Deep Sea Mining: What Happened In 2024?

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2024 for deep sea mining was a crazy year. So

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much happened. Norway started to

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deep sea mine. They were exploring to deep sea mine. Then all of a sudden they're not doing

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it anymore. What happened? There was a change in leadership with

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the ISA. What happened? All this stuff happened, but

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we didn't really know how it all happened. So actually, Dr. Andrew

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Thaler, who's been on the podcast before to talk about deep sea mining, contacted me

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and said, hey, Andrew, do you want to talk about deep sea mining and everything that happened in

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2024? Because so much happened. I want to talk about it. I

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said, absolutely. Let's have you on the podcast. So today we're going to be talking about

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deep sea mining. What happened in 2024? The good, the bad and the ugly. We're going

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to talk about it on today's episode of How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Let's start

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the show. Hey

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everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm

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your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how

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you can speak up for the ocean, and what you can do to live for a better ocean by

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taking action. On today's episode, we're going to be talking about

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deep sea mining and everything that happened in the last year. So much has happened.

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that Dr. Andrew Thaler, a good friend of mine, is coming on the podcast to talk

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about it today. And we're going to find out much more about it. But if you want to know

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a lot of stuff about the ocean and you don't know where to go, this is

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your resource. Not only is this podcast a resource, but you can go over to our website at

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speakupforblue.com and check it out. And you'll find all of

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our old episodes. We have over 1,700 episodes

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up there. Other podcasts that deal with wildlife and oceans and

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sharks and marine mammal veterinary stuff

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and veterinary stuff for the ocean. There's so much stuff that goes on there.

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You want to check it out, go to speakupforblue.com. And if you want some of that information to

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Let's start the show. Today we've got Dr. Andrew Thaler who's talking

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about deep sea mining. All the stuff that happened.

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We're going to be talking about what's the best type of deep sea mining. Not necessarily the

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best, but what's the least impactful deep sea mining activity

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that we can do. And why does Andrew Thaler not

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want to sign on to this agreement

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and say, hey, you know, this is good to agreement. What's the problem here? What's going

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to happen? He's going to talk about that as well. We're going to talk about the dark oxygen

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story that came out and what is coming up with that. What's new

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with that? And if it's legitimate, if it's still new research, is

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it, you know, some more research needs to be done. We're going to find out about a lot of stuff on

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this episode. So here is the interview with Dr. Andrew Thaler talking

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about deep sea mining in 2024. Enjoy the interview and we'll talk to

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you after. Hey Andrew, welcome back to the How to Protect the Ocean

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It has been, and we've been trying to cover it. I

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cited a lot of the stuff from our last interview that

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you did, where you came in and you talked about deep sea

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mining and where it was at, and you talked about the newsletter and

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the magazine that you did, and all the work that you've done, and we talked about a

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history of deep sea mining and stuff. And now, that

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last meeting was quite interesting. And even

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the meeting after that was quite interesting. So the last two meetings were quite interesting. And

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you called me up and you're like, hey, Andrew, let's talk some

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DC buy. Let's talk some updates from 2024 and what to expect from 2025. And I was like,

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you know what? My audience

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loves to hear about deep sea mining, because I think a lot of us are petrified about

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what's happening. And there's a lot of news out there. There's a lot of stuff that goes

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on. It's really difficult to kind of filter through some

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of the stuff that's real, some of the stuff that's not real, and what's happening, and getting updates.

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Because it seems like it's changing quite a bit. So we're going to get into

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all that. But just to remind some of the audience who

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are new to this podcast who you are and what

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All right. So hello, everybody. I am Andrew Thaler. I

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am a deep sea ecologist and a high seas policy expert. And

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my work focuses on how humans use technology to

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explore and exploit the ocean, especially the most

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remote parts of the ocean. So I have done a lot of work with deep

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sea mining over the years. I've been in

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the industry in some sort of fashion for almost 15 years

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now, maybe even more, 17 years. I

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have been out on deep sea mining vessels. I have worked on environmental impact

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assessments for deep sea mining proposals. I

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have run the Deep Sea Mining Observer, which was the trade journal that covers

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the industry. I have worked

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with NGOs who are trying to find ways

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to stop deep-sea mining, find ways to stop certain kinds of deep-sea mining,

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find ways to make deep-sea mining more responsible and more sustainable,

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or find ways to just advise on creating the best possible policy

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surrounding deep-sea mining. So I have been in the thick

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of it from just about every angle you can think of, and it

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has been a wild ride. And

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I will tell you what I told people in 2008, which is

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Yes. That's what we talked about. And I remember when we

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first discussed this, it was really far away. It was

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like, will this ever happen? I think last time we discussed this, I

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think it was at IMCC 2016. That sounds about

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right. In Newfoundland. And you were like, probably won't happen till about 2030, to

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be honest, like from the technology perspective and the policy perspective. And

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we're almost there. And I think it might be a little delayed just

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a little bit longer. But there's a lot of scary things going

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on, a lot of things that are being said, a lot of things that are happening

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where I believe it was Denmark that went out to do some

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Norway, sorry, Norway, Denmark's on my mind these days

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with Greenland, but Norway that decided to go out and do some exploration, and

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a couple of other countries that are dabbling in it. So I

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think people are wondering, is it okay for countries to

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go out, from a legal perspective, are

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they allowed to go out and do it, and in what situation are

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they allowed, under what context are they allowed to go and do the exploration?

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All right, so that is a great question. Let's start with Norway, because Norway is

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kind of like an encapsulation of the last year of deep sea

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mining. Beginning of January 2024, Norwegian

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parliament comes out and says, we are going to begin issuing exploration

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permits for deep sea mining of inactive hydrothermal

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vents in our national waters. Countries can do

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whatever they want in their national waters depending on their own laws The

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big regulations and restrictions are what's happening in international waters

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But in national waters, it's national law, so every country's

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got its own rule set They can do what they want Norway said we're going to start

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issuing exploration permits That surprised a

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lot of people because Norway has been, you know, they're a huge offshore

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oil and gas producer But they're also a very strong environmentally conscientious

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society So there was quite a bit of pushback

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from that. It looked for a while like Norway was going to move forward. And

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then in December, as the Norwegian parliament was

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brokering a deal for their budget for the next year, one

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of the stipulations from one of the smaller parties in their parliament that

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they needed to get the votes to get their budget done, one of their stipulations was,

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we don't want deep sea mining permits. And so that was scrapped. This

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entire year for deep sea mining has been a flurry of

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activity that has resulted us ultimately ending up kind

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Yes. From an environmental perspective, we are slowly working

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towards a set of environmental regulations that No

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one's going to particularly like, but everyone will probably be grudgingly

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consent to, which is the best you can hope for for big

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international negotiations. And that process has

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been ongoing for decades and is slowly creeping towards

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conclusion. Polymetallic nodule mining. Now,

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I've been on this show before. I've said a lot of times deep sea mining is three different industries.

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Polymetallic nodule mining is different from hydrothermal vent mining. It's

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different from seamount mining. They all have their own impacts.

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They all have their own consequences. They all have their own

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sort of justifications. And when

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I left the Deep Sea Mining Observer, the first action I did

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as a not-journalist covering deep sea mining was to sign on

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to the scientists' sign-on letter for calls for moratorium on

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the development of the deep sea mining regulations. And the reason I

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did that is not because I didn't think there was a future for deep sea mining. The reason I

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did that is because The current policy being negotiated at

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the ISA is a unitary mining code that

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covers all three kinds of deep sea mining. Gotcha. And so, you

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know, the folks who are working on polymetallic nodule mining, they have a

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pretty good argument. I don't think they're 100% there yet, but I think there's

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a real possibility that they could get to the point where they could have

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an environmentally justifiable industry. For hydrothermal vent

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mining, for seabound mining, for cobalt rich crust,

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I don't think there's any future for those that could possibly have environmental

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justifications. And so as long as there's a unitary mining code,

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you know. giving permission to the best form

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of mining if that also gives permission to the worst forms of mining is

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Why do you think they did that? Why do you think they wanted to just spread it around to

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So it's really curious because this is the

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second set of mining code negotiations that has

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happened. And the first set was for the exploration permits. So

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exploration for deep sea mining is prospecting. It's

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the process of going out into an ecosystem, looking for the ore bodies,

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identifying where there might actually be valuable ore, doing

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the initial environmental impact assessments and then going back and saying, I

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think there's something valuable here. Can we have permission to go on further? And

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then you apply for an exploitation permit. The

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ISA negotiated separate mining regulations for all three

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ore bodies for the exploration permits. So there is

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a separate set of rules for exploration for polymetallic nodules

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and for hydrothermal vents and for cobalt-rich seamounts. But

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for whatever reason, and I think the reason is the people who really, really want to

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do hydrothermal vent and cobalt-rich seamount mining know they're not going to be able to

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get it through unless they get it all through together. For that

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reason, almost certainly, they've decided on a unitary mining code for

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Okay. Interesting. Interesting. So your position here

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is, and why you signed on, it was the fact that it was the full,

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like they were doing a unitary sort of commitment to saying you

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can explore whatever type you want. You're like, no, that's not the

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way we go forward. Let's move forward in a proper way

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and let's look at one specific one that will be the least amount of

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Exactly. And part of that is that the most advanced

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mining companies right now are all looking for polymetallic nodules. The

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financial regime, which is a big hang up that we can get into

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if you really want to get into the economics of things, that's currently being

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negotiated is looking at projections from polymetallic nodule mining.

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The environmental work has all been developed on environmental, not

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environmental, on polymetallic nodule mining. And so we're in

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a situation where You

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know, best is probably not the right word because we're still talking about an extractive industry,

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but the least worst form of mining is driving the negotiation forward, but

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it's dragging worst forms of mining along with it. And

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I think because hydrothermal vents and cobalt-rich

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seamounts aren't being considered in nearly the same detail, we're

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going to be left with a mining code that preferentially discusses

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polymetallic nodule mining with regulations shaped

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around that. And we end up in situations where we're going to encounter regulations that

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don't address impacts that are happening. at things like hydrothermal vents

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and seamounts. Because these are very different ecosystems. They're

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very different geologically. They're very different ecologically. They're

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Yes, the hydrothermal vents especially. I know usually,

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I know in Canada we've protected on our west coast a

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huge system of hydrothermal vents on

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purpose because, you know, not only for that but just for the biodiversity,

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the uniqueness of the habitat is very distinctive and we

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even expanded it a couple of years ago or about four or five years ago to

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make it even bigger than what it was. Do we

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know the detrimental effect it would have if we did hydrothermal vent

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The big thing with hydrothermal vent mining in particular is that the

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process that builds the hydrothermal vent is the same

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process that creates the ore and is the same process that

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supports chemosynthetic communities. So you can't have one without

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the other. You can't remove one without removing the other. When

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you're looking at mining a hydrothermal vent, you are looking at comprehensive removal

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of the ecosystem because the ore is the ecosystem. The

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chemical processes that drive the vents is the chemical processes that

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produce the ore. And so you're really looking at comprehensive total

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removal of an ecosystem from the seafloor because it happens to be rich in gold

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and silver and nickel. You know, when you look at a

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polymetallic nodule field, polymetallic nodule fields are

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scattered across the abyssal plane. They cover probably 60% of the surface

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of the earth. There's a huge ecosystem. It's incredibly spread out.

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Like I don't like to write off any

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particular ecosystem, but in terms of resilience, like… There's

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a lot more polymetallic nodule field in the world than

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there is hydrothermal vents. If you took all the known hydrothermal vent fields

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on the planet, the ones we've seen with

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ROVs and with submarines and the ones we've hypothesized through looking for chemical signatures,

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if you took that total surface area, it's smaller than Manhattan. Wow.

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So we are talking about, you know, you're making regulations on

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one hand that are regulating the biggest ecosystem on

227
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the planet and also one of the smallest ecosystems on the planet. And

228
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And so you're saying when we, if we mine a hydrothermal vent,

229
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we remove that entire hydrothermal vent that ceases to

230
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exist. Exactly. So we will go through that a lot faster than

231
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Yes, and it's very oar-dense. And

232
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so I think the most valuable one out there they projected was

233
00:14:33,886 --> 00:14:37,369
worth something like $210 million. Dear lord. Which,

234
00:14:37,569 --> 00:14:41,112
you know, is a lot of money, but I don't know if it's enough money to justify losing

235
00:14:43,137 --> 00:14:46,460
Yeah. Now here, you know, obviously you and I and our audience

236
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members understand the value of, you

237
00:14:49,602 --> 00:14:52,744
know, a unique habitat such as hydrothermal vents. But there are a lot of

238
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people out there who are just like, well, if we lose it, what's the big deal?

239
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You know, we just lose this. Do we know the impact that that

240
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would have on the deep sea in general? Or is that still under,

241
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because we haven't really lost them or haven't really known that we've lost them. We

242
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don't know the impact it would have on the rest of the deep sea ecosystem in and

243
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So here is the argument that a

244
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mining company would make that wants to mine an

245
00:15:17,992 --> 00:15:21,575
active hydrothermal vent. Yeah. Hydrothermal vents

246
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are geologically active. They have

247
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their own turnover. In some cases, like if you're in the Western Pacific,

248
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the average lifespan of a hydrothermal vent is 10 years. These

249
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are volcanically active regions. They erupt. Sometimes they get

250
00:15:36,650 --> 00:15:40,113
buried by lava flows. They turn on, they shut down.

251
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They're very dynamic ecosystems. There is

252
00:15:44,097 --> 00:15:47,500
an argument to be made that they are incredibly resilient

253
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to disturbance. That's how they've evolved. There's

254
00:15:51,074 --> 00:15:54,995
an equally valid argument to be made that natural disturbance versus

255
00:15:55,315 --> 00:15:58,596
anthropogenic disturbance, which is an additive function of disturbance, we don't

256
00:15:58,636 --> 00:16:01,896
really know what the consequences of that could possibly be. But when you're talking about

257
00:16:01,936 --> 00:16:05,297
completely removing a hydrothermal vent ecosystem, you're

258
00:16:05,397 --> 00:16:09,478
losing genetic conductivity between different

259
00:16:09,498 --> 00:16:13,179
hydrothermal vent systems. You may be breaking stepping

260
00:16:13,219 --> 00:16:16,359
stones that prevent downstream hydrothermal vent

261
00:16:16,399 --> 00:16:19,820
ecosystems from being recolonized as they turn over. And

262
00:16:21,361 --> 00:16:25,684
hydrothermal vents are nasty. Like these are full of heavy metals.

263
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There's arsenic in them. They're slightly radioactive. You've

264
00:16:30,887 --> 00:16:34,269
got a lot of other very nasty heavy metals

265
00:16:34,309 --> 00:16:38,311
that are produced and embedded within the hydrothermal vent chimney. They're

266
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sulfur rich. And so you go in with a mining tool and

267
00:16:41,933 --> 00:16:45,095
you begin grinding. I mean it's functionally strip mining when you're talking about a

268
00:16:45,115 --> 00:16:48,897
hydrothermal vent. you're creating a plume. You're

269
00:16:48,937 --> 00:16:52,338
creating a toxic metal radioactive plume that spreads across

270
00:16:52,358 --> 00:16:55,980
the seafloor. And so that plume is going to settle out in the surrounding sediment

271
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and who knows how much further it'll perfuse across the

272
00:17:00,862 --> 00:17:04,184
seafloor. So it is going to have knockdown effects on halo fauna

273
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as well. It's going to impact the animals around

274
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hydrothermal vents that aren't necessarily dependent on hydrothermal vents. And

275
00:17:11,047 --> 00:17:14,349
if you're talking about a mining vessel where you're going to have like a dewatering plume,

276
00:17:15,189 --> 00:17:18,431
that's coming off the vessel after the ore returns to the surface, that's going

277
00:17:18,451 --> 00:17:23,213
to end up in the mid-water, and it's going to be impacting things like fisheries. But

278
00:17:23,233 --> 00:17:26,354
that's hydrothermal vent mining. And a thing I want to highlight is that

279
00:17:26,494 --> 00:17:29,816
right now, the real push is for polymetallic nodule mining. And

280
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that's where things are happening at the ISA. And for the most

281
00:17:33,197 --> 00:17:36,519
part at this moment, when people talk about deep sea mining,

282
00:17:36,539 --> 00:17:39,840
with a few exceptions, they are talking about polymetallic nodule mining.

283
00:17:42,051 --> 00:17:45,353
With this type of mining, how is it done? You talked

284
00:17:45,393 --> 00:17:48,515
a little bit about the hydrothermal vent, how it's just basically you're grinding it

285
00:17:52,498 --> 00:17:56,420
Polymetallic nodules are very weird

286
00:17:56,900 --> 00:18:00,482
rocks. We're not 100% sure

287
00:18:00,502 --> 00:18:03,844
the exact geochemical process for how they form, but

288
00:18:04,084 --> 00:18:08,326
the kind of broad strokes is that a small nucleating agent, some

289
00:18:08,366 --> 00:18:11,447
kind of a hard object, it's often like the test of

290
00:18:11,487 --> 00:18:14,628
a diatom or a radiolarin, but it's sometimes something as big as

291
00:18:14,688 --> 00:18:18,510
a shark's tooth, when it sinks into the deep sea, very

292
00:18:18,570 --> 00:18:22,372
slowly over the course of millions of years, heavy metals from

293
00:18:22,412 --> 00:18:25,753
the surrounding seawater accrete around this

294
00:18:25,813 --> 00:18:29,555
hard nucleating agent. And basically

295
00:18:29,595 --> 00:18:32,876
it's a rock that grows and it takes four, five, six million years to grow,

296
00:18:33,236 --> 00:18:36,537
but it's a rock that grows. A weird thing about

297
00:18:36,597 --> 00:18:40,118
it is they don't sink. So

298
00:18:40,138 --> 00:18:43,540
they sit on the seafloor, but you don't ever find them buried in

299
00:18:43,580 --> 00:18:46,842
the sediment. So there's some long-term process that

300
00:18:47,563 --> 00:18:52,166
we're not really sure. There's one hypothesis that burrowing animals

301
00:18:52,266 --> 00:18:56,250
underneath them are causing uplift. There's another hypothesis

302
00:18:56,310 --> 00:19:00,013
that the process of forming a nodule is biogenic,

303
00:19:00,073 --> 00:19:03,576
so there's microbes that are part of that, and that the nodule

304
00:19:03,596 --> 00:19:07,239
is actually breaking down as it contacts the sediment and then reaccreting

305
00:19:07,279 --> 00:19:10,401
on top. But these are all hypotheses. There's also the

306
00:19:10,441 --> 00:19:13,863
possibility that just the topology of the seafloor and the movement of

307
00:19:13,923 --> 00:19:18,165
sediment across the seafloor causes them to remain on the surface. So

308
00:19:18,185 --> 00:19:21,306
they're weird. They're a rock that grows. And

309
00:19:21,326 --> 00:19:24,588
they're a rock that grows into an object that contains the

310
00:19:24,628 --> 00:19:27,890
things we need in an electric vehicle battery. So they're

311
00:19:27,970 --> 00:19:31,415
rich in cobalt. They're rich in nickel. They're not super rich

312
00:19:31,455 --> 00:19:35,700
in copper but they have some copper and they're rich in manganese, which

313
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,284
are all elements that go into next generation renewable energy

314
00:19:39,304 --> 00:19:42,588
technologies. So there is an

315
00:19:42,648 --> 00:19:46,011
environmental argument to be made. that if

316
00:19:46,051 --> 00:19:49,632
we want to get off fossil fuels, if we want to electrify the world's automotive

317
00:19:49,672 --> 00:19:54,033
fleets, if we want to shift towards renewable energy, we

318
00:19:54,093 --> 00:19:58,375
might have to go to sea to get the metals necessary to build that technology. I

319
00:19:58,395 --> 00:20:01,555
don't find that argument particularly compelling anymore. I used to find it

320
00:20:01,595 --> 00:20:04,956
much, much more compelling. But technology has

321
00:20:05,016 --> 00:20:08,777
moved on. Only 20% of

322
00:20:08,797 --> 00:20:12,459
the electric vehicles being made in China right now are using

323
00:20:12,839 --> 00:20:16,420
batteries that contain cobalt. They're using next generation batteries.

324
00:20:16,460 --> 00:20:21,122
They're using lithium iron phosphate battery chemistries that

325
00:20:21,162 --> 00:20:25,026
are cheaper and more stable. … and don't require this incredibly expensive

326
00:20:25,326 --> 00:20:28,431
metal that's hard to access. And

327
00:20:28,471 --> 00:20:31,916
so I think the technology itself has moved faster than deep-sea mining

328
00:20:31,936 --> 00:20:35,080
has progressed to a point where I'm not sure – and I'm

329
00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:38,485
not an economist, so what the heck do I know? But

330
00:20:38,525 --> 00:20:41,747
I'm not sure the economic argument for deep sea mining makes a ton of

331
00:20:41,787 --> 00:20:44,929
sense anymore. And I think the commodities market has played that out.

332
00:20:44,969 --> 00:20:48,812
So cobalt and nickel right now are in kind of historic ruts. They're

333
00:20:48,832 --> 00:20:52,294
both in a major surplus. They're both trading at kind of their

334
00:20:52,334 --> 00:20:57,698
historic minimums. projections

335
00:20:57,738 --> 00:21:01,201
for deep sea mining. In the summer of 2023, they

336
00:21:01,341 --> 00:21:05,325
revised the model for a hypothetical

337
00:21:05,365 --> 00:21:08,887
polymetallic nodule mine based off of metals values

338
00:21:08,928 --> 00:21:12,090
at the time. And since then, they've lost about $400 million a

339
00:21:12,110 --> 00:21:15,673
year in value. Just a little bit.

340
00:21:15,713 --> 00:21:19,156
So the economics are not really shaking out in deep sea mining's favor

341
00:21:19,276 --> 00:21:23,877
at the moment. On the other hand, There's

342
00:21:23,997 --> 00:21:27,380
another issue at play, and you've almost certainly

343
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,784
heard me do this line before, but I say deep sea mining is

344
00:21:30,844 --> 00:21:34,288
three industries. Deep sea mining is really four

345
00:21:34,328 --> 00:21:38,312
industries. And that fourth industry is geopolitics.

346
00:21:40,666 --> 00:21:43,790
Deep sea mining is deeply embedded in

347
00:21:43,910 --> 00:21:49,517
kind of great power struggles, geopolitical, diplomatic

348
00:21:49,637 --> 00:21:53,122
brinksmanship, that kind of thing. Countries use

349
00:21:53,142 --> 00:21:56,646
deep sea mining as a tool to argue for the expansion

350
00:21:56,666 --> 00:22:00,609
of their outer continental shelf. which expands their EEZ. They

351
00:22:00,749 --> 00:22:04,671
use it to assert sovereignty over different areas of the seafloor. They

352
00:22:04,731 --> 00:22:08,173
use it for prestige. And they use it to access

353
00:22:08,273 --> 00:22:11,715
metals when we have things like security issues. So, you

354
00:22:11,735 --> 00:22:15,317
know, cobalt is in a historic surplus,

355
00:22:15,337 --> 00:22:18,598
but cobalt is also 90% produced by the Democratic Republic of

356
00:22:18,638 --> 00:22:21,840
the Congo, and those mines are largely controlled by China. If you're

357
00:22:21,860 --> 00:22:25,162
a country like the United States that suddenly is very adverse to trading with

358
00:22:25,202 --> 00:22:28,614
China, there is a geopolitical argument to

359
00:22:28,654 --> 00:22:32,397
be made for accessing other sources of these critical minerals. And

360
00:22:32,477 --> 00:22:35,960
so we've seen that with the major private companies

361
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,083
who want to do deep sea mining pivoting away from the

362
00:22:39,123 --> 00:22:42,425
environmental argument and the sustainability argument and towards the

363
00:22:42,906 --> 00:22:47,349
national security argument, the critical minerals argument, the resource

364
00:22:47,389 --> 00:22:50,524
independence argument. And I think, you know, I think

365
00:22:50,544 --> 00:22:54,046
that has some staying power for a lot of people. That's certainly a compelling argument,

366
00:22:54,106 --> 00:22:58,128
I know, for a lot of the national security hawks that I talk to. So

367
00:22:58,208 --> 00:23:01,549
on that token, this has been like the biggest year in a long time

368
00:23:01,609 --> 00:23:04,851
for the U.S. getting involved in deep sea mining. And I'm even talking about

369
00:23:04,891 --> 00:23:08,893
before the Trump administration kicked off. Right. So

370
00:23:09,033 --> 00:23:12,194
early in the year, Congresswoman Miller of

371
00:23:12,234 --> 00:23:17,845
West Virginia introduced a bill to incentivize polymetallic

372
00:23:17,885 --> 00:23:22,007
nodule refining on the U.S., on U.S. soil, which

373
00:23:22,387 --> 00:23:25,529
is kind of an interesting case. So the U.S. doesn't deep-sea mine, and

374
00:23:25,549 --> 00:23:28,890
the U.S. isn't a signatory to UNCLOS, the U.N. Convention of

375
00:23:28,910 --> 00:23:32,212
the Law of the Sea, which means the U.S. is

376
00:23:32,312 --> 00:23:35,413
not beholden to the rules of the U.N., but we also don't get

377
00:23:35,453 --> 00:23:39,275
to negotiate, and we also don't really get to access the

378
00:23:39,295 --> 00:23:42,541
mineral resources of the high seas. But

379
00:23:42,601 --> 00:23:45,882
we can refine them and one of the things the US can do that the

380
00:23:46,223 --> 00:23:49,324
other countries who are signatories to the UN Convention on the Law

381
00:23:49,344 --> 00:23:53,226
of the Sea can't do is create privileged markets. So

382
00:23:53,446 --> 00:23:56,587
if you are Canada, if you are Great Britain, if you are

383
00:23:56,687 --> 00:24:00,068
China or Russia or Singapore and you deep sea mine, the

384
00:24:00,168 --> 00:24:03,490
metals you mine have to go into the same market as terrestrially produced metals.

385
00:24:04,150 --> 00:24:07,331
You can't say we're only going to mine the deep sea and sell deep sea

386
00:24:07,371 --> 00:24:10,792
minerals. You can't privilege the source of the metal. And

387
00:24:10,812 --> 00:24:14,373
that's in place so that developing countries can't be bullied out of existence

388
00:24:14,513 --> 00:24:17,955
by deep sea mining. And if those countries, if

389
00:24:18,135 --> 00:24:21,776
their terrestrial industries are negatively impacted, they have to be compensated.

390
00:24:23,696 --> 00:24:27,398
So the US, because we didn't sign, we can do that. We can say we only want to put deep

391
00:24:27,418 --> 00:24:32,504
sea metals in our cars. We don't want cobalt from the Congo. And

392
00:24:32,644 --> 00:24:35,886
so I think the argument for having the U.S. be

393
00:24:35,906 --> 00:24:39,168
a refining center for polymetallic nodules, so they'll be

394
00:24:39,208 --> 00:24:42,670
mined on the high seas by an international company and then landed

395
00:24:42,710 --> 00:24:46,191
in the U.S. to be refined, you know, I think that

396
00:24:46,332 --> 00:24:49,393
argument has some weight to it. And I

397
00:24:49,433 --> 00:24:52,595
think from an economic standpoint, there's a lot of people who want to see that

398
00:24:52,635 --> 00:24:56,238
happen. And quite frankly, like,

399
00:24:56,838 --> 00:25:00,342
you know, the US isn't great on refining metals, but like,

400
00:25:00,402 --> 00:25:03,565
we're an awful lot better than some countries. So like, you

401
00:25:03,585 --> 00:25:06,788
know, that environmental impact is going to happen somewhere, you know, the US isn't

402
00:25:06,828 --> 00:25:10,455
the worst choice. Yeah, for sure. Maybe

403
00:25:10,475 --> 00:25:13,557
it doesn't have to happen at all, because there's no economic value in

404
00:25:14,938 --> 00:25:18,040
Well, I think that's a question I have for you too, because last time you

405
00:25:18,060 --> 00:25:22,002
were on, I remember you saying that even if we were to start mining,

406
00:25:22,042 --> 00:25:26,084
say today, like full-fledged mining, it would take 50 years

407
00:25:26,505 --> 00:25:29,826
for it to really come into production and be in an actual

408
00:25:32,984 --> 00:25:36,086
So it wasn't that it would take 50 years for it to come into production and be in

409
00:25:36,126 --> 00:25:40,610
a battery. It would be, it was that it would be, you

410
00:25:40,650 --> 00:25:43,892
know, 30 year minimum for it to reach the scale where it's even

411
00:25:43,972 --> 00:25:47,735
remotely competitive with terrestrial mining operations. Gotcha. Okay.

412
00:25:47,775 --> 00:25:50,977
So it's, you know, and I think the line I was giving then and it's the line I

413
00:25:50,997 --> 00:25:55,640
still do now is that, you know, deep sea mining may be a possible

414
00:25:56,861 --> 00:26:00,625
a route to sustainability to reach 2050 or

415
00:26:01,446 --> 00:26:05,050
2100 targets, but it's certainly not going to help us reach 2030 climate targets.

416
00:26:05,551 --> 00:26:08,754
And I think I probably said that in 2019, and now we're at 2025. It

417
00:26:08,774 --> 00:26:12,658
definitely is not going to help us meet any climate

418
00:26:12,678 --> 00:26:15,882
targets for 2030, and probably not for 2050 either. It

419
00:26:15,922 --> 00:26:19,145
might be a solution for 2075. And

420
00:26:19,165 --> 00:26:22,327
so for that reason, you know, deep sea mining has time, which is one

421
00:26:22,347 --> 00:26:25,868
of the reasons why I think it's kind of silly to do this unitary mining code when, you

422
00:26:25,888 --> 00:26:29,790
know, we can take our time and get it right. This is the first time in human history where

423
00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:33,312
we've negotiated the rules for an extractive industry before

424
00:26:33,352 --> 00:26:36,853
the industry has been able to extract. And so, like, why not

425
00:26:36,953 --> 00:26:40,475
make it the example for resource extraction?

426
00:26:42,896 --> 00:26:46,657
Yeah, it's such an opportunity, right? It's such an opportunity. Now

427
00:26:46,717 --> 00:26:49,978
with that said, you know, like we're talking about the advancements of

428
00:26:50,038 --> 00:26:53,598
battery technology and that it doesn't need as much cobalt and

429
00:26:53,958 --> 00:26:57,259
you mentioned, what is it, 20% of Chinese batteries

430
00:26:57,279 --> 00:27:00,640
that are being made for EVs are not even using cobalt or

431
00:27:04,501 --> 00:27:08,030
Is there a possibility that you know, they won't

432
00:27:11,171 --> 00:27:14,532
Absolutely. So, you know, the two battery

433
00:27:14,572 --> 00:27:17,954
technologies that are really starting to come online that are exciting to

434
00:27:17,994 --> 00:27:21,375
me, in terms of not being anti-deep sea

435
00:27:21,395 --> 00:27:26,277
mining, but in terms of getting us off our need for minerals at all, are

436
00:27:26,317 --> 00:27:29,858
solid state batteries, They use graphene and

437
00:27:29,878 --> 00:27:34,239
they use an acid gel as

438
00:27:34,279 --> 00:27:37,840
their electrolyte so that you have these batteries that are very

439
00:27:37,900 --> 00:27:41,721
stable, very fast charging. They're basically gigantic capacitors. You

440
00:27:41,761 --> 00:27:44,942
can dump all the amps into them all at once so you don't

441
00:27:45,002 --> 00:27:48,482
have to do that whole sitting and charging for 45 minutes thing.

442
00:27:49,603 --> 00:27:52,723
When you're fast charging and driving across the country, you can just dump all the

443
00:27:52,763 --> 00:27:56,905
juice in all at once and they're perfectly stable and they run fine. They

444
00:27:56,925 --> 00:28:00,527
don't need any heavy metals for the most part, at least the best chemistries

445
00:28:00,567 --> 00:28:03,890
I've seen. And that's really appealing because that makes them

446
00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:07,552
much, much more accessible with a much lighter

447
00:28:07,592 --> 00:28:11,035
footprint. Sodium batteries are, they're

448
00:28:11,195 --> 00:28:14,838
not as fast discharging. They're incredibly stable

449
00:28:15,278 --> 00:28:18,560
and they can store an awful lot of energy. They're not really a good

450
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,303
electric vehicle battery, but for like municipal power storage,

451
00:28:22,463 --> 00:28:26,586
as we start building a more sustainable renewable grid, Sodium

452
00:28:27,987 --> 00:28:32,950
Or home storage, exactly, yeah. Those sodium batteries will really

453
00:28:32,970 --> 00:28:36,092
take off. So I think – and neither of those particularly need the

454
00:28:36,152 --> 00:28:39,294
metals that we derive from the deep sea. Right. So

455
00:28:39,314 --> 00:28:42,976
I think it all really depends on which battery chemistry wins.

456
00:28:43,817 --> 00:28:47,359
It's like the USB wars. Is it going to be micro USB or mini

457
00:28:47,439 --> 00:28:51,041
USB or USB-C or Blu-ray or

458
00:28:51,121 --> 00:28:54,746
DVD? Now we're in the battery wars. Which battery chemistry

459
00:28:54,766 --> 00:28:57,990
is going to win? The battery chemistry that wins is going to decide whether or

460
00:28:58,050 --> 00:29:01,275
not we really have a strong economic argument to

461
00:29:04,019 --> 00:29:07,261
There was a story that I covered over the last year. And it

462
00:29:07,281 --> 00:29:10,782
talked about these nodules. I think they were probably metallic

463
00:29:10,823 --> 00:29:14,745
nodules that were emitting oxygen. And they

464
00:29:14,765 --> 00:29:18,446
were wondering, is this part of the deep sea ecology? Could

465
00:29:18,506 --> 00:29:21,588
this be something that we could use in

466
00:29:21,608 --> 00:29:25,390
the future as an argument not to, or be very careful

467
00:29:25,570 --> 00:29:28,992
if you're going to take these nodules, because it could be

468
00:29:29,112 --> 00:29:32,453
providing oxygen to the animals and the

469
00:29:34,494 --> 00:29:37,656
So that is the dark oxygen story. Yes. That was

470
00:29:37,716 --> 00:29:41,738
a paper published about polymetallic nodules from the Clarion-Clipperton zone,

471
00:29:42,138 --> 00:29:45,520
where people want to mine. And I think the actual initial research

472
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,701
was funded by a deep sea mining company. So it

473
00:29:48,741 --> 00:29:52,583
is 100% tied to deep sea mining. It is a very preliminary

474
00:29:52,643 --> 00:29:56,445
study. And the results are incredibly tantalizing.

475
00:29:57,066 --> 00:30:00,767
I'm not 100% convinced that they've actually detected

476
00:30:00,828 --> 00:30:04,189
oxygen production yet. And it's hard

477
00:30:04,229 --> 00:30:08,091
to tell what the mechanism is. And

478
00:30:08,411 --> 00:30:11,753
it's one of those things where it's probably, there's probably some kind of, if oxygen is truly

479
00:30:11,773 --> 00:30:15,235
being produced in the volumes they're talking about, it's probably a biogenic process

480
00:30:15,275 --> 00:30:18,996
involving microbes interacting with the nodules. Right. But

481
00:30:19,036 --> 00:30:22,338
that is absolutely – it's an incredibly tantalizing piece of research. It's definitely something to

482
00:30:22,378 --> 00:30:25,939
watch. It's definitely something we want to know more about before we go and

483
00:30:25,999 --> 00:30:29,360
wholesale – Of course. Remove these nodules from the seafloor. So

484
00:30:29,380 --> 00:30:32,662
I think that's a really interesting story that we

485
00:30:32,762 --> 00:30:36,123
definitely need a lot of follow-up on. And that actually kind

486
00:30:36,163 --> 00:30:39,344
of highlights one of the weird paradoxes of the entire deep sea

487
00:30:39,384 --> 00:30:42,565
mining story, which is that these mining companies for

488
00:30:42,585 --> 00:30:46,287
the most part, they're

489
00:30:47,679 --> 00:30:51,181
I won't say they're green companies, but they want to be green companies. They're environmentally motivated

490
00:30:51,221 --> 00:30:54,443
companies. Their fundamental value proposition is that

491
00:30:54,863 --> 00:30:58,025
we need to get off fossil fuels and we have a better way of

492
00:30:58,105 --> 00:31:01,867
getting the metals we need from the seafloor versus from land. Yes.

493
00:31:01,927 --> 00:31:05,589
So there has always been an environmental motivation behind fossil fuels.

494
00:31:06,369 --> 00:31:09,770
Some of these companies, I mean, some of them just want to make money, but most of them are fairly

495
00:31:09,810 --> 00:31:13,272
environmentally motivated. And they funded a lot of research. They

496
00:31:13,352 --> 00:31:17,313
want to do the environmental impact assessments right, to

497
00:31:17,353 --> 00:31:20,614
an extent. They also want to mine, so they don't want the environmental impact assessments to

498
00:31:20,634 --> 00:31:23,956
say no go. But they're funding this

499
00:31:24,016 --> 00:31:27,417
research. A lot of the big research that's come out in the last 10 years

500
00:31:27,457 --> 00:31:30,598
that suggests maybe we shouldn't mine the high seas has come from

501
00:31:30,658 --> 00:31:34,080
funding from deep sea mining companies. And I'm actually one

502
00:31:34,100 --> 00:31:37,742
of the examples of that. I worked on the environmental impact assessment for the Sulwara

503
00:31:37,762 --> 00:31:42,124
I mining project. When I went into that project, I was

504
00:31:42,204 --> 00:31:46,046
pretty persuaded by the argument that this is a dynamic ecosystem that

505
00:31:46,066 --> 00:31:50,528
it turns over on. Sulwara I especially turns over very fast. That

506
00:31:50,568 --> 00:31:54,170
the site itself is underneath an active submarine volcano,

507
00:31:54,530 --> 00:31:58,112
so it's constantly already getting buried by the same chemically

508
00:31:58,152 --> 00:32:01,313
enriched plume that would be produced by the mining tool. They

509
00:32:01,373 --> 00:32:04,515
had a good argument. And so that was one

510
00:32:04,555 --> 00:32:07,697
of the reasons why I felt comfortable working with them

511
00:32:07,757 --> 00:32:11,540
on the environmental impact assessment. And as we progress, and I did my PhD thesis

512
00:32:11,580 --> 00:32:14,742
with them and did a lot of environmental work and did

513
00:32:14,762 --> 00:32:18,064
a lot of connectivity work on the systems, as I progressed through my research,

514
00:32:18,104 --> 00:32:21,566
I slowly came to the conclusion that I don't really

515
00:32:21,606 --> 00:32:24,868
think we can do this kind of thing anywhere without having a

516
00:32:24,949 --> 00:32:28,650
permanent negative impact to the ecosystem. Even in that area? Even

517
00:32:28,690 --> 00:32:32,691
in that area. I think Sul-Warun was probably the best case scenario. And,

518
00:32:32,751 --> 00:32:36,272
you know, it's like the polymetallic nodule argument, right? You know, if it's the least worst,

519
00:32:36,432 --> 00:32:40,733
if you're still opening the gates to the worst, then it's not helping anyone. Exactly.

520
00:32:41,373 --> 00:32:44,614
So like that, I've seen that transition happen among a lot

521
00:32:44,634 --> 00:32:48,194
of a lot of people. And like, you know, the mining companies are,

522
00:32:48,714 --> 00:32:52,275
you know, not every mining company, obviously, like, capitalism is

523
00:32:52,335 --> 00:32:56,056
a thing that drives and motivates people for reasons other than the environment. But

524
00:32:56,136 --> 00:32:59,643
like, The people I know on the ground who do the environmental

525
00:32:59,663 --> 00:33:03,165
work for these companies, who are writing the environmental impact statements, who

526
00:33:03,385 --> 00:33:06,568
are leading their initial research programs, they care about the

527
00:33:06,608 --> 00:33:10,331
environment. And they learn things, and they fund environmental research,

528
00:33:10,351 --> 00:33:13,513
and they fund a lot of environmental research that ultimately says, don't mine here.

529
00:33:14,033 --> 00:33:19,459
Right. Yeah, it's an interesting concept. It's

530
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,922
really weird in this position that we're in where

531
00:33:23,083 --> 00:33:26,706
it seems like, as you mentioned, Norway starts off

532
00:33:27,146 --> 00:33:30,289
January saying, hey, yeah, we're going to explore. And then by the

533
00:33:30,349 --> 00:33:33,992
end of December, the government's like, as they put their budget through, no, there's

534
00:33:34,032 --> 00:33:37,455
a small contingent that says, no, we don't want it in there. And they have to pass the budget. So

535
00:33:37,475 --> 00:33:40,757
that's just the way it goes. Then the other side, as you mentioned, there's

536
00:33:40,797 --> 00:33:44,200
a geopolitical side to it. And that can

537
00:33:44,260 --> 00:33:47,423
drive a lot of movement on a

538
00:33:47,583 --> 00:33:51,986
side for, say, the US or anybody else to activate

539
00:33:52,687 --> 00:33:55,829
some deep sea mining or at least refineries and see how

540
00:33:55,869 --> 00:33:59,952
that works. It seems like because

541
00:33:59,992 --> 00:34:03,778
it's such a global issue, How

542
00:34:04,558 --> 00:34:08,060
do you expect people to react and what do you expect them to do in

543
00:34:08,100 --> 00:34:11,221
this situation? The audience members here, just

544
00:34:11,261 --> 00:34:14,603
like me, are really scratching the surface of deep sea mining and

545
00:34:14,623 --> 00:34:18,225
just really understanding. Obviously you coming on really helps in finding out

546
00:34:18,245 --> 00:34:22,287
the three main different types of ways to mine it and

547
00:34:22,527 --> 00:34:25,689
what's the least amount of harm and then the

548
00:34:25,749 --> 00:34:29,391
most amount of harm that we see. And so we get that knowledge

549
00:34:29,431 --> 00:34:32,914
in there. But for the audience member who's listening to this and

550
00:34:32,974 --> 00:34:36,357
just being like, OK, so now I'm educated on

551
00:34:36,417 --> 00:34:39,880
how this all works. I'm educated on the different things that can play

552
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:44,744
a role in whether this goes forward or it doesn't go forward. What

553
00:34:44,784 --> 00:34:48,026
do you suggest that people do with this

554
00:34:49,828 --> 00:34:53,631
So it's tricky because it's not the kind of thing where

555
00:34:53,671 --> 00:34:56,908
you can write your congressman. Well, especially not

556
00:34:56,928 --> 00:35:00,410
because we're not part of UNCLOS, so our congressmen are useless. More

557
00:35:00,510 --> 00:35:05,232
useless than usual. If

558
00:35:05,312 --> 00:35:08,914
you are a citizen of a country that is a signatory to UNCLOS, which...

559
00:35:09,932 --> 00:35:13,233
Honestly, most of your listeners probably aren't, because I'm guessing you have a pretty big

560
00:35:16,893 --> 00:35:20,314
But, you know, if you are the citizen of a country that is a signatory to

561
00:35:20,354 --> 00:35:24,375
UNCLOS, you write your representatives, however

562
00:35:24,395 --> 00:35:27,596
you're represented, if it's an MP or a parliamentarian or

563
00:35:27,616 --> 00:35:31,316
a congressman or, you know, an alderman or whatever, you write whoever represents

564
00:35:31,917 --> 00:35:35,245
you in the highest level of government. and urge

565
00:35:35,325 --> 00:35:39,507
them to adopt the position that either

566
00:35:39,527 --> 00:35:42,769
you do or do not want to support deep sea mining. Because ultimately, this

567
00:35:42,809 --> 00:35:46,030
is international negotiation. It's happening at the level of

568
00:35:46,090 --> 00:35:49,832
a State Department. And so whatever is your

569
00:35:50,532 --> 00:35:53,714
most direct line to the State Department of your country, which

570
00:35:53,754 --> 00:35:57,255
is usually through your elected representative, if

571
00:35:57,275 --> 00:36:00,595
you're in the U.S., like the U.S. does go to the ISA and

572
00:36:00,615 --> 00:36:03,697
that we do have representatives that intervene there that we can't vote on

573
00:36:03,777 --> 00:36:07,300
ISA issues, you can write directly to the US State Department and be like, hey,

574
00:36:07,620 --> 00:36:10,942
I'm worried about this. Right. But in terms

575
00:36:11,002 --> 00:36:15,005
of like direct action, it's a trickier one because it's not like

576
00:36:16,326 --> 00:36:19,608
you can oppose it in national waters. Yeah. If your issue

577
00:36:19,628 --> 00:36:22,891
is primarily with deep sea mining and national waters, which very

578
00:36:22,951 --> 00:36:26,213
few countries are looking at deep sea mining in their own waters. Japan is

579
00:36:26,253 --> 00:36:30,105
doing a little bit of work on that. China is doing development

580
00:36:30,226 --> 00:36:34,188
on that, but mostly to test technology for high seas work. India

581
00:36:34,248 --> 00:36:37,510
is kind of in the same boat. They have nodule fields

582
00:36:37,710 --> 00:36:40,953
in their territorial waters. They do a little bit of work there,

583
00:36:40,993 --> 00:36:44,394
but they're not In those cases, it's less about

584
00:36:44,414 --> 00:36:48,016
the commercialization and more about testing of technology before

585
00:36:48,056 --> 00:36:51,798
they go out into the high seas. New Zealand is a very active

586
00:36:52,818 --> 00:36:55,960
back and forth in their parliament over deep sea mining and some of

587
00:36:55,980 --> 00:37:00,523
the shallower water mining projects like Iron Ridge Sands. So

588
00:37:00,603 --> 00:37:04,965
for national waters, it is, I mean, in all cases, it's right your representatives. You

589
00:37:05,365 --> 00:37:08,807
know, there's not like, it's a small industry, it's a small world. So

590
00:37:08,947 --> 00:37:14,044
it's not hard to keep track of who's trying to do deep sea mining. It

591
00:37:14,464 --> 00:37:18,725
is hard to get involved unless you're a subject matter expert. If you're a scientist, if

592
00:37:18,765 --> 00:37:22,166
you're a practicing marine scientist and you're opposed to deep sea mining,

593
00:37:22,566 --> 00:37:25,948
there is a scientist sign-on letter for support of

594
00:37:25,988 --> 00:37:29,289
a moratorium that they are collecting signatures for.

595
00:37:29,829 --> 00:37:34,691
I think it's hosted by the IUCN right now, or possibly the Worldwide

596
00:37:34,731 --> 00:37:38,072
Fund for Nature. Can't remember who's currently hosting it, but if you Google

597
00:37:38,532 --> 00:37:42,253
scientist sign-on letter. I'll put the link in the show notes, yeah. So

598
00:37:42,393 --> 00:37:45,794
there are things to do if you are a practicing scientist that carry

599
00:37:47,215 --> 00:37:51,776
Okay. Now, one more question about

600
00:37:51,816 --> 00:37:55,417
what people can do. So is it bad to

601
00:37:55,477 --> 00:37:58,638
have an EV right now? Just knowing, you know, like from

602
00:37:58,678 --> 00:38:02,419
an ethical standpoint, you know, we look at how cobalt

603
00:38:02,459 --> 00:38:06,100
is mined now, as you mentioned, in the Democratic Republic

604
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,634
of Congo. But but plus with the possibility of

605
00:38:09,714 --> 00:38:12,916
deep sea mining, if you are an environmentalist, or

606
00:38:12,956 --> 00:38:16,457
you want to do something good for the environment, and you are buying a car, is

607
00:38:16,577 --> 00:38:19,859
it bad to have an EV? Is it bad to have

608
00:38:19,879 --> 00:38:23,160
a hybrid vehicle? I mean, it's good for the environment. We know that. But

609
00:38:23,181 --> 00:38:26,523
then there's also the fact of what goes into it. And

610
00:38:26,683 --> 00:38:29,765
this is an ethical point. I guess it's more of your opinion kind of

611
00:38:29,805 --> 00:38:33,067
piece. But what would you say for people who are

612
00:38:33,087 --> 00:38:36,209
like, well, why would you get an EV with all this

613
00:38:37,530 --> 00:38:41,472
So no, absolutely not. There is no projection that

614
00:38:41,512 --> 00:38:45,214
has EVs coming out worse than a new gas car. If

615
00:38:45,254 --> 00:38:49,177
you are shopping for a new car or a new used car, EVs

616
00:38:49,318 --> 00:38:52,780
are always going to be, hands down, a better choice for the environment. The

617
00:38:52,821 --> 00:38:56,183
best choice for a car is always the car you currently have. Drive

618
00:38:56,223 --> 00:38:59,366
it till it dies, make it last as long as possible, and then replace it

619
00:38:59,386 --> 00:39:02,689
with the most energy efficient car you can. My family

620
00:39:02,709 --> 00:39:05,971
has had to do that twice in the last two years. We've had two cars

621
00:39:06,011 --> 00:39:09,454
totaled. I drove mine until it died. My wife drove hers until

622
00:39:09,494 --> 00:39:13,197
it died. We got hundreds of thousands of miles out of both of them. And

623
00:39:13,237 --> 00:39:16,459
now we have two EVs. So we went the EV

624
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,962
route, and we went with a Hyundai Kona,

625
00:39:20,122 --> 00:39:23,764
and we went with a Ford Escape plug-in hybrid. So

626
00:39:24,425 --> 00:39:27,727
depending on your personal politics and other motivations, there are certain

627
00:39:27,767 --> 00:39:31,447
car companies you may want to avoid. Um, and

628
00:39:31,647 --> 00:39:34,809
I, you know, I have a, I have a personal beef with Tesla that is not related to

629
00:39:34,829 --> 00:39:38,271
politics, but it's related to how they do battery storage and how they do, um,

630
00:39:39,312 --> 00:39:42,413
uh, access to, um, uh, the hardware that

631
00:39:42,433 --> 00:39:45,775
you've already bought. So if you buy like a base level model Y,

632
00:39:46,096 --> 00:39:49,257
there's more battery capacity in that model Y than you're allowed to use.

633
00:39:49,698 --> 00:39:52,900
And you have to pay Tesla for permission to use

634
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,222
an extended range, but that, that battery, capacity is

635
00:39:56,242 --> 00:39:59,604
already built into your vehicle, which means you are driving around with

636
00:39:59,784 --> 00:40:02,926
a third of an electric vehicle's worth of cobalt and

637
00:40:02,966 --> 00:40:06,028
nickel that is not being used. So in

638
00:40:06,068 --> 00:40:09,210
that case, and that's changing too because Tesla has switched its

639
00:40:09,250 --> 00:40:13,313
battery chemistries to lithium iron phosphate for those vehicles. So

640
00:40:13,553 --> 00:40:17,756
that was more of an issue four years ago than it is today. So

641
00:40:17,776 --> 00:40:20,998
there are, if you really wanted to get into the nitty gritty and look at

642
00:40:21,038 --> 00:40:24,380
battery chemistries and compare battery chemistries, and OK,

643
00:40:25,261 --> 00:40:28,822
you want to avoid the potential for creating demand

644
00:40:28,842 --> 00:40:32,224
for deep sea mining. There's no battery on the market right now that uses metals from

645
00:40:32,244 --> 00:40:35,885
the deep sea. But if

646
00:40:35,905 --> 00:40:39,127
you want to avoid creating that demand, you can look for batteries that use lithium iron

647
00:40:39,167 --> 00:40:42,988
phosphate rather than lithium polymer

648
00:40:43,028 --> 00:40:46,550
or nickel-based or cobalt-based batteries. So

649
00:40:46,570 --> 00:40:50,232
you can do that. But at the end of the day, The

650
00:40:50,252 --> 00:40:53,453
car you have, drive it until it can't be a reliable car

651
00:40:53,493 --> 00:40:56,754
anymore and replace it with a used car that is

652
00:40:56,874 --> 00:41:01,216
as efficient as possible is almost always going to be the best choice. Electric

653
00:41:01,256 --> 00:41:04,797
vehicles, especially the used electric vehicle market is great right

654
00:41:04,857 --> 00:41:08,238
now. This is a fantastic moment in time to get a used EV.

655
00:41:09,299 --> 00:41:12,840
A used EV is going to be hands down always the most environmentally

656
00:41:20,543 --> 00:41:23,885
Yeah, true, true. Awesome. Is there anything, I

657
00:41:23,925 --> 00:41:28,187
know a lot happened last year, is there anything that we missed talking

658
00:41:28,367 --> 00:41:31,528
We have barely scratched the surface. Oh my gosh! I

659
00:41:31,568 --> 00:41:34,750
have not even talked about the usurping of the Secretary General of

660
00:41:34,770 --> 00:41:38,071
the International Space Agency. Yes, yes, let's talk about that, let's talk about that.

661
00:41:38,452 --> 00:41:42,233
So I think this is important because I think this is the biggest a

662
00:41:42,514 --> 00:41:45,936
policy change to happen in the ISA in the last eight years.

663
00:41:46,937 --> 00:41:51,240
So Michael Lodge was the previous Secretary General of the ISA. He

664
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:57,084
took over in 2016. And he

665
00:41:57,204 --> 00:42:00,826
was very pro-mining. He

666
00:42:00,966 --> 00:42:04,369
really saw it as his mission to get the mining regulations done.

667
00:42:05,249 --> 00:42:09,435
and to get deep sea mining started under his watch. It

668
00:42:09,455 --> 00:42:13,041
seemed like he wanted that to be his legacy, which of course, if you're the Secretary General

669
00:42:13,061 --> 00:42:16,305
of the ISA who's tasked with creating a deep sea mining industry,

670
00:42:16,325 --> 00:42:20,249
of course that's the kind of legacy you want to create. His

671
00:42:20,289 --> 00:42:23,853
leadership was mired in a couple of scandals, which – all

672
00:42:23,873 --> 00:42:28,016
of which are like allegedly at this point, and

673
00:42:28,116 --> 00:42:31,980
the new secretary general has said that there will be investigations. We'll

674
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,283
see how far that goes. There were accusations that he was

675
00:42:35,363 --> 00:42:39,387
cozying up with specific mining companies. and

676
00:42:39,447 --> 00:42:43,830
preferentially favoring them. There were accusations that he was passing privileged

677
00:42:43,870 --> 00:42:47,994
information on to third parties in those mining companies. There

678
00:42:48,014 --> 00:42:51,297
was accusations during the last election that he was attempting to

679
00:42:51,337 --> 00:42:54,800
bribe his opponent by offering her a job within

680
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,703
the ISA if she would drop out of the election. And there

681
00:42:58,743 --> 00:43:02,587
were overall a lot of moments of dissatisfaction with

682
00:43:02,627 --> 00:43:06,904
his leadership, I think is probably the most diplomatic way to say it. His

683
00:43:06,944 --> 00:43:10,825
handling of the COVID pandemic wasn't particularly inspired.

684
00:43:12,666 --> 00:43:16,127
He actually, you know, I was at the very last in-person ISA

685
00:43:16,167 --> 00:43:19,608
meeting before the pandemic shut everything down. And

686
00:43:19,688 --> 00:43:23,189
the delegation for, this was February of 2020. The delegation

687
00:43:23,229 --> 00:43:27,091
from China had a long intervention where they basically said, this

688
00:43:27,151 --> 00:43:31,052
is going to be bad. We need to put provisions in place to have remote meetings. And

689
00:43:31,072 --> 00:43:34,233
the secretary general said, we are not equipped to have remote meetings and we will not do

690
00:43:43,346 --> 00:43:46,688
No, it was happening. The first cases were out. They knew. It

691
00:43:46,709 --> 00:43:49,891
was blowing up in Wuhan. They were like, this is bad. The first

692
00:43:49,911 --> 00:43:53,733
cases in Italy had hit, so they knew. And

693
00:43:53,773 --> 00:43:57,135
so because of that, they basically shut down negotiations for two years,

694
00:43:57,395 --> 00:44:00,477
obviously. And they put some provisions in place to

695
00:44:00,537 --> 00:44:03,718
have like sort of remote, but not really kind

696
00:44:03,758 --> 00:44:06,880
of sustaining meetings. But like, you know,

697
00:44:06,900 --> 00:44:10,482
I think generally speaking, a lot of delegations were dissatisfied with

698
00:44:10,522 --> 00:44:14,164
his leadership. And so there was a vote on the new secretary general

699
00:44:15,445 --> 00:44:20,955
at the last ISA meeting of 2024. Everyone

700
00:44:20,975 --> 00:44:24,277
thought it was going to kind of be a nail-biter and it was going to come down to like the

701
00:44:24,317 --> 00:44:28,040
pro-moratorium countries versus the pro-mining countries. But

702
00:44:28,060 --> 00:44:31,522
it actually ended up being a blowout and Secretary General Lodge

703
00:44:32,643 --> 00:44:36,665
was voted out of office and Secretary General Letitia Carvalho

704
00:44:36,725 --> 00:44:40,468
was voted into office. Secretary General Carvalho is

705
00:44:41,368 --> 00:44:44,410
going to be the first oceanographer to leave the ISA. She's a

706
00:44:44,450 --> 00:44:47,773
scientist. She worked for the

707
00:44:47,813 --> 00:44:51,477
UN Environmental Program, so she's a very seasoned administrator

708
00:44:51,517 --> 00:44:54,700
with these kinds of programs. And she's the first woman and

709
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,064
the first Latin American to lead the ISA. So it's a very – MR

710
00:44:58,084 --> 00:45:01,347
PALLADINO She's from Brazil? MR KIRBY She's from Brazil, yes. So

711
00:45:01,387 --> 00:45:05,651
it is a very significant change in leadership that will really

712
00:45:05,791 --> 00:45:10,175
shape how the next four years of ISA negotiations go. I

713
00:45:10,215 --> 00:45:14,279
don't know how they will be reshaped yet because she's

714
00:45:19,043 --> 00:45:22,386
Started at the beginning of January. So we will see at the first ISA

715
00:45:22,426 --> 00:45:25,548
meeting what kind of changes we can expect to see.

716
00:45:26,249 --> 00:45:30,173
There seems to be, because she's an oceanographer and her experience with

717
00:45:30,994 --> 00:45:34,877
UNEP, there seems to be a bit more of a positive

718
00:45:34,917 --> 00:45:39,542
outlook when it comes to, as you mentioned before, of taking

719
00:45:39,602 --> 00:45:43,365
advantage of looking at policy before this

720
00:45:43,666 --> 00:45:47,439
extraction happens. and being proud

721
00:45:47,459 --> 00:45:51,282
of putting together a very comprehensive strategy and

722
00:45:51,722 --> 00:45:55,345
policy before we go out, especially because she's

723
00:45:55,385 --> 00:45:59,029
a science-based leader. Is that a

724
00:45:59,149 --> 00:46:02,271
fair assessment of what we're looking at? Do you feel the

725
00:46:03,812 --> 00:46:07,833
I think it's fair to say that she has a much better

726
00:46:07,853 --> 00:46:11,854
grasp on what the science is than the outgoing secretary-general. I

727
00:46:11,914 --> 00:46:15,375
think she is – and he was a private sector lawyer,

728
00:46:15,515 --> 00:46:18,815
so he had a very different skill set. She is a

729
00:46:18,995 --> 00:46:22,336
seasoned administrator with the UN, so I think there is

730
00:46:22,376 --> 00:46:26,457
going to be a much higher focus on science. the

731
00:46:26,537 --> 00:46:29,859
norms and protocols of UN programs that

732
00:46:30,539 --> 00:46:34,241
some people felt was lacking under the last leadership. I

733
00:46:34,261 --> 00:46:37,863
don't think she's a pro-moratorium person. I don't think she's, like, trying

734
00:46:37,883 --> 00:46:41,485
to shut down deep-sea mining. I know some people are like, oh, yay, the environmentalists

735
00:46:41,605 --> 00:46:45,407
won. I think she is going

736
00:46:45,447 --> 00:46:49,269
to be the kind of secretary general where we're going to see the best possible mining

737
00:46:49,329 --> 00:46:52,811
code get codified under her watch. And a

738
00:46:52,851 --> 00:46:56,152
lot of people won't be happy with the best possible mining code because they didn't want any

739
00:46:56,192 --> 00:46:59,334
mining code at all. But the best possible mining code is a heck of

740
00:46:59,354 --> 00:47:02,635
a lot better than what was coming out under the

741
00:47:04,456 --> 00:47:07,938
How many times have you and I and other scientists have looked

742
00:47:08,018 --> 00:47:11,499
at previous extractive activities or other extractive

743
00:47:11,539 --> 00:47:14,667
activities and be like, oh, if we only… you know, had these types of

744
00:47:14,767 --> 00:47:18,088
regulations before it started, then it would have been

745
00:47:18,148 --> 00:47:22,209
– the precedent would have been there and we could fine-tune

746
00:47:22,989 --> 00:47:26,150
So this is … Here's something wild. Here's something that we've never

747
00:47:26,190 --> 00:47:29,831
seen before with the new industry. There's an environmental fund

748
00:47:36,378 --> 00:47:39,581
Well, the companies, and so, you know, it's weird because there's

749
00:47:39,601 --> 00:47:43,543
private companies that deep sea mine, there's also countries. Ah, gotcha. And

750
00:47:43,563 --> 00:47:46,706
so they're both kind of working in tandem. And also the ISA gets to have its own

751
00:47:46,746 --> 00:47:50,508
mining company too, which is a whole other story. Yeah, that's

752
00:47:50,568 --> 00:47:53,670
interesting. Okay. So there's a lot of entities that are

753
00:47:53,690 --> 00:47:57,053
doing the mining, but if there's a pre-funded environmental fund,

754
00:47:57,493 --> 00:48:01,996
that means when accidents happen, there's already money available for remediation. And

755
00:48:02,016 --> 00:48:05,879
that's not something we've really seen before at this scale ever. So

756
00:48:05,919 --> 00:48:09,542
just simple things like that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

757
00:48:09,702 --> 00:48:13,605
it's penalize them after the fact, not pre-fund. So

758
00:48:13,645 --> 00:48:17,007
those are the kinds of things that I think they lead

759
00:48:17,067 --> 00:48:20,330
to a better – and I'm not like – I'm not

760
00:48:20,370 --> 00:48:23,692
a super big industry naysayer and I'm also not super rah, rah,

761
00:48:23,712 --> 00:48:28,617
rah, let's go mine. acknowledge

762
00:48:28,757 --> 00:48:32,518
begrudgingly that there may need to be a path forward that involves the

763
00:48:32,538 --> 00:48:35,779
deep ocean if battery chemistries don't catch up and

764
00:48:36,339 --> 00:48:40,199
if we do genuinely need these metals. And

765
00:48:40,259 --> 00:48:43,680
like, let's do the best thing we can. Yeah,

766
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,941
if we can make the regulations as good as possible. And if you

767
00:48:46,981 --> 00:48:50,221
know the negotiation to get those regulations as good as possible takes so long,

768
00:48:50,261 --> 00:48:53,847
the battery technology catches up. Great. Yeah.

769
00:49:01,529 --> 00:49:04,849
I love this. So this was huge. We'll

770
00:49:04,869 --> 00:49:08,090
stop the interview here. I'd like to invite you back for a part

771
00:49:08,150 --> 00:49:11,571
two, because there's more information that we're going to be talking about

772
00:49:11,651 --> 00:49:15,012
with deep sea mining. And I would like to invite you back, to

773
00:49:15,052 --> 00:49:18,352
be honest, Andrew, on a regular basis. because there's so much going on

774
00:49:18,372 --> 00:49:22,033
in the world right now, especially in the US, with ocean policy

775
00:49:22,353 --> 00:49:26,834
that we're going to be covering at least over the next four years and

776
00:49:26,874 --> 00:49:30,255
seeing what's happened. And of course, we did an episode previous

777
00:49:30,295 --> 00:49:33,995
to this on your article regarding all the different policies

778
00:49:34,015 --> 00:49:37,836
that were changed in President Trump's first day after

779
00:49:37,876 --> 00:49:41,157
the inauguration. So we're going to be discussing a lot of that over this

780
00:49:41,177 --> 00:49:44,297
time and the effect that it'll have Not only on the deep sea, but

781
00:49:44,337 --> 00:49:47,618
just on the ocean in general and on people as well. And we'll have a number

782
00:49:47,638 --> 00:49:50,719
of different experts that come in to discuss it, but we would love for you to

783
00:49:50,759 --> 00:49:54,160
come back and help us out to detangle everything. So that'd

784
00:49:54,180 --> 00:49:57,862
be really great. So thank you so much for coming on this time. Appreciate it. You're

785
00:49:57,902 --> 00:50:01,590
very welcome and thank you for having me. Thank you, Andrew, for joining me on today's episode

786
00:50:01,810 --> 00:50:05,073
of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. So much stuff happened, we

787
00:50:05,093 --> 00:50:08,196
didn't even get to cover, we're just scratching the surface. So we're gonna have

788
00:50:08,236 --> 00:50:11,559
him back on to get another update on what happened in 2024 and

789
00:50:11,599 --> 00:50:15,122
what continues to happen as we go along. New leadership, which

790
00:50:15,182 --> 00:50:18,365
is great to see, only 22 days in, so we're gonna see what

791
00:50:18,405 --> 00:50:22,028
happens having an oceanographer. as a leader uh and

792
00:50:22,188 --> 00:50:25,409
and to see like what's going to happen are we going to take advantage of this and

793
00:50:25,449 --> 00:50:28,551
say hey we can come up with the best type of uh

794
00:50:28,671 --> 00:50:32,053
of policies the best type of regulations before we start this

795
00:50:32,113 --> 00:50:35,354
extractive process if we're going to start it and if we're going to see if it's even

796
00:50:35,434 --> 00:50:38,556
worth it with the advancement of batteries the way it

797
00:50:38,616 --> 00:50:41,677
goes so much is happening so quickly we're going to keep you up

798
00:50:41,717 --> 00:50:45,120
to date in the future But until then, if you have any questions or comments

799
00:50:45,260 --> 00:50:48,402
about the episode, you have questions for Andrew that maybe the next

800
00:50:48,422 --> 00:50:51,604
time he's on, he can answer, I can ask him, please let me know.

801
00:50:51,664 --> 00:50:55,207
Just hit me up on Instagram at HowToProtectTheOcean. And

802
00:50:55,227 --> 00:50:58,889
if you have a question or comment and you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, just

803
00:50:59,150 --> 00:51:02,432
put your question and comment in the comment section

804
00:51:02,472 --> 00:51:06,095
below. And of course, don't forget to subscribe and hit that notification

805
00:51:06,135 --> 00:51:09,317
bell if you haven't already to get all of our episodes. We put out

806
00:51:09,457 --> 00:51:13,261
Monday, Wednesday, and Friday every week. Enjoy. This

807
00:51:13,301 --> 00:51:16,466
is the end of this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'm your host Andrew Loon. Thank

808
00:51:16,486 --> 00:51:20,072
you very much for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Have