AI-Powered Conservation: The Future of Coral Reef Protection with Andy Ridley

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10 years ago, the Great Barrier Reef, the

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largest barrier reef in the world, one of

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the eight wonders of the world bleached,

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like 93% of it bleached.

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And then the year

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after it bleached again.

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And then it's bleached a number of times

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after that, some of it recouping.

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Other times, other

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places did not recoup as much.

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And so we're continuing to see that

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degradation of the Great Barrier Reef.

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How do you solve that problem?

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You need more monitoring.

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You need more data to help managers

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understand the reef more, understand

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where the most vulnerable

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pieces are and how you get that.

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How do you get that data?

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Like you got to remember that the Great

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Barrier Reef is the size

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of the US coast, the West

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Coast.

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So if you go from the top of the border

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of Canada and the bottom

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of the top of the border

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at Mexico, that's the entire coastline.

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That's the entire size, the

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length of the Great Barrier Reef.

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How do you get all that data?

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We use these days with technology.

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You use citizen science and you use AI.

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And we're going to talk about that on

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today's episode of the How

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to Protect the Ocean podcast

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because we have the founding CEO of

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Citizens of the Reef, Andy

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Ridley, who's here to talk

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about his organization and what they've

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done to combine AI and

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citizen scientists to be

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able to create this huge database of data

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and be able to do

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what people haven't been

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able to do in a while and provide data

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for management models

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that are really helping

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out.

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So I'm going to talk about that on

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today's episode and start the show.

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Hey, everybody, welcome back to another

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exciting episode of the How

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to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is

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the podcast where you find out what's

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happening with the ocean, how you can

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speak up for the ocean, what you can do

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to live for a better

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ocean by taking action.

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And action is what we're going to be

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talking about today because

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Andy Ridley is here today.

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He is the founding CEO

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of Citizens of the Reef.

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And he's here to talk about what he took

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when he first heard about the barrier

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reef, the Great Barrier Reef,

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bleaching 10 years ago, took that sort of

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down moment and said, I'm going to turn

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it into something positive.

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I'm going to turn it

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into something optimistic.

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He was a serial entrepreneur before that.

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He came back to Australia where he's

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from, from the Netherlands and was like,

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I want to do something

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good for the barrier reef.

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Came up with Citizens of the Reef with a

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couple of other mates.

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And look at that. I'm

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already talking Australian.

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I'm saying mates. Never mind.

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But I am.

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I'm really impressed with what him and

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his group were able to accomplish and

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have been able to accomplish

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using AI and citizen scientists.

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This is something where I can just

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imagine you want to do something for the

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ocean and you can do it from your own

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home, wherever you are in the world and

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just look at an image and categorize

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reefs into three categories.

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Right. One of the three categories or

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maybe multiple categories using AI.

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So it basically takes a snapshot.

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Like people take pictures of the reef

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that gets sent to you.

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It comes up on your phone and you just

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kind of look at it and you say, OK, look

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at this outline that they I did.

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Is that a branching coral,

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a boulder coral or whatever?

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And then you just

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click and you confirm it.

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And then five other people get to see the

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same image and they click and confirm it.

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Right. So five people total.

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They get to click and confirm it.

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That's pretty

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incredible that you can do it.

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And you can just do that within minutes.

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Imagine doom scrolling for three hours on

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TikTok and you're like,

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ah, where the time go.

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But imagine you did that for like five to

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10 minutes, looking at a series of photos

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to be able to say, hey, yeah, like this

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is this is this type of coral.

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This is this type of coral.

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This is this type of coral.

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And then you're you're helping the Great

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Barrier Reef recover and be able to maybe

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manage even better than it is now.

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And hopefully stop from being bleached or

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stop from from dying off.

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And we're seeing each and every year.

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Just imagine that.

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Imagine taking something from your own

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living room or from your bathroom or from

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your walkout or from your commute.

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And you're just on your phone and you're

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helping the Great Barrier Reef and you're

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staring at images of the ocean.

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So you're connecting with the ocean

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halfway across the world or maybe you're

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on the coastline or

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wherever you are in the world.

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I think it's an amazing thing.

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I want you to hear this interview because

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Andy's just he's so inspiring for the

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work that he's been able to do.

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Such a creative

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genius in my in my opinion.

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And I just love for you

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to hear this interview.

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So here's the interview

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with Andrew Andy Ridley.

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He is the founding CEO

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of Citizens of the Reef.

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Enjoy the interview.

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And I will talk to you after.

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Hey Andy.

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Welcome to the How to

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Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Are you ready to talk

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about corals and conservation?

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Oh hey Andrew.

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Really nice to see

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you and you definitely.

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All right.

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I'm looking forward to this.

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This has been I know it's been on the on

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the docket for a while.

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We've planned this interview and I've

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been doing a lot of research.

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I've been doing it.

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It's been a lot of fun to dive in to

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Citizens of the Reef, which is your

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organization, which is the founding CEO.

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And so I'm looking forward to talking

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just about corals and conservation and

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where we're at with conservation and why

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you decided to put your two feet in and

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say, hey, look, we need

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to we need to help corals.

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We need to help them.

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You've got we're going to talk about AI.

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We're going to talk about citizen science

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and how AI has improved citizen science.

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We're going to talk a lot about the work

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you've done, some of the successes, some

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of the challenges that you're facing.

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And we're just going to

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get into all sorts of things.

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But before we do, Andy, why don't you

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just let the audience know

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who you are and what you do?

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Well, I am Andy.

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I live in I live in

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Cairns in northern Australia.

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So just just a few kilometers to my left

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is the Great Barrier Reef.

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Beautiful.

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And so we're based up here in Cairns.

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So Great Barrier Reef is very big.

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I'll give you a give

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you a kind of an idea.

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If you put the Great Barrier Reef up

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alongside the USA, it would go from above

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the border with Canada to

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below the border with Mexico.

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So it's very bad.

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We're sort of about the third from the

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top is where we're based.

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Yeah. And we have started citizens eight

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years ago and it was off the back of I

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know your your listeners will

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have will know all about us.

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But we had these two very, very serious

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sequential bleaching on the Great Barrier

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Reef back in 2016 2017.

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And I think everyone kind of went into a

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state of shock to see what had happened

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and what was happening.

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I think the message that went around the

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world was the Great

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Barrier Reef had died.

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It hadn't died, but it

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was incredibly serious.

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It was like 90 some odd percent. Right.

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That bleached. I think is what it was. I

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think that was the headline.

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Yes. It's sort of spot it.

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So it's so in the northern end, there was

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really, really significant bleaching.

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And as you know, you know, with

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bleaching, you get you get mortality if

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it's there for a long while.

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If the water remains hot and it's kind of

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doldrums kind of weather conditions,

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you'll start to get high

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mortality of the coral.

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But some parts of it did come back.

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Yeah. I think on the top of the reefs,

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you know, like the reef flat, you got on

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a very, very high

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levels of mortality coral.

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But anyway, we said we there was a sort

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of an emergency

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conference held in Townsville.

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Which is a city about four hours south of

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Cairns held by the Marine Park Authority.

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All of some of the top

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scientists were there.

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Yeah.

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And everybody was there.

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It's kind of like this

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almost a palpable sense of panic.

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Yeah.

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And that really was basically the

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question was, well, what

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are we going to do about it?

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And one of the things that came out of

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that was we need much bigger data, much

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more information on what's going on

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across the whole of the system.

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And actually same same thing across all

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of tropical reefs around the world.

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And that's kind of where

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citizens sort of started.

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How would we do that?

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Knowing that we'll never have a billion

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dollars to build a research for Tila.

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How do we do that with, you know, the

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smell of an Ollie rag,

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which is kind of all we had.

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And that's kind of

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where citizens started.

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Well, this is incredible because, you

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know, to go to be inspired so much by

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such a disaster, like such a pessimistic

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thing that that's happened, right?

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When you see the Great Barrier Reef,

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which is like one of

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the wonders of the world.

277
01:07:41,666 --> 01:07:43,833
It's great. It's gorgeous.

278
01:07:44,250 --> 01:07:46,166
People travel there, you know, just to

279
01:07:46,166 --> 01:07:47,875
see it, you know, on a regular

280
01:07:47,875 --> 01:07:49,708
basis from all over the world.

281
01:07:50,166 --> 01:07:51,833
And then it goes, it bleaches like the

282
01:07:51,833 --> 01:07:53,416
whole thing, you know, especially in the

283
01:07:53,416 --> 01:07:55,458
north where it's even more remote.

284
01:07:55,666 --> 01:07:57,458
You can argue and you're just like,

285
01:07:57,458 --> 01:07:58,375
what's going on here?

286
01:07:58,375 --> 01:07:59,333
Like, how do we do this?

287
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:03,166
Now, let me put me in a situation like

288
01:08:03,166 --> 01:08:04,791
what were you feeling at that point?

289
01:08:04,791 --> 01:08:07,125
What were you doing before this started?

290
01:08:08,125 --> 01:08:09,791
Were you still involved in environmental

291
01:08:09,791 --> 01:08:10,666
things or because like what made you feel like, you know,

292
01:08:11,666 --> 01:08:12,958
you're going to go boom, no,

293
01:08:12,958 --> 01:08:14,000
we need to start something.

294
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:14,666
We need to do something.

295
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:17,041
Yeah, I think it really was

296
01:08:17,041 --> 01:08:18,208
driven by the event for me.

297
01:08:18,458 --> 01:08:21,625
So in I was actually working in Amsterdam

298
01:08:21,625 --> 01:08:23,375
on circular economy.

299
01:08:23,375 --> 01:08:24,500
I was running a circular economy

300
01:08:24,500 --> 01:08:25,666
organization called circular economy.

301
01:08:26,208 --> 01:08:28,708
And I'd previously worked on I'd started

302
01:08:28,708 --> 01:08:30,041
a project called Earth Out, which is the

303
01:08:30,041 --> 01:08:31,750
sort of lights out in cities all over the

304
01:08:31,750 --> 01:08:33,291
world that that campaign.

305
01:08:33,291 --> 01:08:35,041
So I was always I've been in working in

306
01:08:35,041 --> 01:08:36,791
environment so for a long while.

307
01:08:36,791 --> 01:08:38,500
But as a me personally,

308
01:08:38,500 --> 01:08:39,541
passionately love diving.

309
01:08:39,666 --> 01:08:40,833
I love the great barrier reef is one of

310
01:08:40,833 --> 01:08:43,166
my favorite places on the planet.

311
01:08:43,416 --> 01:08:45,208
Maybe even my favorite most favorite

312
01:08:45,208 --> 01:08:46,000
place on the planet.

313
01:08:46,500 --> 01:08:48,000
So I was in Amsterdam when the first of

314
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:49,083
those big bleaching has happened.

315
01:08:49,541 --> 01:08:52,500
And I'm 54 an hour when this happened.

316
01:08:52,500 --> 01:08:53,875
I'd been 44 or something.

317
01:08:54,166 --> 01:08:57,166
But yeah, my team that worked with me, I

318
01:08:57,166 --> 01:08:59,041
had about 30 people in that team and

319
01:08:59,041 --> 01:09:00,208
they're all much younger than me.

320
01:09:00,500 --> 01:09:01,208
And you could see the

321
01:09:01,208 --> 01:09:02,166
shock on their faces.

322
01:09:02,416 --> 01:09:04,291
These are like, essentially 20 year old

323
01:09:04,291 --> 01:09:06,750
30 year olds in in in Amsterdam from all

324
01:09:06,750 --> 01:09:07,625
over the world, all working

325
01:09:07,625 --> 01:09:08,666
on circular economy stuff.

326
01:09:09,666 --> 01:09:11,208
The great barrier reef had died, which is

327
01:09:11,208 --> 01:09:13,666
what it said on Twitter, right? Yeah.

328
01:09:14,375 --> 01:09:17,666
Was you could just see how emotionally it

329
01:09:17,666 --> 01:09:18,583
was affecting people.

330
01:09:18,583 --> 01:09:19,541
It was just like stunned.

331
01:09:20,125 --> 01:09:21,541
Imagine this extraordinary place.

332
01:09:22,041 --> 01:09:23,208
Now, thankfully, that

333
01:09:23,208 --> 01:09:24,500
wasn't totally the case.

334
01:09:25,208 --> 01:09:26,291
A lot of it survived.

335
01:09:28,250 --> 01:09:30,875
But some friends of mine were working on

336
01:09:30,875 --> 01:09:34,458
a project up in back in Australia, which

337
01:09:34,458 --> 01:09:37,500
was, you know, around, you know, how do

338
01:09:37,500 --> 01:09:38,666
you engage people in conservation on the great barrier reef and.

339
01:09:39,833 --> 01:09:41,416
They're asking my advice on it.

340
01:09:41,416 --> 01:09:42,833
And I was being really irritating and

341
01:09:42,833 --> 01:09:43,791
offering lots of advice.

342
01:09:44,666 --> 01:09:45,708
And they eventually went, oh, why don't

343
01:09:45,708 --> 01:09:46,791
you come and start this thing up?

344
01:09:46,791 --> 01:09:48,416
So that's kind of how I kind of got back

345
01:09:48,416 --> 01:09:51,708
to Australia, got the thing got rolling.

346
01:09:51,708 --> 01:09:53,375
And then within a couple of weeks, we've

347
01:09:53,375 --> 01:09:54,166
been back in Australia.

348
01:09:54,166 --> 01:09:55,625
The second of the bleaching has happened.

349
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:56,916
Right. Right. And I

350
01:09:56,916 --> 01:09:58,000
remember being out on the reef.

351
01:09:58,416 --> 01:10:01,958
I was out on more reef about 60 k's of 60

352
01:10:01,958 --> 01:10:04,041
kilometres off Cairns offshore.

353
01:10:04,583 --> 01:10:05,666
So right on the outer reef here.

354
01:10:05,666 --> 01:10:09,333
And you can literally see the soft coral

355
01:10:09,333 --> 01:10:10,916
kind of peeling off the

356
01:10:10,916 --> 01:10:12,875
off the off the bedrock.

357
01:10:13,125 --> 01:10:14,416
And you're like, it was

358
01:10:14,416 --> 01:10:16,666
probably one of the most horrific.

359
01:10:16,666 --> 01:10:18,625
Yeah. Alarming.

360
01:10:18,625 --> 01:10:19,416
You know, it's just an

361
01:10:19,416 --> 01:10:20,833
it's melt, smelt of death.

362
01:10:21,416 --> 01:10:22,166
It was shocking.

363
01:10:23,208 --> 01:10:24,125
Now that that one in the

364
01:10:24,125 --> 01:10:25,791
water smelt even on the water.

365
01:10:25,791 --> 01:10:26,041
Totally.

366
01:10:26,666 --> 01:10:30,291
And there was a lot of

367
01:10:30,291 --> 01:10:31,291
kind of denial about it.

368
01:10:31,291 --> 01:10:32,416
Like a lot of people sort of like we

369
01:10:32,416 --> 01:10:33,791
can't talk about it because it's tourism

370
01:10:33,791 --> 01:10:34,666
and they're all kind of fair.

371
01:10:35,666 --> 01:10:37,625
People have their livelihoods built on on

372
01:10:37,625 --> 01:10:39,083
this, you know, amazing place.

373
01:10:39,875 --> 01:10:41,833
But I think that what that did for us and

374
01:10:41,833 --> 01:10:43,416
with the Citizen Project was going, well,

375
01:10:43,416 --> 01:10:46,291
how like we're all talking about it.

376
01:10:46,291 --> 01:10:47,291
You can sign 100 petitions

377
01:10:47,291 --> 01:10:48,208
and not make a difference.

378
01:10:49,041 --> 01:10:51,416
What do we what are we going to do here

379
01:10:51,416 --> 01:10:52,958
right now at a very practical level?

380
01:10:53,666 --> 01:10:55,125
And as I was saying, you know, there's

381
01:10:55,125 --> 01:10:56,500
that conference was held in Townsville.

382
01:10:56,750 --> 01:10:58,083
And one of the biggest things that came

383
01:10:58,083 --> 01:10:59,083
out of it is there's just not enough

384
01:10:59,083 --> 01:11:00,750
information about what's going on,

385
01:11:00,750 --> 01:11:01,291
particularly given

386
01:11:01,291 --> 01:11:02,500
it's such a large area.

387
01:11:02,833 --> 01:11:04,666
Same size as Germany or Japan.

388
01:11:05,666 --> 01:11:07,000
It's a massive area. So we thought,

389
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:08,541
right, well, yeah, we bought some of that

390
01:11:08,541 --> 01:11:11,166
crowd economy, shared economy, Earth Hour

391
01:11:11,166 --> 01:11:14,250
lessons and all that into it and started

392
01:11:14,250 --> 01:11:16,291
to build this kind of motley flotilla of

393
01:11:16,291 --> 01:11:18,458
boats that turned into, I guess, one of

394
01:11:18,458 --> 01:11:20,625
the biggest research flotillas in around,

395
01:11:20,625 --> 01:11:23,291
you know, and it's all run by locals and

396
01:11:23,291 --> 01:11:24,875
whether it be traditional and arrangers

397
01:11:24,875 --> 01:11:27,625
or tourism vessels or dive boats or even

398
01:11:27,625 --> 01:11:29,083
the odd super you can get lucky.

399
01:11:29,666 --> 01:11:30,666
And that's how we kind of started the thing.

400
01:11:30,666 --> 01:11:33,791
So so you were right off the bat. I know

401
01:11:33,791 --> 01:11:35,541
that's in the name citizens of the reef,

402
01:11:35,541 --> 01:11:37,458
right? That's a that's a big part of it,

403
01:11:37,458 --> 01:11:39,000
where it's like, let's bring everybody

404
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:40,791
together and let's let's try and solve

405
01:11:40,791 --> 01:11:42,625
this, like together, let's just figure

406
01:11:42,625 --> 01:11:45,041
out, we need we need more data, we need,

407
01:11:45,041 --> 01:11:47,166
we need more monitoring, we need

408
01:11:47,166 --> 01:11:48,875
information, as you mentioned before,

409
01:11:48,875 --> 01:11:50,083
right, that was the big those are the

410
01:11:50,083 --> 01:11:51,708
conclusions that came that came out of

411
01:11:51,708 --> 01:11:53,416
it's such a large place, you need to

412
01:11:53,416 --> 01:11:53,666
cover a lot of grounds.

413
01:11:53,666 --> 01:11:57,666
How, how did you build that? Did you

414
01:11:57,666 --> 01:11:59,666
build that community quickly? You know,

415
01:11:59,666 --> 01:12:02,166
where you had this flotilla of boats and

416
01:12:02,166 --> 01:12:04,000
stuff like, and how did that start?

417
01:12:04,875 --> 01:12:06,166
That's a really good question. So the

418
01:12:06,166 --> 01:12:10,666
answer is kind of yes and no. The no bit

419
01:12:10,666 --> 01:12:13,250
is, even after that meeting in

420
01:12:13,250 --> 01:12:16,958
Townsville, we knew that there was we

421
01:12:16,958 --> 01:12:18,375
almost sort of turned into a brief, you

422
01:12:18,375 --> 01:12:19,625
know, how would you get broad scale of

423
01:12:19,625 --> 01:12:21,250
constants from across such a large area

424
01:12:21,250 --> 01:12:21,666
when you haven't got enough money?

425
01:12:21,666 --> 01:12:25,500
Yeah, and, and why were you doing that?

426
01:12:25,500 --> 01:12:26,916
So really big part of this is actually

427
01:12:26,916 --> 01:12:28,333
what you're really trying to do is trying

428
01:12:28,333 --> 01:12:30,375
to build a targeting system. So with

429
01:12:30,375 --> 01:12:32,041
minimal resources, where do you put them?

430
01:12:32,791 --> 01:12:33,875
And that's a question on the Great

431
01:12:33,875 --> 01:12:35,083
Barrier, but it's also a question for

432
01:12:35,083 --> 01:12:36,541
tropical reefs everywhere. In fact, it's

433
01:12:36,541 --> 01:12:38,166
kind of a question for conservation,

434
01:12:38,958 --> 01:12:41,333
terrestrial or in the marine environment.

435
01:12:41,958 --> 01:12:44,333
And, and I guess the other part of it was

436
01:12:44,333 --> 01:12:47,333
you never have enough assets, you never

437
01:12:47,333 --> 01:12:50,500
have enough money, etc, etc. So what

438
01:12:50,500 --> 01:12:50,666
resources do you have?

439
01:12:51,666 --> 01:12:54,666
And, you know, on the Great Barrier Reef,

440
01:12:54,666 --> 01:12:56,166
what when we first arrived here, what it

441
01:12:56,166 --> 01:12:58,041
felt like was you'd have skippers on

442
01:12:58,041 --> 01:12:59,708
boats or dive instructors who knew that

443
01:12:59,708 --> 01:13:01,666
race really well. Yeah, but we're not

444
01:13:01,666 --> 01:13:02,958
really involved in any

445
01:13:02,958 --> 01:13:04,208
meaningful way in conservation.

446
01:13:05,250 --> 01:13:06,583
And yet they have all these years, you

447
01:13:06,583 --> 01:13:07,708
know, ever skipper has been working the

448
01:13:07,708 --> 01:13:09,041
reef for 30 years, they'll know more

449
01:13:09,041 --> 01:13:10,208
about the risk than any researcher.

450
01:13:10,625 --> 01:13:13,375
Right? So, and how do we tourism and

451
01:13:13,375 --> 01:13:15,166
fishing? Correct. Yeah,

452
01:13:15,166 --> 01:13:15,666
it's their livelihoods.

453
01:13:15,666 --> 01:13:18,416
And they generally passionately love the

454
01:13:18,416 --> 01:13:20,041
place that they work, right? Otherwise,

455
01:13:20,041 --> 01:13:21,958
they wouldn't stay there for so long. So

456
01:13:21,958 --> 01:13:23,583
so that sort of start to get those

457
01:13:23,583 --> 01:13:25,791
ingredients how to do it. But to be

458
01:13:25,791 --> 01:13:27,625
really honest with with you with

459
01:13:27,625 --> 01:13:29,416
citizens, the first three years, it was

460
01:13:29,416 --> 01:13:31,416
like a startup, it was we didn't have

461
01:13:31,416 --> 01:13:33,083
enough focus, we were struggling with,

462
01:13:33,083 --> 01:13:35,125
you know, how to do stuff, the technology

463
01:13:35,125 --> 01:13:36,500
wasn't good enough, you start from

464
01:13:36,500 --> 01:13:38,166
scratch, trying to think through a new

465
01:13:38,166 --> 01:13:40,041
problem, because essentially, it was, it

466
01:13:40,041 --> 01:13:40,666
felt like a new problem.

467
01:13:41,666 --> 01:13:47,666
And we took two years at least try and

468
01:13:47,666 --> 01:13:49,875
work out how to do to come up with like

469
01:13:49,875 --> 01:13:52,083
the basic idea. And then we started to

470
01:13:52,083 --> 01:13:55,666
pilot then COVID hit. And COVID was

471
01:13:55,666 --> 01:13:57,125
weird. If you're in Melbourne or Sydney,

472
01:13:57,416 --> 01:13:58,833
it was pretty terrible time in Australia.

473
01:13:58,833 --> 01:13:59,666
I think Melbourne was the

474
01:13:59,666 --> 01:14:00,666
city with the longest lockdown.

475
01:14:01,666 --> 01:14:04,083
But I'm hearing cans, what happened to

476
01:14:04,083 --> 01:14:05,750
Kansas a tourist town. But what happened

477
01:14:05,750 --> 01:14:08,291
in Kansas, no one came to visit. But you

478
01:14:08,291 --> 01:14:09,708
still had all you still had all the

479
01:14:09,708 --> 01:14:11,375
tourist boats, you still had all the

480
01:14:11,375 --> 01:14:12,916
people, we had a thing in Australia

481
01:14:12,916 --> 01:14:14,666
called JobKeeper, which is where people

482
01:14:14,666 --> 01:14:17,000
got paid, even though, you know, it was

483
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:18,458
just trying to keep essentially keep

484
01:14:18,458 --> 01:14:20,666
everyone eating and paying their rent.

485
01:14:20,666 --> 01:14:22,666
And so you had all these people who work

486
01:14:22,666 --> 01:14:24,375
in the industry, the marine industry up

487
01:14:24,375 --> 01:14:25,625
here, you had all these boats, they still

488
01:14:25,625 --> 01:14:27,666
have to run their engines. And so that

489
01:14:27,666 --> 01:14:30,125
was the first 2020 was COVID year. And we

490
01:14:30,125 --> 01:14:32,375
just managed to get the first of our

491
01:14:32,375 --> 01:14:36,000
motley flotilla out there and and started

492
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:36,666
to capture photographs.

493
01:14:36,666 --> 01:14:39,666
It's sort of weirdly, a bit like kind of

494
01:14:39,666 --> 01:14:41,375
a Dunkirk moment, all the small boats

495
01:14:41,375 --> 01:14:44,125
going out to help. It was kind of, yeah,

496
01:14:44,125 --> 01:14:45,458
it's an interesting interesting thing to

497
01:14:45,458 --> 01:14:47,750
see. And what you realize more and more

498
01:14:47,750 --> 01:14:49,625
the more and more I work in this is that

499
01:14:49,625 --> 01:14:50,708
people who live on those

500
01:14:50,708 --> 01:14:51,875
routes love them passionately.

501
01:14:52,875 --> 01:14:54,833
And, you know, a lot of them have got

502
01:14:54,833 --> 01:14:56,291
skin in the game, in terms of their jobs

503
01:14:56,291 --> 01:14:59,166
and their livelihood, but there is a deep

504
01:14:59,166 --> 01:14:59,666
love for this place.

505
01:14:59,666 --> 01:15:02,333
Well, and think about the challenges to

506
01:15:02,333 --> 01:15:05,416
right you you have this tragedy of

507
01:15:05,416 --> 01:15:08,125
bleaching and the largest coral reef

508
01:15:08,125 --> 01:15:10,208
barrier reef in the world. Yeah, you're

509
01:15:10,208 --> 01:15:11,666
trying to, you know, you get inspired

510
01:15:11,666 --> 01:15:13,083
you're like, okay, you know, you move

511
01:15:13,083 --> 01:15:15,083
from from the Netherlands to back to

512
01:15:15,083 --> 01:15:16,083
Australia with the family

513
01:15:16,083 --> 01:15:16,666
and everything and saying,

514
01:15:16,666 --> 01:15:19,458
all right, like, we're here to solve help

515
01:15:19,458 --> 01:15:21,125
solve this problem, do what we can

516
01:15:21,125 --> 01:15:22,791
monitoring, that's the thing. And then

517
01:15:22,791 --> 01:15:24,916
you go out, you try and get a bunch of

518
01:15:24,916 --> 01:15:26,208
people to go out, you have some

519
01:15:26,208 --> 01:15:28,750
passionate people who want to help out.

520
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:31,625
And then a global pandemic hits, like,

521
01:15:31,833 --> 01:15:34,041
where everybody's got to stay inside,

522
01:15:34,041 --> 01:15:35,458
especially Australia, you guys struggle,

523
01:15:35,666 --> 01:15:37,583
like just like we did, where, you know,

524
01:15:37,583 --> 01:15:40,458
mandating continuing going back into into

525
01:15:40,458 --> 01:15:43,833
isolation, right, because of, you know,

526
01:15:43,833 --> 01:15:45,375
government protocols and so forth.

527
01:15:45,958 --> 01:15:47,541
The challenges just keep building and

528
01:15:47,541 --> 01:15:48,500
building and building.

529
01:15:50,666 --> 01:15:52,625
How do you like, how do you fight that

530
01:15:52,625 --> 01:15:55,250
when you want to do something so good yet

531
01:15:55,250 --> 01:15:58,416
outside factors that you cannot control

532
01:15:58,416 --> 01:16:01,416
cause you to have like, was that a big

533
01:16:01,416 --> 01:16:02,541
setback for you in

534
01:16:02,541 --> 01:16:03,541
terms of getting people out?

535
01:16:03,666 --> 01:16:07,500
Well, it was weird because it's obviously

536
01:16:07,500 --> 01:16:09,125
circumstance that none of us had ever

537
01:16:09,125 --> 01:16:11,583
like, no one had seen this before. Right.

538
01:16:12,166 --> 01:16:15,500
And, and so I at one point, I was being

539
01:16:15,500 --> 01:16:18,958
you know, I have a board and I was under

540
01:16:18,958 --> 01:16:20,625
orders by the board to work out how to

541
01:16:20,625 --> 01:16:22,750
shut down the organization because there

542
01:16:22,750 --> 01:16:24,125
was a kind of view at one point, we're

543
01:16:24,125 --> 01:16:25,916
like, you're gonna run out of money,

544
01:16:25,916 --> 01:16:27,208
there's no tourists here,

545
01:16:27,208 --> 01:16:27,666
how are you gonna make it work.

546
01:16:27,666 --> 01:16:31,041
But actually, I think I saw I did put

547
01:16:31,041 --> 01:16:32,625
probably a week's worth of work into

548
01:16:32,625 --> 01:16:34,625
trying to work out how to do that. And

549
01:16:34,625 --> 01:16:35,916
you know, you start to work out you're

550
01:16:35,916 --> 01:16:38,958
paying people too often, or service, it's

551
01:16:38,958 --> 01:16:40,250
really crappy kind of experience.

552
01:16:41,583 --> 01:16:43,541
And I think about a week into this, it's

553
01:16:43,541 --> 01:16:45,291
like, why are we doing this? Like, what,

554
01:16:45,666 --> 01:16:49,083
what, what, we just given up, right? And,

555
01:16:49,125 --> 01:16:52,125
and then you start to know, not really,

556
01:16:52,125 --> 01:16:53,708
but also, I think, I think is

557
01:16:53,708 --> 01:16:54,666
a state of mind as well. Yeah.

558
01:16:54,666 --> 01:16:58,250
Sometimes these things like with for us,

559
01:16:58,250 --> 01:17:00,958
for as terrible as it was, if you're in

560
01:17:00,958 --> 01:17:02,708
Melbourne, in, in cans, we didn't really,

561
01:17:02,708 --> 01:17:04,958
we had like six weeks of lockdown, right?

562
01:17:05,166 --> 01:17:06,458
Like hardly anything. Gotcha.

563
01:17:06,958 --> 01:17:08,708
And even then you still got a dog, you

564
01:17:08,708 --> 01:17:11,750
know, yeah. And other big cities, but

565
01:17:11,750 --> 01:17:14,750
we're what we because we can essentially

566
01:17:14,750 --> 01:17:17,166
a really remote city, right? You know,

567
01:17:17,166 --> 01:17:19,000
the nearest next out like Papua New, Port

568
01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:20,333
Moresby and Papua New Guinea is the

569
01:17:20,333 --> 01:17:21,375
nearest capital city to

570
01:17:21,375 --> 01:17:22,666
us, not Canberra or yet.

571
01:17:22,666 --> 01:17:26,916
Right. So, so in a way, we just kind of

572
01:17:26,916 --> 01:17:29,166
lent into it and went, right, well, all

573
01:17:29,166 --> 01:17:30,375
these boats are here, all these people

574
01:17:30,375 --> 01:17:31,708
are here, people want something to do.

575
01:17:32,166 --> 01:17:33,958
And so we, we ran the first

576
01:17:33,958 --> 01:17:35,125
year and it kind of worked.

577
01:17:35,458 --> 01:17:39,833
And it set a tone of, of everyone working

578
01:17:39,833 --> 01:17:41,583
together and collaboration and trying to

579
01:17:41,583 --> 01:17:44,416
help each other out. And I get no one was

580
01:17:44,416 --> 01:17:45,958
competing with each other at the time,

581
01:17:45,958 --> 01:17:47,416
because there's no kind of operators

582
01:17:47,416 --> 01:17:48,208
competing with each other

583
01:17:48,208 --> 01:17:49,666
because there was no tourists.

584
01:17:49,666 --> 01:17:53,166
Right. So hard in a weird sort of way,

585
01:17:53,833 --> 01:17:55,375
very opportunistic, maybe it really

586
01:17:55,375 --> 01:17:58,416
helped. And it proved you can do it. And

587
01:17:58,416 --> 01:18:00,625
often I think with anything that you do

588
01:18:00,625 --> 01:18:04,708
in life, if it's news, half the issues is

589
01:18:04,708 --> 01:18:05,166
dealing with the

590
01:18:05,166 --> 01:18:06,500
skepticism of it won't work.

591
01:18:08,125 --> 01:18:10,416
Right. So, so, you know, it actually gave

592
01:18:10,416 --> 01:18:13,041
us a bit of a bit of an opportunity. And,

593
01:18:13,041 --> 01:18:16,458
and, yeah, it was quite, I think it came

594
01:18:16,458 --> 01:18:17,416
almost as relief because

595
01:18:17,416 --> 01:18:18,458
everyone had a bit of a mission.

596
01:18:19,666 --> 01:18:20,708
Yeah, and they had time.

597
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:24,583
They can spend a lot of time. Yeah. Yeah.

598
01:18:24,666 --> 01:18:26,416
So you'd have people working in the dive

599
01:18:26,416 --> 01:18:27,875
industry who normally if they're going to

600
01:18:27,875 --> 01:18:29,833
dive boat, they're like chock is all day.

601
01:18:30,291 --> 01:18:31,291
I mean, you've been on dive boats, for

602
01:18:31,291 --> 01:18:33,875
sure. Right. So, you know, it's a 12 hour

603
01:18:33,875 --> 01:18:35,541
day, they're exhausted, they don't really

604
01:18:35,541 --> 01:18:38,375
have that much. It's like, you know, so

605
01:18:38,375 --> 01:18:39,541
you suddenly had all these people with

606
01:18:39,541 --> 01:18:40,916
all this experience, being able to spend

607
01:18:40,916 --> 01:18:43,416
hours in the water doing stuff and like,

608
01:18:43,708 --> 01:18:44,666
and essentially get paid for it.

609
01:18:44,666 --> 01:18:47,541
You know, in a weird, in a weird way,

610
01:18:47,541 --> 01:18:49,333
Andrew, it's like what the world should

611
01:18:49,333 --> 01:18:51,833
be like, like people being able to have

612
01:18:51,833 --> 01:18:55,208
people spending time, really couldn't do,

613
01:18:55,208 --> 01:18:57,750
you know, putting doing doing kind of

614
01:18:57,750 --> 01:18:59,666
cool stuff. That's what in a perfect

615
01:18:59,666 --> 01:19:00,666
world. That's what we'd be doing. Right.

616
01:19:00,666 --> 01:19:02,625
Yeah, it's almost like taking and giving

617
01:19:02,625 --> 01:19:04,333
back, right? Like you're taking, you

618
01:19:04,333 --> 01:19:05,708
know, you're making money off the ocean,

619
01:19:05,708 --> 01:19:06,875
but you got to give back in the ocean.

620
01:19:06,875 --> 01:19:08,166
And obviously, this is nothing this is

621
01:19:08,166 --> 01:19:09,958
nothing against like eco tourism and

622
01:19:09,958 --> 01:19:12,041
tourism that the people the outfits that

623
01:19:12,041 --> 01:19:13,416
do it properly and take care of the reef

624
01:19:13,416 --> 01:19:15,083
while they're out there. But, you know,

625
01:19:15,083 --> 01:19:16,666
it's almost like they would if they had

626
01:19:16,666 --> 01:19:19,125
the time to do that, it'd be ideal.

627
01:19:19,791 --> 01:19:21,208
Right? Because they can spend a lot of

628
01:19:21,208 --> 01:19:23,041
their time to take care of the reef just

629
01:19:23,041 --> 01:19:25,666
as much as they as they use it. You know,

630
01:19:25,666 --> 01:19:27,166
I guess we were talking a bit about,

631
01:19:27,500 --> 01:19:28,666
we're talking about this before we kind of press the record. But I think it's a good idea.

632
01:19:30,666 --> 01:19:34,208
But it's this thing of kind of our world

633
01:19:34,208 --> 01:19:35,916
is pretty mixed up at the moment where

634
01:19:35,916 --> 01:19:37,666
the first thing, whereas we go through

635
01:19:37,666 --> 01:19:38,958
into these crazy times that we're in at

636
01:19:38,958 --> 01:19:40,791
the moment, the first thing to drop off

637
01:19:40,791 --> 01:19:43,083
is basically environment conservation,

638
01:19:43,583 --> 01:19:44,333
like the money just drops

639
01:19:44,333 --> 01:19:45,208
away almost immediately.

640
01:19:45,875 --> 01:19:47,833
And, and yet, it's the place that we live

641
01:19:47,833 --> 01:19:51,208
and it's, there's a level of insanity to

642
01:19:51,208 --> 01:19:53,666
the fact that we're not investing the

643
01:19:53,666 --> 01:19:56,416
time and effort. And, you know, even the

644
01:19:56,416 --> 01:19:58,750
social capital into into looking after

645
01:19:58,750 --> 01:20:00,958
the place that we live, but it is, yeah,

646
01:20:00,958 --> 01:20:01,625
we live at the moment,

647
01:20:01,625 --> 01:20:02,416
it's pretty weird, but

648
01:20:03,375 --> 01:20:05,833
we're so disconnected, right? We're so

649
01:20:05,833 --> 01:20:07,291
disconnected from like a lot of us are

650
01:20:07,291 --> 01:20:09,666
disconnected from from the ocean, just by

651
01:20:09,666 --> 01:20:11,875
geography. But it's also, you know, in

652
01:20:11,875 --> 01:20:14,750
terms of thought process, I, I, I

653
01:20:14,750 --> 01:20:16,916
recorded and published an episode about a

654
01:20:16,916 --> 01:20:18,416
month ago about how we need to talk about

655
01:20:18,416 --> 01:20:19,250
the ocean more just in

656
01:20:19,250 --> 01:20:19,666
our regular conversations.

657
01:20:19,666 --> 01:20:21,833
So that we're not necessarily just a kind

658
01:20:21,833 --> 01:20:23,250
of way, but in a way that, Hey, you know

659
01:20:23,250 --> 01:20:24,583
what, I'd like to use the ocean or I like

660
01:20:24,583 --> 01:20:26,000
to be out on the ocean. The last time I

661
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:27,541
was there, or, you know, I'm there, if

662
01:20:27,541 --> 01:20:28,666
you're there every day, like you said,

663
01:20:28,666 --> 01:20:29,708
you're a few kilometers away.

664
01:20:29,708 --> 01:20:30,791
And I'm sure you're in the ocean quite a

665
01:20:30,791 --> 01:20:32,708
bit. You know, you just have to talk

666
01:20:32,708 --> 01:20:34,416
about that, that fun time. People on the

667
01:20:34,416 --> 01:20:36,666
coast, maybe, maybe take it for granted.

668
01:20:36,666 --> 01:20:38,125
They get to talk about it all the time.

669
01:20:38,125 --> 01:20:39,958
But, you know, people like myself who

670
01:20:39,958 --> 01:20:42,166
live in central Canada and you don't get,

671
01:20:42,166 --> 01:20:43,166
you get to see the Great Lakes, but you

672
01:20:43,166 --> 01:20:43,666
don't get to see the ocean.

673
01:20:44,666 --> 01:20:46,208
We need to talk about more, even if it's

674
01:20:46,208 --> 01:20:47,875
a river or a lake or something, you know,

675
01:20:47,875 --> 01:20:49,333
talk about the health talk, you know, in

676
01:20:49,333 --> 01:20:51,166
an optimistic kind of way. And then I

677
01:20:51,166 --> 01:20:53,458
feel like we get more connected, more top

678
01:20:53,458 --> 01:20:56,208
of mind in terms of regular decisions

679
01:20:56,208 --> 01:20:58,125
that we use in terms of like, you know,

680
01:20:58,125 --> 01:20:59,541
we always go over convenience over

681
01:20:59,541 --> 01:21:01,916
environment, I feel like, and we need to

682
01:21:01,916 --> 01:21:03,666
sort of get away from that.

683
01:21:04,666 --> 01:21:07,041
When we started to when we started this

684
01:21:07,041 --> 01:21:08,750
project, Great Recenter Project, one of

685
01:21:08,750 --> 01:21:12,541
the things around it was, again, you

686
01:21:12,541 --> 01:21:14,500
often come back to this thing of how much

687
01:21:14,500 --> 01:21:15,833
funding is that and it's never enough,

688
01:21:15,833 --> 01:21:19,083
right? And so you started to go, okay,

689
01:21:19,083 --> 01:21:20,583
well, what assets do we have that we

690
01:21:20,583 --> 01:21:21,666
don't have to pay for?

691
01:21:21,833 --> 01:21:23,750
So I've been talking about this kind of

692
01:21:23,750 --> 01:21:24,958
motley flotilla, which was all the

693
01:21:24,958 --> 01:21:26,666
tourism boats and all this, you know, the

694
01:21:26,666 --> 01:21:28,125
tugs going out to service more in lines

695
01:21:28,125 --> 01:21:30,416
and stuff like that. But there's also

696
01:21:30,416 --> 01:21:32,375
this asset of people, just

697
01:21:32,375 --> 01:21:34,250
general virtual volunteers.

698
01:21:35,166 --> 01:21:36,625
And one of the things that covered really

699
01:21:36,625 --> 01:21:40,166
kind of accelerated was virtual voluntary

700
01:21:40,166 --> 01:21:41,833
because everyone was stuck at home and

701
01:21:41,833 --> 01:21:42,958
they're still trying to get some sort of

702
01:21:42,958 --> 01:21:43,458
sense of connection.

703
01:21:43,666 --> 01:21:44,083
And so, you know, we were trying to get a

704
01:21:44,083 --> 01:21:45,083
sense of connection with them. Yeah, but

705
01:21:45,083 --> 01:21:48,083
which was, again, fortuitous for what

706
01:21:48,083 --> 01:21:49,666
we're trying to do, because suddenly we

707
01:21:49,666 --> 01:21:51,041
had a kind of workforce available.

708
01:21:52,750 --> 01:21:56,708
But it is also slightly like it's

709
01:21:56,708 --> 01:21:58,375
something that's slightly not sort of

710
01:21:58,375 --> 01:22:00,666
irritates me a bit, but is that there is

711
01:22:00,666 --> 01:22:02,708
a default often I think in conservation

712
01:22:02,708 --> 01:22:05,833
and research to remove people and lean on

713
01:22:05,833 --> 01:22:09,625
technology or lead and and it whether

714
01:22:09,625 --> 01:22:10,750
you're talking about going out on the

715
01:22:10,750 --> 01:22:12,333
reef, there's a bit of a rice a passage

716
01:22:12,333 --> 01:22:12,666
to for a lot of people who are

717
01:22:13,666 --> 01:22:14,833
living in the communities here,

718
01:22:14,833 --> 01:22:15,958
particularly traditional owners actually,

719
01:22:16,541 --> 01:22:19,500
of spending time on sea country being in

720
01:22:19,500 --> 01:22:21,125
the water and like living and breathing

721
01:22:21,125 --> 01:22:23,625
it. It's an amazing thing to

722
01:22:23,625 --> 01:22:25,875
have in your life to your point.

723
01:22:26,541 --> 01:22:27,750
For sure. But even with the virtual

724
01:22:27,750 --> 01:22:29,333
volunteering, it's like I think one of

725
01:22:29,333 --> 01:22:30,708
the rules that we had at the beginning

726
01:22:30,708 --> 01:22:32,125
when we're trying to set this thing up

727
01:22:32,125 --> 01:22:36,708
was, okay, how do you not engineer people

728
01:22:36,708 --> 01:22:38,333
out of this? How do you actually engineer

729
01:22:38,333 --> 01:22:39,666
them in and do that?

730
01:22:39,666 --> 01:22:41,666
And if can you do that in a meaningful

731
01:22:41,666 --> 01:22:43,458
way, can you do that in a way that isn't

732
01:22:43,458 --> 01:22:48,416
just kind of tokenistic or marking and

733
01:22:48,416 --> 01:22:50,833
I'm not I don't mean

734
01:22:50,833 --> 01:22:51,625
that in a critical way.

735
01:22:51,625 --> 01:22:52,791
I just mean, can you go to the next

736
01:22:52,791 --> 01:22:54,750
level, really? And so that's one of the

737
01:22:54,750 --> 01:22:55,625
things with the project

738
01:22:55,625 --> 01:22:56,416
with the census project.

739
01:22:56,416 --> 01:22:58,250
We're going, okay, if we were able to

740
01:22:58,250 --> 01:23:00,625
capture images from hundreds or even

741
01:23:00,625 --> 01:23:02,000
thousands of reefs across the Great

742
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:04,333
Barrier Reef or across the world, what is

743
01:23:04,333 --> 01:23:04,666
the role of people in this?

744
01:23:04,666 --> 01:23:08,000
And that actually came to us as a kind of

745
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:10,708
bit of a we had a bit of a crisis because

746
01:23:10,708 --> 01:23:11,458
the census project

747
01:23:11,458 --> 01:23:12,625
started to work really well.

748
01:23:13,166 --> 01:23:14,416
And instead of but the first year we got

749
01:23:14,416 --> 01:23:17,500
like 14,000 images from about 140 reefs

750
01:23:17,500 --> 01:23:19,500
or something. The second year we got to

751
01:23:19,500 --> 01:23:23,041
300 reefs and we had tens of thousands of

752
01:23:23,041 --> 01:23:25,541
images and we were leading we know

753
01:23:25,541 --> 01:23:26,333
experts were doing the

754
01:23:26,333 --> 01:23:26,666
analysis, but they were.

755
01:23:27,666 --> 01:23:31,958
It was super boring job. So they got kind

756
01:23:31,958 --> 01:23:34,708
of a board and didn't want to do it. And

757
01:23:34,708 --> 01:23:36,833
then you have to pay and we didn't have

758
01:23:36,833 --> 01:23:38,291
enough money. So there's a bit of a theme

759
01:23:38,291 --> 01:23:39,750
there. You notice Andrew. Yeah.

760
01:23:40,125 --> 01:23:44,750
So so we started we work with Dell, you

761
01:23:44,750 --> 01:23:46,208
know, the tech company and we were sort

762
01:23:46,208 --> 01:23:47,458
of looking at how do we can we

763
01:23:47,458 --> 01:23:48,666
build? Can we do this with AI?

764
01:23:49,666 --> 01:23:52,208
And on one hand, you need to go, maybe I

765
01:23:52,208 --> 01:23:54,166
can do all the analysis of these images

766
01:23:54,166 --> 01:23:55,416
in the image. You're basically looking

767
01:23:55,416 --> 01:23:57,625
for how much plate coral, boulder coral

768
01:23:57,625 --> 01:23:59,916
and branching cola is. And if it's got a

769
01:23:59,916 --> 01:24:01,666
lot, then you might have a key source

770
01:24:01,666 --> 01:24:03,416
free for a mother reef as the T.O.

771
01:24:03,416 --> 01:24:05,250
Traditional owners call it. And so I was

772
01:24:05,250 --> 01:24:06,916
kind of looking for these these most

773
01:24:06,916 --> 01:24:08,208
important of all the reefs within the

774
01:24:08,208 --> 01:24:12,458
system. But we we tried a I we got it to

775
01:24:12,458 --> 01:24:14,208
around 70 percent as accurate as an

776
01:24:14,208 --> 01:24:15,291
expert, which is

777
01:24:15,291 --> 01:24:15,666
good, but not good enough.

778
01:24:15,666 --> 01:24:19,500
Yeah. So then we sort of went for our can

779
01:24:19,500 --> 01:24:22,041
we add the AI with the human eye and we

780
01:24:22,041 --> 01:24:24,500
built this hybrid system of both. And

781
01:24:24,500 --> 01:24:26,875
that's now like it takes about just under

782
01:24:26,875 --> 01:24:29,958
a minute to analyze an image. And it's as

783
01:24:29,958 --> 01:24:31,666
accurate as an expert within percent, like one or two percentage points.

784
01:24:31,666 --> 01:24:35,041
So how does it work now? So now you have

785
01:24:35,041 --> 01:24:36,375
like you have a system that's 70%

786
01:24:36,666 --> 01:24:38,500
accurate just on its own. And then you

787
01:24:38,500 --> 01:24:41,625
have a person, you know, that has a bit

788
01:24:41,625 --> 01:24:43,875
of an expertise or, you know, knowledge

789
01:24:43,875 --> 01:24:45,666
of corals. How does it work

790
01:24:45,666 --> 01:24:47,125
to make it even more accurate?

791
01:24:48,375 --> 01:24:50,791
Yeah, so so we had this imaginary person

792
01:24:50,791 --> 01:24:53,625
in our heads who was commuting to work in

793
01:24:53,625 --> 01:24:56,791
Jakarta, totally person. Yeah. And

794
01:24:56,791 --> 01:24:58,875
therefore had a lot of commute time like

795
01:24:58,875 --> 01:25:00,666
four hours a day. And had a mobile phone. And then we had a mobile phone. And then we had a mobile phone.

796
01:25:02,416 --> 01:25:05,166
And smartphone. And therefore we want we

797
01:25:05,166 --> 01:25:06,750
wanted to be able to go could this person

798
01:25:06,750 --> 01:25:09,500
community in Jakarta every day, analyze

799
01:25:09,500 --> 01:25:11,833
an image in two minutes on their phone

800
01:25:11,833 --> 01:25:14,166
and do that once a day for five minutes.

801
01:25:14,916 --> 01:25:17,250
Almost like stop the doom scrolling, do

802
01:25:17,250 --> 01:25:18,708
that for five hours. Right. So sounds

803
01:25:18,708 --> 01:25:20,750
kind of our imaginary imaginary person.

804
01:25:21,333 --> 01:25:22,916
And so pretty much is kind of what we

805
01:25:22,916 --> 01:25:24,625
built, we built, we wanted it to be able

806
01:25:24,625 --> 01:25:26,208
to be used by somebody who's never been

807
01:25:26,208 --> 01:25:27,708
to the Great Barrier Reef or a reef.

808
01:25:28,500 --> 01:25:30,708
That needs to be really simple. And we

809
01:25:30,708 --> 01:25:31,958
were looking for really simple stuff.

810
01:25:31,958 --> 01:25:33,250
When we first started the platform, we

811
01:25:33,250 --> 01:25:37,125
had like 164 options. And it was kind of

812
01:25:37,125 --> 01:25:38,500
ridiculous. That was our scientists

813
01:25:38,500 --> 01:25:40,708
wanted, oh, we need 164 categories. And

814
01:25:40,708 --> 01:25:41,666
of course, of course, it

815
01:25:41,666 --> 01:25:42,666
didn't really work. Right.

816
01:25:43,125 --> 01:25:45,166
So so now we were okay, actually, what we

817
01:25:45,166 --> 01:25:47,375
really want to know was how much plate

818
01:25:47,375 --> 01:25:49,166
coral, boulder coral and branching color

819
01:25:49,166 --> 01:25:52,041
is there? And what else is in there?

820
01:25:52,416 --> 01:25:55,000
Yeah, exactly. So so that's what we

821
01:25:55,000 --> 01:25:57,291
built. And, and we sort of think about,

822
01:25:57,291 --> 01:25:59,625
well, so the AI will draw a shape.

823
01:26:00,416 --> 01:26:02,041
You can look at this on gravy senses that

824
01:26:02,041 --> 01:26:03,958
all but the AI will draw a shape around

825
01:26:03,958 --> 01:26:05,833
and we'll draw a line around a shape.

826
01:26:05,833 --> 01:26:08,875
That's pretty good at picking out, like,

827
01:26:09,375 --> 01:26:11,916
boulder coral or branching or and then

828
01:26:11,916 --> 01:26:13,708
that image you'll get asked if you go

829
01:26:13,708 --> 01:26:14,500
onto the site, you'll get

830
01:26:14,500 --> 01:26:15,666
asked, okay, what do you see?

831
01:26:15,666 --> 01:26:18,208
What's that boundary drawn around? What

832
01:26:18,208 --> 01:26:20,083
is it? Is it play call, Boulder coral or

833
01:26:20,083 --> 01:26:22,083
branching? You got a little tutorial

834
01:26:22,083 --> 01:26:24,291
first, but it's like super easy. But we

835
01:26:24,291 --> 01:26:26,000
want to design the whole system so that

836
01:26:26,000 --> 01:26:27,666
you need to you basically had

837
01:26:27,666 --> 01:26:29,666
to have no knowledge at all.

838
01:26:29,666 --> 01:26:32,708
Never been to the Great Barrier Reef, you

839
01:26:32,708 --> 01:26:34,125
don't need to know about coral, it's

840
01:26:34,125 --> 01:26:37,541
really, really simple. And so then every

841
01:26:37,541 --> 01:26:39,083
image gets analyzed by five different

842
01:26:39,083 --> 01:26:40,666
people. And it's the power of the crowd.

843
01:26:40,958 --> 01:26:42,708
So if five people are basically saying

844
01:26:42,708 --> 01:26:44,250
the same thing, you know that

845
01:26:44,250 --> 01:26:45,666
it's good chances play call.

846
01:26:45,666 --> 01:26:48,041
So there's a whole paper on this, which

847
01:26:48,041 --> 01:26:51,208
came out of University of Queensland,

848
01:26:51,208 --> 01:26:53,000
just looking at how accurate the data is

849
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:54,750
because people are incredibly skeptical

850
01:26:54,750 --> 01:26:57,375
about science in the beginning. But

851
01:26:57,375 --> 01:26:59,208
actually, I think we're, I think it's

852
01:26:59,208 --> 01:27:00,083
actually the mass

853
01:27:00,083 --> 01:27:01,708
disruption to conservation.

854
01:27:02,666 --> 01:27:04,208
And I think that's, I think both

855
01:27:04,208 --> 01:27:07,625
required, but also is going to be is

856
01:27:07,625 --> 01:27:09,833
probably going to be facilitated by AI,

857
01:27:10,166 --> 01:27:12,666
the reality that you can make a citizen

858
01:27:12,666 --> 01:27:15,250
anywhere valuable in a conservation role

859
01:27:15,250 --> 01:27:16,625
is quite a big

860
01:27:16,625 --> 01:27:18,208
breakthrough if we embrace it.

861
01:27:20,666 --> 01:27:21,458
So I'm looking at the website now, so I

862
01:27:21,458 --> 01:27:22,666
keep looking over to the right, by the

863
01:27:22,666 --> 01:27:25,083
way, and I'm looking at the video that

864
01:27:25,083 --> 01:27:26,291
you have, it's almost like a how to

865
01:27:26,291 --> 01:27:29,125
guide, or just initial guide in terms of

866
01:27:29,125 --> 01:27:31,375
like explaining how it's working. I don't

867
01:27:31,375 --> 01:27:32,541
have the sound on, of course, but I'm

868
01:27:32,541 --> 01:27:34,916
looking at you see that boulder branches,

869
01:27:34,916 --> 01:27:35,833
you know, kind of plate,

870
01:27:37,666 --> 01:27:39,875
and you just have to all you have to do,

871
01:27:39,875 --> 01:27:41,916
I guess, is just click and agree. And

872
01:27:41,916 --> 01:27:43,833
like, this is this is how you do it.

873
01:27:43,833 --> 01:27:45,291
Yeah, it basically you'll have a few

874
01:27:45,291 --> 01:27:46,708
options down the left hand side and just

875
01:27:46,708 --> 01:27:48,666
go, so yeah, let's play. And even if you

876
01:27:48,666 --> 01:27:50,666
get it wrong, somebody else will get it

877
01:27:50,666 --> 01:27:52,583
right. Yeah, you have five basically the

878
01:27:52,583 --> 01:27:53,666
power of numbers, right?

879
01:27:53,916 --> 01:27:55,166
Just be like, No, no, actually, that's I

880
01:27:55,166 --> 01:27:57,708
would consider that this Yeah, I love

881
01:27:57,708 --> 01:28:01,375
this aspect. Have you gamified this a

882
01:28:01,375 --> 01:28:02,333
little bit to make it

883
01:28:02,333 --> 01:28:03,666
more enticing for people?

884
01:28:03,916 --> 01:28:06,875
Yeah, no, but so what we found was that.

885
01:28:08,125 --> 01:28:10,000
But firstly, I say this that school kids,

886
01:28:10,000 --> 01:28:14,583
sort of nine to 16 are incredibly good at

887
01:28:14,583 --> 01:28:17,916
this, but they're like, I'm like an old,

888
01:28:18,333 --> 01:28:21,583
annoying, you know, slow.

889
01:28:24,083 --> 01:28:27,166
Yeah, compared to like an 11 year old who

890
01:28:27,166 --> 01:28:29,416
just be like, you know, just firing

891
01:28:29,416 --> 01:28:31,625
through the stuff is so quick. It's

892
01:28:31,625 --> 01:28:34,833
amazing. So, and but I reckon we look at

893
01:28:34,833 --> 01:28:36,333
who's doing this is basically about 30

894
01:28:36,333 --> 01:28:38,250
school kids currently, a third is

895
01:28:38,250 --> 01:28:40,041
corporate volunteers that are companies

896
01:28:40,041 --> 01:28:41,375
and a third is just general public.

897
01:28:42,416 --> 01:28:45,125
So you've got it basically works with a

898
01:28:45,125 --> 01:28:47,000
lot of different people with gamified as

899
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:48,458
extent of life, for example, at the

900
01:28:48,458 --> 01:28:50,041
moment, if you go on there, I think it's

901
01:28:50,041 --> 01:28:51,625
only in Australia, but I think we have an

902
01:28:51,625 --> 01:28:52,958
international one coming out.

903
01:28:52,958 --> 01:28:54,875
You know, if you every time you do five

904
01:28:54,875 --> 01:28:59,833
images, you win a ticket to basically a

905
01:28:59,833 --> 01:29:01,208
draw to come to the Great Barrier Reef

906
01:29:01,208 --> 01:29:02,083
and come out and look at some of the

907
01:29:02,083 --> 01:29:03,583
restoration sites we have out of the reef

908
01:29:03,583 --> 01:29:04,208
and stuff like that.

909
01:29:05,041 --> 01:29:06,791
But what you could I mean, there is so

910
01:29:06,791 --> 01:29:08,500
much you could do to this in terms of

911
01:29:08,500 --> 01:29:10,958
gamification. I think it's still it's

912
01:29:10,958 --> 01:29:12,333
pretty cool platform, but it's still

913
01:29:12,333 --> 01:29:13,166
pretty rudimentary in

914
01:29:13,166 --> 01:29:14,666
comparison to what you could do to it.

915
01:29:14,833 --> 01:29:17,625
Yeah, oh, 100%. Like, this is yeah,

916
01:29:17,625 --> 01:29:20,291
right. So it's like Mark one, right? So

917
01:29:20,291 --> 01:29:22,666
yeah, so and I think the other part to

918
01:29:22,666 --> 01:29:23,750
that is at the moment, we're just looking

919
01:29:23,750 --> 01:29:24,833
for those three types of coral, but

920
01:29:24,833 --> 01:29:28,583
actually, we need to work with with Mars

921
01:29:28,583 --> 01:29:29,666
have a big restoration program,

922
01:29:29,666 --> 01:29:33,166
we'll read stars and we've been what they

923
01:29:33,166 --> 01:29:35,041
look for is fields of rubble next to

924
01:29:35,041 --> 01:29:37,208
healthy coral and you can put these kind

925
01:29:37,208 --> 01:29:39,166
of they're called Mars, very stars that

926
01:29:39,166 --> 01:29:41,166
basically stabilize the reef and you can

927
01:29:41,166 --> 01:29:42,541
put coral fragments on them and you can

928
01:29:42,541 --> 01:29:43,916
actually rebuild small

929
01:29:43,916 --> 01:29:45,083
areas of reef doing that.

930
01:29:45,083 --> 01:29:46,500
It's very effective kind of restoration

931
01:29:46,500 --> 01:29:49,708
on small scale. But we are now using the

932
01:29:49,708 --> 01:29:51,375
data that we're capturing from all these

933
01:29:51,375 --> 01:29:52,583
photographs that coming in from across

934
01:29:52,583 --> 01:29:53,666
the Great Barrier Reef and other places

935
01:29:53,666 --> 01:29:55,666
to have to find those areas.

936
01:29:55,666 --> 01:29:58,250
So you can start to see, okay, well, step

937
01:29:58,250 --> 01:29:59,833
one was find these three types of

938
01:29:59,833 --> 01:30:02,208
hardcore step two could be, you know,

939
01:30:02,208 --> 01:30:04,000
fields of rubble and hardcore and you

940
01:30:04,000 --> 01:30:06,166
know, you can just keep doing more and

941
01:30:06,166 --> 01:30:07,000
more and more with this.

942
01:30:07,291 --> 01:30:08,875
I think the big challenge for us is not

943
01:30:08,875 --> 01:30:11,166
to design people out of it. I think it's

944
01:30:11,166 --> 01:30:12,500
a really critical. Yeah, you got to keep

945
01:30:12,500 --> 01:30:14,541
involved of conservation. Yeah.

946
01:30:15,166 --> 01:30:16,583
Well, it's a great way to connect them to

947
01:30:16,583 --> 01:30:18,125
to the Great Barrier Reef like people all

948
01:30:18,125 --> 01:30:19,458
over the world. Like you said in Jakarta

949
01:30:19,458 --> 01:30:22,000
and here in Burlington, Ontario, where I

950
01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:24,500
live or in the Arctic, even if they just

951
01:30:24,500 --> 01:30:26,333
have an app or they go on the website and

952
01:30:26,333 --> 01:30:28,583
they just like boom, boom, boom, boom,

953
01:30:28,583 --> 01:30:29,375
you do it and you're like,

954
01:30:29,375 --> 01:30:30,791
this is what corals look like.

955
01:30:30,791 --> 01:30:32,083
This is what branching corals like we

956
01:30:32,083 --> 01:30:34,208
hear it all the time. You know, it used

957
01:30:34,208 --> 01:30:35,750
to be a marine aquarium hobbyist and I

958
01:30:35,750 --> 01:30:37,166
was like, this is really cool. I want to

959
01:30:37,166 --> 01:30:38,416
see these branching corals. I want to see

960
01:30:38,416 --> 01:30:40,250
what they look like in the wild. Yeah, I

961
01:30:40,250 --> 01:30:41,625
want to see what it's what a reef is

962
01:30:41,625 --> 01:30:42,500
supposed to look like.

963
01:30:42,666 --> 01:30:43,708
I mean, you don't always see that you may

964
01:30:43,708 --> 01:30:45,833
see it in documentaries and so but you're

965
01:30:45,833 --> 01:30:47,250
not really focused on that here. It's

966
01:30:47,250 --> 01:30:48,625
like something that's specifically

967
01:30:48,625 --> 01:30:51,083
focused on there and also like it's a

968
01:30:51,083 --> 01:30:52,875
great opportunity for an education tool.

969
01:30:53,250 --> 01:30:54,958
You know what I mean to like not only get

970
01:30:54,958 --> 01:30:56,666
through this stuff, but maybe like after

971
01:30:56,666 --> 01:30:58,583
like, you know, you do five or six, you

972
01:30:58,583 --> 01:31:00,500
get like a tidbit of information of like

973
01:31:00,500 --> 01:31:01,708
this is what branching corals are

974
01:31:01,708 --> 01:31:02,416
important for like

975
01:31:02,416 --> 01:31:03,208
there's such an opportunity.

976
01:31:03,666 --> 01:31:05,500
So many hours you mentioned this is the

977
01:31:05,500 --> 01:31:07,125
first this is the first iteration and

978
01:31:07,125 --> 01:31:09,000
you're just like, okay, like there's a

979
01:31:09,000 --> 01:31:11,458
there's a lot of opportunity here with

980
01:31:11,458 --> 01:31:13,375
how you can build this out and but the

981
01:31:13,375 --> 01:31:15,083
fact that you're getting people engaged

982
01:31:15,083 --> 01:31:17,583
like how many people have been a part of

983
01:31:17,583 --> 01:31:18,958
this so far have you have you been able

984
01:31:18,958 --> 01:31:20,458
to figure out the count of like how many

985
01:31:20,458 --> 01:31:21,666
people have actually started?

986
01:31:21,666 --> 01:31:24,333
Yes, it's still it's still relatively

987
01:31:24,333 --> 01:31:28,916
new. I think we have about 12,000. So

988
01:31:28,916 --> 01:31:30,500
what we call super users that's people

989
01:31:30,500 --> 01:31:35,583
have done like a lot. Yeah, yeah. And so

990
01:31:35,583 --> 01:31:37,666
it's still relatively, actually

991
01:31:37,666 --> 01:31:40,458
relatively small. But what we at the

992
01:31:40,458 --> 01:31:41,833
moment, we're trying to build our

993
01:31:41,833 --> 01:31:43,708
workforce up to our virtual volunteering

994
01:31:43,708 --> 01:31:45,666
workforce up to about 60,000.

995
01:31:46,041 --> 01:31:48,291
If we had 60,000 people spending kind of

996
01:31:48,291 --> 01:31:51,166
five minutes of their time doing this, we

997
01:31:51,166 --> 01:31:54,083
could basically do all the analysis, the

998
01:31:54,083 --> 01:31:56,208
Great Barrier Reef in just a few hours.

999
01:31:56,958 --> 01:32:00,458
Yeah. So I think think about that. That's

1000
01:32:00,458 --> 01:32:02,416
crazy. Right? We've got 12, I think we've

1001
01:32:02,416 --> 01:32:03,833
got 12,000 something at the moment,

1002
01:32:03,833 --> 01:32:06,416
right? Yeah, but it's 60,000. If everyone

1003
01:32:06,416 --> 01:32:08,416
just gave five minutes. So at the moment,

1004
01:32:08,708 --> 01:32:10,166
we're concentrating on Great Barrier

1005
01:32:10,166 --> 01:32:12,708
Reef. But in in they've started to

1006
01:32:12,708 --> 01:32:13,833
collect data in Hawaiian

1007
01:32:13,833 --> 01:32:14,666
Islands. So there'll be a.

1008
01:32:14,666 --> 01:32:16,958
A version of this will be launched around

1009
01:32:16,958 --> 01:32:19,208
World Ocean's Day in in Hawaii, and we're

1010
01:32:19,208 --> 01:32:20,541
doing the same in the Red Sea, we're

1011
01:32:20,541 --> 01:32:22,666
doing same in the Coral Triangle. So you

1012
01:32:22,666 --> 01:32:24,666
start to look at this. Where this gets

1013
01:32:24,666 --> 01:32:26,458
really interesting, and I think quite

1014
01:32:26,458 --> 01:32:30,708
exciting is this idea of going, okay, we

1015
01:32:30,708 --> 01:32:31,833
are the Great Barrier Reef, we've got

1016
01:32:31,833 --> 01:32:32,500
lots of experience

1017
01:32:32,500 --> 01:32:32,666
that we've learned here.

1018
01:32:32,666 --> 01:32:35,791
But there is experience all over the

1019
01:32:35,791 --> 01:32:38,875
world, often disconnected. There's basic

1020
01:32:38,875 --> 01:32:40,666
stuff that we all need to understand and

1021
01:32:40,666 --> 01:32:42,750
know whether that be, you know, what's

1022
01:32:42,750 --> 01:32:44,583
going on between the different reef,

1023
01:32:44,583 --> 01:32:46,666
essentially, reef connectivity, where if

1024
01:32:46,666 --> 01:32:47,916
you've got limited resources, you're

1025
01:32:47,916 --> 01:32:49,916
going to spend that resource, whether it

1026
01:32:49,916 --> 01:32:50,833
be money or whether it be

1027
01:32:50,833 --> 01:32:51,666
time or boat time or whatever.

1028
01:32:52,666 --> 01:32:55,708
And what would you do on those reefs? And

1029
01:32:55,708 --> 01:32:57,208
then what's working and what's not?

1030
01:32:57,500 --> 01:32:58,333
Because that's one of the other big

1031
01:32:58,333 --> 01:33:00,041
things in conservation is you'll find

1032
01:33:00,041 --> 01:33:01,583
there are mimicking projects everywhere

1033
01:33:01,583 --> 01:33:02,625
in your find the be

1034
01:33:02,625 --> 01:33:04,041
mimicking projects of ours, right?

1035
01:33:04,500 --> 01:33:06,166
How do you get to a situation where you

1036
01:33:06,166 --> 01:33:08,166
got, okay, let's try to pull this. How do

1037
01:33:08,166 --> 01:33:09,250
we open source all of

1038
01:33:09,250 --> 01:33:10,666
this? Yeah, and go right.

1039
01:33:11,666 --> 01:33:13,708
Everyone's got it. You know, there is a

1040
01:33:13,708 --> 01:33:15,375
there's essentially citizens, you got

1041
01:33:15,375 --> 01:33:18,041
rights and responsibilities. So you can

1042
01:33:18,041 --> 01:33:20,083
use all of this stuff, but your

1043
01:33:20,083 --> 01:33:21,000
responsibilities then to

1044
01:33:21,000 --> 01:33:23,166
feedback what you learn. Yeah.

1045
01:33:24,500 --> 01:33:25,875
And where you get a restoration

1046
01:33:25,875 --> 01:33:27,750
technique, for example, or stewardship

1047
01:33:27,750 --> 01:33:29,708
sort of technique that's working really

1048
01:33:29,708 --> 01:33:30,875
well, we want to know where it's not

1049
01:33:30,875 --> 01:33:32,416
working really well, we also want to know

1050
01:33:32,416 --> 01:33:33,666
so we don't so we don't do it.

1051
01:33:34,666 --> 01:33:36,333
Well, it's a constant, it's a constant

1052
01:33:36,333 --> 01:33:37,666
improvement, right? You're trying to

1053
01:33:37,666 --> 01:33:39,291
improve the algorithms, you're trying to

1054
01:33:39,291 --> 01:33:40,916
improve the AI, you're trying to improve

1055
01:33:40,916 --> 01:33:42,583
people's interpretation of what they're

1056
01:33:42,583 --> 01:33:44,500
seeing and then and then maybe even build

1057
01:33:44,500 --> 01:33:45,416
on that if you can,

1058
01:33:45,666 --> 01:33:46,541
you know, down the road.

1059
01:33:47,416 --> 01:33:48,750
Yeah, so you're the science is always

1060
01:33:48,750 --> 01:33:50,250
going to be there. It's going to have to

1061
01:33:50,250 --> 01:33:52,166
be there, right to make sure that that

1062
01:33:52,166 --> 01:33:52,833
everything is

1063
01:33:52,833 --> 01:33:53,666
accurate and whatnot. Right?

1064
01:33:53,666 --> 01:33:56,416
And I think I think as I said before, you

1065
01:33:56,416 --> 01:33:57,666
know, one of the great challenges in

1066
01:33:57,666 --> 01:33:59,083
citizen science is because of where it's

1067
01:33:59,083 --> 01:34:00,416
come from. It's still like a really

1068
01:34:00,416 --> 01:34:03,541
early, you know, sort of a quite new

1069
01:34:03,541 --> 01:34:05,250
topic almost for sure.

1070
01:34:05,250 --> 01:34:06,416
In a way, it is, although you could sort

1071
01:34:06,416 --> 01:34:07,583
of go back in history and go, well,

1072
01:34:07,583 --> 01:34:09,125
actually, farmers have been scientists or

1073
01:34:09,125 --> 01:34:09,916
their own land for

1074
01:34:09,916 --> 01:34:10,666
years, years or, you know, so.

1075
01:34:10,666 --> 01:34:13,791
Yeah, but but but it's definitely looked

1076
01:34:13,791 --> 01:34:17,666
down on by the research community and for

1077
01:34:17,666 --> 01:34:19,041
some in some cases for

1078
01:34:19,041 --> 01:34:19,791
good reason, I think.

1079
01:34:20,333 --> 01:34:21,666
But I think we're going into a very

1080
01:34:21,666 --> 01:34:23,833
different age where it's it can become an

1081
01:34:23,833 --> 01:34:26,791
incredibly useful tool to get massive

1082
01:34:26,791 --> 01:34:28,625
scale up into places. So we don't have to

1083
01:34:28,625 --> 01:34:30,166
fly people all over the world to do stuff

1084
01:34:30,166 --> 01:34:31,875
you can actually do, you know, real

1085
01:34:31,875 --> 01:34:33,666
locally based conservation.

1086
01:34:33,666 --> 01:34:37,166
You start to see those people as, you

1087
01:34:37,166 --> 01:34:40,416
know, much more around the expertise can

1088
01:34:40,416 --> 01:34:43,791
be transferred in a different way. Yeah.

1089
01:34:44,291 --> 01:34:45,666
But so can the expertise on the recent

1090
01:34:45,666 --> 01:34:46,708
cells come back and help

1091
01:34:46,708 --> 01:34:47,666
other people all over the world.

1092
01:34:47,666 --> 01:34:50,875
So I, you know, in a perfect world, I,

1093
01:34:50,875 --> 01:34:52,833
you know, I sort of feel like there are

1094
01:34:52,833 --> 01:34:56,125
massive opportunities here to really

1095
01:34:56,125 --> 01:34:58,375
rethink in the same way that maybe

1096
01:34:58,375 --> 01:35:00,166
Spotify changed the record industry, how

1097
01:35:00,166 --> 01:35:03,750
you think about changing the conservation

1098
01:35:03,750 --> 01:35:05,250
world and just bringing

1099
01:35:05,250 --> 01:35:06,708
far more resource to it.

1100
01:35:06,708 --> 01:35:08,125
That resource is not being used at the

1101
01:35:08,125 --> 01:35:11,000
moment. Agree. We sort of look at screen

1102
01:35:11,000 --> 01:35:12,833
time as a resource, right? So attention

1103
01:35:12,833 --> 01:35:15,666
is almost like a currency. Yes, it is.

1104
01:35:15,666 --> 01:35:17,833
And one of the great things about

1105
01:35:17,833 --> 01:35:19,625
podcasts is one of those rare times where

1106
01:35:19,625 --> 01:35:20,833
people actually will sit down. They

1107
01:35:20,833 --> 01:35:21,750
probably would have done with me

1108
01:35:21,750 --> 01:35:27,041
nattering on but they listen to to to a

1109
01:35:27,041 --> 01:35:29,333
long form kind of type conversation. But

1110
01:35:29,333 --> 01:35:30,666
we have this thing in Australia, I think

1111
01:35:30,666 --> 01:35:34,916
average Australia spends three hours and

1112
01:35:34,916 --> 01:35:37,458
15 minutes scrolling on their phone every

1113
01:35:37,458 --> 01:35:39,583
day, like, you know, and I'm guilty that

1114
01:35:39,583 --> 01:35:41,333
my kids are definitely guilty that even

1115
01:35:41,333 --> 01:35:44,125
more than me. Yeah. But, you know, that's

1116
01:35:44,125 --> 01:35:45,958
time that could be utilized. So we've got

1117
01:35:45,958 --> 01:35:47,166
this kind of idea at the moment, which

1118
01:35:47,166 --> 01:35:48,416
we're working on. And let's just like,

1119
01:35:48,416 --> 01:35:50,416
you know, cap me, cap me, save the reef

1120
01:35:50,416 --> 01:35:52,916
for five minutes and cap me. Does that

1121
01:35:52,916 --> 01:35:54,916
kind of whole idea of like, how do you

1122
01:35:54,916 --> 01:35:57,458
like take a break from doing it? Yeah,

1123
01:35:57,458 --> 01:35:57,750
yeah, yeah. Do

1124
01:35:57,750 --> 01:35:58,666
something good. You know, yeah.

1125
01:35:58,666 --> 01:36:00,458
Yeah, stop do scrolling. There's plenty

1126
01:36:00,458 --> 01:36:02,375
of political reasons to stop do scrolling

1127
01:36:02,375 --> 01:36:04,000
at the moment. So, you know, yeah, for

1128
01:36:04,000 --> 01:36:05,416
sure. Well, your mental everybody's

1129
01:36:05,416 --> 01:36:06,750
mental health needs a little break, I

1130
01:36:06,750 --> 01:36:09,458
think, you know, to be able to stare at

1131
01:36:09,458 --> 01:36:12,166
at reef, you know, like, like a beautiful

1132
01:36:12,166 --> 01:36:13,708
reef, you know, and maybe sometimes it's

1133
01:36:13,708 --> 01:36:15,375
good. Sometimes it's bad. Sometimes it's

1134
01:36:15,375 --> 01:36:17,666
not. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you revisit it

1135
01:36:17,666 --> 01:36:19,375
and see how it's doing. And has it

1136
01:36:19,375 --> 01:36:21,041
recovered from a bleaching event? Or is

1137
01:36:21,041 --> 01:36:22,541
it going through a bleaching event? Or

1138
01:36:22,541 --> 01:36:25,083
sometimes you never know how are the how

1139
01:36:25,083 --> 01:36:25,666
the photographs taken?

1140
01:36:25,666 --> 01:36:31,166
It's really simple. So you if you take an

1141
01:36:31,166 --> 01:36:32,750
average reef, you're trying to get all

1142
01:36:32,750 --> 01:36:36,208
four sides of a reef. So the wild side,

1143
01:36:36,208 --> 01:36:38,875
which normally in this case, places to

1144
01:36:38,875 --> 01:36:43,250
the east, the, the lagoon side, which is

1145
01:36:43,250 --> 01:36:44,541
the west side, and then the pressure

1146
01:36:44,541 --> 01:36:46,125
points on either end, because it's a

1147
01:36:46,125 --> 01:36:47,833
barrier reef. So that's kind of they're

1148
01:36:47,833 --> 01:36:50,416
not so many fringing reefs here. Gotcha.

1149
01:36:51,250 --> 01:36:52,916
And then, and the pressure points, you

1150
01:36:52,916 --> 01:36:54,000
know, where you get the big animals on

1151
01:36:54,000 --> 01:36:54,666
either end normally. Yeah.

1152
01:36:55,666 --> 01:36:57,791
So you have a lot of fish up here. And

1153
01:36:57,791 --> 01:37:00,291
you take a you have two people in the

1154
01:37:00,291 --> 01:37:02,541
water minimum two people in the water, 40

1155
01:37:02,541 --> 01:37:05,250
photographs in a GoPro about two to three

1156
01:37:05,250 --> 01:37:08,250
meters away from the side of the reef.

1157
01:37:08,916 --> 01:37:11,041
And you take a photograph every five

1158
01:37:11,041 --> 01:37:13,958
kicks of your fins, you take 40

1159
01:37:13,958 --> 01:37:15,166
photographs, so you get 80

1160
01:37:15,166 --> 01:37:17,000
photographs across a survey.

1161
01:37:19,666 --> 01:37:20,166
And you take a picture of the system. And

1162
01:37:20,166 --> 01:37:21,875
this is like a very easy, easy system

1163
01:37:21,875 --> 01:37:23,583
where one of the first challenges we had

1164
01:37:23,583 --> 01:37:26,041
when we started this was actually wasn't

1165
01:37:26,041 --> 01:37:27,166
that hard getting people to go out and

1166
01:37:27,166 --> 01:37:29,000
take photographs. What was hard was

1167
01:37:29,000 --> 01:37:30,458
getting the photographs off the GoPros.

1168
01:37:31,791 --> 01:37:33,291
We built this whole system that made

1169
01:37:33,291 --> 01:37:34,625
right basically in Australia, what

1170
01:37:34,625 --> 01:37:36,041
happens is you go out on the reef and

1171
01:37:36,041 --> 01:37:37,583
then you come back and go to the pub and

1172
01:37:37,583 --> 01:37:39,166
or maybe you go back to your family or

1173
01:37:39,166 --> 01:37:40,875
something but often pub in this case.

1174
01:37:42,666 --> 01:37:43,666
And then you start thinking, well, how do

1175
01:37:43,666 --> 01:37:45,125
you get that? So we built the system and

1176
01:37:45,125 --> 01:37:46,166
you basically come out of the water, you

1177
01:37:46,166 --> 01:37:49,791
go prone immediately uploads. But like

1178
01:37:49,791 --> 01:37:51,625
you put in a car somewhere and it uploads

1179
01:37:51,625 --> 01:37:53,125
like from a computer basically Bluetooth

1180
01:37:53,125 --> 01:37:56,291
it. It's really easy. Yes, super easy.

1181
01:37:56,833 --> 01:37:59,541
Yeah. So essentially, the way the system

1182
01:37:59,541 --> 01:38:00,625
works, I interrupt, but the way the

1183
01:38:00,625 --> 01:38:02,041
system works is you have all these boats

1184
01:38:02,041 --> 01:38:04,125
in the water from tourists, like tourist

1185
01:38:04,125 --> 01:38:06,250
operations and so forth. They go in the

1186
01:38:06,250 --> 01:38:07,750
water. They're in the water anyway, they

1187
01:38:07,750 --> 01:38:09,708
have the GoPro. They're just there not

1188
01:38:09,708 --> 01:38:10,916
only to make sure the tourists are having

1189
01:38:10,916 --> 01:38:11,666
a good time, but also to make sure like to take a picture of the water.

1190
01:38:11,666 --> 01:38:13,000
And also to make sure like to take these

1191
01:38:13,000 --> 01:38:15,458
pictures every five kicks, you could even

1192
01:38:15,458 --> 01:38:18,375
also include like the odd tourists to be

1193
01:38:18,375 --> 01:38:19,375
able to do it too, because they might

1194
01:38:19,375 --> 01:38:20,750
feel like this is a great way to look at

1195
01:38:20,750 --> 01:38:22,833
the reef and wait to help if you need to.

1196
01:38:22,833 --> 01:38:24,250
But you have people in the water doing it

1197
01:38:24,250 --> 01:38:26,208
with all these boats on the water and

1198
01:38:26,208 --> 01:38:27,708
then they come once they're done their

1199
01:38:27,708 --> 01:38:29,875
trip or their day, they come in that a

1200
01:38:29,875 --> 01:38:32,166
series of photos, probably hundreds at

1201
01:38:32,166 --> 01:38:34,166
that point, you know, for an entire day

1202
01:38:34,166 --> 01:38:36,250
out on the water gets uploaded to the

1203
01:38:36,250 --> 01:38:38,458
system and the system, you know, to

1204
01:38:38,458 --> 01:38:39,666
basically distribute it out

1205
01:38:39,666 --> 01:38:40,666
to the users to be able to.

1206
01:38:41,666 --> 01:38:43,166
Make those go through the analysis,

1207
01:38:43,416 --> 01:38:44,791
right? That's pretty much exactly that.

1208
01:38:45,791 --> 01:38:47,166
Yeah. How long did it take you to get to

1209
01:38:47,166 --> 01:38:48,250
that point, like where

1210
01:38:48,250 --> 01:38:49,375
it's almost streamlined?

1211
01:38:50,666 --> 01:38:52,875
I mean, I think we can we still

1212
01:38:52,875 --> 01:38:54,291
streamlining. I think we're constantly

1213
01:38:54,291 --> 01:38:58,875
streamlining actually. But it's been

1214
01:38:58,875 --> 01:39:00,833
iterative. Yeah, it's been four or five

1215
01:39:00,833 --> 01:39:02,583
years working on this. The first version

1216
01:39:02,583 --> 01:39:05,333
was actually the first version.

1217
01:39:06,666 --> 01:39:08,375
Again, we were doing a lot of skepticism

1218
01:39:08,375 --> 01:39:11,250
around just even the approach. Yeah, it

1219
01:39:11,250 --> 01:39:12,500
was kind of interesting to deal with you

1220
01:39:12,500 --> 01:39:13,791
because you have to deal with a lot of

1221
01:39:13,791 --> 01:39:16,750
negativity, of course, but but now I feel

1222
01:39:16,750 --> 01:39:17,833
like we've gone quite

1223
01:39:17,833 --> 01:39:18,916
a long way past that.

1224
01:39:18,916 --> 01:39:20,166
And I think the results in the scientific

1225
01:39:20,166 --> 01:39:21,458
papers are out from University of

1226
01:39:21,458 --> 01:39:22,541
Queensland, all this kind of stuff. So it

1227
01:39:22,541 --> 01:39:25,125
makes a big difference. But it is a very

1228
01:39:25,125 --> 01:39:26,166
different way of thinking

1229
01:39:26,166 --> 01:39:27,375
about how you get scale.

1230
01:39:28,666 --> 01:39:32,375
And and the idea that you can get scale,

1231
01:39:32,375 --> 01:39:34,000
which is challenging, you know, without

1232
01:39:34,000 --> 01:39:35,875
having, you know, a billion dollars.

1233
01:39:36,708 --> 01:39:40,166
Yeah. And so so it has been iterative,

1234
01:39:40,166 --> 01:39:42,625
but it accelerates every time you bring

1235
01:39:42,625 --> 01:39:43,708
more talent into it,

1236
01:39:43,708 --> 01:39:44,666
it basically helps it.

1237
01:39:44,666 --> 01:39:47,000
And one of the interesting things, even

1238
01:39:47,000 --> 01:39:48,666
the person who did the AI, the original

1239
01:39:48,666 --> 01:39:51,666
set of AI, and I'm sorry, she currently

1240
01:39:51,666 --> 01:39:54,083
works in Texas, but she was working in

1241
01:39:54,083 --> 01:39:56,208
Sydney, and she'd never she was

1242
01:39:56,208 --> 01:39:58,250
originally from India, and moved to

1243
01:39:58,250 --> 01:39:59,500
Castle Hill in Sydney had

1244
01:39:59,500 --> 01:40:00,666
never been in the ocean.

1245
01:40:00,666 --> 01:40:03,083
And yet she led the team that did the AI,

1246
01:40:03,375 --> 01:40:04,875
which was, I think, pretty

1247
01:40:04,875 --> 01:40:06,208
groundbreaking. I think no one had done

1248
01:40:06,208 --> 01:40:09,916
it before. And, yeah, so we actually took

1249
01:40:09,916 --> 01:40:11,458
her and there was a kind of cool though,

1250
01:40:11,458 --> 01:40:12,708
we took her in the water for the fish had

1251
01:40:12,708 --> 01:40:13,666
never been in the ocean.

1252
01:40:13,666 --> 01:40:16,458
And one of my team, Yaz took her into

1253
01:40:16,458 --> 01:40:19,000
into the ocean for the first time. And we

1254
01:40:19,000 --> 01:40:20,958
were doing a doco for a streaming

1255
01:40:20,958 --> 01:40:23,916
platform here in Australia. And they

1256
01:40:23,916 --> 01:40:25,375
filmed it. It's just like one of the

1257
01:40:25,375 --> 01:40:27,166
coolest bits that has been in the film.

1258
01:40:27,916 --> 01:40:29,583
Yeah, her face just lights up because

1259
01:40:29,583 --> 01:40:31,541
she's got a really, really amazing reef

1260
01:40:31,541 --> 01:40:33,375
called Flynn reef, which is off cans and

1261
01:40:33,375 --> 01:40:36,958
okay with them. Yeah, and it was, yeah,

1262
01:40:36,958 --> 01:40:38,291
it's kind of all those life changing.

1263
01:40:38,833 --> 01:40:41,541
Yeah, I mean, honestly, you see someone's

1264
01:40:41,541 --> 01:40:43,416
eye like, you know, it's a bit of a, it's

1265
01:40:43,416 --> 01:40:45,166
an amazing thing to go on the roof. You

1266
01:40:45,166 --> 01:40:47,291
know, you see people's eyes like light up

1267
01:40:47,291 --> 01:40:49,625
in a way that, you know, you'd only see

1268
01:40:49,625 --> 01:40:50,958
in the Serengeti or someone

1269
01:40:50,958 --> 01:40:51,666
like that, you know, for sure.

1270
01:40:51,666 --> 01:40:55,500
Very simple. I love it. I this is such a

1271
01:40:55,500 --> 01:40:58,041
cool thing to do. And then now when you

1272
01:40:58,041 --> 01:40:59,500
get all that data, I mean, obviously,

1273
01:40:59,500 --> 01:41:01,500
that's been your focus is like, okay,

1274
01:41:01,500 --> 01:41:03,291
let's get the data. Let's let's try and

1275
01:41:03,291 --> 01:41:04,875
figure out let's get this analysis done.

1276
01:41:05,541 --> 01:41:07,500
What's what do you do with the data after

1277
01:41:07,500 --> 01:41:09,458
that? Like, do you have some house that

1278
01:41:09,458 --> 01:41:11,125
that analyze it and look at coverage

1279
01:41:11,125 --> 01:41:13,000
makeup maps like in a GIS or something?

1280
01:41:13,000 --> 01:41:16,166
Or do you hand it over to the Great

1281
01:41:16,166 --> 01:41:16,666
Barrier Reef Marine Park?

1282
01:41:16,666 --> 01:41:20,500
Yeah, great. It's a lot of data. It's a

1283
01:41:20,500 --> 01:41:22,208
lot of data. It's a lot of data. And it's

1284
01:41:22,208 --> 01:41:23,708
a new it's a new type of data because

1285
01:41:23,708 --> 01:41:25,500
it's broad scale reconnaissance. It's not

1286
01:41:25,500 --> 01:41:28,083
sort of hyper like accurate quadrant kind

1287
01:41:28,083 --> 01:41:29,625
of, you know, what's happening in the

1288
01:41:29,625 --> 01:41:31,875
square meter. It's more like seascape.

1289
01:41:32,750 --> 01:41:35,000
But but that was kind of what was asked

1290
01:41:35,000 --> 01:41:37,041
for in the beginning. So the data goes

1291
01:41:37,041 --> 01:41:39,166
into this project, a partnership with

1292
01:41:39,166 --> 01:41:41,750
University of Queensland, the Marine

1293
01:41:41,750 --> 01:41:44,125
Spatial Ecology Lab, a guy, a guy they

1294
01:41:44,125 --> 01:41:45,666
call Pete, Pete Mumbi, Professor Pete Mumbi.

1295
01:41:46,666 --> 01:41:50,208
Not well known, I guess. I'm sorry. Guys

1296
01:41:50,208 --> 01:41:53,541
like we're renowned. Yeah, yeah, he is a

1297
01:41:53,541 --> 01:41:57,958
he unusually he was a bit at bigger

1298
01:41:57,958 --> 01:41:59,583
advocate for this from the beginning has

1299
01:41:59,583 --> 01:42:01,083
been kind of what I helped started

1300
01:42:01,083 --> 01:42:03,958
basically. So it goes into his lab. And

1301
01:42:03,958 --> 01:42:05,541
we have. And then that

1302
01:42:05,541 --> 01:42:06,666
data is used for the modeling.

1303
01:42:06,666 --> 01:42:09,916
I think it's providing about 50% of the

1304
01:42:09,916 --> 01:42:12,000
modeling data that then goes back to the

1305
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:14,000
Marine Park Authority, particularly to

1306
01:42:14,000 --> 01:42:16,083
guide their crown of thorns starfish

1307
01:42:16,083 --> 01:42:19,750
culling boats. Yeah, we have a an animal

1308
01:42:19,750 --> 01:42:20,875
that's on the Great Barrier Reef. I'm

1309
01:42:20,875 --> 01:42:22,041
sure you know, it's hundred by which for

1310
01:42:22,041 --> 01:42:24,166
crown of thorns starfish. Yeah, it's an

1311
01:42:24,166 --> 01:42:27,666
incredibly efficient eater of coral. Yes.

1312
01:42:28,375 --> 01:42:30,458
And and I think is responsible currently

1313
01:42:30,458 --> 01:42:32,041
for about 50% of the coral

1314
01:42:32,041 --> 01:42:32,666
loss on the Great Barrier Reef.

1315
01:42:32,666 --> 01:42:36,541
Yeah, soon to be and already probably

1316
01:42:36,541 --> 01:42:40,750
superseded by climate change, but so they

1317
01:42:40,750 --> 01:42:42,666
have a I think six boats to go up and

1318
01:42:42,666 --> 01:42:44,708
down the Great Barrier Reef culling

1319
01:42:44,708 --> 01:42:47,541
swarms of crown of thorns starfish. The

1320
01:42:47,541 --> 01:42:49,875
pro how do you product how do you, you

1321
01:42:49,875 --> 01:42:52,375
know, find which reefs to go to to go

1322
01:42:52,375 --> 01:42:53,750
looking for those crown of thorns

1323
01:42:53,750 --> 01:42:55,875
starfish, particularly looking for where

1324
01:42:55,875 --> 01:42:57,875
is there a high amount of food source for

1325
01:42:57,875 --> 01:42:59,166
crown of thorns starfish rather than

1326
01:42:59,166 --> 01:42:59,666
looking for the crown of thorns itself.

1327
01:42:59,666 --> 01:43:02,583
That data that we're collecting for

1328
01:43:02,583 --> 01:43:04,625
census is going into that program at the

1329
01:43:04,625 --> 01:43:06,791
marine parks. And I think it's getting

1330
01:43:06,791 --> 01:43:08,750
better and better and better and more

1331
01:43:08,750 --> 01:43:11,541
useful. But we're also now using it. So I

1332
01:43:11,541 --> 01:43:13,041
said before, I think it's like we've

1333
01:43:13,041 --> 01:43:14,541
tried to design essentially a targeting

1334
01:43:14,541 --> 01:43:17,583
system to go right if you've if you're

1335
01:43:17,583 --> 01:43:19,958
going to intervene in some way could be

1336
01:43:19,958 --> 01:43:21,458
better stewardship could be restoration

1337
01:43:21,458 --> 01:43:23,791
could be anything in between. How do you

1338
01:43:23,791 --> 01:43:25,916
pick your places? And that's what the

1339
01:43:25,916 --> 01:43:27,916
data? That's what we're really interested

1340
01:43:27,916 --> 01:43:28,666
in is how do you create a future?

1341
01:43:29,666 --> 01:43:30,250
And I think that's a far more efficient

1342
01:43:30,250 --> 01:43:32,958
way of helping a community choose where

1343
01:43:32,958 --> 01:43:34,541
it's going to put its limited resources

1344
01:43:34,541 --> 01:43:39,125
to help conserve and protect reefs in

1345
01:43:39,125 --> 01:43:42,000
their own backyard. And does that mean

1346
01:43:42,000 --> 01:43:43,750
the start in a row? Does that mean the

1347
01:43:43,750 --> 01:43:48,583
data that you're providing has to be more

1348
01:43:48,583 --> 01:43:49,875
accurate? Because right now you're at

1349
01:43:49,875 --> 01:43:51,125
like you said, you're at a broad scale.

1350
01:43:51,125 --> 01:43:53,416
You're looking at boulder, you know,

1351
01:43:53,416 --> 01:43:56,666
rubble, branching corals, plate corals,

1352
01:43:57,041 --> 01:43:58,291
which is good to identify,

1353
01:43:58,291 --> 01:43:58,666
you know, obviously, yeah,

1354
01:43:58,666 --> 01:44:02,875
does that mean like to get those types of

1355
01:44:02,875 --> 01:44:04,916
spaces? Does that mean in certain areas,

1356
01:44:04,916 --> 01:44:07,333
you're going to spend more time and to be

1357
01:44:07,333 --> 01:44:09,166
a little bit more accurate to identify to

1358
01:44:09,166 --> 01:44:10,458
genus or species and some

1359
01:44:10,458 --> 01:44:11,916
if that's even possible?

1360
01:44:13,625 --> 01:44:15,916
Not not at the moment, though. I know

1361
01:44:15,916 --> 01:44:18,041
that we're working on sort of quite hard

1362
01:44:18,041 --> 01:44:20,000
challenge of trying to start to identify

1363
01:44:20,000 --> 01:44:21,875
soft coral as well as much harder.

1364
01:44:22,708 --> 01:44:26,083
Interesting to identify using AI, etc.

1365
01:44:26,083 --> 01:44:26,666
And even human eye, it's much harder. Right.

1366
01:44:26,666 --> 01:44:30,416
We're still working on that moment with

1367
01:44:30,416 --> 01:44:32,000
different color treatments and different

1368
01:44:32,000 --> 01:44:36,833
sort of approaches. But the first

1369
01:44:36,833 --> 01:44:39,041
iteration is was let's find these key

1370
01:44:39,041 --> 01:44:40,791
source reefs and start to use that to

1371
01:44:40,791 --> 01:44:41,666
help with reef connectivity mapping and all this kind of stuff that's Pete's work.

1372
01:44:41,666 --> 01:44:46,541
But I was just talking about this example

1373
01:44:46,541 --> 01:44:49,083
of the Mars reef stars. So this is

1374
01:44:49,083 --> 01:44:50,583
basically rebuilding architecture on

1375
01:44:50,583 --> 01:44:52,875
reefs that have been hammered by cyclones

1376
01:44:52,875 --> 01:44:55,416
or very severe bleaching. And then what

1377
01:44:55,416 --> 01:44:57,166
they're looking for is rubble fields next

1378
01:44:57,166 --> 01:45:00,250
to good coral. Good, you know, right. So

1379
01:45:00,250 --> 01:45:02,375
you need both good rubble field, good

1380
01:45:02,375 --> 01:45:03,625
high corals, because that's where your

1381
01:45:03,625 --> 01:45:05,916
fragments going to come from to help

1382
01:45:05,916 --> 01:45:08,500
rebuild that. So using the data to start

1383
01:45:08,500 --> 01:45:08,666
to be more specific. Okay, well, can we
find rubble fields in this area?

1384
01:45:08,666 --> 01:45:14,833
Information. And then can we map that

1385
01:45:14,833 --> 01:45:16,750
against the good coral so that you start

1386
01:45:16,750 --> 01:45:19,833
to see how we still quite early versions

1387
01:45:19,833 --> 01:45:22,125
of this. But what you start to do is

1388
01:45:22,125 --> 01:45:23,708
build up much better pictures of what's

1389
01:45:23,708 --> 01:45:25,958
going on in a much, much bigger area.

1390
01:45:26,250 --> 01:45:27,208
Yeah. And also, if you think about

1391
01:45:27,208 --> 01:45:29,208
someone like great barrier reef, you

1392
01:45:29,208 --> 01:45:29,666
could have restoration programs, but they normally need a lot of logistics and resources.

1393
01:45:30,666 --> 01:45:36,916
How do you change that and think about

1394
01:45:36,916 --> 01:45:38,833
how can you do that at a much, much lower

1395
01:45:38,833 --> 01:45:41,958
cost? Yeah, and at a very an all being

1396
01:45:41,958 --> 01:45:44,125
done by locals. No one's flying in no

1397
01:45:44,125 --> 01:45:45,666
one, you know, thinking about how you

1398
01:45:45,666 --> 01:45:47,833
build a system that can do that and share

1399
01:45:47,833 --> 01:45:49,208
those insights from like top scientists

1400
01:45:49,208 --> 01:45:52,041
like Pete with a community in the

1401
01:45:52,041 --> 01:45:52,666
Philippines that normally wouldn't get access to those insights, but also vice versa, sharing what they're learning on their recent they fish on and they're like, oh, I'm not going to do that.

1402
01:46:07,916 --> 01:46:12,208
Yeah, it is a, it's, as I said, it's kind

1403
01:46:12,208 --> 01:46:13,666
of thinking about everything almost much more like a shared economy. Yeah, like everyone's in. Everyone has a part to play, whether you're a world's top research on to store, you know, looking for a place to be.

1404
01:46:23,375 --> 01:46:26,166
Fishy village in the Philippines, you're

1405
01:46:26,166 --> 01:46:28,583
all important. Absolutely. And if and

1406
01:46:28,583 --> 01:46:30,541
that's the great part of it, you just get

1407
01:46:30,541 --> 01:46:32,708
you feel so good for, for like maybe five

1408
01:46:32,708 --> 01:46:34,166
minutes of work a day, if you really

1409
01:46:34,166 --> 01:46:36,250
think about it, you know, it's insane to

1410
01:46:36,250 --> 01:46:37,666
know and to understand how impactful it is.

1411
01:46:37,666 --> 01:46:40,708
insane to know and to understand how

1412
01:46:40,708 --> 01:46:46,166
impactful it is from a

1413
01:46:46,166 --> 01:46:47,166
project point of view.

1414
01:46:47,500 --> 01:46:48,833
The amount of data that you're producing

1415
01:46:48,833 --> 01:46:51,041
to go into a lab like

1416
01:46:51,041 --> 01:46:53,000
Peter Mumbi's lab and to

1417
01:46:53,000 --> 01:46:54,875
be able to output the resource that it's

1418
01:46:54,875 --> 01:46:57,625
outputting, this is a huge game changer

1419
01:46:57,625 --> 01:46:58,625
in terms of managing

1420
01:46:58,625 --> 01:46:59,583
the Great Barrier Reef.

1421
01:46:59,583 --> 01:47:01,416
I'm not saying it's going to improve the

1422
01:47:01,416 --> 01:47:02,166
Great Barrier Reef like

1423
01:47:02,166 --> 01:47:03,416
that, but it's going to

1424
01:47:03,416 --> 01:47:05,166
allow, like you said, to identify points

1425
01:47:05,166 --> 01:47:06,041
that may need a little

1426
01:47:06,041 --> 01:47:07,541
bit more help or maybe more

1427
01:47:07,583 --> 01:47:09,291
analysis to say, "How

1428
01:47:09,291 --> 01:47:10,708
can we help these areas?

1429
01:47:10,708 --> 01:47:12,166
Are these the most vulnerable areas?

1430
01:47:12,166 --> 01:47:12,875
Are they not?"

1431
01:47:13,166 --> 01:47:15,458
There's so many applications to this and

1432
01:47:15,458 --> 01:47:16,416
it seems like you're

1433
01:47:16,416 --> 01:47:17,833
just getting started in

1434
01:47:17,833 --> 01:47:19,125
this type of work.

1435
01:47:20,166 --> 01:47:22,958
I think, I mean, really good points.

1436
01:47:22,958 --> 01:47:24,458
I think the thing as well is like we've

1437
01:47:24,458 --> 01:47:25,666
had, it's been a very,

1438
01:47:25,916 --> 01:47:26,750
everyone will know this,

1439
01:47:26,750 --> 01:47:28,000
it's been a really tough start to the

1440
01:47:28,000 --> 01:47:29,250
year with USAID being

1441
01:47:29,250 --> 01:47:30,166
pulled and all this kind

1442
01:47:30,166 --> 01:47:30,583
of stuff.

1443
01:47:31,291 --> 01:47:33,708
And so instead of there being more funds

1444
01:47:33,708 --> 01:47:34,750
and resources for

1445
01:47:34,750 --> 01:47:36,166
conservation, there's definitely

1446
01:47:36,708 --> 01:47:38,708
seeing like billions of dollars less

1447
01:47:38,708 --> 01:47:40,291
basically what feels like 100%.

1448
01:47:41,625 --> 01:47:44,791
And I just sort of, I think we all feel

1449
01:47:44,791 --> 01:47:47,541
like we can't just, you

1450
01:47:47,541 --> 01:47:48,541
know, we've got to come

1451
01:47:48,541 --> 01:47:49,500
up with a way of being

1452
01:47:49,500 --> 01:47:51,916
able to bypass that problem.

1453
01:47:52,625 --> 01:47:52,833
Yeah.

1454
01:47:53,625 --> 01:47:55,166
You know, and not just because we all

1455
01:47:55,166 --> 01:47:56,833
love reefs and we care

1456
01:47:56,833 --> 01:47:57,916
about what happens to them,

1457
01:47:57,916 --> 01:48:00,625
but there are ways of doing it.

1458
01:48:01,666 --> 01:48:05,166
And I think that's kind of weird sort of

1459
01:48:05,166 --> 01:48:06,375
weirdly, we did design

1460
01:48:06,375 --> 01:48:07,125
this knowing obviously

1461
01:48:07,125 --> 01:48:08,833
that this was going to happen, the USAID

1462
01:48:08,833 --> 01:48:10,458
stuff and this massive drop in income.

1463
01:48:11,125 --> 01:48:11,333
Yeah.

1464
01:48:11,583 --> 01:48:15,125
But I think, you know, it's, I had a boss

1465
01:48:15,125 --> 01:48:15,833
once who said that

1466
01:48:15,833 --> 01:48:17,291
luck was opportunity meets

1467
01:48:17,291 --> 01:48:17,916
preparation.

1468
01:48:19,000 --> 01:48:21,000
And in a weird sort of way, I feel like

1469
01:48:21,000 --> 01:48:22,583
we've kind of done that by accident.

1470
01:48:23,416 --> 01:48:23,750
Yeah.

1471
01:48:23,750 --> 01:48:25,583
It is a system that we've tried to build

1472
01:48:25,583 --> 01:48:27,000
that can be scaled to

1473
01:48:27,000 --> 01:48:28,666
anywhere in the world.

1474
01:48:28,708 --> 01:48:33,333
And we know that our tropical reefs, you

1475
01:48:33,333 --> 01:48:34,583
know, as a billion people rely on them

1476
01:48:34,583 --> 01:48:35,791
for their livelihoods, you know,

1477
01:48:36,291 --> 01:48:38,083
25% of the world's species marine species

1478
01:48:38,083 --> 01:48:39,500
will spend some time on tropical reefs.

1479
01:48:39,708 --> 01:48:41,208
There's all these kind of massive stats

1480
01:48:41,208 --> 01:48:43,250
statistics that go, should we really need

1481
01:48:43,250 --> 01:48:44,416
to look after these places?

1482
01:48:45,166 --> 01:48:45,375
Yeah.

1483
01:48:45,375 --> 01:48:46,500
And so how are we going to do that

1484
01:48:46,500 --> 01:48:49,416
without, you know, in this

1485
01:48:49,416 --> 01:48:51,416
new paradigm that we live in?

1486
01:48:52,000 --> 01:48:53,458
We've got to think differently.

1487
01:48:54,208 --> 01:48:55,666
Agreed. I completely agree.

1488
01:48:55,750 --> 01:48:57,541
We were talking a little bit about, you

1489
01:48:57,541 --> 01:48:58,666
know, before we started recording, we

1490
01:48:58,666 --> 01:49:00,250
talked about how basically how to how to

1491
01:49:00,250 --> 01:49:01,375
solve the world for conservation.

1492
01:49:01,666 --> 01:49:01,875
Yeah.

1493
01:49:02,000 --> 01:49:03,541
In terms of conservation funding.

1494
01:49:03,541 --> 01:49:04,291
We did, by the way.

1495
01:49:04,875 --> 01:49:05,375
We fixed it.

1496
01:49:05,375 --> 01:49:06,416
It's all good. We'll do

1497
01:49:06,416 --> 01:49:07,458
that for another episode.

1498
01:49:08,291 --> 01:49:09,375
We'll let you know about it.

1499
01:49:10,041 --> 01:49:10,375
But it's true.

1500
01:49:10,375 --> 01:49:12,125
I mean, like there's definitely, you

1501
01:49:12,125 --> 01:49:14,291
know, we can't rely on necessarily on

1502
01:49:14,291 --> 01:49:15,666
certain on certain governments.

1503
01:49:15,666 --> 01:49:16,916
We've learned that from the share, even

1504
01:49:16,916 --> 01:49:18,166
their own where our own government

1505
01:49:18,166 --> 01:49:19,291
sometimes, you know,

1506
01:49:19,291 --> 01:49:20,500
we'll switch their priorities.

1507
01:49:21,416 --> 01:49:22,666
Conservation has to be

1508
01:49:22,666 --> 01:49:23,708
monetized in a certain way.

1509
01:49:23,791 --> 01:49:25,333
How that's going to happen.

1510
01:49:25,583 --> 01:49:26,666
There's a lot of different models out

1511
01:49:26,666 --> 01:49:28,958
there that may or may not work.

1512
01:49:28,958 --> 01:49:29,791
It's going to be tested.

1513
01:49:29,791 --> 01:49:31,625
But I think, you know, as you mentioned,

1514
01:49:31,625 --> 01:49:33,375
too, before we record, it's very

1515
01:49:33,375 --> 01:49:35,000
difficult because you have to dedicate

1516
01:49:35,000 --> 01:49:37,666
like 60 to 70 percent of your time to

1517
01:49:37,666 --> 01:49:39,333
fundraise, to come up with some sort of

1518
01:49:39,333 --> 01:49:42,458
way to be able to get this going and get

1519
01:49:42,458 --> 01:49:44,375
this moving so that you can do the work

1520
01:49:44,375 --> 01:49:45,250
that you really want to do,

1521
01:49:45,250 --> 01:49:46,750
which could be quite impactful.

1522
01:49:46,791 --> 01:49:48,750
It just, you know, just need a bit of

1523
01:49:48,750 --> 01:49:51,375
funding to go through and and pay the

1524
01:49:51,375 --> 01:49:54,000
people that deserve to be paid and, you

1525
01:49:54,000 --> 01:49:55,333
know, monetize it in certain ways that

1526
01:49:55,333 --> 01:49:56,458
it's just being funded.

1527
01:49:57,250 --> 01:49:59,250
And I think it's so funny because like

1528
01:49:59,250 --> 01:50:00,708
you look at certain people in the world

1529
01:50:00,708 --> 01:50:03,708
who are billionaires and then you have

1530
01:50:03,708 --> 01:50:05,083
others who are and they're and they're

1531
01:50:05,083 --> 01:50:06,041
making money after money

1532
01:50:06,041 --> 01:50:08,000
after money on on fearless things.

1533
01:50:08,000 --> 01:50:09,500
And then you look at what you what we're

1534
01:50:09,500 --> 01:50:11,833
trying to do here in the nonprofit world,

1535
01:50:11,833 --> 01:50:13,583
the conservation world to say, we just

1536
01:50:13,583 --> 01:50:15,125
want to we just want to bring this back

1537
01:50:15,125 --> 01:50:15,833
or we just want to protect what we have.

1538
01:50:17,000 --> 01:50:19,208
And we're not looking to make, you know,

1539
01:50:19,208 --> 01:50:20,541
millions and millions of dollars. We're

1540
01:50:20,541 --> 01:50:21,958
just trying to protect like our mission

1541
01:50:21,958 --> 01:50:24,333
is to protect if we can do that with the

1542
01:50:24,333 --> 01:50:25,083
right amount of money.

1543
01:50:25,333 --> 01:50:27,541
Here's what it requires. You can do a lot

1544
01:50:27,541 --> 01:50:30,375
of great things. And I think I think it's

1545
01:50:30,375 --> 01:50:32,041
really we're going to have to see a

1546
01:50:32,041 --> 01:50:34,291
change in the funding models in the

1547
01:50:34,291 --> 01:50:37,208
monetization models of this type of work

1548
01:50:37,208 --> 01:50:39,750
so that we can be more impactful and not

1549
01:50:39,750 --> 01:50:41,625
rely on the billionaires and the big

1550
01:50:41,625 --> 01:50:44,083
foundations as much as we as we did

1551
01:50:44,083 --> 01:50:45,500
because there are more people trying to

1552
01:50:45,500 --> 01:50:45,833
get into this game and trying to do that.

1553
01:50:46,791 --> 01:50:46,916
And so I think it's really important to

1554
01:50:46,916 --> 01:50:49,291
do some work, some great work, but it's

1555
01:50:49,291 --> 01:50:50,916
harder to get funding. So that's that's

1556
01:50:50,916 --> 01:50:53,625
always definitely tough. And with that

1557
01:50:53,625 --> 01:50:55,000
said, there is a donate button on the

1558
01:50:55,000 --> 01:50:56,291
website. So we're going to link to that.

1559
01:50:56,291 --> 01:50:57,625
So people want to donate. They get

1560
01:50:57,625 --> 01:50:59,625
inspired by this podcast and what you're

1561
01:50:59,625 --> 01:51:01,125
saying. And the fact that you can

1562
01:51:01,125 --> 01:51:01,791
actually do quite a bit.

1563
01:51:01,833 --> 01:51:03,750
You know, please go donate. We'll put

1564
01:51:03,750 --> 01:51:05,250
that in the show notes. So, you know,

1565
01:51:05,250 --> 01:51:07,583
feel free to do that. But, you know,

1566
01:51:07,875 --> 01:51:09,208
Andy, this has been great. I know you and

1567
01:51:09,208 --> 01:51:10,833
I could probably talk for hours and hours

1568
01:51:10,833 --> 01:51:12,666
on end. But I'd love to invite you back

1569
01:51:12,666 --> 01:51:14,666
on to talk more about the projects, you

1570
01:51:14,666 --> 01:51:16,791
know, at Citizen of the Reef and to be

1571
01:51:16,791 --> 01:51:19,041
able to, you know, this was kind of a it

1572
01:51:19,041 --> 01:51:20,125
was kind of fun because it was like not

1573
01:51:20,125 --> 01:51:21,291
only getting to know you, but a bit of a

1574
01:51:21,291 --> 01:51:23,541
workshopping type of episode. And I think

1575
01:51:23,541 --> 01:51:25,333
people got to listen in on this, which I

1576
01:51:25,333 --> 01:51:27,083
think is a really, really fun episode to

1577
01:51:27,083 --> 01:51:29,041
do. But I'd love to invite you back on or

1578
01:51:29,041 --> 01:51:30,791
even there's a fun to talk about your the work that you're doing.

1579
01:51:30,833 --> 01:51:32,250
But you're the work that you guys are

1580
01:51:32,250 --> 01:51:34,541
doing and how helpful it is and all the

1581
01:51:34,541 --> 01:51:36,500
the improvements that you're able to make

1582
01:51:36,500 --> 01:51:39,041
and to these systems and to the reef. So

1583
01:51:39,041 --> 01:51:40,666
thank you so much for coming on the show.

1584
01:51:41,000 --> 01:51:42,333
Hey, thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks for

1585
01:51:42,333 --> 01:51:45,000
getting us on and yes, cool cool podcast.

1586
01:51:45,666 --> 01:51:48,083
So, you know, Andrew. Yeah, thanks, man.

1587
01:51:48,458 --> 01:51:50,375
You love to come back on or get someone

1588
01:51:50,375 --> 01:51:51,750
more interesting from a team to come on,

1589
01:51:51,750 --> 01:51:55,666
but it's been a pleasure. You've been you

1590
01:51:55,666 --> 01:51:57,375
notice like to give them extremely long

1591
01:51:57,375 --> 01:51:58,916
answers to all the questions. Sorry about

1592
01:51:58,916 --> 01:51:59,791
this, is what a podcast is for.

1593
01:51:59,833 --> 01:52:02,500
four. I talk a lot. That's why I started

1594
01:52:02,500 --> 01:52:04,791
the podcast. I'm in my

1595
01:52:04,791 --> 01:52:05,833
office by myself talking

1596
01:52:05,833 --> 01:52:07,708
to you, which is great. All right. Well,

1597
01:52:07,708 --> 01:52:08,500
thanks a lot, Andy. We

1598
01:52:08,500 --> 01:52:09,250
really appreciate it.

1599
01:52:09,791 --> 01:52:11,791
Yes, thanks, Matt. Thank you, Andy, for

1600
01:52:11,791 --> 01:52:13,041
joining us on this episode

1601
01:52:13,166 --> 01:52:14,583
of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

1602
01:52:14,791 --> 01:52:15,375
It was great to have

1603
01:52:15,375 --> 01:52:16,666
you on, and I mean that.

1604
01:52:18,333 --> 01:52:20,041
I often get inspired by the guests that I

1605
01:52:20,041 --> 01:52:20,791
have on, hence why I

1606
01:52:20,791 --> 01:52:22,083
have them on. This was

1607
01:52:22,083 --> 01:52:24,916
one of those episodes. I get completely

1608
01:52:24,916 --> 01:52:26,791
inspired in the impact that

1609
01:52:26,791 --> 01:52:28,125
this has been able to have.

1610
01:52:28,625 --> 01:52:30,958
Andy talks about how the data goes to

1611
01:52:30,958 --> 01:52:32,041
Pete Mumbi's lab at

1612
01:52:32,041 --> 01:52:33,500
University of Queensland, and

1613
01:52:33,500 --> 01:52:35,125
it goes into their spatial ecology lab.

1614
01:52:35,416 --> 01:52:37,666
They run models. It's

1615
01:52:37,666 --> 01:52:38,833
continuing to increase in

1616
01:52:38,833 --> 01:52:40,583
the percentage. I think it's 50%. He said

1617
01:52:40,583 --> 01:52:41,833
during the interview of

1618
01:52:41,833 --> 01:52:42,708
how much it contributes

1619
01:52:42,708 --> 01:52:44,791
to the models that they run, looking at

1620
01:52:44,791 --> 01:52:47,250
the broad scale shape

1621
01:52:47,250 --> 01:52:49,208
and size of the reef and

1622
01:52:49,208 --> 01:52:51,208
what's healthy, what's not. It's really

1623
01:52:51,208 --> 01:52:52,916
cool to see. I think

1624
01:52:52,916 --> 01:52:54,291
it's phenomenal, and I want

1625
01:52:54,333 --> 01:52:57,041
to see more of this. I'm so happy that I

1626
01:52:57,041 --> 01:52:58,791
got to speak to Andy today and to be able

1627
01:52:58,791 --> 01:53:00,791
to say, "Hey, you know what? This is an

1628
01:53:00,791 --> 01:53:01,958
impactful reef." What I

1629
01:53:01,958 --> 01:53:03,125
love about this is I have this

1630
01:53:03,166 --> 01:53:05,625
podcast. I have this platform, and Andy's

1631
01:53:05,625 --> 01:53:06,458
team reached out.

1632
01:53:06,458 --> 01:53:07,333
Actually, Andy reached out.

1633
01:53:07,333 --> 01:53:08,291
He's like, "Hey, I'd love to be on your

1634
01:53:08,291 --> 01:53:08,791
podcast." He was a

1635
01:53:08,791 --> 01:53:10,375
communications person. I'm just like,

1636
01:53:10,375 --> 01:53:12,000
"Yeah, this is awesome. Let's do this." I

1637
01:53:12,000 --> 01:53:13,791
never would have known. This is the thing

1638
01:53:13,791 --> 01:53:19,458
that I love about this area of podcasting

1639
01:53:19,458 --> 01:53:20,291
and social media is

1640
01:53:20,291 --> 01:53:21,708
that as I put out more

1641
01:53:21,750 --> 01:53:23,958
episodes, people hear it. Andy said he's

1642
01:53:23,958 --> 01:53:24,583
been listening to us

1643
01:53:24,583 --> 01:53:26,083
for a while. People hear

1644
01:53:26,083 --> 01:53:27,208
it. He's like, "Yeah, I want to share my

1645
01:53:27,208 --> 01:53:28,625
story." They contact me.

1646
01:53:28,625 --> 01:53:29,708
We connect, and we share

1647
01:53:29,708 --> 01:53:32,000
the story, and then you get to listen to

1648
01:53:32,000 --> 01:53:32,666
it, and it gets to go

1649
01:53:32,666 --> 01:53:34,166
out worldwide, and I just

1650
01:53:34,166 --> 01:53:37,958
love it. GreatReefCensus.org.

1651
01:53:37,958 --> 01:53:40,458
GreatReefCensus.org is the website. I

1652
01:53:40,458 --> 01:53:41,458
want you to go visit it.

1653
01:53:41,458 --> 01:53:43,500
I want you to be one of the, right now,

1654
01:53:43,500 --> 01:53:44,500
12,000 people. He wants

1655
01:53:44,500 --> 01:53:46,375
to get 60,000 people to be

1656
01:53:46,375 --> 01:53:48,666
able to pick Reef's and be able to

1657
01:53:48,666 --> 01:53:51,166
categorize it. It's a great way to train

1658
01:53:51,166 --> 01:53:52,208
yourself into understanding

1659
01:53:52,291 --> 01:53:53,375
Reef's for all you early career

1660
01:53:53,375 --> 01:53:54,833
scientists that want to work on Reef's.

1661
01:53:55,125 --> 01:53:55,875
It's a great way to contribute

1662
01:53:56,000 --> 01:53:57,791
to conservation for all those people who

1663
01:53:57,791 --> 01:53:58,541
want to contribute to

1664
01:53:58,541 --> 01:54:00,500
conservation, and it's going to be

1665
01:54:00,500 --> 01:54:02,250
a lot of fun to go through it and to see

1666
01:54:02,250 --> 01:54:04,083
this evolution of this

1667
01:54:04,083 --> 01:54:05,541
program and where it's going

1668
01:54:05,541 --> 01:54:06,833
to go. He's talking about going to other

1669
01:54:06,833 --> 01:54:07,708
Reef's around the world.

1670
01:54:08,083 --> 01:54:10,000
It's all needed. We need the

1671
01:54:10,000 --> 01:54:11,916
help. We need the people. We need you as

1672
01:54:11,916 --> 01:54:12,875
citizen scientists, and you

1673
01:54:12,875 --> 01:54:13,958
can become a citizen scientist

1674
01:54:14,333 --> 01:54:16,208
for free. Isn't that wonderful? For free.

1675
01:54:16,541 --> 01:54:18,125
So let's get on that. I'd

1676
01:54:18,125 --> 01:54:19,333
love to hear your experience.

1677
01:54:19,333 --> 01:54:22,166
So hit me up on Instagram at How to

1678
01:54:22,166 --> 01:54:24,041
Protect the Ocean. If you've signed up or

1679
01:54:24,041 --> 01:54:25,750
you've been signed up for a long time,

1680
01:54:25,750 --> 01:54:28,166
let me know. But also let me know in the

1681
01:54:28,166 --> 01:54:29,333
comments if you're watching this on

1682
01:54:29,333 --> 01:54:30,708
YouTube. Just let me know

1683
01:54:30,708 --> 01:54:31,708
what you think of this program.

1684
01:54:31,708 --> 01:54:33,041
If you've signed up or you've been a part

1685
01:54:33,041 --> 01:54:35,125
of it, I'd love to hear your thoughts on

1686
01:54:35,125 --> 01:54:36,333
this. Thank you so much

1687
01:54:36,333 --> 01:54:37,625
to Andy for joining us.

1688
01:54:37,625 --> 01:54:38,875
Thank you for his team for the work that

1689
01:54:38,875 --> 01:54:40,791
he does and the work he and his team do,

1690
01:54:41,333 --> 01:54:42,708
and we want to thank you for listening to

1691
01:54:42,708 --> 01:54:43,500
this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

1692
01:54:44,625 --> 01:54:46,583
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from the true

1693
01:54:46,583 --> 01:54:48,791
north strong and free and soon to be

1694
01:54:48,791 --> 01:54:50,666
citizen scientists looking at

1695
01:54:50,666 --> 01:54:52,625
Reef's on a very daily basis.

1696
01:54:53,083 --> 01:54:54,750
I can't wait to do that. But thank you so

1697
01:54:54,750 --> 01:54:56,458
much for joining us on today's episode of

1698
01:54:56,458 --> 01:54:57,666
the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

1699
01:54:57,833 --> 01:54:59,041
Have a great day. We'll talk to you next

1700
01:54:59,041 --> 01:55:00,208
time and happy conservation.