually funding
616
00:39:30,136 --> 00:39:33,878
satellite tag work that I'm using to put on
617
00:39:34,138 --> 00:39:37,680
oceanic white tips that are caught in the U.S. pelagic longline fishery to get information
618
00:39:37,700 --> 00:39:41,382
on post-release survivorship. So we'll have that bit of information that
619
00:39:41,742 --> 00:39:44,965
potentially will complement what's been already done in Hawaii. Because as
620
00:39:45,005 --> 00:39:48,287
you guys know, one longline fishery in the Pacific may not
621
00:39:48,407 --> 00:39:51,930
fish the same way as in the Atlantic. So we may have differences.
622
00:39:52,030 --> 00:39:55,333
And now Chelsea and I are now actually reaching out to colleagues we
623
00:39:55,373 --> 00:39:58,716
have in the Indian Ocean Tuna Commission to expand our
624
00:39:58,776 --> 00:40:01,979
work over there. So we're going to be busy over the next few
625
00:40:08,486 --> 00:40:11,611
Yeah, no, it's just like a species. It's my, you know, one of my sharks that I
626
00:40:11,651 --> 00:40:14,877
fell in love with, you know, my favorite shark. So it was in my, we
627
00:40:20,172 --> 00:40:23,374
I would say that the next step really, once
628
00:40:23,394 --> 00:40:26,756
we have a recovery plan in place, you know, when John talks about
629
00:40:26,776 --> 00:40:30,338
a lot of the science and the research, I mean, those are some of those activities
630
00:40:30,398 --> 00:40:34,021
that we've outlined in what we call our implementation strategy. So
631
00:40:34,061 --> 00:40:37,943
it's a separate document that really outlines all of the on-the-ground
632
00:40:38,163 --> 00:40:42,206
activities that we want to do in order to support achieving the
633
00:40:42,226 --> 00:40:45,648
goals of the recovery plan and getting those criteria met. So really
634
00:40:45,688 --> 00:40:49,610
right now, we're kind of going to be shifting into that implementation phase.
635
00:40:49,630 --> 00:40:53,651
So this whole time, we've been doing this planning, we've been getting this document together, seeking
636
00:40:53,711 --> 00:40:57,071
input, getting feedback, involving a lot of people. And now
637
00:40:57,111 --> 00:41:00,432
we really want to start implementing the plan. So we can get
638
00:41:00,472 --> 00:41:03,953
those projects on the ground and start making some progress towards
639
00:41:04,593 --> 00:41:07,734
Yeah, yeah, to add on that, it's, you know, we're just a handful of
640
00:41:07,794 --> 00:41:11,155
scientists, you know, there's a small group of us at FIU and
641
00:41:11,195 --> 00:41:14,496
Mo that are doing most of the work in the Atlantic and some people
642
00:41:14,516 --> 00:41:17,935
in the Pacific. So anyone out there, you know, look at the recovery
643
00:41:17,975 --> 00:41:21,703
plan if there's some research focus that you feel can
644
00:41:21,783 --> 00:41:25,236
be helped. I mean, can be added to help with the recovery plan,
645
00:41:25,256 --> 00:41:28,558
you know, write grants and stuff because, you know, it's one
646
00:41:28,578 --> 00:41:32,359
of these species that really has, you know, kind
647
00:41:32,399 --> 00:41:35,901
of slipped through the cracks a little bit. And we are hoping that,
648
00:41:36,161 --> 00:41:39,323
you know, now with more broader reaches with
649
00:41:39,343 --> 00:41:42,884
the recovery plan and what Chelsea outlined, as I said, about outlining an invitation plan
650
00:41:42,904 --> 00:41:46,266
where hopefully more people will get on board and start to try to, you
651
00:41:49,252 --> 00:41:52,534
Sounds like a great opportunity for some graduate work for some
652
00:41:56,918 --> 00:42:00,300
Great. Well, thank you both for coming on the program today.
653
00:42:00,340 --> 00:42:03,622
And we'll definitely have to have each of you back on to do a more deep dive into your
654
00:42:04,063 --> 00:42:07,165
careers and your personal journeys. But thanks for coming on and
655
00:42:11,817 --> 00:42:15,201
Thank you Chelsea and John for joining us on today's
656
00:42:15,301 --> 00:42:18,765
episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Dave, Oceanic White
657
00:42:18,785 --> 00:42:22,810
Tips, global population, global recovery plan. I
658
00:42:22,850 --> 00:42:25,993
find it really interesting when a government document comes out
659
00:42:26,014 --> 00:42:30,295
and they're talking about a global recovery plan. you
660
00:42:30,315 --> 00:42:33,617
know, how do you, how does, like, I just, I thought that was interesting of how they talked
661
00:42:33,657 --> 00:42:36,840
about it, like what they suggested, and even though that they suggest things
662
00:42:36,860 --> 00:42:40,362
that may not happen, that's gotta be frustrating from
663
00:42:43,164 --> 00:42:46,987
Yeah, it is, because, you know, you have things
664
00:42:47,007 --> 00:42:50,129
within, you know, the national jurisdictions of countries where you go out
665
00:42:50,169 --> 00:42:53,331
like 200 miles off the coast, you have some, you can
666
00:42:53,371 --> 00:42:56,593
have some authority, depending on the country, to
667
00:42:56,633 --> 00:43:00,188
do something. But when you get out into the international waters, areas
668
00:43:00,268 --> 00:43:03,529
beyond national jurisdictions. They
669
00:43:03,549 --> 00:43:07,231
call them RFMOs as well, regional fisheries
670
00:43:07,291 --> 00:43:10,652
management areas. That's a really
671
00:43:10,732 --> 00:43:14,474
tough nut to monitor and to
672
00:43:14,554 --> 00:43:17,715
follow. And of course, the oceanic white tips, the big thing
673
00:43:17,735 --> 00:43:21,817
with them are the fins. They're huge in the fin trade. And
674
00:43:21,917 --> 00:43:25,178
so when you're out there in the ocean, the high seas like
675
00:43:25,238 --> 00:43:28,813
that, You can take a lot more fins than if you're, if you're not taking the carcasses,
676
00:43:28,833 --> 00:43:32,155
you're just taking the fins. You can take a lot of sharks if you're just taking the fins.
677
00:43:32,175 --> 00:43:36,096
So that's a huge concern. That's why there's a lot of areas they talk about, uh,
678
00:43:36,136 --> 00:43:39,498
these populations that have declined significantly. And,
679
00:43:39,758 --> 00:43:42,959
uh, so there's, so they're, they're definitely of a concern. It's
680
00:43:42,999 --> 00:43:46,320
interesting that they commented on during the show about the one,
681
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,782
uh, a movie we talked about once a while, blue water, white death,
682
00:43:49,842 --> 00:43:53,263
about how there was a lot of oceanic white tips off Durban, South
683
00:43:53,403 --> 00:43:56,673
Africa. And of course I shared a story that's. They,
684
00:43:56,833 --> 00:44:00,376
that is, I do recall living there, that they were at one time fairly,
685
00:44:00,436 --> 00:44:03,678
very common out there. And of course, oceanic white tips are
686
00:44:03,738 --> 00:44:07,060
also one of the four or five most dangerous sharks in the world,
687
00:44:07,100 --> 00:44:10,322
that they can be very aggressive. And if you're a person that happens
688
00:44:10,342 --> 00:44:13,605
to be stuck at sea, their very famous World
689
00:44:13,625 --> 00:44:17,047
War II incident, the USS Indianapolis, which was sank
690
00:44:17,407 --> 00:44:20,870
in the sea, it had 900 survivors of which only about
691
00:44:21,050 --> 00:44:24,246
300 survived the time, in the sea there
692
00:44:24,266 --> 00:44:27,770
and a lot of, a number of people were attacked by sharks and they figure it was probably mostly
693
00:44:27,830 --> 00:44:31,174
oceanic white tips. Cause that's tips to be where you find them in the open
694
00:44:34,675 --> 00:44:37,737
Yeah, that makes the danger a
695
00:44:38,318 --> 00:44:41,460
lot more. But the concern here is the
696
00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:45,523
conservation aspect and why they're getting lower
697
00:44:45,583 --> 00:44:49,346
and what that recovery plan is. And these recovery plans are necessary. Somebody's
698
00:44:49,366 --> 00:44:53,469
got to start them and somebody's got to share them and then let the conversations you
699
00:44:53,489 --> 00:44:57,031
know, grow from there and, and, and make sure that other countries
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00:44:57,071 --> 00:45:00,933
are involved that where these oceanic white tips take place, uh,
701
00:45:01,033 --> 00:45:04,134
and be able to, uh, work together to, you know, come up
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00:45:04,174 --> 00:45:07,396
with management plans that work for everybody. Or, you know, maybe
703
00:45:09,037 --> 00:45:12,699
Right. I mean, a lot of it was, as he mentioned, were suggestions they put out for these different countries.
704
00:45:12,779 --> 00:45:16,020
And of course, these are high seas, so it's gonna be a little different than
705
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,828
a lot of the, oftentimes we talk about food security and a lot of these, poorer
706
00:45:19,928 --> 00:45:23,830
countries and stuff. And that, you know, those are mostly going to be mostly coastal fisheries, you
707
00:45:23,850 --> 00:45:27,211
know, whereas a oceanic white tip, you have to get, you have to get fairly far
708
00:45:27,271 --> 00:45:31,533
offshore. And it's probably not going to, I don't want to say it's coastal
709
00:45:31,553 --> 00:45:35,115
fishery won't be impacted, but probably not as much. It's going to be more like high seas
710
00:45:35,835 --> 00:45:39,376
fisheries, but you have issues of like, you know, other countries coming into
711
00:45:39,436 --> 00:45:42,718
fishing, uh, in the international waters of, of
712
00:45:42,798 --> 00:45:45,939
poor countries that don't have a coast guard. They don't have a Navy to send out there to,
713
00:45:46,985 --> 00:45:50,266
have these ships removed. They come in and fish in their international waters and that, and that's
714
00:45:50,326 --> 00:45:54,308
impacting again, the oceanic white tip populations. And,
715
00:45:54,328 --> 00:45:58,149
uh, you know, I think another thing too, is we, you know, we don't really know a lot about the population structure
716
00:45:58,749 --> 00:46:01,830
of a lot of these oceanic white tip sharks globally. You know,
717
00:46:01,850 --> 00:46:05,251
in some areas, like in the U S you'll have a little more information, uh,
718
00:46:05,271 --> 00:46:08,453
probably in the Gulf of Mexico, Hawaiian islands, but you
719
00:46:08,473 --> 00:46:11,954
get in a lot of these areas, like in the Indian ocean, it's really hard
720
00:46:12,054 --> 00:46:15,555
to, to get a good handle on what's, what's the population structure like.
721
00:46:16,241 --> 00:46:19,584
And so there's a lot of, uh, kind of gosh, gosh, and by golly, what, what
722
00:46:19,605 --> 00:46:23,288
are they, what are they, what's the population like out here? Yeah. So
723
00:46:23,308 --> 00:46:26,712
it was fascinating to hear it. I think it was, hopefully it was an interesting episode
724
00:46:26,732 --> 00:46:29,855
for people to kind of get a little peek behind the scenes of what goes on
725
00:46:29,895 --> 00:46:33,418
when they do these, um, these types of recovery
726
00:46:33,458 --> 00:46:36,762
plans, which this is really like the first one they've done for a shark.
727
00:46:36,782 --> 00:46:40,011
They've done one for the sawfish. that John mentioned as
728
00:46:43,235 --> 00:46:46,700
Oh, which is nice. It's great to be able to have these recovery
729
00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:50,044
plans in place. Just going back to your high seas, you know, I think this is something
730
00:46:50,104 --> 00:46:53,849
for the, the oceanic white tip will benefit from a high seas treaty. you
731
00:46:53,869 --> 00:46:57,112
know, that's being hopefully ratified by a good number
732
00:46:57,132 --> 00:47:00,375
of countries. I think they need like 60 some odd to ratify it. So
733
00:47:00,815 --> 00:47:04,218
check if your country is ratifying it. I know Canada hasn't ratified
734
00:47:04,258 --> 00:47:07,521
it yet. I'm hoping they'll do it soon. But that's going to be something
735
00:47:07,541 --> 00:47:10,904
that's going to play an important part in this Oceanic White
736
00:47:10,924 --> 00:47:14,187
Tip global distribution and the recovery plan. So make sure your
737
00:47:14,227 --> 00:47:17,870
country's doing that. So talk to your local officials. But
738
00:47:18,210 --> 00:47:21,553
Dave, thanks so much. And we appreciate John and Chelsea
739
00:47:21,573 --> 00:47:25,296
for coming on the podcast to be able to share this this important report with
740
00:47:25,476 --> 00:47:28,659
us. We really appreciate it. We'll put a link if we have the
741
00:47:28,679 --> 00:47:31,881
chance to their their socials as well as if we can
742
00:47:31,921 --> 00:47:35,284
to the report. And Dave, if people want to get a hold of you and
743
00:47:37,766 --> 00:47:41,149
It's on Instagram. It's Lost Shark Guy, on
744
00:47:41,329 --> 00:47:44,599
ex Lost Shark Guy, Facebook Lost Sharks. And
745
00:47:44,900 --> 00:47:48,745
yeah, please go to our YouTube channel, Beyond Jaws Podcast,
746
00:47:48,785 --> 00:47:52,329
and subscribe. And please leave us a message anywhere
747
00:47:52,389 --> 00:47:55,501
on our social media. We love hearing from you. hearing what
748
00:47:56,502 --> 00:48:00,005
Absolutely. Thank you so much. And we appreciate everybody for listening to
749
00:48:00,045 --> 00:48:03,268
this podcast and the continued loyalty and listening to this podcast. We
750
00:48:03,288 --> 00:48:06,671
really appreciate that. And thank you so much for joining us on this bonus episode
751
00:48:06,771 --> 00:48:10,214
of the Beyond Jaws podcast for Andrew and I, or Andrew and I, for
752
00:48:10,254 --> 00:48:13,477
Dave and I. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. We'll talk to
