How D and D Can Help with Environmental Education Through Immersive Learning

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How do we learn about science?

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How do we learn about our natural world,

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our planet, our environment?

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Environmental literacy is at,

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I feel like it's at an all time low.

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It is something that you

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see on political posts,

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you see on Facebook,

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you see on Instagram,

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anytime you put up

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anything that has to do

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with the environment, you

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see a lot of ignorant comments

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and comments that people just don't know

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about the

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environment, they don't know how

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the natural environment works.

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And education is really important.

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We're gonna talk about

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that on today's episode

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of tools that we can use.

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In this case, Dungeons and Dragons games,

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where people can learn,

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it's almost like that immersive

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experiential learning

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of the natural world.

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Dr. Andrew Thaler joins us again today,

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one of my favorite guests, because he

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comes back all the time

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with all these great

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stories and these great projects,

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is here today to talk about his foray

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into the educational aspect

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of Dungeons and Dragons for

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teachers and for students,

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you know, around the

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US, around the world,

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and that people can use all the time.

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He's an experienced

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Dungeons and Dragons master.

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I believe this is what it's called.

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I'm not familiar with the game.

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On today's episode, we have a special,

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special episode for you today.

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We are going to be talking

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about Dungeons and Dragons.

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You're probably like, Andrew, why are we

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talking about Dungeons and

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Dragons on an ocean podcast?

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Well, we got to talk about it because

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we've got to learn ways

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and tools to get not only

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children but different generations in on

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learning about the environment, beefing

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up our environmental

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literacy around the world.

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And Dungeons and Dragons is a game that

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is played by hundreds of

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millions of people around

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the world to be able to tell stories as a

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community and to

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understand what adventures

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are like in storytelling by adaptation,

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by changing it up and by improvisation.

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Right?

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And it's a very fun way of doing it.

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I've tried to play it once.

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We talk a little bit about what happened

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when I tried to play it.

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It was definitely out of my comfort zone,

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did in front of a crowd, but it's, I have

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a such a respect for the game and such

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respect for the people who

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come up with these stories

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and are able to put this all together for

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people, especially Andrew, who's worked

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on this for over a year to be able to

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provide educational tools around the

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games and how students and teachers can

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play these games and really understand in

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the environment without

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learning about the environment.

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It's a great way and a

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great tool to discuss it.

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And I can't wait for

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Andrew to tell you all about it.

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So here's the interview with Dr.

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Andrew Taylor talking about Dungeons and

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Dragons for forest ecology.

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Enjoy.

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And I'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Andrew.

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Welcome back to another great episode of

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the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Are you ready to talk

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about Dungeons and Dragons?

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Absolutely, I am.

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Right.

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Now, this is going to be a different

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episode than what we normally do, but

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it's definitely pertinent to I feel like

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what's going on in society today.

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We are talking about environmental

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education in general.

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We're going to be going away a little bit

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from the ocean because the subject matter

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of the Dungeons and

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Dragons is about forests.

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Right.

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And so we're going to be

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talking all about that.

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But the importance of this as a tool to

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get people interested in learning about

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the environment and learning about just

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how nature works and being able to

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conjure up some stories in a very fast

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paced environment and be able to say,

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hey, this is a lot of fun.

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But I'm also learning and

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I get into it to nature.

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So I can't wait to do that.

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Andrew, you've been on the podcast a

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number of times, but I get a new

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listeners and listen, new listeners.

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So why don't you just remind the people

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of who you are and what you do?

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Sure thing.

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So I am Dr. Andrew Thaler.

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I am a deep sea ecologist, a conservation

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technologist and an ocean educator.

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I do a lot of work on deep sea mining.

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I do a lot of work on developing

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oceanographic instruments.

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I do a bunch of policy work.

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I yell at mining companies.

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I do all those fun things.

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But today I want to

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take you on an adventure.

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And that adventure goes all

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the way back to New Year's 2023.

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And what was amazing about New Year's

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2023 is that the actual holiday fell in

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such a way that we had

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like a five day weekend.

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And so I being the insane person that I

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am decided to call up a bunch of my

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friends and say, hey, we had

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this long five day weekend.

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It's cold. It's it's

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snowy. It's dark out.

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I live in a log cabin with a giant

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vaulted ceiling that looks

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like a Viking long house.

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Why don't we all get together and just

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spend five days

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playing Dungeons and Dragons?

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That sounds kind of cool.

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It was a lot of fun. And so I designed a

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campaign just for just for

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that that New Year's holiday.

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And because I can't escape being an

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educator, the campaign I designed was

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built around the idea of for succession.

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So as my players explored this

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wilderness, they were noticing changes in

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the forest and the changes in the forest

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were dictating where the plot progressed

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and where the adventure went.

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And so as they were and obviously all my

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friends are our

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scientists of various stripes.

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So as they're making observations about

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the forest, these adventures growing

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around them about what caused these

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changes and why and how and

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what they can do about it.

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And what are all the different aspects

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that are shaping this landscape?

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So there is a there's an endangered

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species that is missing from the forest.

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There is a dam that was built that is

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causing a swamp to retreat.

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There are all of these environmental

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factors that are kind of

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reshaping the landscape.

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And at the end of the adventure, I'll try

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not to give too much away right off the

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bat in case anyone

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wants to actually play it.

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But at the end of the adventure, you

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know, we sat down and they said, hey, you

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know, this would actually make a really

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good classroom exercise.

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This could be, you know, with a little

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bit of work like teachers could use this

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to teach things about succession and

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forest ecology and especially a fire

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dominated ecosystems.

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So over the next year, this has kind of

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been a passion project of mine to take

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the adventure is called The

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Last Hunt for the Jabberwalk.

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OK, it is it is set in the Feywild, which

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is kind of this like whimsical fairy

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world within Dungeons and Dragons that is

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centered on puns and kind of joyfully

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whimsical tricksy kinds of things.

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OK, not super serious, you know, not like

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big high fantasy, more

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like ridiculous whimsy.

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So there's there's a colony of rabbits

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and they're all talking in rabbit puns

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and there's there's a city of frogs who

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are worshiping a giant frog that turns

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out not to actually be a deity, but just

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a really big frog that keeps eating them.

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So things like that. Yeah. But what I did

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is I took this adventure.

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I kind of distilled it down to the core

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lessons we wanted to teach.

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We wanted to teach about how fire

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dominated forest ecosystems work.

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We want to teach about the consequences

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of building dams and what that means for

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environment and then the consequences of

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tearing a dam down and what that would

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mean for an environment and for

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communities that live around those dams.

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We want to talk about invasive species.

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And we want to talk about like building

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resilient communities in the face of

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changing ecosystems, changing

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environments, changing climates.

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And so, you know, after this first dry

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run, I kind of spent a year rebuilding

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the adventure from the ground ground up

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around these kinds of educational themes

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and in the process also developing lesson

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plans to go along with them.

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So the idea behind and things like. Yeah.

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And so the idea behind the last time for

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the Jabberwock is that a teacher could

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pick this up and it's like a 12 hour to

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20 hour campaign, depending

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on how they want to run it.

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And they can build it around an

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environmental education course and they

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can run their students through the

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adventure and they can have their

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students discover the ecological

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processes that are shaping this forest in

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a way that you can't do if

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you're just doing a lecture.

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So there's there's a mystery and there's

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there's puzzles to be solved and there's

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like access to histories that they have

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to uncover and figure out why things have

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changed and how they've changed.

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And they all relate back

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to real world examples.

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And then it also ends in like kind of an

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ecological debate about what are we going

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to do to fix things?

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It's a fire dominated ecosystem and the

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fire is driven by a keystone species

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that's no longer there.

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And as they bring it's called last hunt

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for the Jabberwock. So you can kind of

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figure that one out if they bring the

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keystone species back, the

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forest begins to recover.

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But then there's a new predator and you

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know, the communities that are living in

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the forest now have to

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deal with the predator.

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There's a dam and they can debate whether

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or not they need to tear

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the dam down or let it stay.

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01:09:15,291 --> 01:09:17,875
And that has implications for the animals

280
01:09:17,875 --> 01:09:19,125
that live upstream and the animals that

281
01:09:19,125 --> 01:09:20,000
live downstream and the

282
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:21,083
communities built around it.

283
01:09:21,166 --> 01:09:23,750
And so you really get an opportunity to

284
01:09:23,750 --> 01:09:26,166
talk about these kind of big

285
01:09:26,166 --> 01:09:27,750
environmental questions that really

286
01:09:27,750 --> 01:09:30,458
dictate how we think about making

287
01:09:30,458 --> 01:09:32,333
resilient communities in the face of

288
01:09:32,333 --> 01:09:33,208
environmental change.

289
01:09:33,833 --> 01:09:36,708
And because it's couched in D&D because

290
01:09:36,708 --> 01:09:38,291
it's couched in this kind of whimsical

291
01:09:38,291 --> 01:09:41,375
forest world that's not directly related

292
01:09:41,375 --> 01:09:42,791
to the real world, you can have those

293
01:09:42,791 --> 01:09:45,291
conversations without kind of bringing up

294
01:09:45,291 --> 01:09:47,583
a lot of the political

295
01:09:47,583 --> 01:09:49,125
baggage that comes along with that.

296
01:09:49,166 --> 01:09:51,458
Without bringing up a lot of like the

297
01:09:51,458 --> 01:09:53,416
real world emotions so you can have those

298
01:09:53,416 --> 01:09:56,833
talks and you can you can look at the

299
01:09:56,833 --> 01:09:58,666
world without having to think about the

300
01:09:58,666 --> 01:10:00,333
real world at the same time.

301
01:10:00,583 --> 01:10:01,708
And then you can see the outcome. You can

302
01:10:01,708 --> 01:10:03,583
see the consequences. So in the game,

303
01:10:03,583 --> 01:10:04,916
they'll do those things. They'll make

304
01:10:04,916 --> 01:10:06,750
those decisions and then they'll see how

305
01:10:06,750 --> 01:10:08,791
those decisions reshape things and

306
01:10:08,791 --> 01:10:09,625
they'll get to actually

307
01:10:09,625 --> 01:10:11,541
experience what those changes mean.

308
01:10:12,250 --> 01:10:12,666
Right.

309
01:10:13,958 --> 01:10:17,666
So it took me about a year to spin this

310
01:10:17,666 --> 01:10:19,333
up into something that I felt was a

311
01:10:19,333 --> 01:10:21,041
functional thing for educators to use. We

312
01:10:21,041 --> 01:10:22,708
did a lot of test runs with with local

313
01:10:22,708 --> 01:10:24,250
teachers with some

314
01:10:24,250 --> 01:10:25,791
local D&D groups as well.

315
01:10:26,666 --> 01:10:28,625
And at the end of December of this of

316
01:10:28,625 --> 01:10:32,125
last year, we published it on it's called

317
01:10:32,125 --> 01:10:33,916
Dungeons Masters Guild. It's kind of like

318
01:10:33,916 --> 01:10:35,458
a clearinghouse for D&D adventures.

319
01:10:36,875 --> 01:10:38,583
It's licensed with Wizards of the Coast.

320
01:10:38,833 --> 01:10:40,291
So it's all like official D&D stuff,

321
01:10:40,291 --> 01:10:41,166
which is really, really fun.

322
01:10:42,166 --> 01:10:45,750
And we've made it available for teachers

323
01:10:45,750 --> 01:10:47,458
to download and try on

324
01:10:47,458 --> 01:10:49,000
their own and test things out.

325
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:51,916
This is phenomenal. I love this. I love

326
01:10:51,916 --> 01:10:54,000
this. And I know, you know, D&D has

327
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:56,583
become very popular with a lot of a lot

328
01:10:56,583 --> 01:10:57,958
of different groups now.

329
01:10:59,875 --> 01:11:01,875
I wanted you to talk about D&D a little

330
01:11:01,875 --> 01:11:05,000
bit because and just sort of what it is

331
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:06,500
for the people who don't know because

332
01:11:06,500 --> 01:11:08,583
like when I was a kid in the

333
01:11:08,583 --> 01:11:10,833
80s, I grew up like Catholic.

334
01:11:11,708 --> 01:11:13,875
We weren't allowed to play D&D. It was

335
01:11:13,875 --> 01:11:15,833
about demons and dragons. And that was

336
01:11:15,833 --> 01:11:19,041
that was a faux pas in my household. Like

337
01:11:19,041 --> 01:11:20,041
we were not allowed.

338
01:11:20,041 --> 01:11:22,041
It was like that was like a Ouija board.

339
01:11:22,041 --> 01:11:23,666
You weren't allowed to mess with the

340
01:11:23,666 --> 01:11:25,250
Ouija board. Of course we did. But that

341
01:11:25,250 --> 01:11:25,916
you know, when I was

342
01:11:25,916 --> 01:11:27,000
a teenager and stuff.

343
01:11:27,541 --> 01:11:29,458
But that's how I think they're my friend.

344
01:11:29,458 --> 01:11:32,166
I know. But that's you know, sort of

345
01:11:32,166 --> 01:11:34,708
that's what what like a lot of I feel

346
01:11:34,708 --> 01:11:36,708
like a lot of people went through when

347
01:11:36,708 --> 01:11:38,208
when they were kids and like parents just

348
01:11:38,208 --> 01:11:40,125
didn't understand what this D&D is.

349
01:11:40,166 --> 01:11:43,083
You know, and as I grew up and started to

350
01:11:43,083 --> 01:11:44,625
hear more about it more and more and more

351
01:11:44,625 --> 01:11:46,291
people playing it, there was a little bit

352
01:11:46,291 --> 01:11:48,500
of a dry one that I got to take part that

353
01:11:48,500 --> 01:11:51,125
launched a podcast for for oceans called

354
01:11:51,125 --> 01:11:53,250
do goings and see dragons.

355
01:11:53,250 --> 01:11:56,958
And a great a great a great podcast has

356
01:11:56,958 --> 01:11:58,083
been running. What I think he said, like

357
01:11:58,083 --> 01:12:00,375
between 600 and 700 episodes. It's a lot

358
01:12:00,375 --> 01:12:02,125
of it has been running since 2018.

359
01:12:02,166 --> 01:12:05,666
Yeah, so yeah, once a week. And I think

360
01:12:05,666 --> 01:12:09,625
it's phenomenal. And we know, you know,

361
01:12:09,625 --> 01:12:12,458
people use it as an educational tool. But

362
01:12:12,458 --> 01:12:13,750
can you just talk about what, like, just

363
01:12:13,750 --> 01:12:15,000
for the audience who aren't familiar with

364
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:18,541
it, what D&D is and how it's really grown

365
01:12:18,541 --> 01:12:20,125
over the last like few decades.

366
01:12:20,166 --> 01:12:23,291
So at its core, D&D is really two things.

367
01:12:23,875 --> 01:12:25,958
One is it's a set of rules. And it's a

368
01:12:25,958 --> 01:12:28,416
set of rules that allows you to get a

369
01:12:28,416 --> 01:12:30,041
group together and participate in

370
01:12:30,041 --> 01:12:33,541
collaborative storytelling, in which you

371
01:12:33,541 --> 01:12:35,708
can introduce random elements into that

372
01:12:35,708 --> 01:12:36,875
story by rolling dice.

373
01:12:37,916 --> 01:12:39,625
So functionally, what you're doing is

374
01:12:39,625 --> 01:12:40,666
you're sitting around the table with your

375
01:12:40,666 --> 01:12:42,625
friends, and you're telling a folktale.

376
01:12:43,583 --> 01:12:45,666
And instead of just deciding where you

377
01:12:45,666 --> 01:12:48,625
want the plot to go, you add dice rolls

378
01:12:48,625 --> 01:12:51,458
into it that dictate how things progress,

379
01:12:51,958 --> 01:12:54,333
that change the outcome of events that

380
01:12:54,333 --> 01:12:56,583
create random elements into the story.

381
01:12:56,583 --> 01:12:58,708
And then you have to adapt and respond to

382
01:12:58,708 --> 01:13:01,041
that story. So you are role playing a

383
01:13:01,041 --> 01:13:03,541
folktale of your own creation, in which

384
01:13:03,541 --> 01:13:04,750
you are not in complete

385
01:13:04,750 --> 01:13:05,125
control of the outcome.

386
01:13:05,166 --> 01:13:07,916
I think that's that's really interesting

387
01:13:07,916 --> 01:13:09,666
with the with the dice roll, because it's

388
01:13:09,666 --> 01:13:11,625
almost like risk in the game, the board

389
01:13:11,625 --> 01:13:13,333
game risk, where it's like, you think you

390
01:13:13,333 --> 01:13:14,291
know what you're going to do, you're

391
01:13:14,291 --> 01:13:15,250
going to take over a country, and then

392
01:13:15,250 --> 01:13:16,208
all of a sudden, the

393
01:13:16,208 --> 01:13:17,041
dice tell you different.

394
01:13:17,416 --> 01:13:19,250
And I think that's the same way with with

395
01:13:19,250 --> 01:13:20,583
Dungeons and Dragons, right? Like, you

396
01:13:20,583 --> 01:13:22,458
think you're going to win a battle or or

397
01:13:22,458 --> 01:13:25,041
pick something and venture the dice a

398
01:13:25,041 --> 01:13:25,750
differently and you have

399
01:13:25,750 --> 01:13:26,125
to you have to switch up.

400
01:13:26,166 --> 01:13:28,666
Yeah, and so dnd actually evolved from

401
01:13:28,666 --> 01:13:31,458
those tabletop war games. So, oh, really

402
01:13:31,458 --> 01:13:34,208
risk and dnd share a lot of the same

403
01:13:34,208 --> 01:13:36,000
bloodline that they've diverged quite a

404
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:39,583
bit. And, you know, combat, it doesn't

405
01:13:39,583 --> 01:13:41,041
have to be central to dnd and we've

406
01:13:41,041 --> 01:13:42,500
actually designed the last hunt for the

407
01:13:42,500 --> 01:13:45,500
Jabberwock adventure, so that you can

408
01:13:45,500 --> 01:13:47,083
complete the entire adventure without

409
01:13:47,083 --> 01:13:48,500
getting into any fights

410
01:13:48,500 --> 01:13:49,125
without using violence.

411
01:13:49,166 --> 01:13:51,916
That's cool. You can you can use cunning

412
01:13:51,916 --> 01:13:53,625
and you can be clever and you can solve

413
01:13:53,625 --> 01:13:56,583
riddles instead. So that like it's not

414
01:13:56,583 --> 01:13:58,166
doesn't have to be necessarily combat

415
01:13:58,166 --> 01:14:00,000
focused because there is there is a

416
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:01,125
violent element to dnd.

417
01:14:01,583 --> 01:14:03,375
And, you know, I love that a lot of

418
01:14:03,375 --> 01:14:05,083
people love that it's a great part of the

419
01:14:05,083 --> 01:14:06,333
gameplay. But if you're an educator,

420
01:14:06,583 --> 01:14:08,708
maybe that's not the direction you want

421
01:14:08,708 --> 01:14:09,125
to go if you're doing it with students.

422
01:14:09,166 --> 01:14:11,166
For sure. That makes sense.

423
01:14:11,458 --> 01:14:13,250
So that's that's the one half of dnd. The

424
01:14:13,250 --> 01:14:14,625
one half of it is a set of rules. The

425
01:14:14,625 --> 01:14:17,375
other half of dnd is the lore because dnd

426
01:14:17,375 --> 01:14:20,291
is a thing that has existed for 50 years

427
01:14:20,291 --> 01:14:22,416
and it has its own internal worlds and

428
01:14:22,416 --> 01:14:24,625
its own internal stories and its own

429
01:14:24,625 --> 01:14:27,250
internal IP, its own internal

430
01:14:27,250 --> 01:14:28,125
intellectual property.

431
01:14:28,166 --> 01:14:30,916
So things like beholders is big floating

432
01:14:30,916 --> 01:14:33,541
multi eyed monsters that are terrifying

433
01:14:33,541 --> 01:14:36,541
to dnd players and and Al bears, which is

434
01:14:36,541 --> 01:14:38,333
a monster that's half an owl and half a

435
01:14:38,333 --> 01:14:41,125
bear, which is my daughter's favorite

436
01:14:41,125 --> 01:14:42,125
monster of all time.

437
01:14:42,166 --> 01:14:45,708
And you know, characters like Vecna,

438
01:14:45,708 --> 01:14:48,166
which are in stranger things now and it

439
01:14:48,166 --> 01:14:50,416
kind of have transcended like just the

440
01:14:50,416 --> 01:14:52,333
dnd world to be something that people are

441
01:14:52,333 --> 01:14:54,791
more conscious and aware of. So there's

442
01:14:54,791 --> 01:14:56,125
lore that goes around along with that.

443
01:14:56,166 --> 01:14:58,625
And so that has, you know, the beauty of

444
01:14:58,625 --> 01:15:01,416
working in a fictional world that's

445
01:15:01,416 --> 01:15:02,708
already been created is that you don't

446
01:15:02,708 --> 01:15:04,541
have to do all the world building for it

447
01:15:04,541 --> 01:15:06,916
on your own. Like there's already this

448
01:15:06,916 --> 01:15:09,416
creative pool that you can draw from in

449
01:15:09,416 --> 01:15:11,750
order to tell new stories without having

450
01:15:11,750 --> 01:15:13,541
to retell the entire

451
01:15:13,541 --> 01:15:14,125
origin story of a world.

452
01:15:15,166 --> 01:15:17,708
And that's why like you have for for your

453
01:15:17,708 --> 01:15:19,333
story, you have like a structure already

454
01:15:19,333 --> 01:15:23,125
built and you can go on to this site. And

455
01:15:23,125 --> 01:15:24,791
is it just like a downloadable thing? Is

456
01:15:24,791 --> 01:15:26,791
that what it is? Is it like now with with

457
01:15:26,791 --> 01:15:28,125
websites and stuff? You just download

458
01:15:28,125 --> 01:15:30,625
like a PDF and then you can print it off

459
01:15:30,625 --> 01:15:31,875
or use a computer or

460
01:15:31,875 --> 01:15:32,125
whatever you like to do.

461
01:15:32,166 --> 01:15:33,958
Yeah. So if you go to Dungeon Master

462
01:15:33,958 --> 01:15:35,375
Guild and look for last time of the

463
01:15:35,375 --> 01:15:37,583
Jabber walk, you can you pay for the PDF

464
01:15:37,583 --> 01:15:39,875
and you download the PDF. There is a

465
01:15:39,875 --> 01:15:41,500
there is a sales threshold or once you

466
01:15:41,500 --> 01:15:43,583
hit that threshold, they will allow you

467
01:15:43,583 --> 01:15:44,041
to start making hard

468
01:15:44,041 --> 01:15:46,791
copies, which is really nice.

469
01:15:47,125 --> 01:15:49,291
We hit the first bestseller threshold

470
01:15:49,291 --> 01:15:51,541
earlier this month. So we are now a

471
01:15:51,541 --> 01:15:55,500
copper bestseller. It's all by metal

472
01:15:55,500 --> 01:15:58,708
badges. So, so, so it's pretty exciting.

473
01:15:58,916 --> 01:16:00,208
People are people are really getting into

474
01:16:00,208 --> 01:16:01,125
the adventure and taking a look at it.

475
01:16:01,166 --> 01:16:03,458
And I've already been in touch with

476
01:16:03,458 --> 01:16:05,291
several teachers who have started

477
01:16:05,291 --> 01:16:06,750
campaigns in their classrooms and their

478
01:16:06,750 --> 01:16:08,375
kids are really starting to enjoy them.

479
01:16:09,458 --> 01:16:11,791
One of the things we also did is we keyed

480
01:16:11,791 --> 01:16:13,541
all the lesson plans to the actual like

481
01:16:13,541 --> 01:16:15,875
next generation science standards and

482
01:16:15,875 --> 01:16:18,041
common core standards so that if you are

483
01:16:18,041 --> 01:16:19,708
a teacher, you can look those up in the

484
01:16:19,708 --> 01:16:21,375
background and see how you can plug those

485
01:16:21,375 --> 01:16:23,125
into your existing lesson plans as well.

486
01:16:23,833 --> 01:16:25,708
And that's that's where it really counts

487
01:16:25,708 --> 01:16:26,958
when you're talking about, you know,

488
01:16:27,541 --> 01:16:29,250
putting them into schools is making sure

489
01:16:29,250 --> 01:16:30,958
that you're following the right

490
01:16:30,958 --> 01:16:32,708
guidelines, following the make sure that

491
01:16:32,708 --> 01:16:34,708
they're hitting what they need to hit for

492
01:16:34,708 --> 01:16:36,458
their core success with the first thing I

493
01:16:36,458 --> 01:16:38,583
assume a teacher would ask is like, does

494
01:16:38,583 --> 01:16:39,125
this fit within our curriculum?

495
01:16:39,166 --> 01:16:43,500
Yes, and we've put a I say we it's I put

496
01:16:43,500 --> 01:16:47,458
a lot of effort into making it as easy as

497
01:16:47,458 --> 01:16:49,291
possible for a teacher who hasn't really

498
01:16:49,291 --> 01:16:50,916
done a lot of D&D before to pick it up

499
01:16:50,916 --> 01:16:52,833
and run it. So there's a bunch of

500
01:16:52,833 --> 01:16:54,750
guidance in the back on how to run it as

501
01:16:54,750 --> 01:16:57,000
a teacher, how to integrate the lesson

502
01:16:57,000 --> 01:16:59,000
plans into the adventure where to slot

503
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:00,125
different things if they want to.

504
01:17:00,166 --> 01:17:03,166
I will say if you're not, you know, if

505
01:17:03,166 --> 01:17:04,250
you're not a student or a teacher, you

506
01:17:04,250 --> 01:17:05,291
can still play the adventure. It's a

507
01:17:05,291 --> 01:17:08,208
really fun adventure. You don't have to

508
01:17:08,208 --> 01:17:10,166
use the lesson plans if you don't want

509
01:17:10,166 --> 01:17:12,416
to. You can just run the campaign on its

510
01:17:12,416 --> 01:17:14,125
own as a free freestanding thing.

511
01:17:14,166 --> 01:17:16,500
But, you know, I really think the lesson

512
01:17:16,500 --> 01:17:17,958
plans and the lesson plans are all about

513
01:17:17,958 --> 01:17:20,666
we have one big lesson plan that dives

514
01:17:20,666 --> 01:17:22,583
deep into into fire dominated forest

515
01:17:22,583 --> 01:17:25,291
ecology that looks at things like the

516
01:17:25,291 --> 01:17:28,083
Mount Diablo fire in California, which I

517
01:17:28,083 --> 01:17:29,875
really love as an example for fire

518
01:17:29,875 --> 01:17:31,458
dominated ecosystems because it's one of

519
01:17:31,458 --> 01:17:35,000
the big California wildfires that didn't

520
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:35,708
didn't result in any

521
01:17:35,708 --> 01:17:36,958
property damage or loss of life.

522
01:17:37,541 --> 01:17:40,291
It was a pure natural area wildfire. And

523
01:17:40,291 --> 01:17:42,541
so like you get to study the actual

524
01:17:42,541 --> 01:17:45,041
succession without, you know, all of the

525
01:17:45,041 --> 01:17:46,750
human tragedy that comes with that as

526
01:17:46,750 --> 01:17:49,291
well. Yeah, definitely. There's lessons

527
01:17:49,291 --> 01:17:51,791
on on building and removing dams. And

528
01:17:51,791 --> 01:17:53,250
then, of course, because it's last hunt

529
01:17:53,250 --> 01:17:55,166
for the Jabber walk and obviously has

530
01:17:55,166 --> 01:17:56,625
something to lose Carol. There's a bit on

531
01:17:56,625 --> 01:17:59,291
the Lewis Carroll poem as well. So you

532
01:17:59,291 --> 01:18:01,250
can you can share the adventure with an

533
01:18:01,250 --> 01:18:02,583
English teacher, too. It doesn't have to

534
01:18:02,583 --> 01:18:03,750
just be environmental science.

535
01:18:04,458 --> 01:18:07,208
And then one of the one of the things

536
01:18:07,208 --> 01:18:09,666
I've done is we snuck smaller lessons in

537
01:18:09,666 --> 01:18:13,125
there as well. Okay, so depending on how

538
01:18:13,125 --> 01:18:14,791
deep you want to go, there's a whole

539
01:18:14,791 --> 01:18:16,916
bunch of side quests that the students

540
01:18:16,916 --> 01:18:19,833
can run depending on time limitations or

541
01:18:19,833 --> 01:18:21,375
how excited about different things.

542
01:18:21,791 --> 01:18:22,875
And so there's a little lesson on

543
01:18:22,875 --> 01:18:26,625
invasive species. There's one on

544
01:18:26,625 --> 01:18:27,625
displacing

545
01:18:27,625 --> 01:18:29,250
communities when dams are built.

546
01:18:30,166 --> 01:18:32,458
There's an adventure in soap making where

547
01:18:32,458 --> 01:18:35,375
the students are going to spend a little

548
01:18:35,375 --> 01:18:37,875
bit of the adventure trying to brew a

549
01:18:37,875 --> 01:18:40,416
potion and slowly as they do it, they're

550
01:18:40,416 --> 01:18:41,250
going to learn that they're actually

551
01:18:41,250 --> 01:18:43,166
learning just the real way to make soap

552
01:18:43,166 --> 01:18:45,166
out of lie and tallow.

553
01:18:45,166 --> 01:18:48,458
Okay, I like that. I feel like those

554
01:18:48,458 --> 01:18:50,791
those like like the side story. Yes,

555
01:18:50,791 --> 01:18:52,916
would be a great like assignment after

556
01:18:52,916 --> 01:18:55,166
you do the real one and be like, hey, you

557
01:18:55,166 --> 01:18:56,958
know, you take some students you take you

558
01:18:56,958 --> 01:18:57,708
do this side story

559
01:18:57,708 --> 01:18:58,708
you do this side story.

560
01:19:00,166 --> 01:19:01,375
And then you're like, you're like, you're

561
01:19:01,375 --> 01:19:02,333
like, you pick a group and do it.

562
01:19:02,333 --> 01:19:04,708
Exactly. I can get used to that. I love

563
01:19:04,708 --> 01:19:08,625
that idea of this. Now, as you start to

564
01:19:08,625 --> 01:19:10,625
when you start to post this and you start

565
01:19:10,625 --> 01:19:13,750
to see teachers grab on to it, you know,

566
01:19:14,541 --> 01:19:16,875
dragons still can be controversial and

567
01:19:16,875 --> 01:19:19,000
certain circles that don't understand the

568
01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:20,125
game and what it's really about. Right.

569
01:19:20,166 --> 01:19:22,375
You just see the monsters and demons and

570
01:19:22,375 --> 01:19:23,833
things like that. I mean, less so now

571
01:19:23,833 --> 01:19:25,333
than it was when we were children,

572
01:19:25,333 --> 01:19:29,500
certainly, you know, we I run I run a

573
01:19:29,500 --> 01:19:31,666
campaign with our local public library.

574
01:19:32,041 --> 01:19:33,708
So we've had for two years now have been

575
01:19:33,708 --> 01:19:35,083
running the library D&D group.

576
01:19:35,833 --> 01:19:37,208
And that's a family group. So we have

577
01:19:37,208 --> 01:19:39,000
kids and their parents come in.

578
01:19:39,875 --> 01:19:41,458
Originally, the idea was it would be

579
01:19:41,458 --> 01:19:43,083
parents and kids playing together the

580
01:19:43,083 --> 01:19:45,166
whole time. But you're a parent. I'm a

581
01:19:45,166 --> 01:19:45,958
parent. You know exactly

582
01:19:45,958 --> 01:19:46,875
what's about to happen.

583
01:19:47,250 --> 01:19:48,916
Parents hear that and they're like, I can

584
01:19:48,916 --> 01:19:51,375
drop my kid off for three hours and go

585
01:19:51,375 --> 01:19:55,250
get dinner on my own. So we have we have

586
01:19:55,250 --> 01:19:57,166
a I'll be I'll be at the bar. I'll be at

587
01:19:57,166 --> 01:19:59,958
the pub. You guys you guys enjoy. So we

588
01:19:59,958 --> 01:20:01,791
have a few parents that show up for the

589
01:20:01,791 --> 01:20:03,583
game for the most part. It's kids and you

590
01:20:03,583 --> 01:20:06,083
know, the age range is seven to 15, which

591
01:20:06,083 --> 01:20:08,000
is perfect. And some older. We've had a

592
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:09,500
couple college kids come in during the

593
01:20:09,500 --> 01:20:11,291
summer and just want to play. And so it's

594
01:20:11,291 --> 01:20:14,041
great to have like multi generational

595
01:20:14,041 --> 01:20:15,125
groups playing. Yes.

596
01:20:15,166 --> 01:20:17,000
Because then you really get an

597
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:18,541
opportunity because how often do seven

598
01:20:18,541 --> 01:20:20,916
year olds get to like play a game with

599
01:20:20,916 --> 01:20:22,291
college kids in a way that they're

600
01:20:22,291 --> 01:20:24,166
they're both just part of it in at the

601
01:20:24,166 --> 01:20:26,958
same level. Yeah. Or in the case of our

602
01:20:26,958 --> 01:20:28,750
seven year old children. Yeah, exactly.

603
01:20:28,750 --> 01:20:29,125
They're working together.

604
01:20:29,166 --> 01:20:33,625
They're working together to survive this

605
01:20:33,625 --> 01:20:35,041
this adventure to learn about this

606
01:20:35,041 --> 01:20:37,000
adventure. And I honestly I think every

607
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:38,833
serious campaign needs at least one seven

608
01:20:38,833 --> 01:20:43,000
year old to just just throw a wrench at

609
01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:44,000
everything. Throw a wrench at everything.

610
01:20:44,291 --> 01:20:46,041
Come up with just the funnest stuff. The

611
01:20:46,041 --> 01:20:49,125
weirdest things. Yeah. We had you know,

612
01:20:49,125 --> 01:20:51,750
one of my favorite moments of any D and D

613
01:20:51,750 --> 01:20:53,833
adventures. We had a seven year old. He

614
01:20:53,833 --> 01:20:56,333
was playing a wizard and he was just

615
01:20:56,333 --> 01:20:57,541
really into like

616
01:20:57,541 --> 01:20:58,125
finding any potion you could.

617
01:20:58,166 --> 01:21:01,125
And pouring it all over his weapons to

618
01:21:01,125 --> 01:21:04,458
make a new weapon. And so he eventually

619
01:21:04,458 --> 01:21:06,625
he eventually turns his wizard staff into

620
01:21:06,625 --> 01:21:09,250
a giant rod of tungsten. And of course,

621
01:21:09,250 --> 01:21:10,416
at that point, he's going to be like,

622
01:21:10,416 --> 01:21:14,458
well, what's tungsten? And I happen to I

623
01:21:14,458 --> 01:21:16,416
keep a tungsten cube in my car in case I

624
01:21:16,416 --> 01:21:17,333
ever see a cyber truck.

625
01:21:19,166 --> 01:21:22,500
And I want to be like, hey, can I throw a

626
01:21:22,500 --> 01:21:26,708
rocket to see if it did? With consent.

627
01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:28,833
I'm not encouraging you to throw things

628
01:21:28,833 --> 01:21:31,333
at cyber trucks, but like, you know, if

629
01:21:31,333 --> 01:21:33,125
you ever get a get someone bragging about

630
01:21:33,125 --> 01:21:34,208
how tough it is, you pull out your

631
01:21:34,208 --> 01:21:35,583
tungsten cube and be like, hey, can I lob

632
01:21:35,583 --> 01:21:38,208
this at it? Yeah, let's see how it looks.

633
01:21:38,208 --> 01:21:39,458
Yeah, tough it is. So I haven't had my

634
01:21:39,458 --> 01:21:41,291
lucky tungsten cube with me. I'm like,

635
01:21:41,291 --> 01:21:42,625
all right, well, here's here's this. And

636
01:21:42,625 --> 01:21:45,250
we talk about like, metals intensity and

637
01:21:45,250 --> 01:21:46,458
all that stuff, which is really cool.

638
01:21:46,458 --> 01:21:47,625
Because one of the other kids at the

639
01:21:47,625 --> 01:21:48,166
table, his dad's a black guy.

640
01:21:49,166 --> 01:21:50,708
And he's like, I'm a blacksmith. Like a

641
01:21:50,708 --> 01:21:51,833
real blacksmith, not a fantasy

642
01:21:51,833 --> 01:21:53,625
blacksmith. And so we got to like, really

643
01:21:53,625 --> 01:21:56,958
get into like, big ideas about metals and

644
01:21:56,958 --> 01:21:58,291
what they really are and how they

645
01:21:58,291 --> 01:22:00,750
function. Which, you know, that's the

646
01:22:00,750 --> 01:22:01,791
kind of thing that comes out when you

647
01:22:01,791 --> 01:22:03,916
just you let the kids go wild and you

648
01:22:03,916 --> 01:22:05,000
have a very mixed table.

649
01:22:06,166 --> 01:22:09,375
I feel like there's such a good place for

650
01:22:09,375 --> 01:22:12,291
this in classroom. Yes, because like, you

651
01:22:12,291 --> 01:22:13,750
know, I've got two teenage daughters,

652
01:22:13,750 --> 01:22:16,583
they're 15 and 17. And the biggest thing

653
01:22:16,583 --> 01:22:19,958
that they come home with is, I go to

654
01:22:19,958 --> 01:22:21,750
school. What do you

655
01:22:21,750 --> 01:22:23,125
think the response is? Fine.

656
01:22:23,166 --> 01:22:27,958
No, boring. No, it was boring. Because

657
01:22:27,958 --> 01:22:29,791
they just, you know, it's a lecture.

658
01:22:30,166 --> 01:22:31,500
Yeah, it's essentially a lecture. You're

659
01:22:31,500 --> 01:22:33,625
listening to one person talk about a

660
01:22:33,625 --> 01:22:36,166
subject you may or may not be interested

661
01:22:36,166 --> 01:22:38,875
in. Like, I remember biology, like, I was

662
01:22:38,875 --> 01:22:40,750
not interested in human biology when I

663
01:22:40,750 --> 01:22:42,125
went to high school, all my

664
01:22:42,125 --> 01:22:43,958
projects were on animals, right?

665
01:22:44,166 --> 01:22:46,416
On some kind like dolphin or whale or

666
01:22:46,416 --> 01:22:48,208
shark or something like that. I had to

667
01:22:48,208 --> 01:22:51,000
get special permission to do those. But

668
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:54,916
you know, like if you do it, like a D and

669
01:22:54,916 --> 01:22:59,125
D type of exercise, you're including the

670
01:22:59,125 --> 01:23:01,458
kids in it. Right. They're they have to

671
01:23:01,458 --> 01:23:04,125
know the story. They have to know the stuff and questions are going to come in.

672
01:23:04,166 --> 01:23:05,333
and questions are going to come up.

673
01:23:05,333 --> 01:23:06,625
Well, they're not just knowing the story,

674
01:23:06,625 --> 01:23:07,875
they're driving the story.

675
01:23:08,250 --> 01:23:09,041
They're driving the story.

676
01:23:09,041 --> 01:23:10,125
So functionally it's

677
01:23:10,125 --> 01:23:11,291
experiential education.

678
01:23:11,666 --> 01:23:13,000
Like the approach I take

679
01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:14,500
to building a D&D adventure

680
01:23:14,500 --> 01:23:17,000
is the same approach I take to designing

681
01:23:17,166 --> 01:23:18,791
like an educational hiking experience

682
01:23:19,500 --> 01:23:21,000
or designing like the

683
01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:22,250
hands-on workshops I do

684
01:23:22,250 --> 01:23:23,541
with ocean sensor systems

685
01:23:23,541 --> 01:23:24,833
and going out in the field on boats.

686
01:23:25,250 --> 01:23:27,375
Like it is at its heart,

687
01:23:27,458 --> 01:23:28,916
it's all that same

688
01:23:28,916 --> 01:23:31,208
experiential education policy.

689
01:23:31,208 --> 01:23:33,375
It's just, you know, with D&D,

690
01:23:33,416 --> 01:23:35,166
you don't have to organize a field trip.

691
01:23:35,958 --> 01:23:36,208
Right.

692
01:23:36,916 --> 01:23:38,833
It's like the cheap way of doing things.

693
01:23:38,875 --> 01:23:40,500
Yeah, so they can get that experience,

694
01:23:41,791 --> 01:23:42,750
they get self-confidence,

695
01:23:43,375 --> 01:23:45,166
they get to drive the lesson

696
01:23:45,291 --> 01:23:46,500
and they get to do the discovery,

697
01:23:46,750 --> 01:23:47,625
which is the real point

698
01:23:47,625 --> 01:23:48,750
of experiential education

699
01:23:48,916 --> 01:23:50,125
is that like, you know,

700
01:23:50,125 --> 01:23:51,333
I can tell you how a fire

701
01:23:51,333 --> 01:23:52,750
dominated ecosystem works,

702
01:23:53,250 --> 01:23:55,750
but it's way more fun to walk through one

703
01:23:56,083 --> 01:23:57,375
and see how things change

704
01:23:57,541 --> 01:23:59,291
as you get away from the fire scars

705
01:23:59,833 --> 01:24:02,000
and see like figure out,

706
01:24:02,750 --> 01:24:04,333
like as you explore,

707
01:24:04,500 --> 01:24:05,750
what caused different

708
01:24:05,750 --> 01:24:07,416
aspects of the forest to change

709
01:24:08,500 --> 01:24:10,000
and make that discovery, you know,

710
01:24:10,375 --> 01:24:12,625
discovery as play is a really great way

711
01:24:12,625 --> 01:24:13,500
to teach big

712
01:24:13,500 --> 01:24:14,833
environmental concepts as well.

713
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:18,000
Yeah, I love this idea, I really do.

714
01:24:19,291 --> 01:24:21,708
So when teachers started to pick up,

715
01:24:22,166 --> 01:24:23,541
like were the teachers that picked it up

716
01:24:24,041 --> 01:24:25,750
familiar with D&D already?

717
01:24:26,166 --> 01:24:26,625
Cause you said it's

718
01:24:26,625 --> 01:24:27,958
like a beginner can do it.

719
01:24:27,958 --> 01:24:28,916
Like if I was a teacher

720
01:24:28,916 --> 01:24:29,916
and I just picked it up,

721
01:24:29,916 --> 01:24:30,833
or even if I just picked it up

722
01:24:30,833 --> 01:24:32,291
and didn't for a bunch of students,

723
01:24:32,583 --> 01:24:33,958
I would be able to kind of follow it

724
01:24:33,958 --> 01:24:35,916
and learn it and be able to do it.

725
01:24:35,916 --> 01:24:37,250
I may not be as good as

726
01:24:37,250 --> 01:24:38,333
somebody who's experienced,

727
01:24:38,541 --> 01:24:39,333
but the teachers who

728
01:24:39,333 --> 01:24:39,958
picked it up at first,

729
01:24:40,250 --> 01:24:42,000
they were familiar with D&D,

730
01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:43,166
they're already familiar with the site

731
01:24:43,500 --> 01:24:44,500
and how it all plays out

732
01:24:44,500 --> 01:24:44,875
and they've probably

733
01:24:44,875 --> 01:24:45,666
run a couple of games

734
01:24:45,666 --> 01:24:47,000
or been a part of a couple of games.

735
01:24:47,500 --> 01:24:48,125
Yeah, so one of the

736
01:24:48,125 --> 01:24:49,750
consequences of doing it

737
01:24:49,791 --> 01:24:52,500
as a D&D property and like,

738
01:24:52,916 --> 01:24:53,708
because Dungeons and

739
01:24:53,708 --> 01:24:54,833
Dragons is so recognizable,

740
01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:55,750
that is a very

741
01:24:55,750 --> 01:24:59,166
compelling playground to work in.

742
01:24:59,166 --> 01:24:59,375
Yeah.

743
01:24:59,916 --> 01:25:01,166
But one of the consequences of that

744
01:25:01,166 --> 01:25:02,375
is that you have to publish through

745
01:25:02,375 --> 01:25:03,333
Dungeon Masters Guild,

746
01:25:04,375 --> 01:25:06,208
which has a, actually one

747
01:25:06,208 --> 01:25:07,833
of the best content sharing

748
01:25:07,916 --> 01:25:09,708
royalty arrangements I've ever seen for,

749
01:25:09,708 --> 01:25:10,625
in a established IP.

750
01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:11,333
It's 50%.

751
01:25:12,708 --> 01:25:12,791
Wow, that's huge.

752
01:25:12,833 --> 01:25:14,416
Which is, I mean, that's unheard of.

753
01:25:14,416 --> 01:25:16,375
And you get to use assets

754
01:25:16,375 --> 01:25:17,458
from Dungeons and Dragons.

755
01:25:19,791 --> 01:25:20,833
And, you know, a 50%

756
01:25:21,083 --> 01:25:22,125
royalty is unbelievable

757
01:25:22,541 --> 01:25:23,750
for something where they give you access

758
01:25:23,750 --> 01:25:24,833
to the IP like that.

759
01:25:25,541 --> 01:25:27,625
But because of that, you have to publish

760
01:25:27,625 --> 01:25:29,000
through that specific venue.

761
01:25:29,291 --> 01:25:31,333
And like, if you're not already familiar

762
01:25:31,333 --> 01:25:32,166
with Dungeons and Dragons

763
01:25:32,166 --> 01:25:32,833
and probably not

764
01:25:32,833 --> 01:25:33,750
already a Dungeon Master,

765
01:25:33,750 --> 01:25:34,208
you don't know what

766
01:25:34,208 --> 01:25:35,250
Dungeon Master's Guild is.

767
01:25:35,791 --> 01:25:37,083
Like, that's not something that is...

768
01:25:37,375 --> 01:25:38,083
It'll take a little while.

769
01:25:38,250 --> 01:25:38,666
It takes a little.

770
01:25:38,750 --> 01:25:40,375
So absolutely, the first

771
01:25:40,375 --> 01:25:42,083
teachers in engaging it

772
01:25:42,083 --> 01:25:43,583
are very familiar with Dungeons and

773
01:25:43,583 --> 01:25:44,666
Dragons to begin with.

774
01:25:44,666 --> 01:25:44,875
Yeah.

775
01:25:45,500 --> 01:25:47,083
And are looking for ways to integrate it.

776
01:25:47,083 --> 01:25:47,750
And in some cases, they've

777
01:25:47,750 --> 01:25:48,750
already found ways to integrate

778
01:25:48,750 --> 01:25:49,833
other kinds of D&D

779
01:25:49,833 --> 01:25:51,000
lessons into their classrooms.

780
01:25:52,875 --> 01:25:54,833
So we're starting from there.

781
01:25:55,666 --> 01:25:56,833
You know, unfortunately, I won't be able

782
01:25:56,833 --> 01:25:58,125
to make it available anywhere else

783
01:25:58,250 --> 01:26:00,041
because of that IP sharing arrangement.

784
01:26:00,791 --> 01:26:01,000
Yeah, of course. Of course.

785
01:26:01,000 --> 01:26:02,291
But we're hoping that other people pick

786
01:26:02,291 --> 01:26:03,458
it up and give it a try.

787
01:26:03,458 --> 01:26:04,750
And people who aren't familiar with D&D

788
01:26:04,750 --> 01:26:05,708
pick it up and give it a try.

789
01:26:06,208 --> 01:26:07,375
Well, I feel like now it's going to be

790
01:26:07,375 --> 01:26:09,125
like once the people who do pick it up

791
01:26:09,125 --> 01:26:09,916
start using, they've

792
01:26:09,916 --> 01:26:11,083
already started to use it.

793
01:26:11,666 --> 01:26:13,500
Now you're starting to get feedback. Yes.

794
01:26:13,791 --> 01:26:16,333
You know, on the sort of the like

795
01:26:16,333 --> 01:26:18,250
evaluation of how well it works.

796
01:26:18,500 --> 01:26:20,291
You know, how do the kids respond to it?

797
01:26:21,208 --> 01:26:22,833
You know, how do the teachers respond to

798
01:26:22,833 --> 01:26:24,166
the kids responding to it?

799
01:26:24,166 --> 01:26:24,916
You know, did they learn

800
01:26:24,916 --> 01:26:26,500
that the material more?

801
01:26:27,375 --> 01:26:28,625
Did they enjoy it? Do

802
01:26:28,625 --> 01:26:29,625
they want to do more?

803
01:26:30,041 --> 01:26:31,791
Then I think they'll start to talk to

804
01:26:31,791 --> 01:26:32,500
other teachers in their

805
01:26:32,500 --> 01:26:33,708
school like, what are you doing?

806
01:26:33,708 --> 01:26:35,875
What is this? The educational start of

807
01:26:35,875 --> 01:26:37,375
just like what this is all about.

808
01:26:38,000 --> 01:26:39,875
And then the idea is that that'll start

809
01:26:39,875 --> 01:26:41,708
to spread through through word of mouth.

810
01:26:42,125 --> 01:26:43,375
I assume is that is sort

811
01:26:43,375 --> 01:26:44,291
of the goal? Is that it?

812
01:26:44,625 --> 01:26:45,583
Yeah, I ultimately that's

813
01:26:45,583 --> 01:26:46,541
the goal, word of mouth.

814
01:26:46,541 --> 01:26:47,791
And of course, Southern Fried Science,

815
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:49,541
which is, you know, my venue for

816
01:26:49,541 --> 01:26:50,250
spreading everything.

817
01:26:50,541 --> 01:26:51,958
A little site, a little site that

818
01:26:51,958 --> 01:26:53,208
provides some information.

819
01:26:53,250 --> 01:26:54,458
A lesser known ocean science website.

820
01:26:55,625 --> 01:26:57,416
I think we have reclaimed our title as

821
01:26:57,416 --> 01:26:59,291
the most widely read ocean science blog

822
01:26:59,291 --> 01:27:00,416
in the English language.

823
01:27:00,916 --> 01:27:01,833
I'll tell you.

824
01:27:02,458 --> 01:27:03,000
It's the end.

825
01:27:03,250 --> 01:27:04,875
You know, I think that's from attrition,

826
01:27:04,875 --> 01:27:06,875
not from any success on our end.

827
01:27:07,458 --> 01:27:09,041
Well, I'll tell you, though, but the

828
01:27:09,041 --> 01:27:10,375
quality of articles

829
01:27:10,375 --> 01:27:11,083
that come out of there.

830
01:27:11,500 --> 01:27:15,416
I'm always happy reading those articles.

831
01:27:16,208 --> 01:27:18,083
I always put them in my newsletter every

832
01:27:18,083 --> 01:27:20,375
time I pop them in, you know, and it's

833
01:27:20,375 --> 01:27:22,208
like, I'm like, this is a good one.

834
01:27:23,208 --> 01:27:25,208
So yeah, so they're always great.

835
01:27:25,208 --> 01:27:25,958
They're always informative.

836
01:27:26,916 --> 01:27:29,500
They've driven a lot of podcasts before.

837
01:27:29,833 --> 01:27:30,666
I'm happy to help.

838
01:27:30,666 --> 01:27:31,916
Whether you're on it or not.

839
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:33,625
Sometimes I'm like,

840
01:27:33,791 --> 01:27:34,500
oh, this is a good way.

841
01:27:34,500 --> 01:27:35,250
I got to talk about this.

842
01:27:35,250 --> 01:27:37,041
But then you also have like guest writers

843
01:27:37,041 --> 01:27:37,791
and stuff like that.

844
01:27:37,791 --> 01:27:39,625
That also put like, Angelo's been on it.

845
01:27:39,625 --> 01:27:40,916
And obviously who's like,

846
01:27:40,958 --> 01:27:42,166
Angelo is not a guest writer.

847
01:27:42,458 --> 01:27:43,708
He is. He's an official writer.

848
01:27:43,708 --> 01:27:44,166
Full on now.

849
01:27:44,375 --> 01:27:45,041
Full on. Yeah.

850
01:27:45,375 --> 01:27:46,208
OK. I love it.

851
01:27:46,916 --> 01:27:49,166
Yeah, I really like what the last article

852
01:27:49,166 --> 01:27:50,166
that David Shiffman and

853
01:27:50,166 --> 01:27:51,125
Brett Favaro are doing,

854
01:27:51,250 --> 01:27:53,541
which is they had a, you know, they had a

855
01:27:53,541 --> 01:27:54,416
paper that they were having trouble

856
01:27:54,416 --> 01:27:56,791
getting published in a scientific journal

857
01:27:56,791 --> 01:27:57,875
or finally like, you know what?

858
01:27:57,875 --> 01:27:58,833
We're done. We're done

859
01:27:58,833 --> 01:28:00,458
trying to get this into a journal.

860
01:28:00,458 --> 01:28:00,791
We're just going to

861
01:28:00,791 --> 01:28:01,791
publish it as a blog post.

862
01:28:02,125 --> 01:28:03,791
And I can guarantee you more people have

863
01:28:03,791 --> 01:28:05,625
read it now than would have ever read it

864
01:28:05,625 --> 01:28:06,500
in a scientific journal.

865
01:28:06,916 --> 01:28:08,083
100%. Especially it's

866
01:28:08,083 --> 01:28:08,916
on science communication.

867
01:28:09,125 --> 01:28:10,291
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

868
01:28:10,583 --> 01:28:11,333
And it's a what? A four?

869
01:28:11,583 --> 01:28:14,041
It's a four part series.

870
01:28:14,333 --> 01:28:15,708
Yeah. And yeah, I've

871
01:28:15,708 --> 01:28:17,250
already started to read it.

872
01:28:17,250 --> 01:28:19,583
And it's, I mean, it's so informative.

873
01:28:19,625 --> 01:28:21,541
You know, these are two people who have

874
01:28:21,541 --> 01:28:26,125
had a lot of very different communication

875
01:28:26,125 --> 01:28:28,041
styles and different topics

876
01:28:28,041 --> 01:28:30,541
to draw some information from.

877
01:28:30,541 --> 01:28:31,916
And they have a lot of, they know a lot

878
01:28:31,916 --> 01:28:34,291
of people that can inform them on

879
01:28:34,291 --> 01:28:35,666
different aspects, too.

880
01:28:35,666 --> 01:28:36,291
So I think those are

881
01:28:36,291 --> 01:28:37,000
going to be really great.

882
01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:38,541
We'll link to that as well as the

883
01:28:38,541 --> 01:28:41,250
Dungeons and Dungeons Masters Guild in

884
01:28:41,250 --> 01:28:41,916
there, too, so people

885
01:28:41,916 --> 01:28:42,791
can get access to it.

886
01:28:43,583 --> 01:28:47,208
So, yeah, so obviously Southern Fried

887
01:28:47,208 --> 01:28:49,166
Science, we'll be able to get some

888
01:28:49,166 --> 01:28:50,166
information on that.

889
01:28:51,000 --> 01:28:54,125
Like, are you planning on publishing an

890
01:28:54,125 --> 01:28:55,458
article, whether it be on Southern Fried

891
01:28:55,458 --> 01:28:56,583
Science or elsewhere,

892
01:28:57,500 --> 01:28:58,750
on sort of the, like, are you following

893
01:28:58,750 --> 01:29:00,458
and keeping in touch with the

894
01:29:00,458 --> 01:29:01,791
people who have downloaded it

895
01:29:01,958 --> 01:29:05,375
to kind of get feedback on what's

896
01:29:05,375 --> 01:29:07,250
working, what's not, that kind of stuff?

897
01:29:07,250 --> 01:29:09,000
Oh, yeah, absolutely. So we've published

898
01:29:09,000 --> 01:29:10,000
a couple of articles already,

899
01:29:10,625 --> 01:29:12,583
kind of the initial sort of launch of the

900
01:29:12,583 --> 01:29:13,708
project and sort of

901
01:29:13,708 --> 01:29:15,000
lessons learned from that.

902
01:29:16,083 --> 01:29:17,833
And I'm keeping, you know, it's a 12 to

903
01:29:17,833 --> 01:29:19,208
20 hour campaign means it's probably

904
01:29:19,208 --> 01:29:20,750
going to take a semester of

905
01:29:20,750 --> 01:29:22,041
finding the time to run it.

906
01:29:22,041 --> 01:29:22,500
And so we're getting

907
01:29:22,500 --> 01:29:23,833
feedback as it goes in.

908
01:29:24,333 --> 01:29:25,833
I'm sure there'll be a second edition

909
01:29:25,833 --> 01:29:28,083
with lots of changes and corrections to

910
01:29:28,083 --> 01:29:30,541
help people out and get feedback.

911
01:29:30,958 --> 01:29:32,583
And, you know, I'm hoping long term that

912
01:29:32,583 --> 01:29:34,208
we can, you know, do

913
01:29:34,208 --> 01:29:35,291
this as a regular thing.

914
01:29:35,291 --> 01:29:37,000
Every so often publish new adventures,

915
01:29:37,541 --> 01:29:38,666
you know, get some more

916
01:29:38,666 --> 01:29:40,083
marine science in there next time.

917
01:29:40,125 --> 01:29:43,041
Maybe adventure to the abyssal plane.

918
01:29:43,625 --> 01:29:45,000
I love it.

919
01:29:45,625 --> 01:29:46,916
It's basically like Meg three.

920
01:29:47,250 --> 01:29:49,750
Do a DC Mining campaign. You never know.

921
01:29:49,791 --> 01:29:51,541
There you go. Oh, I like that.

922
01:29:51,583 --> 01:29:51,791
Yeah.

923
01:29:51,833 --> 01:29:55,500
I like that. No, that's amazing. And even

924
01:29:55,500 --> 01:29:57,458
like not even just in classrooms, I feel

925
01:29:57,458 --> 01:29:59,083
like a lot of the eco

926
01:29:59,083 --> 01:30:00,916
clubs could be doing this too.

927
01:30:00,916 --> 01:30:01,041
Yeah.

928
01:30:01,125 --> 01:30:02,666
Probably get through more of the stories

929
01:30:02,666 --> 01:30:05,083
because they can spend, you know, every

930
01:30:05,083 --> 01:30:07,333
day of a week to just do like a campaign

931
01:30:07,333 --> 01:30:08,250
or something like that

932
01:30:08,250 --> 01:30:09,458
or a couple of weeks.

933
01:30:09,625 --> 01:30:10,875
Well, I'll tell you, I mean, my daughter,

934
01:30:11,583 --> 01:30:13,083
every summer she does a camp

935
01:30:13,083 --> 01:30:14,541
at the local Audubon Society.

936
01:30:15,333 --> 01:30:17,083
And after lunch, every single day of

937
01:30:17,083 --> 01:30:19,083
camp, they have a little mini D&D session

938
01:30:19,083 --> 01:30:20,541
where they talk about.

939
01:30:21,250 --> 01:30:21,875
It's part of the camp.

940
01:30:22,166 --> 01:30:24,000
Part of the camp. Talk about the animals

941
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:26,333
they've encountered and, you know, talk

942
01:30:26,333 --> 01:30:27,458
about a little bit of ecology.

943
01:30:28,666 --> 01:30:30,666
I think last year they were fighting a

944
01:30:30,666 --> 01:30:32,875
croc that stole crocs because people kept

945
01:30:32,875 --> 01:30:34,500
losing their shoes in the in the marsh.

946
01:30:37,875 --> 01:30:40,708
Croc made of crocs. It was a giant croc,

947
01:30:40,708 --> 01:30:43,125
but it wasn't like a giant the shoe croc.

948
01:30:43,416 --> 01:30:44,500
Oh, that is so it had to

949
01:30:44,500 --> 01:30:46,083
eat crocs to be exactly.

950
01:30:47,166 --> 01:30:47,625
Yeah, that's awesome.

951
01:30:47,875 --> 01:30:49,500
Yeah, and like integrated into the camp

952
01:30:49,500 --> 01:30:51,125
and like part of their experience.

953
01:30:51,416 --> 01:30:53,541
And it's wonderful to see because like,

954
01:30:53,541 --> 01:30:56,000
you know, that opportunity to like still

955
01:30:56,000 --> 01:30:57,500
be engaged, but it's like, you know,

956
01:30:57,500 --> 01:30:58,583
you're not hiking through the woods,

957
01:30:58,583 --> 01:31:00,125
maybe a little tired after lunch, but

958
01:31:00,125 --> 01:31:02,291
it's a chance to continue to talk about

959
01:31:02,291 --> 01:31:02,958
the topic in a

960
01:31:02,958 --> 01:31:04,166
different way and in a new way.

961
01:31:04,750 --> 01:31:06,958
And I also feel like it just, it helps

962
01:31:06,958 --> 01:31:08,166
you develop that creativity.

963
01:31:08,500 --> 01:31:08,916
Absolutely.

964
01:31:09,125 --> 01:31:10,916
Right? Like D&D just in general helps you

965
01:31:10,916 --> 01:31:12,250
develop that creativity. That's the one

966
01:31:12,250 --> 01:31:13,916
thing I really respect of this is because

967
01:31:13,916 --> 01:31:17,916
you have to adapt so quickly in a story.

968
01:31:18,166 --> 01:31:19,833
It really makes you think. It really

969
01:31:19,833 --> 01:31:20,750
makes you open up your

970
01:31:20,750 --> 01:31:22,166
mind. It's almost like improv.

971
01:31:22,458 --> 01:31:24,500
It is improv. Yeah. Oh, my improv skills

972
01:31:24,500 --> 01:31:26,500
have gotten so much better since I got

973
01:31:26,500 --> 01:31:28,250
back into DMing about three years ago.

974
01:31:28,791 --> 01:31:31,250
Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. And so I think

975
01:31:31,250 --> 01:31:33,541
it's really great for kids who, you know,

976
01:31:33,541 --> 01:31:36,000
in a world dominated by phones, you know,

977
01:31:36,250 --> 01:31:38,791
especially teenagers and tweens where

978
01:31:38,791 --> 01:31:39,333
they're just looking

979
01:31:39,333 --> 01:31:40,375
at phones all the time.

980
01:31:40,916 --> 01:31:42,583
This is a great way to really get them to

981
01:31:42,583 --> 01:31:44,458
interact, get them off their phones, get

982
01:31:44,458 --> 01:31:46,500
them into something creative, you know,

983
01:31:47,000 --> 01:31:49,875
and learn about themselves in terms of

984
01:31:49,875 --> 01:31:53,583
how they can actually, you know, build on

985
01:31:53,583 --> 01:31:55,708
storytelling and which we're going to

986
01:31:55,708 --> 01:31:57,583
need in any kind of job that you do.

987
01:31:57,875 --> 01:31:59,541
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. You have to have

988
01:31:59,541 --> 01:32:00,833
good storytelling skills. That's awesome.

989
01:32:01,125 --> 01:32:02,416
You know, one of the tremendous things to

990
01:32:02,416 --> 01:32:03,458
see is that because, you know, Dungeons

991
01:32:03,458 --> 01:32:05,125
and Dragons is 50 years old this year.

992
01:32:05,791 --> 01:32:06,916
Yeah, it's crazy. So we have kids that

993
01:32:06,916 --> 01:32:08,875
are sharing adventures with their parents

994
01:32:08,875 --> 01:32:09,958
and their grandparents.

995
01:32:11,250 --> 01:32:11,333
Wow.

996
01:32:11,333 --> 01:32:12,625
And so there's this beautiful little

997
01:32:12,625 --> 01:32:14,000
chain of connection

998
01:32:14,000 --> 01:32:15,625
going across generations now.

999
01:32:16,583 --> 01:32:19,375
That's phenomenal. That's just amazing.

1000
01:32:19,791 --> 01:32:21,416
And you know what? It's been 50 years and

1001
01:32:21,416 --> 01:32:23,041
it still takes 20 minutes to open a door.

1002
01:32:26,375 --> 01:32:30,208
You got to figure out something that goes

1003
01:32:30,208 --> 01:32:32,250
on. But like, so, so is this something

1004
01:32:32,250 --> 01:32:34,958
like, like, I know you have, you, you are

1005
01:32:34,958 --> 01:32:38,291
one of the guys that I know who, you

1006
01:32:38,291 --> 01:32:39,916
know, when you have an idea, you go full

1007
01:32:39,916 --> 01:32:43,041
fledged and you develop the idea over

1008
01:32:43,041 --> 01:32:45,500
time and it, and it, it obviously gets

1009
01:32:45,500 --> 01:32:47,041
better and better as it goes along.

1010
01:32:47,291 --> 01:32:49,958
I hope so. OpenCTD has done your

1011
01:32:49,958 --> 01:32:52,250
projects, you know, through the, like,

1012
01:32:52,250 --> 01:32:53,625
through Patreon, even like following

1013
01:32:53,625 --> 01:32:55,125
through Patreon and documenting that

1014
01:32:55,125 --> 01:32:57,875
process on here as well. The, the deep

1015
01:32:57,875 --> 01:32:59,916
sea mining, obviously that's something

1016
01:32:59,916 --> 01:33:01,416
that you're an expert in, but you've

1017
01:33:01,416 --> 01:33:04,791
continued to kind of really creatively,

1018
01:33:04,791 --> 01:33:07,041
like, get into different aspects of it.

1019
01:33:07,875 --> 01:33:10,583
You know, with the magazine and stuff and

1020
01:33:10,583 --> 01:33:12,791
coming on the podcast and your articles

1021
01:33:12,791 --> 01:33:16,583
and things with this project, you know,

1022
01:33:16,583 --> 01:33:17,833
obviously you're, you're going to develop

1023
01:33:17,833 --> 01:33:20,750
it even more through feedback. And you're

1024
01:33:20,750 --> 01:33:22,000
talking about doing maybe different

1025
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:24,625
scenarios, different, different story

1026
01:33:24,625 --> 01:33:26,125
lines and stuff like that.

1027
01:33:26,666 --> 01:33:29,250
Like, how much time are you ready to

1028
01:33:29,250 --> 01:33:31,625
dedicate to this, to

1029
01:33:31,625 --> 01:33:33,041
this type of project?

1030
01:33:34,583 --> 01:33:37,333
So that is an interesting question. And,

1031
01:33:37,333 --> 01:33:39,166
you know, in addition to the kinds of

1032
01:33:39,166 --> 01:33:40,625
projects I do, I always have to do like

1033
01:33:40,625 --> 01:33:43,125
an ROI analysis of things to figure out

1034
01:33:43,125 --> 01:33:45,250
like where I need to invest my time

1035
01:33:45,250 --> 01:33:48,541
because in addition to being like a very

1036
01:33:48,541 --> 01:33:49,750
silly whimsical man, I

1037
01:33:49,750 --> 01:33:50,416
also have a mortgage.

1038
01:33:52,041 --> 01:33:54,791
So this was, you know, this was a nights

1039
01:33:54,791 --> 01:33:57,000
and weekends kind of project for the

1040
01:33:57,000 --> 01:33:58,541
last, for the last year.

1041
01:33:59,666 --> 01:34:02,125
And, you know, I'd like to see, I'd like

1042
01:34:02,125 --> 01:34:04,791
to see it break even before, before I

1043
01:34:04,791 --> 01:34:06,458
really focus on the next big project

1044
01:34:06,458 --> 01:34:08,000
that's kind of D&D focused.

1045
01:34:08,416 --> 01:34:11,041
I commissioned a lot of art for, for the

1046
01:34:11,041 --> 01:34:13,166
actual campaign so that, you know,

1047
01:34:13,166 --> 01:34:15,000
there's, there's visual aids to kind of

1048
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:16,916
capture the spirit of the adventure.

1049
01:34:17,208 --> 01:34:18,625
Because I like commissioning artists and

1050
01:34:18,625 --> 01:34:19,541
paying artists to do

1051
01:34:19,541 --> 01:34:20,666
good work. Of course.

1052
01:34:20,750 --> 01:34:23,708
So there's no, no AI art in it at all.

1053
01:34:23,708 --> 01:34:24,625
It's all original art

1054
01:34:24,625 --> 01:34:27,125
from Aaron Anderson. Yes.

1055
01:34:28,041 --> 01:34:30,625
We designed a lot of maps. So that was

1056
01:34:30,625 --> 01:34:32,250
mostly me, but building

1057
01:34:32,250 --> 01:34:33,583
maps is very time intensive.

1058
01:34:35,291 --> 01:34:37,875
So once I hit the break even point, I'll

1059
01:34:37,875 --> 01:34:40,416
have a better idea of like what I can do

1060
01:34:40,416 --> 01:34:44,125
pushing forward in terms of like actually

1061
01:34:44,125 --> 01:34:45,041
generating these pretty consistently.

1062
01:34:45,041 --> 01:34:48,041
Like I'm always like I run a D&D campaign

1063
01:34:48,041 --> 01:34:49,916
at my library. I want run one with my

1064
01:34:49,916 --> 01:34:52,000
family and I have the podcast as well.

1065
01:34:52,125 --> 01:34:54,250
So like I'm steeped in it all the time.

1066
01:34:54,250 --> 01:34:57,375
I've got a million notes, but, but really

1067
01:34:57,375 --> 01:34:59,958
getting, you know, the, the hard part was

1068
01:34:59,958 --> 01:35:01,000
not the D&D campaign.

1069
01:35:01,000 --> 01:35:03,500
The hard part was making it work as an

1070
01:35:03,500 --> 01:35:05,041
educational tool. Yeah, of course.

1071
01:35:05,375 --> 01:35:07,041
And building out the lesson plans and

1072
01:35:07,041 --> 01:35:09,916
making sure that the adventure match what

1073
01:35:09,916 --> 01:35:11,958
we were trying to teach and was, you

1074
01:35:11,958 --> 01:35:14,916
know, adding to that lesson rather than

1075
01:35:14,916 --> 01:35:16,458
kind of distracting from it.

1076
01:35:17,166 --> 01:35:18,041
Yeah, no doubt.

1077
01:35:18,041 --> 01:35:20,208
So, you know, that takes a lot of work

1078
01:35:20,208 --> 01:35:22,500
and, you know, I think I probably

1079
01:35:22,500 --> 01:35:26,333
committed about a month of my time full

1080
01:35:26,333 --> 01:35:29,000
time to just doing the copy editing and

1081
01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:31,291
getting all the layout and everything and

1082
01:35:31,291 --> 01:35:32,791
doing some of the testing and

1083
01:35:32,791 --> 01:35:34,208
making sure it all made sense.

1084
01:35:35,625 --> 01:35:36,291
So it's not a small

1085
01:35:36,291 --> 01:35:38,000
chunk of time. No, for sure.

1086
01:35:38,000 --> 01:35:39,708
And it's obviously like it's, you know,

1087
01:35:39,875 --> 01:35:41,375
labor. The problem with labors of love is

1088
01:35:41,375 --> 01:35:42,041
that labors of love don't pay the bills.

1089
01:35:43,416 --> 01:35:47,000
I mean, is this something that like do

1090
01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:50,791
people who publish these, these manuals

1091
01:35:50,791 --> 01:35:54,083
on the guild is it, can it be a business?

1092
01:35:54,333 --> 01:35:56,333
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like a revenue

1093
01:35:56,333 --> 01:35:58,166
generator for you, you think over time?

1094
01:35:59,250 --> 01:36:00,500
You know, I think the niche I'm working

1095
01:36:00,500 --> 01:36:02,458
in is so small that it probably won't

1096
01:36:02,458 --> 01:36:04,958
ever be a serious revenue generator. If

1097
01:36:04,958 --> 01:36:06,041
it breaks even, that'd be amazing.

1098
01:36:06,833 --> 01:36:09,708
Gotcha. Because, you know, if I can

1099
01:36:09,708 --> 01:36:12,000
predictably have these projects break

1100
01:36:12,000 --> 01:36:14,166
even, then I can commission new art and

1101
01:36:14,166 --> 01:36:16,083
invest the time into making the next one

1102
01:36:16,083 --> 01:36:17,541
without worrying too much.

1103
01:36:18,041 --> 01:36:20,125
For sure. There are absolutely people who

1104
01:36:20,125 --> 01:36:21,750
make a living just publishing D&D

1105
01:36:21,750 --> 01:36:23,666
modules. You know, there are professional

1106
01:36:23,666 --> 01:36:26,083
dungeon masters who their entire career

1107
01:36:26,083 --> 01:36:27,541
is running D&D campaigns.

1108
01:36:28,916 --> 01:36:30,458
And that sounds like an awful lot of fun.

1109
01:36:30,458 --> 01:36:31,041
I wouldn't mind doing that.

1110
01:36:31,333 --> 01:36:33,125
Wouldn't that be great? I mean, you write

1111
01:36:33,125 --> 01:36:35,166
them already. It's like, let's just make

1112
01:36:35,166 --> 01:36:36,125
a business out of it.

1113
01:36:36,291 --> 01:36:37,666
Yeah. I mean, it is a lot of work. Like

1114
01:36:37,666 --> 01:36:40,083
those guys are full on creatives in a way

1115
01:36:40,083 --> 01:36:43,000
that like I, I mean, you've described my

1116
01:36:43,000 --> 01:36:45,458
workload. It's I'm not a, I'm not

1117
01:36:45,458 --> 01:36:47,166
consistently focused on any one thing

1118
01:36:47,166 --> 01:36:48,041
long enough, I think, to

1119
01:36:48,041 --> 01:36:49,083
pull something like that off.

1120
01:36:49,083 --> 01:36:51,083
But there are some great people out there

1121
01:36:51,083 --> 01:36:52,166
that are putting together some amazing

1122
01:36:52,166 --> 01:36:54,166
campaigns. And, you know, some of the

1123
01:36:54,166 --> 01:36:55,583
other guys on the podcast, on the

1124
01:36:55,583 --> 01:36:57,041
DooGongs and Sea Dragon podcast have

1125
01:36:57,041 --> 01:36:59,791
published other educational supplements.

1126
01:37:00,083 --> 01:37:02,708
So there is a scientific secrets of the

1127
01:37:02,708 --> 01:37:04,000
salt marsh where they've turned real

1128
01:37:04,000 --> 01:37:09,541
ocean animals into D&D monsters with stat

1129
01:37:09,541 --> 01:37:11,458
blocks and little like lessons about

1130
01:37:11,458 --> 01:37:13,750
their behavior and ecology around that

1131
01:37:13,750 --> 01:37:16,791
scientific secrets of ice wind Dale,

1132
01:37:16,791 --> 01:37:18,083
which is all Arctic animals.

1133
01:37:19,875 --> 01:37:21,041
So there are, you know, there are other

1134
01:37:21,041 --> 01:37:22,166
ways to do it as well. And there's some

1135
01:37:22,166 --> 01:37:23,041
great resources out there.

1136
01:37:24,041 --> 01:37:25,500
That's amazing. Like, can you send me

1137
01:37:25,500 --> 01:37:26,708
some of those links? We'll put absolutely

1138
01:37:26,708 --> 01:37:28,250
show notes so that people can get access

1139
01:37:28,250 --> 01:37:30,000
to them because I want people to really

1140
01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:33,541
understand, you know, the value of what's

1141
01:37:33,541 --> 01:37:35,500
been put in, but also like the value of

1142
01:37:35,500 --> 01:37:38,125
the education tool that can be whether

1143
01:37:38,125 --> 01:37:39,708
you're a teacher or not, you know, you

1144
01:37:39,708 --> 01:37:40,916
just want to play with your family or

1145
01:37:40,916 --> 01:37:43,541
something or your friends or your kids

1146
01:37:43,541 --> 01:37:45,166
friends like that, like that, I think is

1147
01:37:45,166 --> 01:37:46,041
a great is a great idea.

1148
01:37:47,041 --> 01:37:49,166
Let's let's switch to the educational

1149
01:37:49,166 --> 01:37:52,000
aspect of an just like environmental

1150
01:37:52,000 --> 01:37:55,666
literacy in general. This is a great tool

1151
01:37:55,666 --> 01:37:57,333
and it may not work for everybody.

1152
01:37:57,541 --> 01:37:59,000
Obviously, it's it's it's a niche where

1153
01:37:59,000 --> 01:38:01,041
people who play the games, which probably

1154
01:38:01,041 --> 01:38:02,583
we're talking like millions of people

1155
01:38:02,583 --> 01:38:03,458
play Dungeons and

1156
01:38:03,458 --> 01:38:04,666
Dragons, right? Oh, yeah.

1157
01:38:05,041 --> 01:38:07,625
I mean, it's the most popular tabletop

1158
01:38:07,625 --> 01:38:09,625
role playing game in the world. Yeah,

1159
01:38:09,625 --> 01:38:11,375
probably I wouldn't be afraid to say

1160
01:38:11,375 --> 01:38:12,666
probably hundreds of millions at this

1161
01:38:12,666 --> 01:38:14,625
point. Right. Right. So there's there's a

1162
01:38:14,625 --> 01:38:15,041
lot of people to do this.

1163
01:38:16,041 --> 01:38:19,041
And like, I feel as though over

1164
01:38:19,041 --> 01:38:21,000
especially those last decade, we've

1165
01:38:21,000 --> 01:38:25,208
really seen just the lack of

1166
01:38:25,208 --> 01:38:27,875
environmental literacy from people in

1167
01:38:27,875 --> 01:38:30,291
general. Right. And that's had some

1168
01:38:30,291 --> 01:38:31,291
serious consequences

1169
01:38:31,291 --> 01:38:33,958
politically from a policy standpoint.

1170
01:38:34,041 --> 01:38:36,666
We've discussed it a number of times

1171
01:38:36,666 --> 01:38:39,083
through the number every time I think

1172
01:38:39,083 --> 01:38:42,166
you're on we kind of discuss it. Where do

1173
01:38:42,166 --> 01:38:44,875
you see, you know, people like yourself

1174
01:38:44,875 --> 01:38:48,750
people like me, David Shiffman and

1175
01:38:48,750 --> 01:38:51,083
everybody else who's involved people who

1176
01:38:51,083 --> 01:38:53,125
have podcasts and YouTube channels and,

1177
01:38:53,125 --> 01:38:55,875
you know, Dungeons and Dragons games and,

1178
01:38:56,166 --> 01:38:59,291
you know, everybody is trying to do their

1179
01:38:59,291 --> 01:39:01,083
their education in their own kind of

1180
01:39:01,083 --> 01:39:02,875
circles and in their own kind of

1181
01:39:02,875 --> 01:39:03,041
networks, whether it be on.

1182
01:39:04,041 --> 01:39:07,666
Online, whether it be locally. What do

1183
01:39:07,666 --> 01:39:10,875
you think we need to do as a collective

1184
01:39:10,875 --> 01:39:14,916
to really start to nail down this this

1185
01:39:14,916 --> 01:39:17,541
literacy for people? Yeah, so I think the

1186
01:39:17,541 --> 01:39:19,500
broader issue that we're all kind of

1187
01:39:19,500 --> 01:39:22,041
touching on is this idea of nature

1188
01:39:22,041 --> 01:39:25,750
deficit disorder, which is, you know,

1189
01:39:28,166 --> 01:39:29,708
and I hate doing the kids these days

1190
01:39:29,708 --> 01:39:31,208
thing because it's obviously not the kids

1191
01:39:31,208 --> 01:39:34,416
fault. Right. We have built a society in

1192
01:39:34,416 --> 01:39:36,125
certain parts of the world, certainly

1193
01:39:36,125 --> 01:39:37,291
certain parts of the developed world

1194
01:39:37,291 --> 01:39:40,166
where children don't have the same access

1195
01:39:40,166 --> 01:39:42,750
to wild spaces that even we did growing

1196
01:39:42,750 --> 01:39:46,000
up, you know, dare I say 40 years ago.

1197
01:39:48,166 --> 01:39:50,375
Um, you know, I live in a very rural

1198
01:39:50,375 --> 01:39:54,291
area. I live in the wood. I'm like, if

1199
01:39:54,291 --> 01:39:56,333
we're doing video here, I'm in an actual

1200
01:39:56,333 --> 01:39:58,000
log cabin in the middle of the woods

1201
01:39:58,000 --> 01:39:59,958
right now. Like, you know, my daughter,

1202
01:40:00,166 --> 01:40:02,291
her made a wood. My daughter raises

1203
01:40:02,291 --> 01:40:04,625
chickens. Right. And I grew up in

1204
01:40:04,625 --> 01:40:07,708
Baltimore City and I still remember

1205
01:40:07,708 --> 01:40:10,458
having much more access to large, like,

1206
01:40:10,458 --> 01:40:13,791
state parts, large green spaces that I,

1207
01:40:13,791 --> 01:40:14,750
you know, even out here.

1208
01:40:15,458 --> 01:40:17,208
I don't think my daughter has nearly the

1209
01:40:17,208 --> 01:40:20,291
same access to because she can't just hop

1210
01:40:20,291 --> 01:40:23,500
on a bike and ride 20 miles away the way

1211
01:40:23,500 --> 01:40:25,833
we used to. You know, the roads are less

1212
01:40:25,833 --> 01:40:28,666
friendly. They're not designed with

1213
01:40:28,666 --> 01:40:29,791
pedestrians in mind.

1214
01:40:30,583 --> 01:40:33,041
Um, you know, we've, we've stretched kids

1215
01:40:33,041 --> 01:40:35,375
out into the suburbs in a way that like

1216
01:40:35,375 --> 01:40:38,583
suburbs are kind of like, like the

1217
01:40:38,583 --> 01:40:42,166
graveyard of green spaces because they

1218
01:40:42,166 --> 01:40:44,750
not only do they deprive people of green

1219
01:40:44,750 --> 01:40:47,125
spaces by overbuilding and developing on

1220
01:40:47,125 --> 01:40:48,750
them, but then they also make it much

1221
01:40:48,750 --> 01:40:50,625
harder to get to the existing green

1222
01:40:50,625 --> 01:40:52,541
spaces because they sprawled you out in

1223
01:40:52,541 --> 01:40:54,958
these kinds of, you know, massive housing

1224
01:40:54,958 --> 01:40:56,458
complexes of private property.

1225
01:40:57,125 --> 01:40:58,875
Someone as someone who's worked, I've

1226
01:40:58,875 --> 01:41:00,500
worked as a private consultant for quite

1227
01:41:00,500 --> 01:41:02,583
a number of years and the amount of fight

1228
01:41:02,583 --> 01:41:05,000
that we had to do with developers on

1229
01:41:05,000 --> 01:41:07,166
keeping green spaces. Oh, yeah. And

1230
01:41:07,166 --> 01:41:09,250
making them large and just like on a just

1231
01:41:09,250 --> 01:41:12,125
a tree, like just a tree, keep a tree in

1232
01:41:12,125 --> 01:41:14,541
this one area. Yeah. But then we can make

1233
01:41:14,541 --> 01:41:16,250
so much more money if we take this tree

1234
01:41:16,250 --> 01:41:17,875
down. Like, it's, it's unreal. The

1235
01:41:17,875 --> 01:41:20,166
battles that you have to do in these

1236
01:41:20,166 --> 01:41:22,000
suburbs, suburban areas. Yeah. Well, and

1237
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:22,833
you know, you know, something like

1238
01:41:22,833 --> 01:41:24,625
Dungeons and Dragons adventure is not a

1239
01:41:24,625 --> 01:41:27,041
replacement for access to the woods, but it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a

1240
01:41:27,041 --> 01:41:27,250
activity. It means it means it means multiple living spaces,
which meant that it meant lots of living spaces, but it

1241
01:41:27,250 --> 01:41:30,125
is, it is in its own way a green space

1242
01:41:30,125 --> 01:41:33,750
that they always have access to. So it is

1243
01:41:33,750 --> 01:41:35,583
it. This provides a different tool for

1244
01:41:35,583 --> 01:41:37,583
engaging with nature. And, you know, you

1245
01:41:37,583 --> 01:41:39,000
know, one of the kind of tragic thoughts

1246
01:41:39,000 --> 01:41:40,375
that occurs to me every couple of months

1247
01:41:40,375 --> 01:41:42,875
is that like you know, Rachel Carson came

1248
01:41:42,875 --> 01:41:45,375
out with Silent Spring about d Verizon.

1249
01:41:45,375 --> 01:41:47,375
in the decline of brand populations. Her,

1250
01:41:47,750 --> 01:41:50,208
the central thesis was that we don't hear

1251
01:41:50,208 --> 01:41:52,666
bird songs as much as we used to anymore.

1252
01:41:53,000 --> 01:41:53,875
Uh, and that, that struck such a powerful cords thatmathis

1253
01:41:53,916 --> 01:41:57,041
And that struck such a powerful chord

1254
01:41:57,041 --> 01:41:58,791
that it fundamentally created the

1255
01:41:58,791 --> 01:41:59,708
environmental movement.

1256
01:42:00,666 --> 01:42:02,583
And I think about today, if you told kids

1257
01:42:02,583 --> 01:42:03,958
we were hearing less birdsongs,

1258
01:42:04,583 --> 01:42:07,083
would they, and not just kids, adults,

1259
01:42:07,083 --> 01:42:08,125
even more so adults,

1260
01:42:08,125 --> 01:42:09,625
if adults today heard,

1261
01:42:09,625 --> 01:42:11,208
"Oh, we're hearing less birdsongs in the

1262
01:42:11,208 --> 01:42:12,666
spring," would that be

1263
01:42:12,666 --> 01:42:14,958
something that has the same level

1264
01:42:14,958 --> 01:42:16,750
of emotional resonance, or are we so

1265
01:42:16,750 --> 01:42:18,000
disconnected just from the

1266
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:19,958
idea that we should be hearing

1267
01:42:20,041 --> 01:42:22,500
nature all the time, that it wouldn't

1268
01:42:22,500 --> 01:42:23,833
like hit the way that

1269
01:42:23,833 --> 01:42:25,666
Silent Spring hit in the 60s?

1270
01:42:26,125 --> 01:42:27,625
Yeah, no, it's true. I mean, there's that

1271
01:42:27,625 --> 01:42:29,791
sort of point of

1272
01:42:29,791 --> 01:42:31,583
reference that we have. You know,

1273
01:42:31,583 --> 01:42:33,000
there was a paper that was written a

1274
01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:34,875
number of years ago where they talked

1275
01:42:34,875 --> 01:42:36,250
about the people who

1276
01:42:36,291 --> 01:42:39,375
saw coral reefs back in the 60s have a

1277
01:42:39,375 --> 01:42:41,041
different idea of what coral, the people

1278
01:42:41,041 --> 01:42:41,708
now have a different

1279
01:42:41,708 --> 01:42:43,541
idea of corals compared to the people

1280
01:42:43,541 --> 01:42:44,125
that they saw in the

1281
01:42:44,125 --> 01:42:46,083
60s. And, but we don't know,

1282
01:42:46,125 --> 01:42:47,500
it's the frame of reference, we just

1283
01:42:47,500 --> 01:42:48,750
don't know what it looked

1284
01:42:48,750 --> 01:42:50,250
like, even our our generations

1285
01:42:50,375 --> 01:42:52,791
changed since since then. So if you play

1286
01:42:52,791 --> 01:42:53,666
if you play Last Time for

1287
01:42:53,666 --> 01:42:54,541
the Jabberwock, shifting

1288
01:42:54,541 --> 01:42:56,666
basslines is in there. And it's not in

1289
01:42:56,666 --> 01:42:58,166
there in an explicit way,

1290
01:42:58,166 --> 01:42:59,500
it's there in an implicit way.

1291
01:43:00,125 --> 01:43:01,708
As you meet different characters, they've

1292
01:43:01,708 --> 01:43:02,875
experienced the forest

1293
01:43:02,875 --> 01:43:05,125
through different time frames.

1294
01:43:05,958 --> 01:43:07,958
And so some people will say that the

1295
01:43:07,958 --> 01:43:08,875
forest is amazing and

1296
01:43:08,875 --> 01:43:10,458
doing great right now. And some

1297
01:43:10,458 --> 01:43:11,875
people will talk about how great it was

1298
01:43:11,875 --> 01:43:13,541
20 years ago. And you know,

1299
01:43:13,541 --> 01:43:14,791
it's D&D, you can have thousand

1300
01:43:14,875 --> 01:43:16,541
year old characters, they'll talk about,

1301
01:43:16,833 --> 01:43:18,666
you know, what it looks like 1000 years

1302
01:43:18,666 --> 01:43:19,458
ago, and the players

1303
01:43:19,458 --> 01:43:21,958
have to piece together like, what was the

1304
01:43:21,958 --> 01:43:22,833
natural state of this

1305
01:43:22,833 --> 01:43:25,125
forest, because the baseline has

1306
01:43:25,125 --> 01:43:27,083
shifted depending on who the observer is.

1307
01:43:27,500 --> 01:43:30,541
It's amazing. It's such a

1308
01:43:30,541 --> 01:43:32,083
such a good tool. It's such

1309
01:43:32,083 --> 01:43:34,333
a fun, it sounds like such a fun idea.

1310
01:43:35,500 --> 01:43:36,791
It's awesome. I've only

1311
01:43:36,791 --> 01:43:38,541
played it once. I wasn't

1312
01:43:38,541 --> 01:43:39,666
comfortable playing it took me out of my

1313
01:43:39,666 --> 01:43:41,458
comfort zone. I remember that

1314
01:43:41,458 --> 01:43:42,416
we kind of we kind of hacked

1315
01:43:42,458 --> 01:43:44,625
a game of cyberpunk into it at the same

1316
01:43:44,625 --> 01:43:46,416
time, because we were texting back and

1317
01:43:46,416 --> 01:43:48,000
forth while you were playing on stage.

1318
01:43:49,541 --> 01:43:51,375
But it was it but it's it's one of those

1319
01:43:51,375 --> 01:43:52,750
things I have a lot of respect for the

1320
01:43:52,750 --> 01:43:54,583
for it, because it's it's it

1321
01:43:54,583 --> 01:43:56,166
it does it puts you in that creative

1322
01:43:56,166 --> 01:43:57,958
mode. And if you're not ready for it,

1323
01:43:57,958 --> 01:43:58,958
you're not ready for it.

1324
01:43:58,958 --> 01:44:00,291
Right. But I think as you play it more

1325
01:44:00,291 --> 01:44:02,000
and more, and just kind of make sure that

1326
01:44:02,000 --> 01:44:02,833
you can like for me

1327
01:44:02,833 --> 01:44:03,500
is like, you got to be

1328
01:44:03,500 --> 01:44:06,541
a, you got to be and obviously, this was

1329
01:44:06,541 --> 01:44:07,541
in front of a stage of

1330
01:44:07,541 --> 01:44:08,750
people. So it's a little bit more.

1331
01:44:08,750 --> 01:44:10,333
Yeah, you got thrown into the deep end.

1332
01:44:10,333 --> 01:44:11,750
You didn't just play a game of Dungeons

1333
01:44:11,750 --> 01:44:13,541
and Dragons. You played a game of

1334
01:44:13,541 --> 01:44:15,416
Dungeons and Dragons in public on a

1335
01:44:15,416 --> 01:44:16,958
stage, having heard about

1336
01:44:16,958 --> 01:44:18,250
it an hour and a half ago.

1337
01:44:19,958 --> 01:44:21,166
It was a little, it was a little bit

1338
01:44:21,166 --> 01:44:23,625
quick. But now with that said, with that

1339
01:44:23,625 --> 01:44:25,875
said, what you did is continuing on

1340
01:44:25,875 --> 01:44:28,125
today. Like true. You laid a foundation

1341
01:44:28,125 --> 01:44:29,708
that has has transcended.

1342
01:44:29,750 --> 01:44:34,583
I mean, it's it's a D&D podcast has been

1343
01:44:34,583 --> 01:44:37,125
running for six years now. Yeah, yeah.

1344
01:44:37,125 --> 01:44:40,041
And I like it was fun. I had a good time.

1345
01:44:40,041 --> 01:44:41,833
But I should say that Melissa Marquez

1346
01:44:41,833 --> 01:44:44,500
learned just as fast as I did. And she

1347
01:44:44,500 --> 01:44:47,125
kicked butt in the storytelling compared

1348
01:44:47,125 --> 01:44:49,291
to what what I was doing. It was it was

1349
01:44:49,291 --> 01:44:51,208
she got into it. And she was she was

1350
01:44:51,208 --> 01:44:52,541
great. We were joking about it. But she

1351
01:44:52,541 --> 01:44:55,458
did a phenomenal, phenomenal job.

1352
01:44:55,500 --> 01:44:57,500
So she's a natural born storyteller. I

1353
01:44:57,500 --> 01:44:58,791
mean, her the children's book, she's been

1354
01:44:58,791 --> 01:45:00,333
putting out her excellent. My kids got

1355
01:45:00,333 --> 01:45:02,500
all of them. Yeah, yeah, it's it's

1356
01:45:02,500 --> 01:45:03,875
unreal. It's there. They're there.

1357
01:45:03,875 --> 01:45:06,791
They're a lot of fun. I love this, this

1358
01:45:06,791 --> 01:45:08,291
aspect. So this is something that's going

1359
01:45:08,291 --> 01:45:10,750
to continue on for a little bit. This

1360
01:45:10,750 --> 01:45:12,541
story is already up there. People can

1361
01:45:12,541 --> 01:45:13,833
download it. We're going to put the links

1362
01:45:13,833 --> 01:45:15,375
in the show notes that people can get

1363
01:45:15,375 --> 01:45:17,625
access to it. Andrew, it's always a

1364
01:45:17,625 --> 01:45:20,041
pleasure to have you on, you know, he's

1365
01:45:20,041 --> 01:45:21,666
like, Hey, do you want to talk about D&D

1366
01:45:21,666 --> 01:45:23,666
on the podcast? Like, yes, I think what I

1367
01:45:23,666 --> 01:45:25,458
actually said is please for the love of

1368
01:45:25,500 --> 01:45:28,250
what of whichever D&D you believe in. Can

1369
01:45:28,250 --> 01:45:30,083
we talk about something not American

1370
01:45:30,083 --> 01:45:33,416
politics? Yes, I just want to talk about

1371
01:45:33,416 --> 01:45:36,166
something different. Yes, let's put on a

1372
01:45:36,166 --> 01:45:37,291
positive stage. And to be honest, I've

1373
01:45:37,291 --> 01:45:38,333
been talking a lot about it on the

1374
01:45:38,333 --> 01:45:40,500
podcast. Oh, yeah, political. And so now

1375
01:45:40,500 --> 01:45:42,000
it's nice to just be like, Hey, look,

1376
01:45:42,000 --> 01:45:44,416
there's, there's a need for different

1377
01:45:44,416 --> 01:45:47,208
educational tools to really increase our

1378
01:45:47,208 --> 01:45:49,458
environmental literacy. This is a great

1379
01:45:49,458 --> 01:45:51,208
way of doing it. Obviously, hundreds of

1380
01:45:51,208 --> 01:45:52,458
millions of people are playing it around

1381
01:45:52,458 --> 01:45:53,750
the world. And this is

1382
01:45:53,750 --> 01:45:55,458
something that we can tap into.

1383
01:45:55,500 --> 01:45:58,458
And so I highly recommend that people

1384
01:45:58,458 --> 01:46:01,291
support not only Andrews efforts in this,

1385
01:46:01,291 --> 01:46:04,458
but also the ability to, you know, grow

1386
01:46:04,458 --> 01:46:06,958
environmental literacy through this D&D

1387
01:46:06,958 --> 01:46:09,000
game. So he just said the title one more

1388
01:46:09,000 --> 01:46:11,500
time. So the title is the last hunt for

1389
01:46:11,500 --> 01:46:14,000
the Jabber walk, a Feywild adventure and

1390
01:46:14,000 --> 01:46:16,666
ecological succession. There's also a map

1391
01:46:16,666 --> 01:46:18,708
pack if you want full size maps for the

1392
01:46:18,708 --> 01:46:21,125
players to play on if you do playing D&D

1393
01:46:21,125 --> 01:46:23,750
with miniatures. And I'll give you a link

1394
01:46:23,750 --> 01:46:24,958
with a discount code in it

1395
01:46:24,958 --> 01:46:25,458
too. So you can go to D&D.com.

1396
01:46:25,500 --> 01:46:26,916
Get a little bit, little bit off the

1397
01:46:26,916 --> 01:46:29,666
price. Take care of the absolutely. This

1398
01:46:29,666 --> 01:46:31,791
is awesome. Alright, Andrew, thank you so

1399
01:46:31,791 --> 01:46:33,833
much for joining us. It's always a

1400
01:46:33,833 --> 01:46:35,708
pleasure. And can't wait to talk to you

1401
01:46:35,708 --> 01:46:37,916
next time. I'm looking forward to it. All

1402
01:46:37,916 --> 01:46:40,000
right. All right, thank you. Thank you,

1403
01:46:40,000 --> 01:46:42,166
Andrew, for joining us on this episode of

1404
01:46:42,166 --> 01:46:43,208
the how to protect the ocean. It's always

1405
01:46:43,208 --> 01:46:44,416
great to have you come on because you

1406
01:46:44,416 --> 01:46:47,041
always do these creative projects that,

1407
01:46:47,041 --> 01:46:48,750
you know, are not like regular projects

1408
01:46:48,750 --> 01:46:51,083
that we see around the world. You bring

1409
01:46:51,083 --> 01:46:52,500
them to us every single time. And it's

1410
01:46:52,500 --> 01:46:53,458
always unique. It's

1411
01:46:53,458 --> 01:46:55,083
always fun. And they're always

1412
01:46:55,500 --> 01:46:58,125
like, I gotta say like genius. They're

1413
01:46:58,125 --> 01:47:00,291
brilliant in terms of getting people to

1414
01:47:00,291 --> 01:47:02,625
understand and make yourself aware of the

1415
01:47:02,625 --> 01:47:04,291
environment and beefing up our

1416
01:47:04,291 --> 01:47:06,250
environmental literacy for people which

1417
01:47:06,250 --> 01:47:09,000
we know is really low right now. And so I

1418
01:47:09,000 --> 01:47:11,208
love the fact that you're using Dungeons

1419
01:47:11,208 --> 01:47:12,750
and Dragons as a game, not only with your

1420
01:47:12,750 --> 01:47:14,333
family, but not only at your local

1421
01:47:14,333 --> 01:47:16,583
library, but you use it, you know, on a

1422
01:47:16,583 --> 01:47:19,000
podcast and that gets published to like a

1423
01:47:19,000 --> 01:47:21,000
lot of different listeners for anybody

1424
01:47:21,000 --> 01:47:23,000
who wants it. We'll put that link to the

1425
01:47:23,000 --> 01:47:23,666
Dungeons and Dragons

1426
01:47:23,666 --> 01:47:25,458
game and the podcast. And

1427
01:47:25,500 --> 01:47:28,041
you know, now you do it for teachers so

1428
01:47:28,041 --> 01:47:29,625
that they can pick it up and grab it. So

1429
01:47:29,625 --> 01:47:31,791
I highly recommend that people go and

1430
01:47:31,791 --> 01:47:33,000
grab if you're interested in playing

1431
01:47:33,000 --> 01:47:34,541
Dungeons and Dragons. And if you've

1432
01:47:34,541 --> 01:47:35,625
played Dungeons and Dragons before, you

1433
01:47:35,625 --> 01:47:36,625
know where to go. But I'm going to put

1434
01:47:36,625 --> 01:47:39,000
the link in the show notes below this

1435
01:47:39,000 --> 01:47:40,541
episode. If you're on YouTube or if

1436
01:47:40,541 --> 01:47:41,916
you're on Spotify, this can be in the

1437
01:47:41,916 --> 01:47:43,416
show notes. If you're listening to this

1438
01:47:43,416 --> 01:47:45,125
on any kind of podcast app, or you can go

1439
01:47:45,125 --> 01:47:47,666
to speakupforblue.com and the link to the

1440
01:47:47,666 --> 01:47:49,458
show on our website is on the show notes.

1441
01:47:49,458 --> 01:47:50,750
So you can go right there and you can

1442
01:47:50,750 --> 01:47:53,458
download it. This is a fun way to learn

1443
01:47:53,458 --> 01:47:54,375
about the environment.

1444
01:47:54,375 --> 01:47:55,458
It could be expanded.

1445
01:47:55,500 --> 01:48:09,416
It's a great way to learn and I think

1446
01:48:09,416 --> 01:48:12,125
it's just a fun way to enjoy it. So go to

1447
01:48:12,125 --> 01:48:12,500
the show notes, download it, try it out. I'd love to hear what you think and so would Andrew. Let me know in the comments below. And also if
you want to get a hold of me, you can do so at Instagram. The handle is at how to protect the ocean. So you can go just DM me on Instagram.

1448
01:48:25,500 --> 01:48:27,291
I love to hear your thoughts on this. And

1449
01:48:27,291 --> 01:48:29,125
don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube

1450
01:48:29,125 --> 01:48:30,541
channel. Hit that notification bell so

1451
01:48:30,541 --> 01:48:32,208
you get every episode Monday, Wednesday

1452
01:48:32,208 --> 01:48:34,666
and Friday. And as well, you can go

1453
01:48:34,666 --> 01:48:36,500
subscribe to your favorite podcast app or

1454
01:48:36,500 --> 01:48:38,541
go to speakupforblue.com forward slash

1455
01:48:38,541 --> 01:48:40,583
podcast to see every episode or watch

1456
01:48:40,583 --> 01:48:42,375
every episode and listen to every episode

1457
01:48:42,375 --> 01:48:44,291
of this how to protect the ocean podcast.

1458
01:48:44,750 --> 01:48:45,750
Thank you so much for joining me on

1459
01:48:45,750 --> 01:48:47,541
today's episode. I'm your host, Andrew

1460
01:48:47,541 --> 01:48:48,875
Lewin. Have a great day. We'll talk to

1461
01:48:48,875 --> 01:48:50,166
you next time and have a conservation.