How Storytelling Connects People and Climate Change

Transcript

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Today's episode is the reason why I

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started this podcast is to provide a

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platform for people to

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tell their stories and today

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We're gonna be talking about storytelling

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not just storytelling

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in general for the ocean

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But storytelling for different

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communities and how they're being

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affected by the climate crisis

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I have on the podcast today towel leg off

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who has a book called dark laboratory on

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Columbus the Caribbean and

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the origins of the climate

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Crisis, it's a fantastic book. I'm

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looking forward to diving into it

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how comes on and

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talks about her journey of

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Not only being a pre-med student in

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university, but also

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looking at humanities

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Looking at natural sciences and really

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changing her course of life to help tell

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people stories. It's an amazing interview

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It's one of the one of my favorites

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already so far in my 10 years of doing

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this and I can't wait for you listen to

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It so that's what we're gonna be talking

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about on today's episode of the how to

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protect the ocean

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podcast. Let's start the show

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Hey everybody, welcome back to another

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exciting episode of the how

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to protect the ocean podcast

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I'm your host Andrew Lewin

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And this is the podcast where you find

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out what's happening with the ocean how

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you can speak up for

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the ocean and what you can

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Do to live for a better ocean

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By taking action on today's episode. I've

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got a great one for you

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We have towel a golf dr

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Towel a golf and she has she's on the

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podcast talking about a new book that she

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published just about a week ago from this

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recording called dark laboratory on

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Columbus the Caribbean and on the origins

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of the climate crisis

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It's a phenomenal book a phenomenal. I

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can't wait to dive into it

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She talks a lot about just sort of how

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different communities are affected by the

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climate crisis and going back in history

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Knowing the history and how this has

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affected these different types of

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communities all over the

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world island communities

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nylon communities like land-based

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communities like like continental

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communities just how

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they're affected and how

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they treated science and

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environment and economy and

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success as a community compared to

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Western science and Western communities

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It is one of my

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favorite interviews so far

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I know I'm biased because I'm part of

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this interview, but how just just brings

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the heat we we connected a lot over

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I love for hip-hop we connect a lot over.

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I love for storytelling and podcasting

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And just sort of internet storytelling

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and democratizing

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storytelling. It is a phenomenal time

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I had a great time and I'm still like

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this is I'm just we just hung up and we

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talked a lot afterwards

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Tell us it was just phenomenal person.

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I'm looking forward to getting to know

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where I'm looking

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forward for you to gain to know

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We're in this interview and I've invited

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her back on so I can't wait for you to

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see the next conversation that we have

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But I don't want to delay any further

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Here is the interview with Talley and dr

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Talley golf talking about her book dark

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laboratory on Columbus the Caribbean and

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the origins of the climate crisis

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Enjoy the interview and I will talk to

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you after hey, Tal welcome to the how to

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protect the ocean podcast

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Are you ready to talk

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about climate and people?

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Hey Andrew, yes, I am ready. I'm ecstatic

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because my book dark

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laboratory just came out a week ago

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still on cloud nine

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It's really in disbelief

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that I'm a published author

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Here's the book. The subtitle is on

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Columbus the Caribbean and the

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origins of the climate crisis

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There's a lot of water in this book. So

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I'm excited to see what you

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thought and to kind of just

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Discuss all of these really urgent issues

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when it comes to climate action

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Absolutely. Yes, this is gonna be I'm

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really excited this

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because before we press record

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I was telling you like this is not a

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topic that I get to talk about a lot

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It's not covered on

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sort of like the mainstream

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Social science or science is talked about

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but it's not talked about enough

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And so it's really great that you have

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dedicated your research your life to this

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You've lived through some of this as well

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and and seeing other people live through

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this and it's it's

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great to be able to talk

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about this type of topic climate and

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especially people and

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How we react to climate action how we are

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supposed to react and how some

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of us seem powerless to react

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To certain climate action and if we have

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the ability to do so

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So I'm really excited to talk about you

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know, the entire journey

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But before we do why don't you just let

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us know who you are and what you do

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Sure. So I'm an associate professor at

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Hunter College. I teach in the

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environmental humanities

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so we are looking at the huge scale of

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Geographies and ecologies but very much

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through a human-centered point of view

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So it's exciting to have come on this

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journey and to have written this book

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that is so informed

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by the natural sciences

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But I was trained in literature at

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Princeton University as an undergrad

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Though I was also taking biology classes

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and have always had a

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deep love for science

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I did my PhD in American studies and that really informed the way that

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Intellectually this book came into being

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because within American

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studies which is a mixture of

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cultural historical analysis etc. We

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often think about an

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oceanic frame of history

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So yeah, there's just a lot of different

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oceans that brought me here as a professor

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And I love teaching at Hunter College,

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which is part of the City University of

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New York and Manhattan

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So I teach classes there related to this

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book on climate crisis and racial justice

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It's really interesting. It's quite

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fascinating to be honest to be able to

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talk about this because a lot of people

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when we talk about ocean conservation

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We talk about climate crisis and oceans

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We think about the consequences that the ocean brings us in these times

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We think about the flooding we think

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about the sea level rise we think about

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the intense storms and

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typhoons and hurricanes

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Tsunamis and earthquakes and so forth

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But we don't really talk about how it

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affects people in general and and how

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certain areas and certain countries

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Benefit more or or or don't benefit less, you know, like in terms of they don't feel it as much as other countries

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And and you know with North America even

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in the US as you you study American

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You know American studies and humanities

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you look at it's such a melting pot and

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such a history there of just

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different people coming over

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In different waves right at different

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times. Sometimes it's

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it's by choice other times

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It wasn't by choice and

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there's a there's a lot of

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Like I said, I think that's a really interesting question There's a lot of things that we've seen

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and I think that's a really interesting

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question. There's a lot of things that

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we've seen and I think that's a really interesting question.

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This is a very unique path to take.

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A lot of people are like,

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"Well, I like water, I like biology.

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I'm gonna go into, be a marine biologist,

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I'll be a wildlife biologist,

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or an oceanographer,

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or a climate scientist."

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And as you mentioned, you had,

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you always had that

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type of passion for animals

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and for nature and so forth.

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But what led you to go

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towards the humanities route,

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you know, with natural science, you know,

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like skimming on both sides,

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and then diving in on

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your PhD for humanities?

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What led you to that, like in your

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childhood and so forth?

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I feel that there's just such an absence

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in the way that people

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teach literature traditionally

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with great American

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novels like Moby Dick,

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without recognizing that

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this is a climate novel,

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that the whale matters and

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we think about conservation.

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What about the, yeah, the different

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indigenous communities

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that are part of the

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cast of a book like that?

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What about the whaling industry?

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So I feel like it's really inseparable,

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and yet in so many

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English literature classrooms,

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they separate that part out.

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So I really want to do

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this work interdisciplinarily

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to bring everyone into the conversation,

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because we have a shared fate in the

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sense of the climate crisis.

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Whichever country we're

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in, whichever continent,

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we're all going to meet the

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same fate, a planetary fate.

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So I just feel that we need to come

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together to find many different solutions

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from many different cultures.

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So I do that by looking to my family

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history and by encouraging others to look

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to their family histories as well,

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in order to contend with migration and

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how it is that we ended up on these

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shores if we're not indigenous to the

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place where we're living.

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So yeah, I feel like I've learned a lot

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from scholars in Canada.

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I've learned a lot from indigenous

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scholars across the globe,

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especially in the Pacific.

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And there's a really fascinating oceans

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back movement, which

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has really inspired me.

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And I just want to, I guess, give people

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permission to think back in their family

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tree about who their ancestors were and

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what were the ecologies that surrounded

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them, that protected them and that they

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protected because I feel that we have a

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responsibility to protect the earth and

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that includes the oceans.

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So really, it was just thinking about my

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ancestors that that led me on this

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journey to look into the humanities as a

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way to tell this climate story.

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Fascinating. When when you started to

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look down this journey, did your parents,

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did your friends be

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like, what are you doing?

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Like, you can't make

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a living off of this.

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Like, I have to admit, like I, my

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01:10:20,708 --> 01:10:23,208
daughter, so my wife is a woman, and I'm like, I'm not a woman.

280
01:10:24,208 --> 01:10:24,625
The only thing that I can do is is

281
01:10:24,625 --> 01:10:27,000
Chinese descent and her parents are from

282
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:29,333
Hong Kong and Taiwan. They're very, you

283
01:10:29,333 --> 01:10:30,833
know, they're very literal, right? Like,

284
01:10:30,833 --> 01:10:32,041
you know, you're being brought up, they

285
01:10:32,041 --> 01:10:33,416
want to make sure that you're financially

286
01:10:33,416 --> 01:10:35,500
safe when you grow up and you want it.

287
01:10:35,500 --> 01:10:37,041
So my daughter wants to be a wildlife

288
01:10:37,041 --> 01:10:39,083
biologist and she's like, she tells them

289
01:10:39,083 --> 01:10:40,333
that and they're like, well, can you make

290
01:10:40,333 --> 01:10:42,208
money off of that? Like, why don't you be

291
01:10:42,208 --> 01:10:43,208
like a pharmacist? Why don't you be like a doctor or something?

292
01:10:43,208 --> 01:10:46,375
And it's very interesting to see, you

293
01:10:46,375 --> 01:10:48,291
know, that not the pressure, but sort of

294
01:10:48,291 --> 01:10:49,500
that I want to take care, I want to make

295
01:10:49,500 --> 01:10:51,250
sure you're taking care of where you can

296
01:10:51,250 --> 01:10:53,083
take care of yourself financially because

297
01:10:53,083 --> 01:10:55,333
that's really important in the Asian

298
01:10:55,333 --> 01:10:57,625
culture is to make sure that the next

299
01:10:57,625 --> 01:10:59,708
generation is taking care of.

300
01:10:59,708 --> 01:11:01,250
Right? That's one thing that I've learned

301
01:11:01,250 --> 01:11:03,708
from this. What did your parents say when

302
01:11:03,708 --> 01:11:05,250
you start to go down this avenue, you

303
01:11:05,250 --> 01:11:06,750
know, looking at literature, but looking

304
01:11:06,750 --> 01:11:07,625
also in the natural

305
01:11:07,625 --> 01:11:08,208
sciences and how it's all related.

306
01:11:08,250 --> 01:11:12,541
It's not, you know, it's not a profession

307
01:11:12,541 --> 01:11:15,291
that you hear about in elementary school

308
01:11:15,291 --> 01:11:17,583
or even in high school in some ways. What

309
01:11:17,583 --> 01:11:19,041
were the reactions? I'm curious.

310
01:11:20,458 --> 01:11:22,041
I think they were always proud and they

311
01:11:22,041 --> 01:11:24,208
set me on his path. My mother is a

312
01:11:24,208 --> 01:11:28,708
doctor. So she definitely, you know,

313
01:11:29,333 --> 01:11:32,416
wanted us to go into the sciences. So in

314
01:11:32,416 --> 01:11:35,083
a way, I feel that even though I was

315
01:11:35,083 --> 01:11:37,208
premed and I didn't follow through on that path, I was like, I'm not going to do that.

316
01:11:38,208 --> 01:11:40,291
So much of what I'm doing is still

317
01:11:40,291 --> 01:11:42,583
informed by a love of biology in

318
01:11:42,583 --> 01:11:46,500
particular. And yeah, my dad has written

319
01:11:46,500 --> 01:11:48,666
books about our family history. So I

320
01:11:48,666 --> 01:11:50,625
think that that really gave me a sense in

321
01:11:50,625 --> 01:11:52,208
which this is work

322
01:11:52,208 --> 01:11:54,208
that you can choose to do.

323
01:11:54,583 --> 01:11:56,541
And you can go into the historical

324
01:11:56,541 --> 01:11:59,833
archives and find out where you came

325
01:11:59,833 --> 01:12:02,500
from. And in part, that research has led

326
01:12:02,500 --> 01:12:06,250
to Jamaica. And once you look at an

327
01:12:06,250 --> 01:12:08,208
island like Jamaica, that was part of the

328
01:12:08,208 --> 01:12:09,625
British Empire, it

329
01:12:09,625 --> 01:12:10,916
takes you across the globe.

330
01:12:11,333 --> 01:12:15,708
So even if we think about Nova Scotia,

331
01:12:16,041 --> 01:12:19,000
closer to where you are, there were

332
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:23,083
maroon people who were brought there and

333
01:12:23,083 --> 01:12:25,041
fascinating histories to

334
01:12:25,041 --> 01:12:28,208
contend with regarding salt cod.

335
01:12:28,250 --> 01:12:31,791
So it's just endless the kinds of ways in

336
01:12:31,791 --> 01:12:34,583
which we can think about family history,

337
01:12:34,916 --> 01:12:38,541
commercial histories. That journey also

338
01:12:38,541 --> 01:12:41,583
led me to Hong Kong, I guess where some

339
01:12:41,583 --> 01:12:43,208
of your wife's family is from.

340
01:12:43,208 --> 01:12:46,375
And I think places like Taiwan and Hong

341
01:12:46,375 --> 01:12:49,458
Kong being islands, they have a deep

342
01:12:49,458 --> 01:12:52,416
understanding of what it means to

343
01:12:52,416 --> 01:12:54,583
survive. So I can understand that they

344
01:12:54,583 --> 01:12:58,750
want to be encouraging the youth to

345
01:12:58,750 --> 01:13:00,875
pursue law or medicine.

346
01:13:01,666 --> 01:13:04,583
But there are other forms of survival

347
01:13:04,583 --> 01:13:07,583
that people who have lived on islands for

348
01:13:07,583 --> 01:13:10,791
generation are aware of. So this book for

349
01:13:10,791 --> 01:13:14,083
me really is about looking into those

350
01:13:14,083 --> 01:13:17,000
scientific traditions that may have been

351
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:20,000
lost or discredited over

352
01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:21,541
the years by Western Science.

353
01:13:22,333 --> 01:13:25,125
So yeah, it's a book about Jamaica, Hong

354
01:13:25,125 --> 01:13:27,458
Kong, really all of these different

355
01:13:27,458 --> 01:13:29,541
islands and people that I've learned from

356
01:13:29,541 --> 01:13:32,333
geologists, bird watchers,

357
01:13:32,541 --> 01:13:35,583
ornithologists. So yeah,

358
01:13:35,583 --> 01:13:38,000
it's full of all of that.

359
01:13:38,375 --> 01:13:40,416
I love it. I love it now. I have this

360
01:13:40,416 --> 01:13:43,416
interesting story. So I had a colleague,

361
01:13:43,416 --> 01:13:45,333
a mentor of mine, who was from

362
01:13:45,333 --> 01:13:47,000
Newfoundland, another island, right? They

363
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:48,708
called it the rock. And she was telling

364
01:13:48,708 --> 01:13:49,416
me a story. She went

365
01:13:49,416 --> 01:13:50,458
to Jamaica at one point.

366
01:13:51,250 --> 01:13:54,583
And she she she was at a restaurant, not

367
01:13:54,583 --> 01:13:56,000
at a hotel restaurant, but at a

368
01:13:56,000 --> 01:13:59,458
restaurant in a local town. And the

369
01:13:59,458 --> 01:14:01,208
waitress and her just got along really,

370
01:14:01,416 --> 01:14:03,041
really well. And even the waitress, like

371
01:14:03,041 --> 01:14:04,291
it's really, it's really cool. She's

372
01:14:04,291 --> 01:14:05,291
like, she's like, where are

373
01:14:05,291 --> 01:14:06,333
you from? You're from Canada.

374
01:14:06,333 --> 01:14:07,541
She's like, usually I get along well with

375
01:14:07,541 --> 01:14:09,083
canes, but I don't get along this well.

376
01:14:09,083 --> 01:14:12,375
And and and she said, she, Colleen, was

377
01:14:12,375 --> 01:14:13,791
her name. She says, you know what it is?

378
01:14:13,791 --> 01:14:15,625
Like, I'm from an island as well. And

379
01:14:15,625 --> 01:14:17,416
it's like people on islands, they know

380
01:14:17,416 --> 01:14:18,750
each other. They get along because

381
01:14:18,750 --> 01:14:20,208
they've felt the same struggles.

382
01:14:20,208 --> 01:14:22,750
They felt the same happiness. They felt

383
01:14:22,750 --> 01:14:25,000
the same kind of it's although, you know,

384
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:26,291
Jamaica and Newfoundland are very

385
01:14:26,291 --> 01:14:27,333
different climates, very different

386
01:14:27,333 --> 01:14:29,500
people. There's this laid backness a

387
01:14:29,500 --> 01:14:31,500
little bit, like it's similar in terms of

388
01:14:31,500 --> 01:14:34,375
the way they they live and the way they

389
01:14:34,375 --> 01:14:35,708
go about their day and

390
01:14:35,708 --> 01:14:36,958
their outlook on life.

391
01:14:36,958 --> 01:14:38,875
And I think when you mentioned that you

392
01:14:38,875 --> 01:14:40,125
talked about all these different islands

393
01:14:40,125 --> 01:14:42,250
having the same sort of struggles and the

394
01:14:42,250 --> 01:14:44,125
same sort of challenges, they also have

395
01:14:44,125 --> 01:14:45,500
the same kind of way. And they feel like

396
01:14:45,500 --> 01:14:48,208
they they get along quite well, for the most part, when they go.

397
01:14:48,208 --> 01:14:50,791
So I just want to share that because I

398
01:14:50,791 --> 01:14:52,000
thought that was kind of a cool story.

399
01:14:52,500 --> 01:14:53,833
Totally. Thank you for sharing that

400
01:14:53,833 --> 01:14:56,375
because I did not know that they call it

401
01:14:56,375 --> 01:14:58,666
the rock. Yeah, they call Jamaica the

402
01:14:58,666 --> 01:15:01,250
rock. That's what we'll call it. Yeah. So

403
01:15:01,250 --> 01:15:04,416
even like, welcome to Jamrock. Yeah, the

404
01:15:04,416 --> 01:15:07,458
song from a while back. Like, it's it's

405
01:15:07,458 --> 01:15:10,333
such a huge mountainous island made from

406
01:15:10,333 --> 01:15:14,291
volcanoes that. Yeah, it's the rock. So

407
01:15:14,291 --> 01:15:15,208
there it is. It's all ideology.

408
01:15:15,208 --> 01:15:17,666
That's probably what it is. It's all the

409
01:15:17,666 --> 01:15:19,958
geology. That's that's the fascinating

410
01:15:19,958 --> 01:15:23,541
thing too, right? Is your your your tying

411
01:15:23,541 --> 01:15:25,708
science to humanities and a lot of times,

412
01:15:25,708 --> 01:15:28,916
especially these days, we separate out,

413
01:15:28,916 --> 01:15:30,583
as you mentioned, we separate out the

414
01:15:30,583 --> 01:15:33,375
environment aspect of our lives. You

415
01:15:33,375 --> 01:15:34,791
know, especially when it comes to

416
01:15:34,791 --> 01:15:38,833
competing challenges. So like you look at

417
01:15:38,833 --> 01:15:40,791
economy and the environment, you can't

418
01:15:40,791 --> 01:15:42,166
have the good economy without the

419
01:15:42,166 --> 01:15:44,208
environment, especially in like places like Canada, the US, where we can have the environment.

420
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:55,333
You can have the environment, especially

421
01:15:55,333 --> 01:15:58,041
in these days, is affecting the economy

422
01:15:58,041 --> 01:15:59,958
more and more as we as we grow these

423
01:15:59,958 --> 01:16:01,666
these consequences that we're facing

424
01:16:01,666 --> 01:16:03,916
these these disaster natural disasters

425
01:16:03,916 --> 01:16:05,208
that we're facing that are getting worse and worse. That costs money to clean up that costs money for restitution and so forth. And at one point relocation, it's some other places that are getting worse and worse.

426
01:16:12,666 --> 01:16:15,333
They're going through to they've already

427
01:16:15,333 --> 01:16:17,791
gone through relocation small island

428
01:16:17,791 --> 01:16:20,208
states, especially in the Pacific. And it's really interesting because you look at and I know more from learning about indigenous populations here in Canada, where environment and even like success was tied together, whether it's prosperity in terms of what it's going through.

429
01:16:20,500 --> 01:16:22,250
And it's really interesting because you

430
01:16:22,250 --> 01:16:25,666
look at and I know more from learning

431
01:16:25,666 --> 01:16:27,541
about indigenous populations here in

432
01:16:27,541 --> 01:16:30,708
Canada, where environment and even like

433
01:16:30,708 --> 01:16:34,125
success was tied together, whether it's

434
01:16:34,125 --> 01:16:36,250
prosperity in terms of money or

435
01:16:36,250 --> 01:16:37,166
prosperity in terms of

436
01:16:37,166 --> 01:16:38,208
like a village prospering.

437
01:16:38,250 --> 01:16:40,916
They were tied together like they are

438
01:16:40,916 --> 01:16:44,250
they continue to be still the keepers of

439
01:16:44,250 --> 01:16:45,583
the land, you know, that's this turtle

440
01:16:45,583 --> 01:16:47,916
island that we that we live on and it's

441
01:16:47,916 --> 01:16:50,375
it's really impeccable and it seems to me

442
01:16:50,375 --> 01:16:53,125
that more scientists are and so

443
01:16:53,125 --> 01:16:55,416
especially social scientists are when

444
01:16:55,416 --> 01:16:56,750
they we talk about conservation of the

445
01:16:56,750 --> 01:16:59,208
ocean is going back to that mixture of.

446
01:16:59,208 --> 01:17:03,750
You know, indigenous knowledge and and

447
01:17:03,750 --> 01:17:05,041
like almost like you can almost say

448
01:17:05,041 --> 01:17:07,541
indigenous science and knowledge and

449
01:17:07,541 --> 01:17:09,916
Western science to tie the technology

450
01:17:09,916 --> 01:17:12,583
together to help so that they you know

451
01:17:12,583 --> 01:17:14,041
everybody can be on the same playing

452
01:17:14,041 --> 01:17:16,250
field but we have a lot to learn like

453
01:17:16,250 --> 01:17:17,458
Westerners have a lot to

454
01:17:17,458 --> 01:17:18,208
learn from our indigenous

455
01:17:18,208 --> 01:17:21,125
brother and sister and right like that's

456
01:17:21,125 --> 01:17:23,916
that's a big thing but why is it that we

457
01:17:23,916 --> 01:17:25,875
continue, why do you think is we continue

458
01:17:25,875 --> 01:17:28,416
to separate this out from like the

459
01:17:28,416 --> 01:17:29,875
environment and just sort of like our

460
01:17:29,875 --> 01:17:32,208
regular humanities or, you know, how we

461
01:17:32,208 --> 01:17:33,583
succeed in life here.

462
01:17:40,250 --> 01:17:41,583
I think it's a great book and it's a

463
01:17:41,583 --> 01:17:43,875
trade book I was really excited that

464
01:17:43,875 --> 01:17:46,375
penguin Random House would get the

465
01:17:46,375 --> 01:17:48,708
distribution to be across the world.

466
01:17:49,291 --> 01:17:51,208
Yeah, and especially the Commonwealth. So

467
01:17:51,208 --> 01:17:54,791
I have a British publisher and they're

468
01:17:54,791 --> 01:17:56,458
really doing their best to

469
01:17:56,458 --> 01:17:57,833
get the book to the Caribbean.

470
01:18:00,250 --> 01:18:03,000
Yeah, it was a continuous conversation

471
01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:05,833
about racial justice and climate justice,

472
01:18:06,250 --> 01:18:08,666
and then people would say to me, so are

473
01:18:08,666 --> 01:18:11,125
you saying that we need to have racial

474
01:18:11,125 --> 01:18:13,708
justice to have climate justice or

475
01:18:13,708 --> 01:18:14,583
climate justice to have

476
01:18:14,583 --> 01:18:16,000
racial justice, right?

477
01:18:16,208 --> 01:18:17,875
And they were really confused like they

478
01:18:17,875 --> 01:18:19,750
thought we could have one without the

479
01:18:19,750 --> 01:18:22,750
other. But it's specifically because

480
01:18:22,750 --> 01:18:24,916
these communities who are the most

481
01:18:24,916 --> 01:18:28,833
vulnerable, the most living at the edge

482
01:18:28,833 --> 01:18:32,333
of society or the map who are being

483
01:18:32,333 --> 01:18:35,583
affected by coastal erosion or rising sea

484
01:18:35,583 --> 01:18:38,375
levels that we have to see it as all part

485
01:18:38,375 --> 01:18:39,583
of the same problem.

486
01:18:40,250 --> 01:18:43,416
So, yeah, I feel the book was really

487
01:18:43,416 --> 01:18:48,166
meant to explain to those who do see it

488
01:18:48,166 --> 01:18:50,458
as so separate that we actually cannot

489
01:18:50,458 --> 01:18:52,208
have one without the other. And if we

490
01:18:52,208 --> 01:18:53,916
keep trying to do one without the other,

491
01:18:54,375 --> 01:18:55,500
we're never going to succeed.

492
01:18:56,250 --> 01:18:59,250
But if we do approach both questions as

493
01:18:59,250 --> 01:19:02,541
entangled and intertwined, then I think

494
01:19:02,541 --> 01:19:05,250
that there's a lot of hope. Yeah, in

495
01:19:05,250 --> 01:19:08,833
terms of putting different indigenous

496
01:19:08,833 --> 01:19:11,958
folks and scientists at the policymaking

497
01:19:11,958 --> 01:19:14,375
table, because like you said, they do

498
01:19:14,375 --> 01:19:16,541
have knowledge that comes from

499
01:19:16,541 --> 01:19:19,041
generations of indigenous science,

500
01:19:20,625 --> 01:19:24,083
Asian views of natural science, African

501
01:19:24,083 --> 01:19:28,500
ways of understanding time that really

502
01:19:28,500 --> 01:19:30,833
just have not been included when it comes

503
01:19:30,833 --> 01:19:34,375
to policy. So this book is really about

504
01:19:34,375 --> 01:19:37,458
the kind of optimism that would require

505
01:19:37,458 --> 01:19:40,833
bringing all of these different people

506
01:19:40,833 --> 01:19:43,583
together, not only of different ancestral

507
01:19:43,583 --> 01:19:47,208
backgrounds, but also of different

508
01:19:47,208 --> 01:19:48,583
disciplinary training.

509
01:19:49,541 --> 01:19:53,916
So, yeah, I feel that the question to do

510
01:19:53,916 --> 01:19:56,041
with economy is one that I came up

511
01:19:56,041 --> 01:19:58,000
against when I was doing research at the

512
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:00,416
Geological Society in London, at the

513
01:20:00,416 --> 01:20:04,125
Royal Academy. And I was just shocked to

514
01:20:04,125 --> 01:20:06,000
learn that there used to be a discipline

515
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:07,625
called economic geology.

516
01:20:08,208 --> 01:20:13,125
And I learned from a group of geologists

517
01:20:13,125 --> 01:20:16,041
in DC, who invited me to give a keynote

518
01:20:16,041 --> 01:20:19,833
on geosciences, that this discipline kind

519
01:20:19,833 --> 01:20:22,625
of fell out of fashion in the 1970s. But

520
01:20:22,625 --> 01:20:26,000
it really was a, I guess, a branch of

521
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:27,416
science that was developed by

522
01:20:27,416 --> 01:20:28,875
petrochemical corporation.

523
01:20:29,291 --> 01:20:32,833
I assumed. Yeah, but I think we see this

524
01:20:32,833 --> 01:20:36,000
coming back now where economic geology

525
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:40,458
with DC mining becomes. Yeah, something

526
01:20:40,458 --> 01:20:42,333
that's being funded by these

527
01:20:42,333 --> 01:20:46,291
corporations. So, um, yeah, it's, it's

528
01:20:46,291 --> 01:20:47,750
something that I think we need to be

529
01:20:47,750 --> 01:20:50,708
aware of how much we're, we're selling

530
01:20:50,708 --> 01:20:52,333
away in terms of the future.

531
01:20:52,583 --> 01:20:53,916
Oh, my God. When we look to

532
01:20:53,916 --> 01:20:55,833
solutions and geo engineering.

533
01:20:56,708 --> 01:20:58,708
I, I, the way you put it, how much we're

534
01:20:58,708 --> 01:21:01,166
selling away. I think that's a, that's a

535
01:21:01,166 --> 01:21:04,750
really important statement, right? That

536
01:21:04,750 --> 01:21:06,375
you just said that that just resonated

537
01:21:06,375 --> 01:21:11,041
with me because I find in everything, we

538
01:21:11,041 --> 01:21:12,625
are now equating

539
01:21:12,625 --> 01:21:14,791
everything to how much did it sell?

540
01:21:16,041 --> 01:21:18,000
Yeah, instead of impacting and it's not

541
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:20,416
just science, it's everything. It's not

542
01:21:20,416 --> 01:21:22,791
just books, it's everything. Instead of

543
01:21:22,791 --> 01:21:26,458
having the impact, right? Of reading a

544
01:21:26,458 --> 01:21:28,458
book such as yours and being like, wow,

545
01:21:29,125 --> 01:21:31,666
okay, so this really changed my mind.

546
01:21:32,708 --> 01:21:35,000
But maybe it doesn't sell 3 million

547
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:37,250
copies, right? And then you get another

548
01:21:37,250 --> 01:21:38,875
book that sells 3 million copies, but it

549
01:21:38,875 --> 01:21:40,416
doesn't impact anybody. It didn't maybe

550
01:21:40,416 --> 01:21:42,250
entertain somebody, but it may not change

551
01:21:42,250 --> 01:21:44,416
their lives. And I find the same thing in

552
01:21:44,416 --> 01:21:46,583
music. I'm a big hip hop fan. And I find

553
01:21:46,583 --> 01:21:48,500
the same thing in music. And so like I

554
01:21:48,500 --> 01:21:51,250
came from a generation where, you know, I

555
01:21:51,250 --> 01:21:53,041
grew up in the, like my teenage life in

556
01:21:53,041 --> 01:21:54,875
my twenties were in the nineties. And

557
01:21:54,875 --> 01:21:56,291
there was like, I feel like it was a

558
01:21:56,291 --> 01:21:57,833
great time for hip hop. It was about

559
01:21:57,833 --> 01:21:59,875
lyrics. It was about poetry. It was

560
01:21:59,875 --> 01:22:00,958
about, you know,

561
01:22:00,958 --> 01:22:01,208
really getting and learning.

562
01:22:01,208 --> 01:22:04,333
About a culture that I did nothing. I

563
01:22:04,333 --> 01:22:07,250
knew nothing about. And now and now and

564
01:22:07,250 --> 01:22:09,041
that wasn't like you either still like

565
01:22:09,041 --> 01:22:11,416
the, it wasn't necessarily a pop chart

566
01:22:11,416 --> 01:22:13,416
type of music. So it was still a lot of

567
01:22:13,416 --> 01:22:15,791
it was underground or close to it. But

568
01:22:15,791 --> 01:22:18,708
nowadays, because hip hop and rap has

569
01:22:18,708 --> 01:22:21,541
become such a huge part of everybody's

570
01:22:21,541 --> 01:22:24,083
lives. It's on the pop charts. It's on,

571
01:22:24,083 --> 01:22:26,666
you know, that popular music and

572
01:22:26,666 --> 01:22:29,583
everything is I see it seems to be

573
01:22:29,583 --> 01:22:30,208
equated to like your goal.

574
01:22:30,250 --> 01:22:32,083
It's not like you're great because you

575
01:22:32,083 --> 01:22:34,083
sold this many albums or you sold this

576
01:22:34,083 --> 01:22:35,375
many streams or you had this many

577
01:22:35,375 --> 01:22:37,375
streams. That's what makes it great. It's

578
01:22:37,375 --> 01:22:39,333
not the impact of your lyrics. Cause

579
01:22:39,333 --> 01:22:40,541
sometimes the lyrics you're like, this,

580
01:22:40,875 --> 01:22:43,875
this person said nothing, you know, but

581
01:22:43,875 --> 01:22:46,583
you look at, you know, people like, like

582
01:22:46,583 --> 01:22:49,416
Mo Steph and Talib Kweli and Common who

583
01:22:49,416 --> 01:22:50,500
had very, like, I call them

584
01:22:50,500 --> 01:22:51,208
the conscious rappers, right?

585
01:22:51,375 --> 01:22:53,250
Where you're like, they made even Tupac

586
01:22:53,250 --> 01:22:55,083
Shakur. Like they make you think about

587
01:22:55,083 --> 01:22:57,000
stuff. Yeah. Instead of just talking

588
01:22:57,000 --> 01:22:59,708
about money and talking about, you know,

589
01:22:59,708 --> 01:23:02,333
women or or cars and things like that.

590
01:23:02,333 --> 01:23:03,791
You're, you're actually thinking like,

591
01:23:03,791 --> 01:23:06,333
wow, like there's pain in that there's

592
01:23:06,333 --> 01:23:08,291
there's happiness. There's like there's

593
01:23:08,291 --> 01:23:11,416
conflict in a lot of the the poetry

594
01:23:11,416 --> 01:23:14,916
that's been said through hip hop. And I

595
01:23:14,916 --> 01:23:16,541
find, I know I'm going on quite a

596
01:23:16,541 --> 01:23:18,166
tangent, but I find like we do that with

597
01:23:18,166 --> 01:23:20,208
a lot of the stuff that even when we look at environment and stuff.

598
01:23:20,208 --> 01:23:21,833
We look at environment and economy. It's

599
01:23:21,833 --> 01:23:23,666
like, well, this will make us money. You

600
01:23:23,666 --> 01:23:25,625
know, deep sea mining will make us money

601
01:23:25,625 --> 01:23:28,125
or, you know, doing this oil and gas

602
01:23:28,125 --> 01:23:30,958
business will give us money. And that's

603
01:23:30,958 --> 01:23:32,416
all we care about. We don't care about

604
01:23:32,416 --> 01:23:33,916
the people at harms. We don't talk about

605
01:23:33,916 --> 01:23:35,416
the people that harms. We don't care

606
01:23:35,416 --> 01:23:37,000
about the damage to the environment.

607
01:23:37,500 --> 01:23:39,291
We'll just make up stuff and we'll deny

608
01:23:39,291 --> 01:23:41,416
it. And then the messaging comes out to

609
01:23:41,416 --> 01:23:42,500
the people and then everything gets

610
01:23:42,500 --> 01:23:44,000
confused. You know, the history obviously

611
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:46,500
more than I do. And it's like, holy cow,

612
01:23:46,708 --> 01:23:49,208
like, when are we going to stop and think like, impact on the people that harm.

613
01:23:49,208 --> 01:23:51,583
And I think like impact over profit.

614
01:23:51,833 --> 01:23:54,000
Right? Like, let's worry about how it

615
01:23:54,000 --> 01:23:56,000
impacts people. And I just did an

616
01:23:56,000 --> 01:23:57,583
interview with Dr. Andrew Thaler on deep

617
01:23:57,583 --> 01:23:59,958
sea mining and he was saying that we are

618
01:23:59,958 --> 01:24:01,958
at an we have an opportunity here as

619
01:24:01,958 --> 01:24:04,041
scientists and as people as citizens,

620
01:24:04,625 --> 01:24:05,625
whether you're studying humanities or

621
01:24:05,625 --> 01:24:08,291
science or both, to develop regulations

622
01:24:08,291 --> 01:24:09,750
around deep sea mining that if it does

623
01:24:09,750 --> 01:24:11,458
decide to go ahead, that we can actually

624
01:24:11,458 --> 01:24:13,916
be ahead of this and be very cautionary

625
01:24:13,916 --> 01:24:15,875
and make sure that, you know what, people

626
01:24:15,875 --> 01:24:18,208
might might be able to make money, but they might not be able to make money.

627
01:24:18,250 --> 01:24:20,000
But they might not be able to be like

628
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:22,583
crazy, you know, trillions of dollars or

629
01:24:22,583 --> 01:24:24,583
anything like that, but it could help in

630
01:24:24,583 --> 01:24:26,708
bringing down our our emissions, but it

631
01:24:26,708 --> 01:24:28,041
also might not. We have to be very

632
01:24:28,041 --> 01:24:30,000
careful in what it what the damage it

633
01:24:30,000 --> 01:24:31,208
does to our deep sea.

634
01:24:31,208 --> 01:24:33,708
Did you find that when when doing the

635
01:24:33,708 --> 01:24:35,333
research for your book, did you find

636
01:24:35,333 --> 01:24:36,666
that, you know, you talked about the

637
01:24:36,666 --> 01:24:39,166
economy, like, was that always a case

638
01:24:39,166 --> 01:24:41,375
where it's like, how much money we could

639
01:24:41,375 --> 01:24:43,666
make on stuffing always outweighed the

640
01:24:43,666 --> 01:24:45,750
impact on the people and the

641
01:24:45,750 --> 01:24:47,208
society and the environment?

642
01:24:47,208 --> 01:24:50,625
Unfortunately, yes. And I just love this

643
01:24:50,625 --> 01:24:52,833
question because it brings me to the

644
01:24:52,833 --> 01:24:56,416
1970s and Jamaican politics at a certain

645
01:24:56,416 --> 01:25:00,166
moment where you have the the pull of the

646
01:25:00,166 --> 01:25:04,250
United States. This is the Cold War. And

647
01:25:04,250 --> 01:25:06,958
then you have the the dream of a

648
01:25:06,958 --> 01:25:08,000
democratic socialist,

649
01:25:08,500 --> 01:25:10,208
maybe more Marxist led economy.

650
01:25:10,250 --> 01:25:13,666
Right. But I look to the fact that both

651
01:25:13,666 --> 01:25:17,791
were looking to mining a box site as the

652
01:25:17,791 --> 01:25:21,708
solution. And I really just point to the

653
01:25:21,708 --> 01:25:27,500
fact that both both were selling away the

654
01:25:27,500 --> 01:25:31,166
future, both communism and capitalism

655
01:25:31,166 --> 01:25:32,000
when you think about

656
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:33,208
industrialism in that moment.

657
01:25:33,208 --> 01:25:37,666
So I think we do need to have a bigger

658
01:25:37,666 --> 01:25:41,583
imagination about what sorts of economies

659
01:25:41,583 --> 01:25:44,208
can sustain the future. And I think it's

660
01:25:44,208 --> 01:25:47,125
a question of temporality and time. So

661
01:25:47,125 --> 01:25:48,666
just like how you were talking about

662
01:25:48,666 --> 01:25:52,166
Taiwan and Hong Kong, how they see time

663
01:25:52,166 --> 01:25:54,875
maybe as longer in terms of generations.

664
01:25:55,250 --> 01:25:58,250
I've learned the same from Haudenosaunee

665
01:25:58,250 --> 01:26:00,791
folks, both in Canada and the US that

666
01:26:00,791 --> 01:26:02,875
they think in terms of seven generations.

667
01:26:04,208 --> 01:26:07,208
So I feel that if we actually were going

668
01:26:07,208 --> 01:26:10,416
to look at the economics of these deals

669
01:26:10,416 --> 01:26:14,041
over seven generations, then the price

670
01:26:14,041 --> 01:26:16,541
point would be different. So we need that

671
01:26:16,541 --> 01:26:20,291
kind of scale to really think about how

672
01:26:20,291 --> 01:26:23,375
much money is being made because I'm

673
01:26:23,375 --> 01:26:24,208
under no illusions that we need to be able to do that.

674
01:26:25,208 --> 01:26:27,291
And I think we need money to sustain

675
01:26:27,291 --> 01:26:30,833
livelihoods, people, families, but but

676
01:26:30,833 --> 01:26:33,166
there is a lot ethically that I think

677
01:26:33,166 --> 01:26:35,333
you're pointing to that we have to reckon

678
01:26:35,333 --> 01:26:37,416
with when it comes to valuation.

679
01:26:40,208 --> 01:26:42,625
As well as advisory board members, Fred

680
01:26:42,625 --> 01:26:47,958
Mouton, he's a philosopher and works, I

681
01:26:47,958 --> 01:26:51,250
guess within black studies, and he always

682
01:26:51,250 --> 01:26:54,291
talks about how every moment of valuation

683
01:26:54,291 --> 01:26:56,541
is also a moment of devaluation.

684
01:26:58,250 --> 01:27:01,958
that has really stuck with me because

685
01:27:01,958 --> 01:27:04,625
even being on TikTok or on

686
01:27:04,625 --> 01:27:06,666
social media, when you're

687
01:27:06,666 --> 01:27:09,416
doing everything for likes, you're also

688
01:27:09,416 --> 01:27:11,458
aware of how many

689
01:27:11,458 --> 01:27:12,625
likes you're not getting.

690
01:27:13,833 --> 01:27:15,416
So everything that becomes valued becomes

691
01:27:15,416 --> 01:27:16,500
devalued, just like

692
01:27:16,500 --> 01:27:17,666
you're saying with sales

693
01:27:17,916 --> 01:27:19,458
and putting a price on everything.

694
01:27:20,291 --> 01:27:22,000
And there's a cost to that.

695
01:27:23,125 --> 01:27:25,833
And Fred Milton's point was that black

696
01:27:25,833 --> 01:27:26,916
people in particular are

697
01:27:26,916 --> 01:27:28,250
no stranger to this because

698
01:27:28,250 --> 01:27:31,291
of the auction block and just like the

699
01:27:31,291 --> 01:27:33,041
original sin of

700
01:27:33,041 --> 01:27:36,041
trafficking humans in slavery.

701
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:40,208
So we just can't forget that it wasn't

702
01:27:40,208 --> 01:27:43,083
that long ago that these

703
01:27:43,083 --> 01:27:45,875
kinds of horrific markets

704
01:27:48,541 --> 01:27:48,666
existed.

705
01:27:49,583 --> 01:27:51,291
So there's just a lot to

706
01:27:51,291 --> 01:27:53,000
be considering ethically.

707
01:27:53,750 --> 01:27:57,083
And I see countries like Guyana who just

708
01:27:57,083 --> 01:27:59,625
discovered oil in the deep sea and

709
01:27:59,625 --> 01:28:00,916
they're making those

710
01:28:00,916 --> 01:28:03,708
decisions right now, having been the

711
01:28:03,708 --> 01:28:05,500
poorest country along with

712
01:28:05,500 --> 01:28:07,625
Haiti in the Western hemisphere

713
01:28:08,541 --> 01:28:10,916
to drill, I guess like Trump

714
01:28:10,916 --> 01:28:12,166
was saying drill baby drill.

715
01:28:12,708 --> 01:28:15,708
And even though these are more radical or

716
01:28:15,708 --> 01:28:17,000
socialist leaders,

717
01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:19,166
they're also going towards

718
01:28:19,250 --> 01:28:21,208
drilling as a solution.

719
01:28:21,875 --> 01:28:23,250
So it just shows me that there's

720
01:28:23,250 --> 01:28:24,250
something more that we

721
01:28:24,250 --> 01:28:27,625
need to be reckoning with when

722
01:28:27,625 --> 01:28:31,250
it comes to the regulations that you said

723
01:28:31,250 --> 01:28:32,833
your guest was talking about.

724
01:28:33,375 --> 01:28:35,500
And to bring it back to hip hop, because

725
01:28:35,500 --> 01:28:37,916
I'm also a fan of 90s

726
01:28:37,916 --> 01:28:40,833
hip hop, there's so much

727
01:28:40,833 --> 01:28:43,291
in here that I could say about Biggie.

728
01:28:44,625 --> 01:28:46,208
And the fact that he was

729
01:28:46,208 --> 01:28:48,291
such a profound storyteller.

730
01:28:49,375 --> 01:28:50,500
Both of his parents are

731
01:28:50,500 --> 01:28:52,166
from Jamaica, The Rock.

732
01:28:53,625 --> 01:28:56,500
And even though he's from Brooklyn,

733
01:28:57,125 --> 01:28:58,875
there's just so much of

734
01:28:58,875 --> 01:29:02,500
Jamaica in his lyrics.

735
01:29:03,166 --> 01:29:05,458
And I think that we could learn from a

736
01:29:05,458 --> 01:29:07,833
storyteller like him about

737
01:29:07,833 --> 01:29:09,708
the kinds of stories that we

738
01:29:09,750 --> 01:29:11,750
need to be telling about climate so that

739
01:29:11,750 --> 01:29:13,000
everyone realizes they

740
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:14,916
need to be a part of this.

741
01:29:15,333 --> 01:29:19,291
So I think storytelling is actually a

742
01:29:19,291 --> 01:29:21,625
great tool to engage

743
01:29:21,625 --> 01:29:25,000
everyone into realizing nobody,

744
01:29:25,666 --> 01:29:27,291
like everyone is a part of this human

745
01:29:27,291 --> 01:29:29,416
history, this non-human history.

746
01:29:30,083 --> 01:29:33,125
Like we all have to tell this story

747
01:29:33,125 --> 01:29:35,041
together, no matter where

748
01:29:35,041 --> 01:29:36,541
we're from on the planet.

749
01:29:36,666 --> 01:29:41,000
So I wonder if Biggie had lived till

750
01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:42,666
today, like what he would have been

751
01:29:42,666 --> 01:29:44,958
saying about ecology and climate.

752
01:29:46,125 --> 01:29:48,583
It'd be very interesting him and Tupac,

753
01:29:48,583 --> 01:29:50,500
you know, we all I think

754
01:29:50,500 --> 01:29:53,166
both of us who are fans of both,

755
01:29:53,166 --> 01:29:55,458
you know, we hope that they are that they

756
01:29:55,458 --> 01:29:56,125
would have been best

757
01:29:56,125 --> 01:29:57,500
friends again at some point.

758
01:29:57,750 --> 01:29:58,416
And I believe that

759
01:29:58,416 --> 01:29:59,625
and changing the world.

760
01:29:59,625 --> 01:30:02,125
I think both of them were very conscious

761
01:30:02,125 --> 01:30:03,375
of what was happening around

762
01:30:03,375 --> 01:30:04,708
them, you know, being from,

763
01:30:05,541 --> 01:30:08,625
you know, parents who were very aware and

764
01:30:08,625 --> 01:30:12,083
active in their youth about what was

765
01:30:12,083 --> 01:30:13,416
happening to their communities.

766
01:30:13,875 --> 01:30:15,500
And I think it'd be cool.

767
01:30:15,791 --> 01:30:16,750
You know, you never know.

768
01:30:16,750 --> 01:30:18,958
They could have invented a genre of

769
01:30:18,958 --> 01:30:21,625
climate rap, you know, to be that's the

770
01:30:21,625 --> 01:30:23,208
best storytelling for me anyway.

771
01:30:24,083 --> 01:30:26,208
But you know, you really you really hit

772
01:30:26,208 --> 01:30:29,500
the nail on the head here with with the

773
01:30:29,500 --> 01:30:31,458
storytelling is a lot of people,

774
01:30:31,458 --> 01:30:33,208
when we think about climate change and I

775
01:30:33,208 --> 01:30:34,291
talk about this all the time.

776
01:30:35,333 --> 01:30:37,291
So I'm also guilty of this.

777
01:30:38,041 --> 01:30:39,875
We talk about energy.

778
01:30:40,208 --> 01:30:42,083
How do we reduce greenhouse gases?

779
01:30:42,333 --> 01:30:43,458
That's what everybody is like.

780
01:30:43,458 --> 01:30:44,791
That's the big topic right now.

781
01:30:44,791 --> 01:30:46,375
And there's and there's debate and

782
01:30:46,375 --> 01:30:48,166
controversy around a lot of the different

783
01:30:48,166 --> 01:30:49,125
methods of doing it.

784
01:30:49,500 --> 01:30:50,250
Renewable energy,

785
01:30:50,875 --> 01:30:53,166
carbon taxes, cap and trade.

786
01:30:53,666 --> 01:30:56,166
We think about that and we think about

787
01:30:56,166 --> 01:30:59,458
sort of the overall populace, but not the

788
01:30:59,458 --> 01:31:00,375
individual communities.

789
01:31:01,041 --> 01:31:03,000
So we think of Canada and the countries

790
01:31:03,000 --> 01:31:05,250
and how each country is doing.

791
01:31:06,500 --> 01:31:09,541
And so I think there's we lose a feature

792
01:31:09,541 --> 01:31:12,000
of the story of the story that's supposed

793
01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:13,583
to be told because we

794
01:31:13,583 --> 01:31:15,000
don't get all the stories.

795
01:31:15,041 --> 01:31:16,500
We just get one narrative

796
01:31:16,500 --> 01:31:18,041
when it comes to climate.

797
01:31:18,500 --> 01:31:21,375
Right. It's we need to reduce emissions

798
01:31:21,375 --> 01:31:23,583
or else, you know, certain states or

799
01:31:23,583 --> 01:31:25,583
certain provinces or certain parts of the

800
01:31:25,583 --> 01:31:27,166
world are going to be flooded, are going

801
01:31:27,166 --> 01:31:28,041
to be burnt, are going to

802
01:31:28,041 --> 01:31:29,333
be all this type of stuff.

803
01:31:29,666 --> 01:31:30,583
But we don't think of

804
01:31:30,583 --> 01:31:31,791
the individual people.

805
01:31:32,166 --> 01:31:33,291
We don't think of the individual

806
01:31:33,291 --> 01:31:33,958
communities that will

807
01:31:33,958 --> 01:31:35,916
be affected more or less.

808
01:31:36,416 --> 01:31:37,625
And those stories don't

809
01:31:37,625 --> 01:31:40,375
really come to to the front.

810
01:31:40,916 --> 01:31:41,916
Right. They don't they don't come to the

811
01:31:41,916 --> 01:31:43,000
forefront and we don't

812
01:31:43,000 --> 01:31:44,083
get to listen to him.

813
01:31:44,416 --> 01:31:45,958
You know, how?

814
01:31:46,208 --> 01:31:49,875
So my question is, you've you met a lot

815
01:31:49,875 --> 01:31:51,000
of different communities right in this

816
01:31:51,000 --> 01:31:52,708
book and your career.

817
01:31:54,500 --> 01:31:55,041
And we'll talk about

818
01:31:55,041 --> 01:31:56,500
your lab in just a second.

819
01:31:56,541 --> 01:31:59,000
But when you talk to the different people

820
01:31:59,000 --> 01:32:00,333
and you hear these stories and they're

821
01:32:00,333 --> 01:32:01,166
always compelling,

822
01:32:01,166 --> 01:32:02,375
they're always interesting.

823
01:32:03,375 --> 01:32:06,625
How do we get those stories to the

824
01:32:06,625 --> 01:32:10,000
forefront of of climate action so that

825
01:32:10,000 --> 01:32:12,750
people like myself, like yourself, can

826
01:32:12,750 --> 01:32:14,250
learn about the different

827
01:32:14,250 --> 01:32:15,958
people and how they're affected?

828
01:32:18,000 --> 01:32:21,708
I mean, I was very lucky on January 1st

829
01:32:21,708 --> 01:32:22,625
of twenty twenty five.

830
01:32:22,666 --> 01:32:26,041
So just a month ago to meet Julian

831
01:32:26,041 --> 01:32:28,708
Alguan, who is from Guam.

832
01:32:29,125 --> 01:32:33,125
He's a Chamorro indigenous writer, but

833
01:32:33,125 --> 01:32:36,500
also human rights activist and lawyer.

834
01:32:36,875 --> 01:32:41,458
So he and a number of other lawyers are

835
01:32:41,458 --> 01:32:43,583
actually taking a case to the Hague.

836
01:32:44,541 --> 01:32:48,041
So to the ICJ about climate reparations.

837
01:32:48,583 --> 01:32:49,708
And it's actually

838
01:32:49,708 --> 01:32:51,791
coming from the Pacific.

839
01:32:52,500 --> 01:32:54,458
So islands like Palau that you had

840
01:32:54,458 --> 01:32:56,416
mentioned, you have listeners out there.

841
01:32:56,625 --> 01:32:58,041
Yeah. But also to the

842
01:32:58,041 --> 01:33:00,875
Caribbean, where my family is from.

843
01:33:01,458 --> 01:33:02,958
And I think African

844
01:33:02,958 --> 01:33:05,166
nations are included as well.

845
01:33:06,041 --> 01:33:08,250
So I find a lot of hope in

846
01:33:08,250 --> 01:33:10,750
the fact that there's actual.

847
01:33:12,208 --> 01:33:16,500
People who are trained as lawyers.

848
01:33:17,791 --> 01:33:20,041
Really thinking about shaping this policy

849
01:33:20,041 --> 01:33:25,208
by coming to these, yeah, tribunals in

850
01:33:25,208 --> 01:33:27,125
Europe and really saying these are the

851
01:33:27,125 --> 01:33:29,000
crimes against humanity.

852
01:33:29,375 --> 01:33:30,791
And this is our plan for

853
01:33:30,791 --> 01:33:32,041
what can be done about it.

854
01:33:32,666 --> 01:33:33,625
So it's going to take

855
01:33:33,625 --> 01:33:36,208
global action for sure.

856
01:33:36,791 --> 01:33:40,916
And I think it's also really important

857
01:33:40,916 --> 01:33:43,291
what you said about greenhouse gases and

858
01:33:43,291 --> 01:33:45,041
emissions, because in the

859
01:33:45,041 --> 01:33:46,500
book I write about how, yes,

860
01:33:46,541 --> 01:33:50,416
that is one metric that we tend to just

861
01:33:50,416 --> 01:33:52,250
focus on the carbon footprint.

862
01:33:53,208 --> 01:33:54,083
But let's say that we

863
01:33:54,083 --> 01:33:55,375
did solve that problem.

864
01:33:56,416 --> 01:33:58,375
I'm sure there would be a thousand other

865
01:33:58,375 --> 01:34:01,250
problems to do with climate to do with

866
01:34:01,250 --> 01:34:04,500
loss of biodiversity, to do with all of

867
01:34:04,500 --> 01:34:06,916
these issues that don't technically fall

868
01:34:06,916 --> 01:34:08,750
under global warming and yet

869
01:34:08,750 --> 01:34:10,541
are part of the bigger problem.

870
01:34:11,125 --> 01:34:13,791
So I'm very suspicious of

871
01:34:13,791 --> 01:34:15,500
what's called blue washing.

872
01:34:16,250 --> 01:34:17,875
And I think we should have more attention

873
01:34:17,875 --> 01:34:21,250
to to that and the ways that these

874
01:34:21,250 --> 01:34:25,250
corporations are using false narratives

875
01:34:25,250 --> 01:34:28,833
about ocean conservation to cover up the

876
01:34:28,833 --> 01:34:29,875
fact that they're just

877
01:34:29,875 --> 01:34:32,166
raking in more profits.

878
01:34:33,041 --> 01:34:35,375
So that's why we need to really take

879
01:34:35,375 --> 01:34:39,000
control of the narratives around climate

880
01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:41,375
and and the metrics that it's more than

881
01:34:41,375 --> 01:34:42,416
just carbon emissions.

882
01:34:42,916 --> 01:34:46,333
It's it's about corals under the sea,

883
01:34:46,333 --> 01:34:46,958
which I write about

884
01:34:46,958 --> 01:34:47,916
in the fourth chapter.

885
01:34:48,125 --> 01:34:49,375
It's it's everything.

886
01:34:49,708 --> 01:34:51,583
And it's all related, at least as I see

887
01:34:51,583 --> 01:34:55,500
it, to modern capitalism, which really

888
01:34:55,500 --> 01:34:59,041
is, as I see it, not inevitable.

889
01:34:59,708 --> 01:35:00,791
And I think the

890
01:35:00,791 --> 01:35:02,000
crisis was not inevitable.

891
01:35:02,500 --> 01:35:03,500
So therefore, I have hope

892
01:35:03,500 --> 01:35:05,375
that we can get beyond it.

893
01:35:05,666 --> 01:35:07,416
But I think we'd have to break free of

894
01:35:07,416 --> 01:35:10,958
this this logic of profit and more profit

895
01:35:10,958 --> 01:35:14,000
that capitalism sells us.

896
01:35:14,500 --> 01:35:15,583
I completely agree.

897
01:35:15,916 --> 01:35:17,583
And there are so many like this is one of

898
01:35:17,583 --> 01:35:19,000
the reasons why I started this podcast

899
01:35:19,000 --> 01:35:22,125
was to be able to provide a platform for

900
01:35:22,125 --> 01:35:23,666
people to find out more about the ocean,

901
01:35:23,666 --> 01:35:26,000
but also the the complexities and the

902
01:35:26,000 --> 01:35:27,500
layers of ocean conservation.

903
01:35:28,208 --> 01:35:30,208
The stuff that you're talking about and

904
01:35:30,208 --> 01:35:32,250
that we're talking about today is one of

905
01:35:32,250 --> 01:35:33,208
those complexities that

906
01:35:33,208 --> 01:35:34,791
we don't often talk about.

907
01:35:36,208 --> 01:35:38,375
And just like a lot of the scientists,

908
01:35:38,875 --> 01:35:39,916
you know, what was happening like when I

909
01:35:39,916 --> 01:35:42,916
started this back in 2015, I started

910
01:35:42,916 --> 01:35:44,791
truthfully, I started

911
01:35:44,791 --> 01:35:46,500
interviewing in 2014.

912
01:35:46,791 --> 01:35:48,208
But I was scared to publish.

913
01:35:48,208 --> 01:35:50,125
And that's another that's another thing

914
01:35:50,125 --> 01:35:50,833
because we didn't really

915
01:35:50,833 --> 01:35:52,125
talk about science back then.

916
01:35:52,208 --> 01:35:54,083
But I was meeting so many really

917
01:35:54,083 --> 01:35:56,000
interesting people that had cool projects

918
01:35:56,000 --> 01:35:58,500
and and I want to put them on this

919
01:35:58,500 --> 01:36:00,000
platform and to have them tell their

920
01:36:00,000 --> 01:36:01,958
story because they're not going on

921
01:36:01,958 --> 01:36:02,958
Discovery Channel Shark

922
01:36:02,958 --> 01:36:05,375
Week or on that all the time.

923
01:36:05,375 --> 01:36:06,708
Like some of them have and they've

924
01:36:06,708 --> 01:36:08,541
developed their careers, but but they're

925
01:36:08,541 --> 01:36:09,916
doing such interesting projects that

926
01:36:09,916 --> 01:36:11,333
nobody knows about that would bring

927
01:36:11,333 --> 01:36:13,833
optimism to ocean conservation, to

928
01:36:13,833 --> 01:36:15,625
climate change and so forth.

929
01:36:16,291 --> 01:36:17,666
But they just don't get that platform.

930
01:36:18,375 --> 01:36:19,875
And it's just like the communities that

931
01:36:19,875 --> 01:36:21,375
you're talking about. They don't get that

932
01:36:21,375 --> 01:36:24,333
platform. They don't get that even a

933
01:36:24,333 --> 01:36:27,458
YouTube channel or thing because they're

934
01:36:27,458 --> 01:36:29,125
telling stories within their own

935
01:36:29,125 --> 01:36:31,041
communities because that's important to

936
01:36:31,041 --> 01:36:32,250
them to continue on.

937
01:36:32,250 --> 01:36:34,250
So people learn from the history and they

938
01:36:34,250 --> 01:36:35,333
learn through that storytelling.

939
01:36:35,500 --> 01:36:37,791
But other communities outside that don't

940
01:36:37,791 --> 01:36:39,458
get to hear because they're worried about

941
01:36:39,458 --> 01:36:40,250
their own community.

942
01:36:40,250 --> 01:36:40,875
They have to worry.

943
01:36:41,250 --> 01:36:41,916
So they're starting.

944
01:36:41,916 --> 01:36:43,375
They're telling stories internally, but

945
01:36:43,375 --> 01:36:45,083
they're also worried about the challenges

946
01:36:45,083 --> 01:36:47,041
that they're facing as a community that

947
01:36:47,041 --> 01:36:51,500
may or may not be climate induced, but

948
01:36:51,500 --> 01:36:53,000
they still have to worry about that.

949
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:54,541
And that was that was one thing I really

950
01:36:54,541 --> 01:36:56,375
learned that that really floored me was

951
01:36:56,375 --> 01:36:58,000
there are certain communities that are

952
01:36:58,000 --> 01:37:01,041
worried about other things than climate

953
01:37:01,041 --> 01:37:02,625
because that's it's more

954
01:37:02,625 --> 01:37:05,208
threatening to them at that time.

955
01:37:05,250 --> 01:37:08,625
It could be poverty. It could be well, I

956
01:37:08,625 --> 01:37:10,166
mean, I guess it's climate related, but

957
01:37:10,166 --> 01:37:11,916
there's chemical there's chemical alley

958
01:37:11,916 --> 01:37:14,416
down in the south in the US where people

959
01:37:14,416 --> 01:37:17,208
are getting cancer at historic rates and

960
01:37:17,208 --> 01:37:19,541
unprecedented rates because of where they

961
01:37:19,541 --> 01:37:20,291
live and they live by

962
01:37:20,291 --> 01:37:21,458
refineries and so forth.

963
01:37:21,500 --> 01:37:26,500
It's it's to get those stories told on a

964
01:37:26,500 --> 01:37:29,083
network or on a channel that would be

965
01:37:29,083 --> 01:37:31,583
popular would be phenomenal to be.

966
01:37:31,583 --> 01:37:32,625
But we don't see that.

967
01:37:32,625 --> 01:37:34,666
Why is it that we don't see those stories

968
01:37:34,666 --> 01:37:37,666
being told on a regular basis and not

969
01:37:37,666 --> 01:37:40,916
just to highlight a certain month or that

970
01:37:40,916 --> 01:37:42,250
they're honoring a group?

971
01:37:42,458 --> 01:37:43,333
Why don't we see it on a

972
01:37:43,333 --> 01:37:45,166
regular basis so that we can say.

973
01:37:45,208 --> 01:37:48,333
Excuse my honest, but holy shit, like

974
01:37:48,333 --> 01:37:49,250
they're going through that.

975
01:37:49,583 --> 01:37:51,000
Like, why are they going through that?

976
01:37:51,250 --> 01:37:53,416
Like, why are the why are these people in

977
01:37:53,416 --> 01:37:55,000
this community going through it and

978
01:37:55,000 --> 01:37:57,000
weren't weren't we're okay over here?

979
01:37:57,333 --> 01:38:00,041
That's not right. Like how why don't we

980
01:38:00,041 --> 01:38:01,583
focus more on this group so that

981
01:38:01,583 --> 01:38:02,791
everybody can focus on

982
01:38:02,791 --> 01:38:03,750
climate change, right?

983
01:38:12,208 --> 01:38:16,000
I guess I would say Hollywood. Yeah, I

984
01:38:16,000 --> 01:38:17,875
would say the producers. Yeah.

985
01:38:18,791 --> 01:38:22,125
They think that X is what sells.

986
01:38:22,250 --> 01:38:26,041
If we're able to show them that these

987
01:38:26,041 --> 01:38:27,625
other stories that you're talking about

988
01:38:27,625 --> 01:38:30,750
from small island nations would sell.

989
01:38:31,166 --> 01:38:33,500
I think they actually would be open to

990
01:38:33,500 --> 01:38:35,208
green lighting those movies.

991
01:38:35,250 --> 01:38:38,750
So Dark Lab, which I founded in 2020,

992
01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:43,291
really is inspired by old Hollywood and

993
01:38:43,291 --> 01:38:47,208
this idea of playing in the dark, the

994
01:38:47,208 --> 01:38:51,500
idea of those old studio stages.

995
01:38:52,250 --> 01:38:53,000
And again, that comes

996
01:38:53,000 --> 01:38:54,208
back to storytelling. Yes.

997
01:38:54,250 --> 01:38:57,666
And the power of storytelling because I

998
01:38:57,666 --> 01:39:00,083
think we need more climate movies. We

999
01:39:00,083 --> 01:39:05,041
need these stories that are

1000
01:39:05,041 --> 01:39:07,000
intergenerational about

1001
01:39:07,000 --> 01:39:10,125
climate in places like Guam.

1002
01:39:11,500 --> 01:39:13,916
And I don't know enough about those

1003
01:39:13,916 --> 01:39:17,416
Pacific islands, but I visited Tahiti. I

1004
01:39:17,416 --> 01:39:18,416
talked about it in the book

1005
01:39:18,416 --> 01:39:20,208
that was probably in 2023.

1006
01:39:20,250 --> 01:39:24,416
And I just my mind was blown to just

1007
01:39:24,416 --> 01:39:28,291
learn so much from individuals, some were

1008
01:39:28,291 --> 01:39:30,250
tour guides, but also

1009
01:39:30,250 --> 01:39:31,708
to learn from sharks.

1010
01:39:32,666 --> 01:39:35,000
And you mentioned shark week and I love

1011
01:39:35,000 --> 01:39:36,500
shark week as much as the

1012
01:39:36,500 --> 01:39:38,208
next person I'm tuned in.

1013
01:39:38,250 --> 01:39:42,041
But I think it's a real opportunity to

1014
01:39:42,041 --> 01:39:45,000
tell the climate crisis through sharks

1015
01:39:45,000 --> 01:39:49,458
because they are so incredible.

1016
01:39:50,375 --> 01:39:52,791
I don't even know how to swim, but I was

1017
01:39:52,791 --> 01:39:53,958
swimming with sharks in

1018
01:39:53,958 --> 01:39:55,208
Tahiti. That's amazing.

1019
01:39:56,250 --> 01:39:57,458
And just with learning from the

1020
01:39:57,458 --> 01:40:00,000
indigenous people there that they don't

1021
01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:04,291
fear the shark. It's just they're not

1022
01:40:04,291 --> 01:40:08,083
hunted. They don't attack humans in a

1023
01:40:08,083 --> 01:40:09,000
certain part of the reef.

1024
01:40:09,458 --> 01:40:11,625
And they're just hundreds of them

1025
01:40:11,625 --> 01:40:14,958
swimming around as well as stingrays and

1026
01:40:14,958 --> 01:40:18,208
that their cousins stingrays and sharks.

1027
01:40:18,250 --> 01:40:22,125
Like it was just it gave me so much hope.

1028
01:40:22,375 --> 01:40:25,500
It also helps me to confront my fear of

1029
01:40:25,500 --> 01:40:26,916
the ocean, which I

1030
01:40:26,916 --> 01:40:27,833
write about in the book.

1031
01:40:28,250 --> 01:40:31,375
But I would love to see more climate

1032
01:40:31,375 --> 01:40:33,333
storytelling from the perspective of

1033
01:40:33,333 --> 01:40:36,041
nonhuman ecologies. And I think this

1034
01:40:36,041 --> 01:40:39,208
could be a really great way to work

1035
01:40:39,208 --> 01:40:42,708
across these national boundaries because

1036
01:40:42,708 --> 01:40:45,458
there are sharks in the Caribbean and

1037
01:40:45,458 --> 01:40:46,208
there are sharks in the Pacific.

1038
01:40:46,250 --> 01:40:49,875
There are corals around like this

1039
01:40:49,875 --> 01:40:53,708
tropical belts of the world. I think if

1040
01:40:53,708 --> 01:40:56,208
we we look to mangroves, if we look to

1041
01:40:56,208 --> 01:40:58,375
different storytellers about this crisis,

1042
01:40:58,875 --> 01:41:00,166
then we may actually

1043
01:41:00,166 --> 01:41:01,208
get somewhere different.

1044
01:41:02,250 --> 01:41:04,875
Instead of just seeing humans as like the

1045
01:41:04,875 --> 01:41:07,208
protagonist of the climate crisis, like

1046
01:41:07,208 --> 01:41:11,125
will we survive? Like who is the we? And

1047
01:41:11,125 --> 01:41:15,125
I think it needs to include animals,

1048
01:41:15,125 --> 01:41:16,416
microbes, like everything.

1049
01:41:17,458 --> 01:41:19,125
Yeah, I almost feel like we'd be the

1050
01:41:19,125 --> 01:41:21,000
first to go. You know,

1051
01:41:21,000 --> 01:41:22,000
me compared to the rest.

1052
01:41:22,250 --> 01:41:24,583
Yeah, I mean, that's what's good. If we

1053
01:41:24,583 --> 01:41:26,458
if we do this, then we are the ones who

1054
01:41:26,458 --> 01:41:29,916
should go. But yeah, yeah, that's that's

1055
01:41:29,916 --> 01:41:31,000
that's really interesting.

1056
01:41:31,000 --> 01:41:34,166
So dark laboratory, you know, you started

1057
01:41:34,166 --> 01:41:35,791
your own own laboratory. How did this

1058
01:41:35,791 --> 01:41:37,500
start? Does it start with the appointment

1059
01:41:37,500 --> 01:41:40,625
of being an associate professor and then

1060
01:41:40,625 --> 01:41:42,708
you start or is this always an idea that

1061
01:41:42,708 --> 01:41:44,208
you had to start this laboratory?

1062
01:41:44,250 --> 01:41:47,708
So it started when I was an assistant

1063
01:41:47,708 --> 01:41:50,916
professor in 2020 at Cornell University.

1064
01:41:51,166 --> 01:41:56,458
And yeah, they have a lot more financial

1065
01:41:56,458 --> 01:41:59,833
resources than CUNY where I am, which is

1066
01:41:59,833 --> 01:42:01,916
a state institution. Yeah, but I'm very

1067
01:42:01,916 --> 01:42:05,291
glad to have brought those resources in

1068
01:42:05,291 --> 01:42:07,625
terms of founding the lab at a wealthy

1069
01:42:07,625 --> 01:42:12,083
institution like Cornell, which allowed

1070
01:42:12,083 --> 01:42:13,250
me to, yeah, fundraise.

1071
01:42:14,250 --> 01:42:18,583
So we started with $20,000 and from there

1072
01:42:18,583 --> 01:42:21,000
just began to build and to think

1073
01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:23,666
globally, because it was the early part

1074
01:42:23,666 --> 01:42:27,625
of the pandemic. And so much dynamism was

1075
01:42:27,625 --> 01:42:31,000
happening on the moon with podcasting

1076
01:42:31,000 --> 01:42:34,083
that it really felt like I could bring

1077
01:42:34,083 --> 01:42:36,708
together people that I knew from around

1078
01:42:36,708 --> 01:42:39,958
the globe to get to answer these

1079
01:42:39,958 --> 01:42:43,250
questions about the crossroads of stolen land and stolen land.

1080
01:42:44,250 --> 01:42:48,875
So, so yeah, our pillars are climate,

1081
01:42:49,375 --> 01:42:53,875
race and creative technology. And I

1082
01:42:53,875 --> 01:42:56,458
basically I'm just making a space we

1083
01:42:56,458 --> 01:42:59,291
we're on the 16th floor of Hunter

1084
01:42:59,291 --> 01:43:01,041
College, which is at 68th

1085
01:43:01,041 --> 01:43:02,208
and Lexington in Manhattan.

1086
01:43:02,250 --> 01:43:04,791
Okay, so we have this incredible view

1087
01:43:04,791 --> 01:43:09,625
city and I just invite folks to come and,

1088
01:43:09,625 --> 01:43:13,000
you know, share the story that they have

1089
01:43:13,000 --> 01:43:17,916
to tell. I love that. And if I can help

1090
01:43:17,916 --> 01:43:22,541
to put them in touch with technologists

1091
01:43:22,541 --> 01:43:25,000
who can find a creative way to tell it,

1092
01:43:25,333 --> 01:43:27,125
maybe it's going to be a TikTok video,

1093
01:43:27,125 --> 01:43:28,333
maybe it's going to be a

1094
01:43:28,333 --> 01:43:31,208
major feature film or a DJ set.

1095
01:43:31,250 --> 01:43:36,708
I'm a DJ as well. So I feel that there's

1096
01:43:36,708 --> 01:43:40,625
just many forms of storytelling. And

1097
01:43:40,625 --> 01:43:43,708
yeah, we need more climate stories to

1098
01:43:43,708 --> 01:43:46,500
exist. So the lab is here for my

1099
01:43:46,500 --> 01:43:52,416
students, but also for people who are who

1100
01:43:52,416 --> 01:43:54,416
don't have college degrees and are

1101
01:43:54,416 --> 01:43:56,750
outside of the Academy, because we need

1102
01:43:56,750 --> 01:44:00,000
to embrace everyone to

1103
01:44:00,000 --> 01:44:00,208
create these solutions.

1104
01:44:00,250 --> 01:44:04,083
I think this is really interesting. You

1105
01:44:04,083 --> 01:44:06,166
know, when I hear someone's a professor

1106
01:44:06,166 --> 01:44:08,208
and they have a lab, you know, just with

1107
01:44:08,208 --> 01:44:10,208
with my experience with research and

1108
01:44:10,208 --> 01:44:12,166
science and you know, I've never been a

1109
01:44:12,166 --> 01:44:14,208
professor. I've been part of labs as a

1110
01:44:14,208 --> 01:44:16,375
graduate student, so forth. But you know,

1111
01:44:16,375 --> 01:44:18,708
it's always very academic, you know, it's

1112
01:44:18,708 --> 01:44:20,541
very siloed. It's like, okay, get my

1113
01:44:20,541 --> 01:44:22,375
research money. I'm going to do what I

1114
01:44:22,375 --> 01:44:25,500
can for for the science. Some of it's

1115
01:44:25,500 --> 01:44:27,541
applicable, maybe, but some of them it's

1116
01:44:27,541 --> 01:44:29,208
not. It's just pure science. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's just pure science.

1117
01:44:29,250 --> 01:44:30,125
And there's nothing wrong with that. I

1118
01:44:30,125 --> 01:44:32,375
think it's really great. But I feel like

1119
01:44:32,375 --> 01:44:34,041
when people when people think about

1120
01:44:34,041 --> 01:44:36,000
academic institutions are thinking about,

1121
01:44:36,375 --> 01:44:38,083
well, you know, funding and then

1122
01:44:38,083 --> 01:44:39,958
perpetuating sort of the universities so

1123
01:44:39,958 --> 01:44:41,333
that they can get funding and come up

1124
01:44:41,333 --> 01:44:42,166
with products and

1125
01:44:42,166 --> 01:44:43,708
it's very negative view.

1126
01:44:44,250 --> 01:44:47,041
I feel like your lab is very different

1127
01:44:47,041 --> 01:44:50,750
than that. It's not just about trying to,

1128
01:44:50,750 --> 01:44:55,125
you know, feed the university money. It's

1129
01:44:55,125 --> 01:44:59,375
how do we fix things? How do we help

1130
01:44:59,375 --> 01:45:02,041
people? Like it's almost like you're a

1131
01:45:02,041 --> 01:45:03,958
nonprofit organization and academic

1132
01:45:03,958 --> 01:45:05,208
institution in a way.

1133
01:45:05,250 --> 01:45:07,875
Because, yeah, because you're, you're,

1134
01:45:07,875 --> 01:45:09,500
you're finding ways just from what you

1135
01:45:09,500 --> 01:45:11,291
told me from the research that I did is

1136
01:45:11,291 --> 01:45:14,875
like, I'm, we're trying to get people to

1137
01:45:14,875 --> 01:45:17,000
understand other people and trying to

1138
01:45:17,000 --> 01:45:19,000
find pathways to get those stories out

1139
01:45:19,000 --> 01:45:21,875
and get the get you to that, to that,

1140
01:45:21,875 --> 01:45:24,166
that area so that you can, you can listen

1141
01:45:24,166 --> 01:45:26,041
like a podcasting as we discussed before

1142
01:45:26,041 --> 01:45:29,541
we press record is a very, very good way

1143
01:45:29,541 --> 01:45:31,208
to democratizing storytelling.

1144
01:45:31,791 --> 01:45:33,375
You can, you can start a podcast on

1145
01:45:33,375 --> 01:45:34,666
anything you can if you want to learn the

1146
01:45:34,666 --> 01:45:36,875
banjo, you can actually go and learn the

1147
01:45:36,875 --> 01:45:38,458
banjo from podcasts. There's a podcast

1148
01:45:38,458 --> 01:45:40,625
about learning a bed to be able to have

1149
01:45:40,625 --> 01:45:42,916
that platform to tell stories and do it

1150
01:45:42,916 --> 01:45:44,750
in an academic setting and inviting

1151
01:45:44,750 --> 01:45:46,875
people up and just be like, yes, we're,

1152
01:45:46,875 --> 01:45:48,083
we're a college, we're a university.

1153
01:45:48,250 --> 01:45:50,791
This is not a scary place. This is a

1154
01:45:50,791 --> 01:45:52,458
place that safe. It's a place that you

1155
01:45:52,458 --> 01:45:54,875
can tell your story that you can be

1156
01:45:54,875 --> 01:45:57,500
vulnerable that you can help other people

1157
01:45:57,500 --> 01:45:59,500
understand where you're coming from so

1158
01:45:59,500 --> 01:46:02,208
that if you need it, you can get the help

1159
01:46:02,208 --> 01:46:04,916
to is that is that the goal? Is that what

1160
01:46:04,916 --> 01:46:05,958
you're trying to and that's very

1161
01:46:05,958 --> 01:46:08,791
different. And for a university to, you

1162
01:46:08,791 --> 01:46:10,541
know, be a home for that

1163
01:46:10,541 --> 01:46:12,625
is pretty cool to do, right?

1164
01:46:13,833 --> 01:46:17,125
Yeah, thank you. I, I struggle every day

1165
01:46:17,125 --> 01:46:20,000
as the executive director. Yeah, to

1166
01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:22,125
translate that very mission to

1167
01:46:22,125 --> 01:46:24,083
universities. So I should have you come

1168
01:46:24,083 --> 01:46:26,708
with me and explain that to me.

1169
01:46:26,791 --> 01:46:31,375
Because, um, yeah, it's, it's really an

1170
01:46:31,375 --> 01:46:34,041
uphill battle, but it's so worth it. And

1171
01:46:34,041 --> 01:46:37,250
when my students come to the physical

1172
01:46:37,250 --> 01:46:38,916
space of the lab, we

1173
01:46:38,916 --> 01:46:40,375
have like two small rooms.

1174
01:46:41,250 --> 01:46:42,625
And it still means so much to have that

1175
01:46:42,625 --> 01:46:44,208
real estate in a place like New York

1176
01:46:44,208 --> 01:46:46,625
City. Um, they see all the sound

1177
01:46:46,625 --> 01:46:48,166
equipment and they want to learn how to

1178
01:46:48,166 --> 01:46:51,125
podcast. So that's why it was amazing to

1179
01:46:51,125 --> 01:46:53,791
learn about the platforms you're using,

1180
01:46:53,791 --> 01:46:55,666
because it's just so

1181
01:46:55,666 --> 01:46:57,375
empowering to students.

1182
01:46:58,250 --> 01:47:00,125
And I think within a semester, I'm

1183
01:47:00,125 --> 01:47:02,291
telling them you can learn to podcast,

1184
01:47:02,541 --> 01:47:05,541
you can have a podcast. And obviously,

1185
01:47:05,541 --> 01:47:08,125
there's a range of budgets for course how

1186
01:47:08,125 --> 01:47:10,916
to do it. But yeah, in a very basic way,

1187
01:47:11,125 --> 01:47:13,375
you can. Oh, yeah, I think it's almost

1188
01:47:13,375 --> 01:47:14,708
anyone could do this.

1189
01:47:45,250 --> 01:47:50,416
So, yeah, we're celebrating that victory

1190
01:47:50,416 --> 01:47:54,708
because you need that capital to really

1191
01:47:54,708 --> 01:47:57,375
create a foundation and I'm learning so

1192
01:47:57,375 --> 01:48:01,000
much from labs like science labs about

1193
01:48:01,000 --> 01:48:04,708
the structure. So probably like the ones

1194
01:48:04,708 --> 01:48:09,125
that you were in as a grad student about

1195
01:48:09,125 --> 01:48:12,041
hourly wages, weekly lab meetings, all of

1196
01:48:12,041 --> 01:48:12,208
these different things.

1197
01:48:12,250 --> 01:48:15,208
And also about co-authoring because in

1198
01:48:15,208 --> 01:48:17,500
the humanities, we just, it's a single

1199
01:48:17,500 --> 01:48:21,833
author publication, but I was just

1200
01:48:21,833 --> 01:48:25,125
excited to think about co-authoring and

1201
01:48:25,125 --> 01:48:28,125
we published in 2021, an

1202
01:48:28,125 --> 01:48:29,916
article with 32 co-authors.

1203
01:48:30,250 --> 01:48:31,000
That's amazing.

1204
01:48:31,750 --> 01:48:33,833
Yeah, on speculative cartography and it's

1205
01:48:33,833 --> 01:48:35,708
peer reviewed. And I think this really

1206
01:48:35,708 --> 01:48:40,625
helped a lot of the authors to get jobs

1207
01:48:40,625 --> 01:48:44,708
in the Academy. So I'm really trying to

1208
01:48:44,708 --> 01:48:47,958
help to credential folks to show that

1209
01:48:47,958 --> 01:48:52,291
this research is rigorous. And what I

1210
01:48:52,291 --> 01:48:56,541
will say is that it has to

1211
01:48:56,541 --> 01:48:58,625
exist beyond the university.

1212
01:48:59,250 --> 01:49:01,583
So Hunter College is a great home

1213
01:49:01,583 --> 01:49:04,791
physically for the lab. But we're also

1214
01:49:04,791 --> 01:49:08,166
really grateful to the new museum, which

1215
01:49:08,166 --> 01:49:10,500
has given us space. And I think it just

1216
01:49:10,500 --> 01:49:12,625
makes sense to bring different cultural

1217
01:49:12,625 --> 01:49:15,708
institutions together in terms of the

1218
01:49:15,708 --> 01:49:16,833
funding so that I'm not

1219
01:49:16,833 --> 01:49:18,541
answering to any one source.

1220
01:49:19,250 --> 01:49:23,666
Yes, because just to be transparent. I

1221
01:49:23,666 --> 01:49:24,791
don't think they should mind that I'm

1222
01:49:24,791 --> 01:49:27,458
saying this, but when I brought the Ford

1223
01:49:27,458 --> 01:49:30,250
Foundation grant to Hunter College, so

1224
01:49:30,250 --> 01:49:32,125
the City University of New York, they

1225
01:49:32,125 --> 01:49:33,541
told me that the overhead

1226
01:49:33,541 --> 01:49:35,375
that they would take is 60%.

1227
01:49:37,666 --> 01:49:38,375
I could not believe.

1228
01:49:39,250 --> 01:49:40,666
It's crazy, right?

1229
01:49:41,166 --> 01:49:43,541
I couldn't believe it. This is how grants

1230
01:49:43,541 --> 01:49:46,500
work at universities. So they're not the

1231
01:49:46,500 --> 01:49:48,000
only one. Where does that money even go?

1232
01:49:48,291 --> 01:49:51,333
Yeah, but this is pretty typical. And I

1233
01:49:51,333 --> 01:49:53,791
think most students are not aware of how

1234
01:49:53,791 --> 01:49:57,458
all of this works. So I just try to make

1235
01:49:57,458 --> 01:49:59,791
things transparent about how money works

1236
01:49:59,791 --> 01:50:03,208
within universities, but also, I guess

1237
01:50:03,208 --> 01:50:05,208
the lab travels with me where I go.

1238
01:50:05,250 --> 01:50:09,708
And it's me just trying to fund people's

1239
01:50:09,708 --> 01:50:11,708
projects, who've had artists and

1240
01:50:11,708 --> 01:50:16,625
residents who really are artists. But

1241
01:50:16,625 --> 01:50:18,375
what I found, especially in developing

1242
01:50:18,375 --> 01:50:21,833
countries, like the climate activists are

1243
01:50:21,833 --> 01:50:24,291
climate artists. They're the ones

1244
01:50:24,291 --> 01:50:26,458
protecting the reef, photographing the

1245
01:50:26,458 --> 01:50:30,041
reef, protesting against all inclusive

1246
01:50:30,041 --> 01:50:31,916
hotels that are damaging the reefs.

1247
01:50:32,250 --> 01:50:36,291
And if I can provide money to support

1248
01:50:36,291 --> 01:50:40,333
their profession, I feel like that goes a

1249
01:50:40,333 --> 01:50:43,291
long way because artists don't have a

1250
01:50:43,291 --> 01:50:47,041
pension or health care. And these are the

1251
01:50:47,041 --> 01:50:48,500
people on the front line of the climate

1252
01:50:48,500 --> 01:50:50,708
crisis, especially in island nations.

1253
01:50:51,250 --> 01:50:53,041
And so we've been able to support people

1254
01:50:53,041 --> 01:50:57,375
in Trinidad and St. Vincent. And yeah, I

1255
01:50:57,375 --> 01:50:59,333
feel lucky to be able to do this work,

1256
01:50:59,333 --> 01:51:01,041
but it's a lot of administrative work

1257
01:51:01,041 --> 01:51:03,833
that it does. Yeah, it's not easy.

1258
01:51:06,250 --> 01:51:07,666
I've seen that too. I worked for

1259
01:51:07,666 --> 01:51:09,666
Fisheries and Oceans Canada here in

1260
01:51:09,666 --> 01:51:11,666
Canada for the federal government. And I

1261
01:51:11,666 --> 01:51:13,416
just, I live just by the Great Lakes. So

1262
01:51:13,416 --> 01:51:15,625
we studied the Great Lakes Laboratory.

1263
01:51:16,458 --> 01:51:18,791
And it was a science section of the

1264
01:51:18,791 --> 01:51:23,541
government. And my boss was a PI. I was a

1265
01:51:23,541 --> 01:51:27,000
scientist. And I had two different bosses

1266
01:51:27,000 --> 01:51:28,958
within that. And I remember both of them

1267
01:51:28,958 --> 01:51:31,166
saying, they're like, they turned to me.

1268
01:51:31,250 --> 01:51:32,625
And I remember one of them, my first one,

1269
01:51:32,875 --> 01:51:33,875
Nick Mandrake, he turned to me, he's

1270
01:51:33,875 --> 01:51:35,541
like, I'm so jealous of you. I'm like,

1271
01:51:35,541 --> 01:51:37,416
what do you mean? I'm like, you get this

1272
01:51:37,416 --> 01:51:39,833
prestigious position. You know, you get

1273
01:51:39,833 --> 01:51:41,791
all this money, like you get a good comfy

1274
01:51:41,791 --> 01:51:42,916
job. And you've been there with the

1275
01:51:42,916 --> 01:51:44,125
government for a long time. He's like,

1276
01:51:44,583 --> 01:51:46,208
yeah, but I'm in all these meetings. And

1277
01:51:46,208 --> 01:51:47,875
I'm doing administrative stuff. And I'm

1278
01:51:47,875 --> 01:51:49,541
doing this and I'm doing that. And he

1279
01:51:49,541 --> 01:51:50,958
goes, I never actually get to do the fun

1280
01:51:50,958 --> 01:51:53,000
science that I give you all this work to

1281
01:51:53,000 --> 01:51:54,666
do. And I'm like, yeah, you're right. I

1282
01:51:54,666 --> 01:51:56,375
do get that. That's why I enjoy my job.

1283
01:51:56,375 --> 01:51:57,625
And he's like, yeah, he goes, if I could

1284
01:51:57,625 --> 01:51:59,083
do it, you wouldn't have a job. But I

1285
01:51:59,083 --> 01:52:00,666
need to go to meetings and all this

1286
01:52:00,666 --> 01:52:01,208
stuff. And I'm like, yeah, I'm doing administrative stuff. And I'm doing administrative stuff. And I'm doing this and I'm

1287
01:52:01,250 --> 01:52:02,333
doing this stuff, and I'm doing this and I'm doing this and I'm doing

1288
01:52:02,333 --> 01:52:02,541
this stuff. And he's like, wow.

1289
01:52:02,541 --> 01:52:04,416
I need to collaborate with other labs and

1290
01:52:04,416 --> 01:52:06,166
all this stuff. And it was with

1291
01:52:06,166 --> 01:52:07,750
government to just as as

1292
01:52:07,750 --> 01:52:09,625
much as universities, you everything's

1293
01:52:09,625 --> 01:52:11,041
administrative. I always used to joke.

1294
01:52:11,250 --> 01:52:12,000
They needed to fill up

1295
01:52:12,000 --> 01:52:13,625
paperwork just to go to the bathroom and

1296
01:52:13,625 --> 01:52:15,000
stuff. Yeah, government's

1297
01:52:15,000 --> 01:52:18,500
like, oh, yeah, and it takes away.

1298
01:52:18,500 --> 01:52:20,750
And I guess like, in a way, it's it's the

1299
01:52:20,750 --> 01:52:24,416
price you pay for the home

1300
01:52:24,416 --> 01:52:26,125
you have. And I guess that

1301
01:52:30,458 --> 01:52:34,333
"Okay, that's a lot, that's a big

1302
01:52:34,333 --> 01:52:35,541
percentage you're taking

1303
01:52:35,625 --> 01:52:37,875
"and just for the home,

1304
01:52:37,875 --> 01:52:39,125
okay, I get it, I get it."

1305
01:52:39,208 --> 01:52:40,541
And then you have to,

1306
01:52:40,750 --> 01:52:42,833
it's the way it goes

1307
01:52:43,125 --> 01:52:45,666
and there's no other way to

1308
01:52:45,666 --> 01:52:47,333
see it unless you get outside,

1309
01:52:47,333 --> 01:52:48,416
like outside funny or you go

1310
01:52:48,416 --> 01:52:51,041
outside the university enclave

1311
01:52:51,041 --> 01:52:54,333
but then you lose the quick

1312
01:52:54,333 --> 01:52:55,875
connections that you make,

1313
01:52:55,875 --> 01:52:57,083
like you talked about like the biology

1314
01:52:57,375 --> 01:52:58,083
and everything like that.

1315
01:52:58,291 --> 01:53:01,083
It's a tug of war of sorts

1316
01:53:01,083 --> 01:53:02,916
and a lot of people

1317
01:53:02,916 --> 01:53:03,750
don't talk about that.

1318
01:53:03,750 --> 01:53:05,291
I'm glad you did, you'd mentioned it

1319
01:53:05,291 --> 01:53:06,500
because it's really

1320
01:53:06,500 --> 01:53:08,791
interesting to be able to say it.

1321
01:53:09,000 --> 01:53:09,750
But essentially you

1322
01:53:09,750 --> 01:53:13,791
are a storytelling studio

1323
01:53:14,458 --> 01:53:15,625
that provides different

1324
01:53:15,625 --> 01:53:17,166
ways of telling that stories,

1325
01:53:17,166 --> 01:53:18,083
whether it's through art,

1326
01:53:18,083 --> 01:53:20,333
whether it's through photography,

1327
01:53:20,708 --> 01:53:22,625
videography, podcasting.

1328
01:53:23,541 --> 01:53:25,125
It's a place where people can go

1329
01:53:25,333 --> 01:53:27,291
and be able to tell their story

1330
01:53:27,458 --> 01:53:29,375
and be able to do that.

1331
01:53:29,375 --> 01:53:31,083
So I have some ideas on that.

1332
01:53:31,083 --> 01:53:33,083
Maybe it might be a little bit better,

1333
01:53:33,083 --> 01:53:35,166
but I just love this and

1334
01:53:35,166 --> 01:53:36,166
I love this conversation.

1335
01:53:36,541 --> 01:53:37,875
I just want to, I have one

1336
01:53:37,875 --> 01:53:40,333
last question about the book,

1337
01:53:40,750 --> 01:53:43,416
the title, it's "Dark

1338
01:53:43,416 --> 01:53:44,791
Laboratory on Columbus,"

1339
01:53:45,125 --> 01:53:48,708
which is an interesting figure in himself

1340
01:53:49,333 --> 01:53:50,583
in terms of his history

1341
01:53:50,583 --> 01:53:51,916
of what we were taught

1342
01:53:52,166 --> 01:53:53,000
when I was a kid.

1343
01:53:53,000 --> 01:53:53,666
I'm not sure if you had

1344
01:53:53,666 --> 01:53:54,666
the same kind of teaching

1345
01:53:54,958 --> 01:53:55,916
because you had a very

1346
01:53:55,916 --> 01:53:57,250
different background,

1347
01:53:57,750 --> 01:53:59,500
but also talking about the Caribbean

1348
01:53:59,500 --> 01:54:00,458
and then talking about

1349
01:54:00,458 --> 01:54:01,583
just like the climate crisis.

1350
01:54:01,833 --> 01:54:04,875
So why lead off with a person like

1351
01:54:04,875 --> 01:54:07,333
Columbus in your title?

1352
01:54:09,291 --> 01:54:12,875
Really because he arrived in Guana Hani,

1353
01:54:13,125 --> 01:54:16,291
which is the Bahamas in 1492.

1354
01:54:17,000 --> 01:54:21,000
And I just think that Americans don't

1355
01:54:21,000 --> 01:54:21,916
even see the Caribbean

1356
01:54:21,916 --> 01:54:26,416
beyond for vacation often.

1357
01:54:27,500 --> 01:54:33,041
And they conflate the Mayflower with his

1358
01:54:33,041 --> 01:54:34,625
three ships and that voyage.

1359
01:54:35,125 --> 01:54:37,166
So every year when they

1360
01:54:37,166 --> 01:54:38,625
celebrate Columbus Day,

1361
01:54:39,416 --> 01:54:41,708
they're not even thinking about the fact

1362
01:54:41,708 --> 01:54:43,000
that he never set foot

1363
01:54:43,000 --> 01:54:45,791
on the continental United States.

1364
01:54:46,166 --> 01:54:49,291
So I wanted to just confront folks with

1365
01:54:49,291 --> 01:54:50,666
that fact in the subtitle

1366
01:54:51,500 --> 01:54:52,833
and to kind of conjure

1367
01:54:52,833 --> 01:54:55,500
him as this figure who,

1368
01:54:58,250 --> 01:55:00,041
you know, how do I even put it?

1369
01:55:00,041 --> 01:55:01,375
In 1493, he brought

1370
01:55:01,375 --> 01:55:03,041
sugar cane to the Caribbean.

1371
01:55:04,000 --> 01:55:06,041
So we have to begin to

1372
01:55:06,041 --> 01:55:07,500
understand plantation,

1373
01:55:09,333 --> 01:55:11,666
slavery, that economy,

1374
01:55:12,333 --> 01:55:15,708
chattel through the

1375
01:55:15,708 --> 01:55:17,000
notion of what it means to

1376
01:55:20,791 --> 01:55:22,958
enact monocrop agriculture.

1377
01:55:23,708 --> 01:55:26,333
So the violence against the soil just

1378
01:55:26,333 --> 01:55:27,625
can't be overstated.

1379
01:55:29,458 --> 01:55:30,375
Because before that,

1380
01:55:30,375 --> 01:55:31,875
these islands were forests.

1381
01:55:32,750 --> 01:55:35,666
So the deforestation for me is a major

1382
01:55:35,666 --> 01:55:37,500
part of this cascading

1383
01:55:37,500 --> 01:55:38,791
of the climate crisis

1384
01:55:38,791 --> 01:55:40,541
that I think people overlook.

1385
01:55:41,541 --> 01:55:43,708
They just imagine these like desert

1386
01:55:43,708 --> 01:55:46,750
islands with palm trees and sand.

1387
01:55:46,750 --> 01:55:51,125
But there were, you know, thick, vast

1388
01:55:51,125 --> 01:55:52,708
forests that were...

1389
01:55:52,708 --> 01:55:54,416
Mango forests. Yeah, mangroves.

1390
01:55:54,750 --> 01:55:55,125
Protecting the

1391
01:55:55,125 --> 01:55:57,125
coastlines and yeah. Exactly.

1392
01:55:57,541 --> 01:56:01,500
So I've read his journals and the

1393
01:56:01,500 --> 01:56:02,500
accounts of the time

1394
01:56:02,500 --> 01:56:04,500
and it was just fascinating reading about

1395
01:56:04,500 --> 01:56:06,041
mangroves that he encountered

1396
01:56:06,750 --> 01:56:09,958
around the shore of those

1397
01:56:09,958 --> 01:56:11,750
current day Bahamas islands

1398
01:56:11,750 --> 01:56:15,208
and how the queen and king of Spain,

1399
01:56:15,916 --> 01:56:16,666
Ferdinand and Isabella,

1400
01:56:17,250 --> 01:56:22,125
they sent him to reap that mangrove wood

1401
01:56:22,125 --> 01:56:24,666
for the shipbuilding economy

1402
01:56:24,666 --> 01:56:29,375
because that wood is waterproof because

1403
01:56:29,375 --> 01:56:31,083
the mangroves grow out there

1404
01:56:31,083 --> 01:56:35,166
and convert the salt from ocean water

1405
01:56:35,166 --> 01:56:38,750
into water that they can use to sustain.

1406
01:56:38,791 --> 01:56:42,250
So I think it's just about drawing our

1407
01:56:42,250 --> 01:56:44,625
attention to those extractive economies

1408
01:56:44,625 --> 01:56:47,000
from the 15th century.

1409
01:56:47,875 --> 01:56:50,000
And we still see it today. Yeah.

1410
01:56:50,458 --> 01:56:53,125
Like what happened with Maui, not even

1411
01:56:53,125 --> 01:56:54,666
two years ago, right? Yes, exactly.

1412
01:56:54,666 --> 01:56:57,916
That was because of an invasive crop that

1413
01:56:57,916 --> 01:56:59,208
still continues to do.

1414
01:56:59,208 --> 01:57:00,666
They just never took it, they just never

1415
01:57:00,666 --> 01:57:01,708
started cutting it down.

1416
01:57:01,708 --> 01:57:04,000
They just let it run wild. And that was

1417
01:57:04,000 --> 01:57:04,958
the reason, that was

1418
01:57:04,958 --> 01:57:05,750
the fuel for the fire

1419
01:57:05,750 --> 01:57:07,791
because it got dried out,

1420
01:57:07,791 --> 01:57:08,958
because of the climate crisis.

1421
01:57:09,875 --> 01:57:12,541
It's unreal to see that even

1422
01:57:12,541 --> 01:57:14,750
though we know the history,

1423
01:57:15,708 --> 01:57:17,791
not everybody knows the history, but it

1424
01:57:17,791 --> 01:57:19,333
continues to repeat itself.

1425
01:57:19,916 --> 01:57:21,083
And again, it goes back to

1426
01:57:21,083 --> 01:57:22,750
storytelling to understand this.

1427
01:57:23,500 --> 01:57:25,416
If you think about it, there's an entire

1428
01:57:25,416 --> 01:57:27,208
major holiday in the US

1429
01:57:27,208 --> 01:57:30,583
that's surrounded by Columbus coming to

1430
01:57:30,583 --> 01:57:32,750
the Bahamas, not even the US.

1431
01:57:33,708 --> 01:57:35,541
Yeah, and it's like a huge, it's almost

1432
01:57:35,541 --> 01:57:37,208
bigger than Christmas in some cases.

1433
01:57:37,750 --> 01:57:42,208
And it's all based on a bad story tell.

1434
01:57:43,125 --> 01:57:44,416
Exactly. He thought he was

1435
01:57:44,416 --> 01:57:46,375
from China. Yeah, exactly.

1436
01:57:47,375 --> 01:57:49,041
I just think this whole

1437
01:57:49,041 --> 01:57:50,791
discussion has been fascinating.

1438
01:57:51,750 --> 01:57:54,083
I hope it's the first of many that we can

1439
01:57:54,083 --> 01:57:55,583
have on this podcast with you.

1440
01:57:55,875 --> 01:57:57,833
I'd love to invite you back to discuss

1441
01:57:57,833 --> 01:57:58,750
more of individual projects.

1442
01:57:58,750 --> 01:58:01,250
Because I know you talked to so many

1443
01:58:01,250 --> 01:58:02,625
people and we really got an overview of

1444
01:58:02,625 --> 01:58:03,208
the book, but I would

1445
01:58:03,208 --> 01:58:04,375
really love to dive in.

1446
01:58:04,958 --> 01:58:08,416
I'll put the link to the book now. I know

1447
01:58:08,416 --> 01:58:10,375
on your site it says pre-order, but

1448
01:58:10,375 --> 01:58:11,500
you're saying it's been out

1449
01:58:11,500 --> 01:58:12,625
for a week right now, right?

1450
01:58:12,625 --> 01:58:14,958
Yeah, so now you can order it. Now you

1451
01:58:14,958 --> 01:58:16,583
can order it. Highly recommend it.

1452
01:58:16,583 --> 01:58:19,583
I'm going to order a copy myself and I'm

1453
01:58:19,583 --> 01:58:20,916
looking forward to diving into this.

1454
01:58:21,250 --> 01:58:23,750
So again, Tao, thank you so much for

1455
01:58:23,750 --> 01:58:25,166
joining us on this episode.

1456
01:58:25,666 --> 01:58:26,791
And again, we're looking

1457
01:58:26,791 --> 01:58:27,750
forward to having you back.

1458
01:58:28,750 --> 01:58:29,916
Thank you, Andrew, and I

1459
01:58:29,916 --> 01:58:31,458
would be very happy to come back.

1460
01:58:32,125 --> 01:58:33,458
Thank you, Tao, for joining us on today's

1461
01:58:33,458 --> 01:58:34,500
episode of the How to

1462
01:58:34,500 --> 01:58:35,666
Protect the Ocean podcast.

1463
01:58:36,750 --> 01:58:37,958
I had to take a

1464
01:58:37,958 --> 01:58:39,916
breath. That was so much fun.

1465
01:58:40,625 --> 01:58:43,041
I really love doing interviews. I know a

1466
01:58:43,041 --> 01:58:45,208
lot of times they're longer and people

1467
01:58:45,208 --> 01:58:47,250
don't always listen to them all the way.

1468
01:58:47,250 --> 01:58:48,916
And I get that. You got 20 minute commute

1469
01:58:48,916 --> 01:58:50,875
or 20 minute walk with your dogs or

1470
01:58:50,875 --> 01:58:52,583
whatever you're doing cleaning the house

1471
01:58:52,583 --> 01:58:53,750
or your apartment or wherever you're living.

1472
01:58:53,791 --> 01:58:56,833
And you don't necessarily have time to

1473
01:58:56,833 --> 01:58:58,000
listen to all this, but this is the one

1474
01:58:58,000 --> 01:58:58,708
that you're going to want

1475
01:58:58,708 --> 01:58:59,541
to listen to all of them.

1476
01:58:59,541 --> 01:59:01,041
You want to listen to all of them all the

1477
01:59:01,041 --> 01:59:02,166
way through, but you're going to want to

1478
01:59:02,166 --> 01:59:03,250
listen to this one all the way through.

1479
01:59:03,458 --> 01:59:05,208
It's just a phenomenal interview. It

1480
01:59:05,208 --> 01:59:07,708
really starts. We really get into talking

1481
01:59:07,708 --> 01:59:11,958
about how looking at climate change and

1482
01:59:11,958 --> 01:59:14,166
climate crisis and climate action as well

1483
01:59:14,166 --> 01:59:16,375
as ocean conservation action affects

1484
01:59:16,375 --> 01:59:17,333
communities and how

1485
01:59:17,333 --> 01:59:17,750
communities need to be a part of it.

1486
01:59:17,875 --> 01:59:20,666
All communities need to be a part of it.

1487
01:59:20,833 --> 01:59:23,333
And we talk a lot about how the narrative

1488
01:59:23,333 --> 01:59:25,375
around climate change is really about

1489
01:59:25,375 --> 01:59:28,875
limiting greenhouse gases, which

1490
01:59:28,875 --> 01:59:31,083
understandably is a big part of it.

1491
01:59:31,083 --> 01:59:33,958
But we don't get the stories of how it

1492
01:59:33,958 --> 01:59:35,666
affects different communities. We just

1493
01:59:35,666 --> 01:59:38,000
kind of get it all from sort of one

1494
01:59:38,000 --> 01:59:39,708
community that we think about, whether

1495
01:59:39,708 --> 01:59:41,583
it's your own community or sort of like

1496
01:59:41,583 --> 01:59:43,708
this white community, western community

1497
01:59:43,708 --> 01:59:44,750
that we often talk about.

1498
01:59:44,750 --> 01:59:48,375
And a lot of the other communities within

1499
01:59:48,375 --> 01:59:49,916
North America, within the US, within

1500
01:59:49,916 --> 01:59:52,625
Canada, within Mexico, they all get lost

1501
01:59:52,625 --> 01:59:53,916
and in and around the world, they get

1502
01:59:53,916 --> 01:59:56,708
lost in the shuffle of that narrative.

1503
01:59:57,208 --> 02:00:00,000
And that's a travesty. And I think what

1504
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:03,458
TAO has set out to do to be able to bring

1505
02:00:03,458 --> 02:00:05,916
storytelling to platforms that you can

1506
02:00:05,916 --> 02:00:08,666
get access to that are freely accessible

1507
02:00:08,666 --> 02:00:12,041
to be able to provide a space within

1508
02:00:12,041 --> 02:00:13,750
within Hunter to have people come in and to be able to get access to that.

1509
02:00:14,750 --> 02:00:15,000
I think what it's going to be a lot of fun to bring people in
the box, is having a conversation about it and then tell

1510
02:00:15,000 --> 02:00:17,875
their stories. I think it's powerful. It

1511
02:00:17,875 --> 02:00:20,500
is so powerful and empowers people to get

1512
02:00:20,500 --> 02:00:22,791
their story out there for people to other

1513
02:00:22,791 --> 02:00:24,291
people to listen. And I'm looking forward

1514
02:00:24,291 --> 02:00:26,125
to hearing what she has going on.

1515
02:00:26,875 --> 02:00:28,000
And it's going to be a lot of fun. So

1516
02:00:28,000 --> 02:00:30,375
that's today's episode. I gonna put the

1517
02:00:30,375 --> 02:00:32,375
link to the book. If you want to buy it,

1518
02:00:32,375 --> 02:00:34,166
you can go ahead and click on that link.

1519
02:00:34,166 --> 02:00:35,250
There's different options to buy.

1520
02:00:36,791 --> 02:00:37,458
follow

1521
02:00:37,875 --> 02:00:39,916
Tao on her different social media sites

1522
02:00:39,916 --> 02:00:41,375
I'll put those links up as well

1523
02:00:41,375 --> 02:00:42,666
And of course if you have any questions

1524
02:00:42,666 --> 02:00:44,166
or comments on this podcast

1525
02:00:44,166 --> 02:00:46,041
You can leave it in the comments below on

1526
02:00:46,041 --> 02:00:47,583
the YouTube channel on Spotify

1527
02:00:47,583 --> 02:00:49,000
And if you're listening to this through

1528
02:00:49,000 --> 02:00:49,708
an audio podcast,

1529
02:00:49,708 --> 02:00:51,583
obviously, you know, I love you

1530
02:00:51,583 --> 02:00:53,000
I love you for it because we started off

1531
02:00:53,000 --> 02:00:54,625
on audio. We continue on audio. It's one

1532
02:00:54,625 --> 02:00:55,666
of my favorite platforms

1533
02:00:56,041 --> 02:00:58,833
Please sit me out hit me up and DM me on

1534
02:00:58,833 --> 02:01:01,041
how to protect the ocean on Instagram at

1535
02:01:01,041 --> 02:01:02,125
how to protect the ocean

1536
02:01:02,125 --> 02:01:04,250
That's at how to protect the ocean. Let

1537
02:01:04,250 --> 02:01:05,208
me know your questions or comments

1538
02:01:05,333 --> 02:01:07,500
I'd love to hear from you about this

1539
02:01:07,500 --> 02:01:09,250
episode and any episode that we put out

1540
02:01:09,250 --> 02:01:11,000
But that's it for today's episode of the

1541
02:01:11,000 --> 02:01:12,208
how to protect the ocean podcast. I'm

1542
02:01:12,208 --> 02:01:13,541
your host, Angelo and have a great day

1543
02:01:13,541 --> 02:01:14,083
We'll talk to you next

1544
02:01:14,083 --> 02:01:15,291
time and happy conservation

How Storytelling Connects People and Climate Change | Tao Leigh Goffe Interview

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