How to Protect Tuna: Insights from ISSF’s Gala Moreno on Sustainable Fisheries

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What is the status of Tuna

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conservation?

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That's going to be the focus on

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today's episode of the How to

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Protect the Ocean podcast,

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especially when it comes to

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sustainable fisheries.

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On the podcast today, my guest,

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Dr. Galla Moreno from the

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International Seafood

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Sustainability Foundation is here

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to talk about fish aggregation

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devices and how they've improved

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over time to actually become

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a data storing and

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capability of learning more about

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oceanography on the high seas and

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to be able to even detect

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which species is below that fish

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aggregation devices.

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We're going to talk about what fads are

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and how they play a role in conserving

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tuna fish in commercial fishing on this

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episode of the How to

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Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey, everybody.

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Welcome back to another exciting episode

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of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is

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the podcast where you find out what's

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happening with the ocean,

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how you can speak up for the ocean, what

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you can do to live for a

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better ocean by taking action.

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If you want to know more about like, hey,

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is this tuna in my poke bowl sustainable?

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Like, is it caught sustainably?

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Is it something that I should be eating

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or is it something

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that shouldn't be eating?

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What constitutes as sustainable when we

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talk about tuna commercial fishing?

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And you've heard probably a lot of

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different things about how,

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you know, tuna are caught.

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We've heard in the past how, you know,

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tuna are caught with dolphins so that

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there's sometimes there's, you know,

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dolphins that die within

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the tuna fishing industry.

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And should you be

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even tuna based on that?

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We don't, we don't know a lot of the

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times it gets really confusing.

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Dr. Gallo Moreno talks about some of the

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advances in conservation that have been

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done through the fishing industry.

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And the organization that she works for,

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the International Seafood Sustainability

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Foundation, works with a variety of

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different fleets across the world to look

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at tuna and how tuna are fish and how

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they can improve not only the efficiency

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of catching tuna, but catching the actual

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species that they want and being able to

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distinguish them that

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are below the surface.

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Like when you get a fish aggregation

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device, it brings in fish from all over.

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A lot of tuna are coming in.

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So what species of tuna are you going to

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fish for at that point?

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Before the information that we talked to

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Gallo about on this episode, you would

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just put a per se net in, grab it and

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grab whatever's out there.

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Now you can actually distinguish which,

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like how much of a percentage of a

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certain species is there.

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So if one needs to be protected more than

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others, then you can actually go and

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catch the others and leave the protected

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ones out and you can protect them more.

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So a lot of cool research that we talk

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about in this episode.

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So without further ado, here is Dr. Gallo

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Moreno from the International Seafood

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Sustainability Foundation talking about

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fish aggregation devices and the data

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that comes with it and is the

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conservation of tuna.

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Enjoy the interview and

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I will talk to you after.

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Hey, Gallo, welcome to the How

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to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Are you ready to talk

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about sustainable seafood?

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Yeah, I'm excited.

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Thank you, Andrew.

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You bet. I'm excited to have you on.

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This is going to be a lot of fun.

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This is something that we don't get to

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talk about all the time is sustainable

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seafood and fishing and sustainable

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practices in fishing, especially around

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fish aggregation, aggregation devices.

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It's something that is known within the

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seafood industry and the fishing

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industry, but it's not something we talk

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about publicly a lot.

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And I feel as though some of my audience

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members, even me, I don't know if I have

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a full understanding of fish aggregation,

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aggregation devices.

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I haven't worked with them a lot.

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So we're going to talk a lot about that

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and how it affects fisheries and how we

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can do better with with FADs and fish

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aggregation devices.

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And I'm looking forward to

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doing all that on this episode.

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But before we do, Kelly, why don't you

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just let us know who

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you are and what you do?

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Yeah, sure.

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I'm Gala Moreno and I'm senior scientist

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with International Seafood

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Sustainability Foundation.

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We call it ISSF.

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And well, I just started working with

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tuna fleets and fish

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aggregating devices in my PhD.

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I did it 20 years ago or so.

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And since then, I've been working in all

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the oceans and three tropical oceans with

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fleets with local scientists to reduce

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the impact of fishing with fish

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aggregating devices.

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Focus.

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Most of my research focus on this.

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But of course, I work also in other tuna

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fleets when they did.

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Well, when we talk about tuna fleets, and

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we'll get into more of this later on, it

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is such a broad scope.

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When we talk about tuna fleets, I think I

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think we hear about

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it a lot in the public.

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We don't really get how vast they are and

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where they where they

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work, how many there are.

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It's quite astonishing to hear, you know,

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and we're going to hear from it in a bit

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when we when we chat more about it.

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But I always feel like

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we hear about a fleet.

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It is a fleet.

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It literally is like, you know, hundreds

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of boats and there are

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different fleets all over the world.

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And it's it's it's hard to

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keep track of all of them.

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Sure.

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Which I think is is

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is one of the problems.

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But it's it's yeah, it's definitely

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interesting and probably working with

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those fleets who probably get a lot of

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hands on experience, especially through

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through a PhD, which I

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think is I think it's amazing.

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But let's just talk about how you got to

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where you are and learn a

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little bit more about you.

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What got you interested in becoming in a

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position where you are today?

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Like, how did that happen?

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Were you interested in the ocean when you

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were when you were younger?

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Did you live by the ocean?

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How did that all come to be?

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So, OK, well, it's a mix of influences.

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And well, my family will

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live in the Basque country.

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We come from the Basque country and this

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is in the north of Spain.

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And this region is has a very strong

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maritime tradition and fishing tradition.

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So I will always surrounded by by the sea

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and the love for the sea.

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And by that time when I was a kid, they

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were not influencers,

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no internet, no mobile.

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So my influencer was my neighbor.

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He was biologist and he

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showed me many documentaries.

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And I was fascinated with

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those all these documentaries.

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So this is it's it's been

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surrounded by by the sea.

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And then so I have very clear that I

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wanted to study marine science.

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And then at the university, I have a very

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good teacher on physics management.

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And he made motivated me a

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lot to pursue that career.

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So it was quite easy.

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I can imagine. Yeah.

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Having a neighbor that's a biologist that

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that was that's that's got to be.

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You know, you don't get that often, you

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know, you know,

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depending on where you live.

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But having that maritime feeling living

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by the coast and you probably had a lot

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of there's probably a fishing community.

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There's I'm sure there's biologists that

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are there that are working there.

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So I think that's really great.

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And you've had a lot of mentors, as you

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mentioned, what was the best advice that

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you received from those that really made

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you be like, no, this is

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this is what I want to do.

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Well, I think that the best advice you

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can receive from any mentor

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or even your family or any is

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pursue what you like, do

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what you feel is your interest.

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Don't worry about the future.

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Just follow what you love.

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So I think many of the teachers, they

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encourage me to to do what.

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And of course, I think that you are good

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when you like something.

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You are. Yeah. You're

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good at that. For sure.

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Yeah, no, absolutely.

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I think it's the passion definitely

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follows, especially when you talk about

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marine biology, fisheries,

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biology, fisheries management.

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It's such a big aspect of it.

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I think it's different.

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And you can probably say the same thing

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or you can tell me if you

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feel the same way in Europe.

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But like when you have when you become a

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marine biologist, it's

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more than just a job.

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You know, it's it really is a passion.

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And you'll you'll find like a lot of

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biologists willing to

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work for free, which is not.

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Yes. You know, like you look at any other

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just like, what do you

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mean you'd work for free?

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Like, yeah, I would do this for free.

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Yeah, because you you enjoy like the

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ocean that you'd be on your on boats,

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whether it's a fishing boat or a research

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boat or whatever that might be, you get

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to be on these boats and you get to like

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see the ocean and and like dolphin bow

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riding on your along your ship.

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And, you know, you get to see these tuna

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fish that are that are

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massive and and just gorgeous.

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And it's just one of those things where

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it's like I don't think people understand

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outside of being biologists, whether it's

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wildlife biology or marine biology,

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but it really is something

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that I I don't know about you.

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01:08:35,708 --> 01:08:37,083
Like, obviously, I want to retire and I

277
01:08:37,083 --> 01:08:38,625
want to enjoy myself, but I can't see

278
01:08:38,625 --> 01:08:39,916
myself stop doing

279
01:08:39,916 --> 01:08:41,833
marine biology in retirement.

280
01:08:42,125 --> 01:08:43,916
I feel like that would become my happy.

281
01:08:44,458 --> 01:08:46,375
You know, that's what it is.

282
01:08:46,583 --> 01:08:47,500
I've never thought about

283
01:08:47,500 --> 01:08:49,208
retiring and not doing that.

284
01:08:49,208 --> 01:08:50,708
It's never never happened.

285
01:08:50,708 --> 01:08:51,583
Maybe when I get older, I

286
01:08:51,583 --> 01:08:53,666
don't know, but I'm almost there.

287
01:08:53,666 --> 01:08:55,000
So it's not too far off.

288
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:56,416
So about 20 years away.

289
01:08:56,625 --> 01:08:58,291
So we'll see what how I feel then.

290
01:08:58,291 --> 01:08:59,125
But you never know.

291
01:08:59,375 --> 01:09:00,791
But I think that's it's really

292
01:09:00,791 --> 01:09:02,833
interesting to get to that point.

293
01:09:03,041 --> 01:09:04,791
But fisheries management is not something

294
01:09:04,791 --> 01:09:06,375
that when you're younger, like I want to

295
01:09:06,375 --> 01:09:08,041
be, you know, involved in fisheries.

296
01:09:08,291 --> 01:09:09,375
I want to be a fisheries manager.

297
01:09:09,375 --> 01:09:11,000
A lot of times I don't work with dolphins

298
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:12,041
or I want to work with sharks.

299
01:09:12,250 --> 01:09:14,208
And but as you got closer and you had

300
01:09:14,208 --> 01:09:15,875
that professor fisheries manager, what

301
01:09:15,875 --> 01:09:18,333
was it about fisheries management that

302
01:09:18,333 --> 01:09:20,708
got you to be like, yeah, this is this is

303
01:09:20,708 --> 01:09:22,458
where my passion lies,

304
01:09:22,458 --> 01:09:23,291
is where I want to follow.

305
01:09:23,500 --> 01:09:24,000
Because it's not an

306
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:26,166
easy thing to do, right?

307
01:09:26,375 --> 01:09:29,000
No, it's quite complex and involves many

308
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:32,500
actors and especially with tuna that is a

309
01:09:32,500 --> 01:09:36,208
migratory species worldwide distribution.

310
01:09:37,083 --> 01:09:37,833
So it's not easy.

311
01:09:38,041 --> 01:09:40,708
But for me, what's the path was quite

312
01:09:40,708 --> 01:09:44,500
natural because as soon as I finished my

313
01:09:44,500 --> 01:09:48,791
PhD, I went on board with a person or a

314
01:09:48,791 --> 01:09:51,625
scientific observer in the Indian Ocean.

315
01:09:52,583 --> 01:10:01,458
And so I really understood at sea the old

316
01:10:01,458 --> 01:10:05,500
implications of how fishers behave,

317
01:10:05,750 --> 01:10:07,208
strategies, fishing.

318
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:10,041
And then I was starting tuna behavior,

319
01:10:10,416 --> 01:10:12,916
but I also studied fish

320
01:10:12,916 --> 01:10:14,875
behavior while I was at sea.

321
01:10:15,458 --> 01:10:22,125
So once I finished my PhD, I had quite

322
01:10:22,125 --> 01:10:25,416
clear that I wanted to improve fisheries

323
01:10:25,416 --> 01:10:27,708
management and taking into account

324
01:10:27,708 --> 01:10:29,916
fishers and their knowledge.

325
01:10:30,708 --> 01:10:34,000
So it was quite evident

326
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:36,083
for me that was the way.

327
01:10:36,625 --> 01:10:38,750
That's awesome. I've always had a great

328
01:10:38,750 --> 01:10:40,541
opportunity to be on

329
01:10:40,541 --> 01:10:42,208
fishing boats and meet fishers.

330
01:10:42,250 --> 01:10:44,416
And I love the culture.

331
01:10:44,958 --> 01:10:47,375
I love the way they act like they all

332
01:10:47,375 --> 01:10:49,166
everybody's unique every time you go on a

333
01:10:49,166 --> 01:10:50,833
different ship and you can see it.

334
01:10:50,833 --> 01:10:52,833
But as a fisheries observer, I've I've

335
01:10:52,833 --> 01:10:55,000
seen, you know, I've I've never been on

336
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:56,083
as a fisheries observer.

337
01:10:56,083 --> 01:10:57,500
I've been on as a marine mammal observer,

338
01:10:57,500 --> 01:10:58,541
but never a fisheries observer.

339
01:10:58,541 --> 01:10:59,875
So I felt it a little bit.

340
01:11:00,500 --> 01:11:02,416
And there's there are things like it's

341
01:11:02,416 --> 01:11:03,666
really it's really interesting because

342
01:11:03,666 --> 01:11:05,958
you get a lot of great experience as a

343
01:11:05,958 --> 01:11:07,583
fisheries biologist because you get to

344
01:11:07,583 --> 01:11:08,500
see all these different fish.

345
01:11:08,500 --> 01:11:09,541
You could see how it's done.

346
01:11:10,541 --> 01:11:11,875
You know, you can see how many how

347
01:11:11,875 --> 01:11:13,458
quickly how quickly it happens.

348
01:11:13,458 --> 01:11:14,708
You know, when the fish come aboard, you

349
01:11:14,708 --> 01:11:16,000
have to identify them and measure them

350
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:17,083
and all this kind of stuff.

351
01:11:18,125 --> 01:11:19,666
But there's there's a little bit of

352
01:11:19,666 --> 01:11:21,666
contention when you're an observer on a

353
01:11:21,666 --> 01:11:23,250
fishing boat on a fishing boat, because

354
01:11:23,250 --> 01:11:25,333
some of the crew may not like you being

355
01:11:25,333 --> 01:11:26,083
there because you're

356
01:11:26,083 --> 01:11:27,208
there as a regulatory.

357
01:11:27,833 --> 01:11:29,000
Were you there as a as a research

358
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:29,916
capacity or is more of

359
01:11:29,916 --> 01:11:32,166
a regulatory capacity?

360
01:11:32,166 --> 01:11:34,000
I've been at both research.

361
01:11:34,291 --> 01:11:36,500
OK, yes. I've been researching and also

362
01:11:36,500 --> 01:11:38,750
like following compliance.

363
01:11:39,458 --> 01:11:41,750
Gotcha. So how was that different when

364
01:11:41,750 --> 01:11:44,208
you like for those for both the research

365
01:11:44,208 --> 01:11:45,625
as well as the compliance

366
01:11:45,625 --> 01:11:47,333
for you when you were in there?

367
01:11:47,333 --> 01:11:50,083
Like, do you find that there was more of

368
01:11:50,083 --> 01:11:53,291
of like there was more of contention,

369
01:11:53,541 --> 01:11:55,208
like more of a conflict when they when

370
01:11:55,208 --> 01:11:56,500
you're on as compliance

371
01:11:56,500 --> 01:11:57,916
rather than the research?

372
01:12:00,791 --> 01:12:05,166
In my case, I can say that there are hubs

373
01:12:05,166 --> 01:12:06,500
in the beginning when

374
01:12:06,500 --> 01:12:07,750
you arrive at the vessel.

375
01:12:08,416 --> 01:12:11,541
Right. Like the first impression when you

376
01:12:11,541 --> 01:12:16,833
go for compliance, it can be harder in

377
01:12:16,833 --> 01:12:20,083
the beginning to be

378
01:12:20,083 --> 01:12:21,333
respected by the crew.

379
01:12:21,541 --> 01:12:25,166
Yes. But if but if you have the tools, I

380
01:12:25,166 --> 01:12:27,375
mean, the emotional skills and the

381
01:12:27,375 --> 01:12:31,250
knowledge you can you can be I mean, for

382
01:12:31,250 --> 01:12:36,250
me, I can distinguish when I was on board

383
01:12:36,250 --> 01:12:37,333
for research or for compliance.

384
01:12:38,291 --> 01:12:40,250
Just in the beginning. But when you set

385
01:12:40,250 --> 01:12:43,041
the rules, I mean, is when OK, I'm here.

386
01:12:43,583 --> 01:12:47,291
Yeah. And of course, sometimes there are

387
01:12:47,291 --> 01:12:51,041
some moments in which in the beginning

388
01:12:51,041 --> 01:12:56,958
they they try to how do you say, see what

389
01:12:56,958 --> 01:12:59,875
is your opinion about things.

390
01:13:00,125 --> 01:13:01,500
And in the beginning, there is like.

391
01:13:01,541 --> 01:13:05,916
They are they are testing you that right

392
01:13:05,916 --> 01:13:08,333
if you pass the test, it's fine.

393
01:13:09,375 --> 01:13:12,625
Yeah, exactly. I totally get that. I can

394
01:13:12,625 --> 01:13:14,500
see that because it's also from a

395
01:13:14,500 --> 01:13:15,375
research perspective.

396
01:13:15,375 --> 01:13:17,208
A lot of these fishers doesn't matter

397
01:13:17,208 --> 01:13:18,125
anybody on the crew,

398
01:13:18,125 --> 01:13:19,583
what what their role is.

399
01:13:19,708 --> 01:13:21,125
They're generally interested in what you

400
01:13:21,125 --> 01:13:22,500
do, you know, from a research

401
01:13:22,500 --> 01:13:23,958
perspective, like they're interested in

402
01:13:23,958 --> 01:13:24,791
where the data goes,

403
01:13:24,791 --> 01:13:26,500
how it's done, the trends.

404
01:13:26,500 --> 01:13:27,625
I mean, a lot of times they know the

405
01:13:27,625 --> 01:13:29,291
trends more than we do, just from what

406
01:13:29,291 --> 01:13:29,958
they've seen and how

407
01:13:29,958 --> 01:13:30,916
long it takes to catch.

408
01:13:30,916 --> 01:13:32,666
And where they're catching more or less,

409
01:13:32,666 --> 01:13:33,625
they see that happen.

410
01:13:33,958 --> 01:13:35,958
They can come up with different reasons

411
01:13:35,958 --> 01:13:37,500
why some of them are scientific.

412
01:13:37,500 --> 01:13:38,000
Some of them are a

413
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:39,875
little folklore and so forth.

414
01:13:39,875 --> 01:13:40,291
But it's really

415
01:13:40,291 --> 01:13:42,583
interesting to interact with them.

416
01:13:44,041 --> 01:13:46,708
You know, it's it from a perspective of

417
01:13:46,708 --> 01:13:48,958
being on a ship, you know,

418
01:13:48,958 --> 01:13:50,291
I've had that perspective.

419
01:13:50,458 --> 01:13:52,625
But being on a ship as a

420
01:13:52,625 --> 01:13:55,000
woman is a lot different. Right.

421
01:13:55,125 --> 01:13:57,500
It's it's it's you know, there's certain

422
01:13:57,500 --> 01:13:59,875
concessions like during on the ship

423
01:13:59,875 --> 01:14:00,708
because you have to have your

424
01:14:00,750 --> 01:14:01,958
you know, your own room and stuff like

425
01:14:01,958 --> 01:14:04,000
I've been bunking with four other guys in

426
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:06,583
the in one cabin and stuff like that.

427
01:14:07,125 --> 01:14:09,625
What's it like as as a as a woman to go

428
01:14:09,625 --> 01:14:10,708
on one of these ships?

429
01:14:11,791 --> 01:14:13,416
Can it be intimidating at times?

430
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:15,500
Do you find that the crew

431
01:14:15,500 --> 01:14:18,000
it might be nicer to you?

432
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:19,750
How is that? How is that different?

433
01:14:20,666 --> 01:14:22,625
Well, it highly depends on the crew.

434
01:14:23,041 --> 01:14:23,333
Yeah.

435
01:14:23,875 --> 01:14:26,666
I mean, it's like when you go to a

436
01:14:26,666 --> 01:14:29,500
research team and they are

437
01:14:29,500 --> 01:14:31,166
they can be very different.

438
01:14:31,708 --> 01:14:31,916
Right.

439
01:14:32,458 --> 01:14:34,750
I have not had any issue. I've been

440
01:14:34,750 --> 01:14:36,375
always I can tell you

441
01:14:36,375 --> 01:14:37,708
in the Spanish vessels.

442
01:14:38,208 --> 01:14:40,375
I never had any issue

443
01:14:40,375 --> 01:14:44,208
because of being a woman.

444
01:14:49,458 --> 01:14:51,000
But I know that that's

445
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:53,000
not just that I know that.

446
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:56,916
Sometimes women have issues. I mean, it

447
01:14:56,916 --> 01:14:59,541
has not been my case on board vessels.

448
01:15:00,416 --> 01:15:02,083
I was respected and I

449
01:15:02,083 --> 01:15:05,458
had I mean, no, no problem.

450
01:15:05,750 --> 01:15:07,666
That's good with them. Yeah.

451
01:15:08,791 --> 01:15:11,041
But I know that it's happened. Sometimes

452
01:15:11,041 --> 01:15:13,083
it's hard for women to go on board.

453
01:15:13,458 --> 01:15:16,333
I mean, it's when you for instance, in a

454
01:15:16,333 --> 01:15:17,750
person or you can be

455
01:15:17,750 --> 01:15:20,916
surrounded by 28 men working.

456
01:15:22,291 --> 01:15:27,583
So yeah, but you know, I think I'm I'm

457
01:15:27,583 --> 01:15:28,791
quite used to be

458
01:15:28,791 --> 01:15:32,083
surrounded by men in my work.

459
01:15:32,375 --> 01:15:34,208
I mean, yeah, in science when I started

460
01:15:34,208 --> 01:15:38,333
with with acoustics or sonar technology,

461
01:15:39,458 --> 01:15:40,958
I was surrounded by men also.

462
01:15:41,583 --> 01:15:43,708
Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's it's

463
01:15:43,708 --> 01:15:46,458
it's it's especially, you know, in our

464
01:15:46,458 --> 01:15:48,583
generation to when you as you as you come

465
01:15:48,583 --> 01:15:49,916
up, there were a lot more men in the

466
01:15:49,916 --> 01:15:50,666
field, especially in fishing.

467
01:15:50,666 --> 01:15:53,458
It's it's it's more of a predominantly

468
01:15:53,458 --> 01:15:57,208
male sort of of of field.

469
01:15:58,375 --> 01:15:59,875
We're starting to see a lot more female

470
01:15:59,875 --> 01:16:01,750
scientists come through a lot more.

471
01:16:01,750 --> 01:16:02,083
I mean, it's been

472
01:16:02,083 --> 01:16:04,041
happening for 20 even 20 years ago.

473
01:16:04,041 --> 01:16:05,708
It was starting to happen and we're

474
01:16:05,708 --> 01:16:06,208
trying to see that

475
01:16:06,208 --> 01:16:07,083
more and more and more.

476
01:16:07,583 --> 01:16:08,791
What advice would you give them if they

477
01:16:08,791 --> 01:16:10,916
want to be a fisheries observer, whether

478
01:16:10,916 --> 01:16:11,875
it be for compliance or

479
01:16:11,875 --> 01:16:13,041
whether it be for research?

480
01:16:13,041 --> 01:16:14,875
What advice would you give a lot of these

481
01:16:14,875 --> 01:16:16,666
young scientists that want to get some

482
01:16:16,666 --> 01:16:18,750
experience and and, you know, fisheries

483
01:16:18,750 --> 01:16:20,500
observer is a good good way to get that.

484
01:16:20,708 --> 01:16:27,458
Well, I'm sure for women, I'm sure it's a

485
01:16:27,458 --> 01:16:31,000
really good experience for for for them

486
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:34,708
also for the crew to have women on board.

487
01:16:34,958 --> 01:16:35,291
Yeah, true.

488
01:16:36,041 --> 01:16:38,916
And well, I would say that

489
01:16:38,916 --> 01:16:42,458
my advice is to to go for it.

490
01:16:42,500 --> 01:16:46,208
I mean, it's it's the same advice I would

491
01:16:46,208 --> 01:16:51,291
I would give for anybody or especially

492
01:16:51,291 --> 01:16:56,333
women in science because too often women

493
01:16:56,333 --> 01:16:59,750
think that, oh, I don't deserve this.

494
01:16:59,750 --> 01:17:00,458
I'm not going to

495
01:17:00,458 --> 01:17:02,375
measure up on this position.

496
01:17:02,375 --> 01:17:05,375
I'm not going to go on board because I

497
01:17:05,375 --> 01:17:06,250
fear that I don't know.

498
01:17:06,291 --> 01:17:10,750
So I think they should go for it even if

499
01:17:10,750 --> 01:17:12,833
they think they are not ready.

500
01:17:13,625 --> 01:17:14,666
They should go.

501
01:17:15,416 --> 01:17:16,208
Yes, you're right.

502
01:17:17,083 --> 01:17:17,666
You have the degree.

503
01:17:18,083 --> 01:17:19,541
You know, you have the degree.

504
01:17:19,541 --> 01:17:20,166
You've done the schooling.

505
01:17:20,416 --> 01:17:21,166
You've done the IDs.

506
01:17:22,541 --> 01:17:23,541
It's and you learn

507
01:17:23,541 --> 01:17:25,458
quickly on those boats to write.

508
01:17:25,458 --> 01:17:26,458
You learn very quickly.

509
01:17:26,750 --> 01:17:27,000
Very.

510
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:27,708
Yeah.

511
01:17:28,208 --> 01:17:28,541
Awesome.

512
01:17:28,583 --> 01:17:28,916
Okay.

513
01:17:29,333 --> 01:17:31,500
Now, let's talk about ISSF.

514
01:17:31,875 --> 01:17:33,375
You've been you've been there almost a

515
01:17:33,375 --> 01:17:35,041
decade from from what I've seen.

516
01:17:35,083 --> 01:17:37,583
What I've seen in my research of you.

517
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:38,166
Yeah.

518
01:17:38,166 --> 01:17:41,083
How like how did that all

519
01:17:41,083 --> 01:17:43,000
start like working with ISSF?

520
01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:45,500
Was that out of your PhD or had you

521
01:17:45,500 --> 01:17:46,958
worked in other places before?

522
01:17:47,666 --> 01:17:49,750
I was before in another research

523
01:17:49,750 --> 01:17:52,375
Institute in Spain called Asti.

524
01:17:52,833 --> 01:17:57,625
Okay, but I was already working for ISSF

525
01:17:57,625 --> 01:18:00,291
in some specific issues

526
01:18:00,291 --> 01:18:01,875
with features and research.

527
01:18:01,916 --> 01:18:04,916
So in the end, I end up

528
01:18:04,916 --> 01:18:06,958
in in ISSF 10 years ago.

529
01:18:07,250 --> 01:18:11,666
Yes, but mostly I continue doing same

530
01:18:11,666 --> 01:18:13,125
topics and research.

531
01:18:13,125 --> 01:18:18,916
But because ISSF works globally now that

532
01:18:18,916 --> 01:18:20,083
before I was more

533
01:18:20,083 --> 01:18:21,625
focused on the Spanish fleets.

534
01:18:22,083 --> 01:18:22,291
Right.

535
01:18:22,500 --> 01:18:24,708
And now I work globally.

536
01:18:25,416 --> 01:18:25,750
Okay.

537
01:18:26,291 --> 01:18:28,416
What's that like the change from going

538
01:18:28,416 --> 01:18:30,666
just in Spain to working globally?

539
01:18:30,666 --> 01:18:34,333
What are the what's the fun part of it?

540
01:18:34,333 --> 01:18:35,500
And what are the challenges of it?

541
01:18:36,541 --> 01:18:40,583
Well, I have for me is wonderful.

542
01:18:41,125 --> 01:18:45,916
Yeah, I don't I don't sometimes the issue

543
01:18:45,916 --> 01:18:49,916
of having calls very late at night.

544
01:18:50,041 --> 01:18:50,541
Oh, yeah.

545
01:18:51,083 --> 01:18:51,708
Different time zones.

546
01:18:51,958 --> 01:18:52,166
Yeah.

547
01:18:52,791 --> 01:18:54,500
This is the practical issue.

548
01:18:54,500 --> 01:18:57,208
Sometimes I have to work with New

549
01:18:57,208 --> 01:18:57,458
Caledonia or Hawaii.

550
01:18:57,500 --> 01:19:01,291
And this is very like for me.

551
01:19:03,333 --> 01:19:04,916
Then for me, the adventure of working

552
01:19:04,916 --> 01:19:10,500
globally is very good because I have I

553
01:19:10,500 --> 01:19:13,833
love meeting people working with people

554
01:19:13,833 --> 01:19:16,875
and learning from them exchanging ideas.

555
01:19:17,250 --> 01:19:19,750
So when you visit so many fleets, so many

556
01:19:19,750 --> 01:19:22,250
people, so many cultures, there's a lot

557
01:19:22,250 --> 01:19:23,500
of diversity diversity.

558
01:19:23,500 --> 01:19:24,791
And I love it.

559
01:19:25,041 --> 01:19:25,666
I like it.

560
01:19:25,666 --> 01:19:31,208
Yeah, I can imagine. It must be a lot different to go from

561
01:19:31,208 --> 01:19:33,208
just sort of in country and then globally

562
01:19:33,208 --> 01:19:36,625
and to see how things are done in

563
01:19:36,625 --> 01:19:38,791
different areas of the world with the

564
01:19:38,791 --> 01:19:40,916
same type of maybe not the same type of

565
01:19:40,916 --> 01:19:43,208
species, but the same type of fish and to

566
01:19:43,208 --> 01:19:44,791
be able to see how that's changed

567
01:19:44,791 --> 01:19:46,916
culturally and how that's changed from

568
01:19:46,916 --> 01:19:48,833
even from a logistics point of view.

569
01:19:49,250 --> 01:19:49,458
So I think that's that's really that's really interesting.

570
01:19:49,500 --> 01:19:54,916
Now your work, you said you

571
01:19:54,916 --> 01:19:56,208
work with a lot of fleets.

572
01:19:56,583 --> 01:19:58,750
Can you talk about the what what that

573
01:19:58,750 --> 01:19:59,750
entails when you work

574
01:19:59,750 --> 01:20:00,541
with a lot of fleets?

575
01:20:01,500 --> 01:20:05,291
Well, I'm mainly working with tropical

576
01:20:05,291 --> 01:20:06,583
tuna Persine fleets.

577
01:20:06,583 --> 01:20:10,166
This is a specific fishing gear, although

578
01:20:10,166 --> 01:20:11,083
I've been working also

579
01:20:11,083 --> 01:20:12,583
with Portland Line fleets.

580
01:20:13,250 --> 01:20:22,750
Well, I've been working with mainly industrial fishing gear. That's that rely a lot on the use of fish

581
01:20:22,750 --> 01:20:23,916
aggregating devices.

582
01:20:25,041 --> 01:20:29,208
So for instance, I work with Ecuadorian

583
01:20:29,208 --> 01:20:33,416
fleets, Columbia, Papua New

584
01:20:33,416 --> 01:20:36,875
Guinea, Ghana, Philippines.

585
01:20:37,583 --> 01:20:38,041
So I work with very different cultures.

586
01:20:38,041 --> 01:20:47,083
Right. Strategies. Some some are

587
01:20:47,083 --> 01:20:48,625
more attached to traditions.

588
01:20:49,375 --> 01:20:52,000
So you learn you have always something to

589
01:20:52,000 --> 01:20:55,250
learn and also something to share because

590
01:20:55,250 --> 01:20:57,875
when you work globally, you can it's like a cross Polynesian, pro-lin-ish,

591
01:20:58,875 --> 01:21:02,666
pro-lin-ish,

592
01:21:02,666 --> 01:21:07,041
pro-lin-ish of the ideas you have.

593
01:21:07,333 --> 01:21:09,375
So perhaps something that is working in

594
01:21:09,375 --> 01:21:13,875
Ecuador or some feature tell you see I've

595
01:21:13,875 --> 01:21:15,333
been using this practice and

596
01:21:15,333 --> 01:21:17,583
it works for sharks or whatever.

597
01:21:17,583 --> 01:21:18,250
You can go to

598
01:21:18,250 --> 01:21:21,875
Philippines and I'm sure this idea.

599
01:21:22,166 --> 01:21:23,041
So it's it's really

600
01:21:23,041 --> 01:21:24,666
nice to work globally.

601
01:21:25,291 --> 01:21:25,666
I can imagine.

602
01:21:25,708 --> 01:21:28,083
Yeah. Now you mentioned a lot of them use

603
01:21:28,083 --> 01:21:30,000
Persane nets, right?

604
01:21:31,208 --> 01:21:32,875
Can you talk about what that is for the

605
01:21:32,875 --> 01:21:34,500
audience to like what it actually what

606
01:21:34,500 --> 01:21:36,916
the devices like what that fishing gear

607
01:21:36,916 --> 01:21:39,375
is the fish aggregating device?

608
01:21:39,875 --> 01:21:41,750
No, sorry, the Persane nets.

609
01:21:42,000 --> 01:21:42,791
The Persane. Yeah.

610
01:21:44,291 --> 01:21:49,583
Persane is a fishing gear which uses a

611
01:21:49,583 --> 01:21:52,875
fishing net that encircles the fish.

612
01:21:54,041 --> 01:21:56,166
So they deploy the net and then they

613
01:21:56,166 --> 01:21:58,583
encircle the fish with the net and they

614
01:21:58,583 --> 01:22:00,500
close it on the bottom.

615
01:22:00,875 --> 01:22:03,208
It is a pursuit and they then they

616
01:22:03,208 --> 01:22:05,875
retrieve the the the whole there.

617
01:22:06,250 --> 01:22:08,500
The next so this becomes like it's it's

618
01:22:08,500 --> 01:22:09,958
almost like a net where they come up and

619
01:22:09,958 --> 01:22:10,750
they're all at the bottom of

620
01:22:10,750 --> 01:22:11,666
the net as they bring it up.

621
01:22:13,541 --> 01:22:15,291
Let's talk, so we have the,

622
01:22:15,291 --> 01:22:16,083
that's how they catch them.

623
01:22:16,083 --> 01:22:17,500
So they encircle them, they bring them up

624
01:22:17,500 --> 01:22:18,416
and that's how they catch them.

625
01:22:18,791 --> 01:22:19,750
Let's talk about fish

626
01:22:19,750 --> 01:22:21,166
aggregation devices.

627
01:22:21,791 --> 01:22:22,791
You know, can you just

628
01:22:22,791 --> 01:22:24,375
talk about what that is?

629
01:22:24,375 --> 01:22:25,958
Like just define it for the audience

630
01:22:25,958 --> 01:22:27,541
and then we can go into the different

631
01:22:27,541 --> 01:22:28,416
ones that they have.

632
01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:29,458
Okay.

633
01:22:30,166 --> 01:22:31,541
So fish aggregating

634
01:22:31,541 --> 01:22:33,583
devices are floating objects,

635
01:22:34,083 --> 01:22:35,541
human made floating objects.

636
01:22:35,708 --> 01:22:37,041
So they are typically

637
01:22:37,041 --> 01:22:38,458
a floating structure

638
01:22:38,791 --> 01:22:40,041
that has two components.

639
01:22:40,666 --> 01:22:41,791
One is the surface component,

640
01:22:42,166 --> 01:22:43,625
which is typically a raft.

641
01:22:45,208 --> 01:22:47,208
And then it has a tail that

642
01:22:47,208 --> 01:22:51,541
can reach up to 50 meters,

643
01:22:51,541 --> 01:22:52,458
depending on the ocean,

644
01:22:52,458 --> 01:22:54,291
but they see an average of 50 meters.

645
01:22:55,500 --> 01:22:57,791
And these are used

646
01:22:57,791 --> 01:23:00,041
with a geolocating voice.

647
01:23:00,541 --> 01:23:03,375
So the fishing strategy is that fishers,

648
01:23:03,375 --> 01:23:04,250
they deploy this

649
01:23:04,250 --> 01:23:05,916
floating structure at sea

650
01:23:06,708 --> 01:23:09,041
with a geolocating boy

651
01:23:10,541 --> 01:23:13,541
that nowadays provide an estimate of the

652
01:23:13,541 --> 01:23:15,250
biomass beneath the fat.

653
01:23:16,541 --> 01:23:19,708
So they deploy it and leave it adrift for

654
01:23:19,708 --> 01:23:21,625
a couple of weeks or a month.

655
01:23:22,625 --> 01:23:24,541
And once they think or

656
01:23:24,541 --> 01:23:27,458
they see in the eco-sounders

657
01:23:27,916 --> 01:23:29,458
that tuna is around

658
01:23:29,458 --> 01:23:30,666
their floating object,

659
01:23:30,833 --> 01:23:33,500
they go and catch it.

660
01:23:33,958 --> 01:23:36,750
So this is the strategy and the structure

661
01:23:36,750 --> 01:23:38,833
of the fish aggregating device.

662
01:23:39,875 --> 01:23:40,875
Now there are different

663
01:23:40,875 --> 01:23:42,916
devices though, right?

664
01:23:42,916 --> 01:23:44,541
And it's all based on what works in

665
01:23:44,541 --> 01:23:45,250
different parts of the

666
01:23:45,250 --> 01:23:47,250
world and things like that.

667
01:23:47,875 --> 01:23:49,791
Are there like, you know, hundreds of

668
01:23:49,791 --> 01:23:51,166
different devices or are

669
01:23:51,166 --> 01:23:52,708
they pretty much the same?

670
01:23:53,708 --> 01:23:54,583
Like how different

671
01:23:54,583 --> 01:23:55,791
are they when you start,

672
01:23:55,791 --> 01:23:57,541
like say when you look at a fish

673
01:23:57,541 --> 01:23:59,041
aggregating device that's used in Hawaii

674
01:23:59,041 --> 01:24:00,291
compared to like the Philippines,

675
01:24:00,541 --> 01:24:01,916
are they similar or are they

676
01:24:01,916 --> 01:24:03,375
different or how does that work?

677
01:24:04,166 --> 01:24:05,708
Well, in terms of drifting

678
01:24:05,708 --> 01:24:08,291
facts, they are quite similar.

679
01:24:08,291 --> 01:24:12,583
Sometimes we can say that they can vary

680
01:24:12,583 --> 01:24:15,875
in the depth, the

681
01:24:15,875 --> 01:24:18,500
reach, in the raft they use.

682
01:24:18,916 --> 01:24:21,000
Usually typically it's bamboo, but in

683
01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:23,708
some countries they use other materials

684
01:24:23,708 --> 01:24:26,291
or just percent corks, asportation.

685
01:24:28,041 --> 01:24:29,875
But for instance,

686
01:24:29,875 --> 01:24:31,333
then we have anchor fat.

687
01:24:32,291 --> 01:24:35,333
Those anchor fats are used by some

688
01:24:35,333 --> 01:24:38,041
artisanal fleets mostly in the,

689
01:24:38,291 --> 01:24:40,041
especially in the Western

690
01:24:40,041 --> 01:24:41,541
Pacific and Indian Ocean.

691
01:24:42,291 --> 01:24:44,916
You can find thousands of them and then

692
01:24:44,916 --> 01:24:46,041
the structure is different.

693
01:24:46,541 --> 01:24:49,708
They have been made of bamboo initially,

694
01:24:49,708 --> 01:24:52,541
but they are using more plastic now.

695
01:24:53,041 --> 01:24:53,208
Okay.

696
01:24:53,833 --> 01:24:54,041
Okay.

697
01:24:54,375 --> 01:24:57,541
Are these FADs, are they retrieved after

698
01:24:57,541 --> 01:24:58,541
they're used or do they

699
01:24:58,541 --> 01:24:59,458
just leave them out there?

700
01:25:01,666 --> 01:25:04,333
When they set, when they conduct a

701
01:25:04,333 --> 01:25:06,541
fishing set on the FAD,

702
01:25:07,041 --> 01:25:08,666
they usually retrieve it.

703
01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:12,041
If the FAD is drifting towards outside

704
01:25:12,041 --> 01:25:14,625
the fishing zone or towards an area that

705
01:25:14,625 --> 01:25:17,083
is not productive or they think there is

706
01:25:17,083 --> 01:25:18,458
not going to be a

707
01:25:18,458 --> 01:25:21,041
irrigation anymore, they retrieve it.

708
01:25:21,250 --> 01:25:24,875
The issue is that some FADs end up lost

709
01:25:24,875 --> 01:25:28,333
or abandoned because they

710
01:25:28,333 --> 01:25:30,833
drift outside the fishing zone.

711
01:25:30,833 --> 01:25:37,541
I mean, the time from the deployment to

712
01:25:37,541 --> 01:25:40,916
the visit, there is there like two weeks

713
01:25:40,916 --> 01:25:45,708
or one month and in this month FADs can

714
01:25:45,708 --> 01:25:47,500
drift outside or can happen.

715
01:25:47,500 --> 01:25:48,833
Right. You just never know. It's the

716
01:25:48,833 --> 01:25:50,250
ocean. You never know sometimes, right?

717
01:25:50,625 --> 01:25:51,541
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

718
01:25:51,583 --> 01:25:53,958
Are there like GPS units attached to them

719
01:25:53,958 --> 01:25:55,416
or satellite GPS units

720
01:25:55,416 --> 01:25:56,333
that they can return?

721
01:25:56,625 --> 01:25:57,250
It's a buoy.

722
01:25:57,750 --> 01:25:58,041
Yeah.

723
01:25:58,875 --> 01:26:00,875
With satellite connection. I keep it with

724
01:26:00,875 --> 01:26:04,083
equipment and eco-sonder, which provides

725
01:26:04,083 --> 01:26:05,708
a rough estimation of biomass.

726
01:26:06,375 --> 01:26:08,208
But not all of them. That's got to be

727
01:26:08,208 --> 01:26:09,791
expensive to put together

728
01:26:09,791 --> 01:26:11,750
each of these FADs to have.

729
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:14,458
Can some tuna fleets afford them and

730
01:26:14,458 --> 01:26:16,916
others not or like how does that work?

731
01:26:18,083 --> 01:26:21,833
Nowadays, almost every FAD has a buoy

732
01:26:21,833 --> 01:26:24,791
with an eco-sonder. It's more expensive,

733
01:26:25,208 --> 01:26:28,333
but it's more expensive to travel, for

734
01:26:28,333 --> 01:26:31,875
instance, for these to a FAD, the Feast

735
01:26:31,875 --> 01:26:34,625
of Regaining Divace, consuming fuel and

736
01:26:34,625 --> 01:26:37,166
time and to find out

737
01:26:37,166 --> 01:26:38,250
there is nothing there.

738
01:26:38,250 --> 01:26:39,958
Right. Yeah.

739
01:26:40,708 --> 01:26:44,875
So the eco-sonder, in fact, it has been a

740
01:26:44,875 --> 01:26:48,750
really good, I mean, it has been an

741
01:26:48,750 --> 01:26:51,166
incredible improvement in the way FADs

742
01:26:51,166 --> 01:26:54,875
are fished because now fishers can plan

743
01:26:54,875 --> 01:26:56,666
their strategy before going at

744
01:26:56,666 --> 01:26:58,250
sea, just looking at biomass.

745
01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:01,375
Yes. Yeah. Interesting. So from a

746
01:27:01,375 --> 01:27:02,875
fisheries perspective, like if I'm a

747
01:27:02,875 --> 01:27:04,958
fisher, I want these fish aggregation

748
01:27:04,958 --> 01:27:07,166
devices. Like these are good for me

749
01:27:07,166 --> 01:27:09,541
because they attract the fish, then I

750
01:27:09,541 --> 01:27:10,750
know that they're going to be there,

751
01:27:10,750 --> 01:27:12,500
especially now with the data that I have,

752
01:27:12,500 --> 01:27:14,375
there's more likely a chance that they're

753
01:27:14,375 --> 01:27:15,625
going to be there. I can go out there

754
01:27:15,625 --> 01:27:16,875
when there's stuff out there.

755
01:27:17,250 --> 01:27:17,458
Right.

756
01:27:17,875 --> 01:27:20,208
But from a fisheries management

757
01:27:20,208 --> 01:27:22,625
perspective, like from the ecology side

758
01:27:22,625 --> 01:27:29,083
or from the conservation side, are FADs a

759
01:27:29,083 --> 01:27:31,250
good thing or are they not a good thing?

760
01:27:31,458 --> 01:27:33,041
Like how do we approach it, even from the

761
01:27:33,041 --> 01:27:34,625
ISSF, like you guys are there for

762
01:27:34,625 --> 01:27:39,000
sustainability. Is using a FAD part of

763
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:40,375
sustainability, like is it considered

764
01:27:40,375 --> 01:27:42,250
sustainable to use that?

765
01:27:42,250 --> 01:27:43,916
Like are we taking out, like we're

766
01:27:43,916 --> 01:27:45,583
getting more efficient by taking the

767
01:27:45,583 --> 01:27:48,916
fish, but is that a good thing or a bad

768
01:27:48,916 --> 01:27:50,166
thing? Like from a

769
01:27:50,166 --> 01:27:51,250
conservation perspective?

770
01:27:52,250 --> 01:27:56,333
Well, the first thing is that any fishing

771
01:27:56,333 --> 01:27:59,500
gear comes with an impact. So we want, we

772
01:27:59,500 --> 01:28:02,541
want to fish, we need to accept a level

773
01:28:02,541 --> 01:28:04,291
of impact or assume

774
01:28:04,291 --> 01:28:06,250
there's going to be an impact.

775
01:28:06,250 --> 01:28:12,041
In fact, for sure FADs are, some people

776
01:28:12,041 --> 01:28:16,375
thinks are bad. And I have listened to

777
01:28:16,375 --> 01:28:19,541
many people saying FADs are bad. If we

778
01:28:19,541 --> 01:28:23,291
look at, if we build our opinion based on

779
01:28:23,291 --> 01:28:26,875
science and we look at data, then we can

780
01:28:26,875 --> 01:28:28,833
say that FADs are not bad.

781
01:28:29,708 --> 01:28:34,166
And that I think, of course there are

782
01:28:34,166 --> 01:28:38,333
things to improve, but FADs can be, and

783
01:28:38,333 --> 01:28:40,708
this is entirely possible. I mean, we

784
01:28:40,708 --> 01:28:44,583
can, we have a look 10 years ago, there

785
01:28:44,583 --> 01:28:48,708
was a little change 20 years ago, there

786
01:28:48,708 --> 01:28:51,458
was nothing on the FADs management and

787
01:28:51,458 --> 01:28:53,000
now we have improved a lot.

788
01:28:53,458 --> 01:28:57,125
So if you have a look to data, I would

789
01:28:57,125 --> 01:28:59,250
say FADs are not bad, but of course there

790
01:28:59,250 --> 01:29:00,916
is an impact of using FADs.

791
01:29:01,208 --> 01:29:04,375
Right, right. When you work with the

792
01:29:04,375 --> 01:29:07,375
fishing fleet on FADs and the research

793
01:29:07,375 --> 01:29:09,791
around FADs and making sure that it's

794
01:29:09,791 --> 01:29:13,375
sustainable, it's properly done. What's,

795
01:29:13,375 --> 01:29:15,416
what's, are they, you know, jumping in

796
01:29:15,416 --> 01:29:16,666
with you and being, okay, let's make sure

797
01:29:16,666 --> 01:29:18,625
this is done as, you know, we want to

798
01:29:18,625 --> 01:29:20,083
look at the compromise, but we also want

799
01:29:20,083 --> 01:29:20,666
to make sure we're

800
01:29:20,666 --> 01:29:21,208
catching the right amount of fish.

801
01:29:21,416 --> 01:29:25,250
But we also don't want to have too much

802
01:29:25,250 --> 01:29:26,416
of an impact. Like you said, there's

803
01:29:26,416 --> 01:29:27,500
always an impact, but we don't want to

804
01:29:27,500 --> 01:29:29,750
have too much of an impact. What, when

805
01:29:29,750 --> 01:29:31,375
you work with those, like I know ISSF

806
01:29:31,375 --> 01:29:32,541
have like a really good

807
01:29:32,541 --> 01:29:33,708
relationship with the fishing fleet.

808
01:29:33,708 --> 01:29:36,000
So how do you approach that saying like,

809
01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:38,041
yeah, yeah, we want to just see, you

810
01:29:38,041 --> 01:29:40,291
know, how these FADs work and, you know,

811
01:29:40,291 --> 01:29:42,541
are they, are they good for, for the

812
01:29:42,541 --> 01:29:44,375
conservation of fish or, or not good for

813
01:29:44,375 --> 01:29:45,250
the conservation of fish? How do they react to that?

814
01:29:45,291 --> 01:29:52,333
No, it's, I mean, we always work with

815
01:29:52,333 --> 01:29:54,791
pieces from the first step of our

816
01:29:54,791 --> 01:29:57,166
research. So it's not that I go with a

817
01:29:57,166 --> 01:30:00,500
new FAD design and say, you have to try

818
01:30:00,500 --> 01:30:03,708
this. No, no, our approach in ISSF is

819
01:30:03,708 --> 01:30:05,250
that we try to find a solution with them.

820
01:30:05,291 --> 01:30:11,708
So for instance, it was a huge challenge

821
01:30:11,708 --> 01:30:15,250
to move towards non-entangling FADs,

822
01:30:15,250 --> 01:30:17,666
which are FADs that don't have any

823
01:30:17,666 --> 01:30:20,958
netting in their construction. So because

824
01:30:20,958 --> 01:30:24,625
the conventional FADs or traditional FADs

825
01:30:24,625 --> 01:30:25,250
used before, they had fishing nets.

826
01:30:25,291 --> 01:30:29,708
And this is, this was creating cost

827
01:30:29,708 --> 01:30:33,208
fishing because marion found I wasn't

828
01:30:33,208 --> 01:30:36,500
tangling in FAD structures. So we had

829
01:30:36,500 --> 01:30:39,666
this challenge of moving towards FADs

830
01:30:39,666 --> 01:30:43,500
without netting. And we work with fishers

831
01:30:43,500 --> 01:30:46,250
from the beginning. We choose some

832
01:30:46,250 --> 01:30:48,666
fishers that we know and

833
01:30:48,666 --> 01:30:49,250
that we trust and they trust us.

834
01:30:49,250 --> 01:30:53,916
So we've been building for years a

835
01:30:53,916 --> 01:30:55,750
relationship, which is really important.

836
01:30:56,166 --> 01:30:58,541
And then also we know who to ask because

837
01:30:58,541 --> 01:31:01,666
you know fishers are like scientists,

838
01:31:02,250 --> 01:31:04,541
they have an expertise. I mean, if you go

839
01:31:04,541 --> 01:31:07,083
to a doctor because you have a headache,

840
01:31:07,083 --> 01:31:09,916
you go to a specialist. So with fishers

841
01:31:09,916 --> 01:31:12,583
is the same. You go to someone that is a

842
01:31:12,583 --> 01:31:13,250
specialist in what you want.

843
01:31:13,250 --> 01:31:18,875
And so we have very clear the people we

844
01:31:18,875 --> 01:31:21,541
bought, which is really, we have a method

845
01:31:21,541 --> 01:31:26,166
for that. And from then we start finding

846
01:31:26,166 --> 01:31:29,750
the solution with them. And that's the

847
01:31:29,750 --> 01:31:34,708
way we work. But the challenge here is

848
01:31:34,708 --> 01:31:37,250
that we are working in a worldwide.

849
01:31:37,291 --> 01:31:41,125
I mean, it's the global reach is the

850
01:31:41,125 --> 01:31:43,833
challenge. So for that we've been

851
01:31:43,833 --> 01:31:46,541
working, doing the skippers works

852
01:31:46,541 --> 01:31:49,291
everywhere, showing what other fishes are

853
01:31:49,291 --> 01:31:55,333
doing and it works. And then making

854
01:31:55,333 --> 01:31:57,250
trials with them and all this.

855
01:31:57,375 --> 01:32:01,208
Well, I mean, I feel as though, you know,

856
01:32:01,208 --> 01:32:03,333
fishers and scientists are very similar,

857
01:32:03,708 --> 01:32:05,666
you know, they experiment, right? You

858
01:32:05,666 --> 01:32:06,958
know, and that's and that's how they do

859
01:32:06,958 --> 01:32:08,541
it because they have to figure out ways.

860
01:32:09,125 --> 01:32:11,125
You're, you know, fishers are working out

861
01:32:11,125 --> 01:32:13,500
on an ocean that can be very calm at

862
01:32:13,500 --> 01:32:15,666
times. But most of the time, it's not as

863
01:32:15,666 --> 01:32:17,583
calm and it's a little chaotic. And there

864
01:32:17,583 --> 01:32:19,833
are times you have to I have a feeling a

865
01:32:19,833 --> 01:32:22,458
lot of the the fish aggregation devices

866
01:32:22,458 --> 01:32:25,166
have developed the way they develop in

867
01:32:25,166 --> 01:32:26,083
certain parts of the world

868
01:32:26,083 --> 01:32:26,250
because of the environment.

869
01:32:27,291 --> 01:32:29,791
That's are surrounded by they have to be

870
01:32:29,791 --> 01:32:31,708
durable. They have to, you know, make

871
01:32:31,708 --> 01:32:32,833
sure that they're still there when they

872
01:32:32,833 --> 01:32:35,333
go out and get them in certain areas like

873
01:32:35,333 --> 01:32:37,250
in the Pacific is it can be very rough.

874
01:32:37,541 --> 01:32:39,291
You know, any any ocean could be

875
01:32:39,291 --> 01:32:41,250
extremely rough and and you have to make

876
01:32:41,250 --> 01:32:42,250
sure that that it works there.

877
01:32:42,291 --> 01:32:45,958
And so I'm sure a lot of the fads have

878
01:32:45,958 --> 01:32:48,291
been rigged that way so that they want

879
01:32:48,291 --> 01:32:50,791
they're just there when you get them. And

880
01:32:50,791 --> 01:32:52,833
and so it's kind of interesting to see

881
01:32:52,833 --> 01:32:55,291
that the different stages of f a d's and

882
01:32:55,291 --> 01:32:57,208
I'm sure they've gotten a lot better, not

883
01:32:57,208 --> 01:32:58,541
only from a conservation standpoint, but

884
01:32:58,541 --> 01:33:00,083
from an efficiency standpoint, as we

885
01:33:00,083 --> 01:33:02,750
talked about with the data and having the

886
01:33:02,750 --> 01:33:06,375
the the the machinery and the data that

887
01:33:06,375 --> 01:33:07,250
you can get from there.

888
01:33:07,250 --> 01:33:09,208
And so I think that's that's really

889
01:33:09,208 --> 01:33:10,541
interesting. Obviously, from a scientific

890
01:33:10,541 --> 01:33:11,958
point of view, as you and I know, both

891
01:33:11,958 --> 01:33:13,625
being scientists, it's it's all

892
01:33:13,625 --> 01:33:15,458
experimentation, right? This is how we

893
01:33:15,458 --> 01:33:17,166
work with things and sometimes it works

894
01:33:17,166 --> 01:33:18,958
out in our favor and sometimes it doesn't

895
01:33:18,958 --> 01:33:20,000
work out in our favor.

896
01:33:20,625 --> 01:33:23,416
But let's you know, when we let's talk

897
01:33:23,416 --> 01:33:25,041
about some of the research that you've

898
01:33:25,041 --> 01:33:28,125
done specifically on can you can you talk

899
01:33:28,125 --> 01:33:31,458
about one of the the projects that you've

900
01:33:31,458 --> 01:33:33,791
worked on recently that we could talk

901
01:33:33,791 --> 01:33:36,791
about in terms of looking at fads and how

902
01:33:36,791 --> 01:33:38,083
it impacts the environment.

903
01:33:39,125 --> 01:33:39,333
Yeah.

904
01:33:40,416 --> 01:33:45,166
I think working mainly lastly in three

905
01:33:45,166 --> 01:33:48,083
topics. One is biodegradable

906
01:33:48,083 --> 01:33:49,666
fat, you can choose one of them.

907
01:33:50,083 --> 01:33:57,083
One is the move towards biodegradable

908
01:33:57,083 --> 01:33:59,666
fat, and this is because those files are

909
01:33:59,666 --> 01:34:01,375
then that lost or abandoned, they can

910
01:34:01,375 --> 01:34:02,583
cause damage on coral

911
01:34:02,583 --> 01:34:04,291
reefs or benthic ecosystems.

912
01:34:05,250 --> 01:34:11,958
So we are we design that is made of

913
01:34:11,958 --> 01:34:16,791
organic materials. And I've been also

914
01:34:16,791 --> 01:34:20,458
working with acoustic discrimination of

915
01:34:20,458 --> 01:34:24,291
tropical species. And this has been this

916
01:34:24,291 --> 01:34:26,166
is still we are working on it.

917
01:34:26,250 --> 01:34:31,000
And this is a huge effort we've done so

918
01:34:31,000 --> 01:34:35,333
that users can have a better estimate of

919
01:34:35,333 --> 01:34:38,083
what they have in the water before they

920
01:34:38,083 --> 01:34:40,166
set the fishing net. So this

921
01:34:40,166 --> 01:34:43,208
is to face more selectively.

922
01:34:44,541 --> 01:34:45,958
So you're talking about actually

923
01:34:45,958 --> 01:34:49,500
detecting the species based on the sound

924
01:34:49,500 --> 01:34:51,333
of the fish like the acoustics of the

925
01:34:51,333 --> 01:34:52,875
fish. So this is like what we do a lot

926
01:34:52,875 --> 01:34:54,791
with marine mammals but marine mammals

927
01:34:54,791 --> 01:34:57,041
emit a noise, you know, they you can hear

928
01:34:57,041 --> 01:34:58,541
their calls in a lot of times you can

929
01:34:58,541 --> 01:35:02,875
tell which whale or whatever is there.

930
01:35:03,708 --> 01:35:05,000
Now you're talking about being able to

931
01:35:05,000 --> 01:35:06,625
distinguish between the different

932
01:35:06,625 --> 01:35:09,083
species. How, how is that? How's that?

933
01:35:10,291 --> 01:35:14,083
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it can happen. And it's

934
01:35:14,083 --> 01:35:19,750
we use a chain of different what in a

935
01:35:19,750 --> 01:35:22,708
fish aggregating devices, we have three

936
01:35:22,708 --> 01:35:25,375
main species tropical tuna species and

937
01:35:25,375 --> 01:35:27,666
that those are skipjack

938
01:35:27,666 --> 01:35:29,250
yellow thing and big guy.

939
01:35:29,250 --> 01:35:33,708
And we are using a difference in their

940
01:35:33,708 --> 01:35:37,958
morphology because the skipjack, they

941
01:35:37,958 --> 01:35:39,000
don't have swim bladder.

942
01:35:39,250 --> 01:35:40,708
Oh, okay.

943
01:35:41,125 --> 01:35:43,791
I don't think I, yeah, and big guy tuna

944
01:35:43,791 --> 01:35:46,416
and yellow thing tuna, they do have the

945
01:35:46,416 --> 01:35:48,625
swim bladder and the swim bladder is a

946
01:35:48,625 --> 01:35:51,958
balloon that feels up inside and it's

947
01:35:51,958 --> 01:35:56,250
filled with air. And this balloon of the

948
01:35:56,250 --> 01:35:58,250
swim bladder is what the

949
01:35:58,250 --> 01:36:00,250
sounds reflect very strongly.

950
01:36:00,291 --> 01:36:05,541
So when you use a given frequency, if you

951
01:36:05,541 --> 01:36:09,083
touch a piece with swim bladder, the

952
01:36:09,083 --> 01:36:12,291
echo, the backscatter of this echo is

953
01:36:12,291 --> 01:36:15,000
going to be a lot more stronger than

954
01:36:15,000 --> 01:36:18,833
those that don't have swim bladder. So at

955
01:36:18,833 --> 01:36:21,500
fish aggregating devices, if we

956
01:36:21,500 --> 01:36:24,875
encounter, for instance, skipjack and big

957
01:36:24,875 --> 01:36:27,375
guy, yeah, we know that

958
01:36:27,375 --> 01:36:29,250
the the frequency response,

959
01:36:29,250 --> 01:36:32,458
of the two species is going to be

960
01:36:32,458 --> 01:36:36,250
different. And this is how we work with

961
01:36:36,250 --> 01:36:40,041
the co6. That is so cool. That's so cool.

962
01:36:40,791 --> 01:36:42,666
Now between the sorry, which were the

963
01:36:42,666 --> 01:36:45,291
ones with the swim bladders, this big guy

964
01:36:45,291 --> 01:36:46,708
in the skipjack? Yes,

965
01:36:47,000 --> 01:36:47,250
they do have swim bladder.

966
01:36:48,250 --> 01:36:50,708
So can you detect between those two

967
01:36:50,708 --> 01:36:53,083
species based on do they, they reflect

968
01:36:53,083 --> 01:36:57,291
back different like backscatter just be

969
01:36:57,291 --> 01:36:58,458
based on their morphology?

970
01:36:59,500 --> 01:37:01,833
It's more difficult. Okay. Yeah. So it's

971
01:37:01,833 --> 01:37:04,166
a little bit. Yeah, it's not a little

972
01:37:04,166 --> 01:37:06,333
bit, right? Yeah, it's more difficult.

973
01:37:06,333 --> 01:37:09,916
But what we found out is that the, the

974
01:37:09,916 --> 01:37:12,958
yellow thing, their

975
01:37:12,958 --> 01:37:16,208
frequency response is flat.

976
01:37:16,291 --> 01:37:20,458
So for instance, if you use low frequency

977
01:37:20,458 --> 01:37:23,541
and a high frequency, the behavior of the

978
01:37:23,541 --> 01:37:25,875
response is going to be quite flat. But

979
01:37:25,875 --> 01:37:29,083
if you use with a big guy, a low

980
01:37:29,083 --> 01:37:31,458
frequency and a high frequency, you will

981
01:37:31,458 --> 01:37:34,416
have a stronger response in low

982
01:37:34,416 --> 01:37:38,041
frequency. So what you need to

983
01:37:38,041 --> 01:37:41,625
discriminate the species is use at the

984
01:37:41,625 --> 01:37:43,875
same time, a low and a high frequency.

985
01:37:44,291 --> 01:37:46,875
And this is what we are working with with

986
01:37:46,875 --> 01:37:49,875
buoy manufacturers and IKEA-SON, the

987
01:37:49,875 --> 01:37:52,916
buoys manufacturers to see if they can

988
01:37:52,916 --> 01:37:57,041
introduce this knowledge in the buoys.

989
01:37:57,041 --> 01:37:59,583
Yeah, that'd be amazing. Yeah, that'd be

990
01:37:59,583 --> 01:38:01,916
phenomenal. Now, let's talk about from an

991
01:38:01,916 --> 01:38:03,416
application standpoint. Obviously, the

992
01:38:03,416 --> 01:38:04,250
science is cool on this.

993
01:38:04,333 --> 01:38:06,958
Like it's I'm geeking out just listening

994
01:38:06,958 --> 01:38:09,666
to this. Like this is a lot of fun. When,

995
01:38:09,666 --> 01:38:10,875
but when we talk about the application

996
01:38:10,875 --> 01:38:13,166
for fishers, right? So you have this,

997
01:38:13,166 --> 01:38:16,125
this instrument, the acoustic instrument

998
01:38:16,125 --> 01:38:18,750
on the buoy, and then it is able to

999
01:38:18,750 --> 01:38:20,708
detect what's there and then bring it

1000
01:38:20,708 --> 01:38:22,500
back to land or to the

1001
01:38:22,500 --> 01:38:23,250
ship of this close by.

1002
01:38:24,250 --> 01:38:27,000
From an application standpoint, are there

1003
01:38:27,000 --> 01:38:29,416
certain times of the year where you can

1004
01:38:29,416 --> 01:38:31,375
catch certain types of species? Is that

1005
01:38:31,375 --> 01:38:33,708
like, are they seasonal and they can only

1006
01:38:33,708 --> 01:38:36,875
catch like say big eye or yellow fin or

1007
01:38:36,875 --> 01:38:37,250
skipjack at certain times of the year?

1008
01:38:37,291 --> 01:38:41,250
In general, they share the three species or two species are present simultaneously. Okay, of course, you can have different species composition and this can vary depending on the presence, the local presence of the different species. But in general, you can find two or three species at the same time. So the challenge is the challenge to

1009
01:39:07,291 --> 01:39:10,250
fish, for instance, only the species that

1010
01:39:10,250 --> 01:39:15,541
it's in healthy condition, let's say this

1011
01:39:15,541 --> 01:39:19,500
is can be done through acoustics because

1012
01:39:19,500 --> 01:39:22,541
otherwise, they fishers will encircle

1013
01:39:22,541 --> 01:39:27,166
always the three species. So the idea

1014
01:39:27,166 --> 01:39:30,125
behind using this acoustic is that

1015
01:39:31,000 --> 01:39:37,541
fishers they have on the bridge screen

1016
01:39:37,541 --> 01:39:41,416
with all the fat they have at sea. So if

1017
01:39:41,416 --> 01:39:44,958
they have a percentage of the species

1018
01:39:44,958 --> 01:39:47,625
present at each fat, they can decide to

1019
01:39:47,625 --> 01:39:50,708
avoid areas with a lot of big eye if big

1020
01:39:50,708 --> 01:39:52,750
eye needs to be protected in that ocean

1021
01:39:52,750 --> 01:39:56,333
or yellow fin if yellow fin needs to be

1022
01:39:56,333 --> 01:39:58,833
protected in that ocean. So the idea is

1023
01:39:58,833 --> 01:39:59,250
that they can be more efficient and more efficient.

1024
01:40:00,250 --> 01:40:05,250
Yeah, so it's not just a guess where you

1025
01:40:05,250 --> 01:40:07,375
just throw the net in, because you know

1026
01:40:07,375 --> 01:40:09,041
that there's fish there. And then you

1027
01:40:09,041 --> 01:40:10,250
just bring it up and then whatever you

1028
01:40:10,250 --> 01:40:11,583
catch you catch if there's certain

1029
01:40:11,583 --> 01:40:13,291
species that may not be doing well that

1030
01:40:13,291 --> 01:40:15,708
year that season, then they can, they can

1031
01:40:15,708 --> 01:40:16,875
just be like, okay, well, we're going to

1032
01:40:16,875 --> 01:40:18,375
go where there's, you know, species that

1033
01:40:18,375 --> 01:40:19,666
are doing better. And we're going to

1034
01:40:19,666 --> 01:40:21,208
leave that for a little bit because we've

1035
01:40:21,208 --> 01:40:22,375
been asked to leave that for a little

1036
01:40:22,375 --> 01:40:24,708
bit. But we still are able to retain the

1037
01:40:24,708 --> 01:40:26,666
same around a yield of a different type

1038
01:40:26,666 --> 01:40:28,250
of species, knowing that it's just it'll be more sustainable. So they can, they can make a lot of different species.

1039
01:40:28,250 --> 01:40:29,416
It'll be more sustainable. So they can,

1040
01:40:29,625 --> 01:40:32,875
they can make in the field decisions that

1041
01:40:32,875 --> 01:40:34,416
are more sustainable, just right off the

1042
01:40:34,416 --> 01:40:36,833
bat, just by having better data and

1043
01:40:36,833 --> 01:40:39,583
science around that. That is awesome.

1044
01:40:40,000 --> 01:40:42,833
That is so cool. Yeah, if you think about

1045
01:40:42,833 --> 01:40:44,000
it, because I mean, it's not there's no

1046
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:46,000
guesswork anymore. And it's not as if,

1047
01:40:46,000 --> 01:40:47,625
well, we just put the net in, we didn't

1048
01:40:47,625 --> 01:40:48,833
know what was in there. We just knew that

1049
01:40:48,833 --> 01:40:50,333
there were fish there. We knew it was

1050
01:40:50,333 --> 01:40:51,916
tuna, but we didn't know which species it

1051
01:40:51,916 --> 01:40:55,458
was. What a find that is so cool.

1052
01:40:56,291 --> 01:40:58,458
So is this being like, so this is where

1053
01:40:58,458 --> 01:41:01,041
are we in terms of like the deployment of

1054
01:41:01,041 --> 01:41:02,250
this? Now we're just trying to figure out

1055
01:41:02,250 --> 01:41:03,708
if we can put it on the buoys and how to

1056
01:41:03,708 --> 01:41:04,625
fasten on the buoys.

1057
01:41:05,250 --> 01:41:07,958
Well, some of the manufacturers are

1058
01:41:07,958 --> 01:41:12,083
already working with two frequencies. But

1059
01:41:12,083 --> 01:41:13,500
here there are there are many

1060
01:41:13,500 --> 01:41:15,916
improvements to introduce because you can

1061
01:41:15,916 --> 01:41:18,375
improve your hardware, for instance,

1062
01:41:18,666 --> 01:41:21,041
having a dual beam transducer. So.

1063
01:41:22,458 --> 01:41:25,708
When the the eco comes, you know where it

1064
01:41:25,708 --> 01:41:28,041
comes from in the beam. So there are some

1065
01:41:28,041 --> 01:41:31,083
hardware improvements. And then there is

1066
01:41:31,083 --> 01:41:35,208
the improvement of the how to translate

1067
01:41:35,208 --> 01:41:37,458
the decibels or so the

1068
01:41:37,458 --> 01:41:39,500
electric signal into biomass.

1069
01:41:40,458 --> 01:41:44,333
So we are working in these two things

1070
01:41:44,333 --> 01:41:46,500
together with manufacturers. And in fact,

1071
01:41:46,500 --> 01:41:50,750
we are now in in like three projects with

1072
01:41:50,750 --> 01:41:53,041
manufacturers, the three manufacturers

1073
01:41:53,041 --> 01:41:55,833
existing nowadays to improve their

1074
01:41:55,833 --> 01:41:57,041
hardware and

1075
01:41:57,041 --> 01:41:58,833
interpretation of the signals.

1076
01:41:59,416 --> 01:41:59,625
Yes.

1077
01:42:00,875 --> 01:42:05,125
Unreal. Unreal. Even to think about this,

1078
01:42:05,125 --> 01:42:06,875
like from a conservation standpoint, this

1079
01:42:06,875 --> 01:42:08,541
is huge. I mean, tuna are in trouble. We

1080
01:42:08,541 --> 01:42:10,708
know that like with, you know, with it

1081
01:42:10,708 --> 01:42:12,125
with the amount of fishing that's been

1082
01:42:12,125 --> 01:42:14,916
done in the past and just not being able

1083
01:42:14,916 --> 01:42:16,250
to distinguish which fish are down there.

1084
01:42:16,250 --> 01:42:19,000
And and a lot of the times we blame

1085
01:42:19,000 --> 01:42:21,666
fishers and we blame the industry and in

1086
01:42:21,666 --> 01:42:23,250
a certain degree, it can be. But if they

1087
01:42:23,250 --> 01:42:24,875
don't know what species are underwater,

1088
01:42:24,875 --> 01:42:27,041
which is very difficult to tell, then

1089
01:42:27,041 --> 01:42:30,250
it's difficult to manage that. Now we're

1090
01:42:30,250 --> 01:42:31,708
at the, you know, we're on the precipice

1091
01:42:31,708 --> 01:42:34,375
of being able to deploy these, you know,

1092
01:42:34,375 --> 01:42:36,500
on buoy systems on these on these fads

1093
01:42:36,500 --> 01:42:38,250
and just being like, okay, we've actually

1094
01:42:38,250 --> 01:42:40,000
been able to protect certain species at

1095
01:42:40,000 --> 01:42:40,250
certain times of the year.

1096
01:42:40,291 --> 01:42:42,708
It's certain, you know, when they're when

1097
01:42:42,708 --> 01:42:43,958
they're maybe a little bit lower, and

1098
01:42:43,958 --> 01:42:45,666
then we can focus in on other species.

1099
01:42:45,958 --> 01:42:47,833
And that just brings fisheries management

1100
01:42:47,833 --> 01:42:50,041
to a different level. But it also brings

1101
01:42:50,041 --> 01:42:51,250
fishing to a different level. They don't

1102
01:42:51,250 --> 01:42:53,541
have to just be indiscriminate. They

1103
01:42:53,541 --> 01:42:54,916
could discriminate on the types of

1104
01:42:54,916 --> 01:42:56,500
species that they can they can capture.

1105
01:42:56,791 --> 01:42:59,416
That's awesome. That's phenomenal. What a

1106
01:42:59,416 --> 01:43:01,750
win. What a great win. How does that when

1107
01:43:01,750 --> 01:43:03,708
you see that, like, how did that whole

1108
01:43:03,708 --> 01:43:05,750
idea come together? Like, was that a

1109
01:43:05,750 --> 01:43:08,250
number of you at ISSF? Was that somebody, like one of your partners, one of your partners, one of your partners?

1110
01:43:08,291 --> 01:43:10,208
Somebody like one of your partners

1111
01:43:10,208 --> 01:43:12,083
working on that? Where did the idea come

1112
01:43:12,083 --> 01:43:15,416
from? Well, the idea came from an old

1113
01:43:15,416 --> 01:43:18,375
project when I was doing my PhD. Yeah,

1114
01:43:18,375 --> 01:43:22,791
because I was using to study tuna

1115
01:43:22,791 --> 01:43:27,541
behavior. I was using eco Saunders with

1116
01:43:27,541 --> 01:43:31,916
IRD. It's a Francistitute. Okay. And we

1117
01:43:31,916 --> 01:43:34,458
were using different frequencies and some

1118
01:43:34,458 --> 01:43:35,583
French acousticians

1119
01:43:35,583 --> 01:43:37,250
already were working on the idea.

1120
01:43:37,291 --> 01:43:39,375
Working on the idea of this

1121
01:43:39,375 --> 01:43:43,666
discrimination. Yeah, from an IRD. And so

1122
01:43:43,666 --> 01:43:47,083
I continue after my PhD on this line. It

1123
01:43:47,083 --> 01:43:49,750
was really it has been a lot of work

1124
01:43:49,750 --> 01:43:54,041
because we knew nothing about the

1125
01:43:54,041 --> 01:43:56,791
acoustic signal of tropical tuners. So we

1126
01:43:56,791 --> 01:44:00,666
started from almost nothing. So we had to

1127
01:44:00,666 --> 01:44:02,916
spend a long time at sea

1128
01:44:02,916 --> 01:44:06,250
and taking sampling, having

1129
01:44:06,291 --> 01:44:11,416
data and working a lot. And especially

1130
01:44:11,416 --> 01:44:13,500
this last year's we've been working with

1131
01:44:13,500 --> 01:44:16,625
ASTI, which is the Spanish Institute of

1132
01:44:16,625 --> 01:44:19,500
Research. Yeah. And the acousticians

1133
01:44:19,500 --> 01:44:25,291
there are working on this with ISSF. That

1134
01:44:25,291 --> 01:44:28,708
is phenomenal. That is so cool. And

1135
01:44:28,708 --> 01:44:31,083
Andrew, you know, it's not just fishing

1136
01:44:31,083 --> 01:44:34,500
selectively, but scientists, we are very

1137
01:44:34,500 --> 01:44:35,250
interested in having

1138
01:44:35,291 --> 01:44:39,833
this data for research because imagine if

1139
01:44:39,833 --> 01:44:43,416
you have all the data from the fat and

1140
01:44:43,416 --> 01:44:46,125
the numbers of species and individuals

1141
01:44:46,125 --> 01:44:50,416
behind the fat, you can understand many

1142
01:44:50,416 --> 01:44:52,083
different things about these are

1143
01:44:52,083 --> 01:44:54,666
beginning devices and even define new

1144
01:44:54,666 --> 01:44:58,000
measures. Well, it's not just but you

1145
01:44:58,000 --> 01:44:59,208
just learn more about the ocean in

1146
01:44:59,208 --> 01:45:01,125
general, you have all these like these

1147
01:45:01,125 --> 01:45:03,250
fads deployed around the world. I know what they're for, you know, the

1148
01:45:03,833 --> 01:45:08,375
for to extract fish. But it's also as you

1149
01:45:08,375 --> 01:45:10,166
put more and more data systems on there.

1150
01:45:10,791 --> 01:45:13,375
You have this network of of data

1151
01:45:13,375 --> 01:45:15,541
acquisition from an oceanography

1152
01:45:15,541 --> 01:45:17,458
standpoint, that's, that's amazing price,

1153
01:45:17,666 --> 01:45:19,875
especially in like areas where it's, I

1154
01:45:19,875 --> 01:45:21,250
assume that a lot of these are in the

1155
01:45:21,250 --> 01:45:23,750
high seas. And you're just like, we don't

1156
01:45:23,750 --> 01:45:25,125
know much about the high seas to have

1157
01:45:25,125 --> 01:45:27,041
this data acquisition there and to and to

1158
01:45:27,041 --> 01:45:28,625
have that relationship with fissures.

1159
01:45:28,625 --> 01:45:29,833
That's what it really comes down to to

1160
01:45:29,833 --> 01:45:31,250
say, hey, like, can we actually access some of that data so we can access that data? And so, yeah, I think that's the way it is.

1161
01:45:31,291 --> 01:45:36,208
And I think that really goes towards

1162
01:45:36,208 --> 01:45:39,083
building that relationship with the

1163
01:45:39,083 --> 01:45:40,625
fishing fleet, because that could have

1164
01:45:40,625 --> 01:45:42,416
just been proprietary information. Now

1165
01:45:42,416 --> 01:45:44,875
they're sharing it, you can make these

1166
01:45:44,875 --> 01:45:47,791
assumptions and hypotheses and test them

1167
01:45:47,791 --> 01:45:49,083
and experiment with them and just be

1168
01:45:49,083 --> 01:45:51,625
like, okay, like now we can figure out

1169
01:45:51,625 --> 01:45:53,166
that there's different frequencies for

1170
01:45:53,166 --> 01:45:55,375
swim bladders and some fish don't have

1171
01:45:55,375 --> 01:45:56,708
them so that we can be able to tell

1172
01:45:56,708 --> 01:45:58,750
between species and make it better for

1173
01:45:58,750 --> 01:46:00,250
conservation purposes, which is a win-win for every species.

1174
01:46:00,291 --> 01:46:02,583
Which is a win-win for everybody in, you

1175
01:46:02,583 --> 01:46:03,875
know, from the fishing fleet to the

1176
01:46:03,875 --> 01:46:05,875
scientists to to the world. I mean, I

1177
01:46:05,875 --> 01:46:07,875
think that's, that's, that's really

1178
01:46:07,875 --> 01:46:09,833
great. I love that. I'm so glad you told

1179
01:46:09,833 --> 01:46:10,666
me about that project.

1180
01:46:11,125 --> 01:46:12,250
I think that's great.

1181
01:46:12,250 --> 01:46:13,791
Question I should ask about that though

1182
01:46:13,791 --> 01:46:16,000
is, is that when you work with different

1183
01:46:16,000 --> 01:46:18,833
fleets around the world, are, are they

1184
01:46:18,833 --> 01:46:21,250
all trying to like, are they all trying

1185
01:46:21,250 --> 01:46:23,875
to like, be more conservation friendly?

1186
01:46:24,208 --> 01:46:25,375
Like, do they want to be more

1187
01:46:25,375 --> 01:46:26,875
conservation friendly? Do they want to

1188
01:46:26,875 --> 01:46:29,791
work with this type of data that you have

1189
01:46:29,791 --> 01:46:31,791
and, and try and experiment? Are they

1190
01:46:31,791 --> 01:46:33,250
open to that type of thing?

1191
01:46:34,250 --> 01:46:39,375
There is diversity on that. Some, some

1192
01:46:39,375 --> 01:46:42,958
fleets are really proactive. Yeah. And

1193
01:46:42,958 --> 01:46:46,208
they like and they want and they, and

1194
01:46:46,208 --> 01:46:50,000
also the, the, I mean, the ship owner,

1195
01:46:50,000 --> 01:46:51,708
for instance, a big company, if the ship

1196
01:46:51,708 --> 01:46:54,791
owners have a policy to be sustainable,

1197
01:46:55,458 --> 01:46:57,166
this is great and it's easy.

1198
01:46:57,291 --> 01:47:03,375
But then you have other fleets that they

1199
01:47:03,375 --> 01:47:06,083
don't believe they need to improve.

1200
01:47:06,500 --> 01:47:08,791
That's happening. Yeah. Yeah, of course.

1201
01:47:08,958 --> 01:47:12,791
So, yeah. So I think it takes time, but

1202
01:47:12,791 --> 01:47:15,916
it's improving. So it's a

1203
01:47:15,916 --> 01:47:17,250
matter of sharing with them.

1204
01:47:17,250 --> 01:47:20,916
You see, this is a biodegradable fat and

1205
01:47:20,916 --> 01:47:24,375
it works as well as the conventional fat

1206
01:47:24,375 --> 01:47:27,125
and this fleet is using another plate is

1207
01:47:27,125 --> 01:47:30,375
using it and it works. Yeah. So it takes

1208
01:47:30,375 --> 01:47:32,583
more time with those fleet. But the good

1209
01:47:32,583 --> 01:47:36,416
thing is that the police that are doing

1210
01:47:36,416 --> 01:47:40,125
well and are making a big effort to

1211
01:47:40,125 --> 01:47:42,375
improve sustainability with

1212
01:47:42,375 --> 01:47:45,250
fat, they push the others.

1213
01:47:45,666 --> 01:47:48,291
They push, they are pushing the others

1214
01:47:48,291 --> 01:47:50,625
because nobody wants to fall behind.

1215
01:47:51,125 --> 01:47:54,750
Right. True. And so when features see at

1216
01:47:54,750 --> 01:47:57,625
sea, Oh, look, they are using this. We

1217
01:47:57,625 --> 01:48:00,500
should move. Then they ask and start

1218
01:48:00,500 --> 01:48:04,666
contacting us. Sometimes it's, it's,

1219
01:48:04,666 --> 01:48:06,541
it's, it sometimes takes longer. It

1220
01:48:06,541 --> 01:48:07,250
depends on the fleet.

1221
01:48:07,291 --> 01:48:09,291
Right. But then again, it goes towards

1222
01:48:09,291 --> 01:48:10,458
building the relationship with other

1223
01:48:10,458 --> 01:48:11,833
fleets and then those fleets are in

1224
01:48:11,833 --> 01:48:14,333
discussion with, with each other as well.

1225
01:48:14,333 --> 01:48:15,916
And that, you know, putting them out of

1226
01:48:15,916 --> 01:48:16,500
pressure, being like, Hey,

1227
01:48:16,500 --> 01:48:17,583
this actually works out well.

1228
01:48:17,583 --> 01:48:19,791
And having that almost like reference or

1229
01:48:19,791 --> 01:48:22,041
referral from, from one other fleet to

1230
01:48:22,041 --> 01:48:24,000
say, no, like the ISF is really great.

1231
01:48:24,000 --> 01:48:25,666
They, they work really well and they're

1232
01:48:25,666 --> 01:48:27,833
here for us as well as conservation. So I

1233
01:48:27,833 --> 01:48:29,416
think that, that bodes well.

1234
01:48:30,291 --> 01:48:31,916
Yeah. Now, one of the things, you know,

1235
01:48:31,916 --> 01:48:33,416
ISSF and the work that you're doing are

1236
01:48:33,416 --> 01:48:35,333
sometimes like, as we just talked about

1237
01:48:35,333 --> 01:48:38,250
is on the cusp of, you know, you know,

1238
01:48:38,250 --> 01:48:39,625
new technology and innovation.

1239
01:48:40,958 --> 01:48:42,541
And obviously, you know, you share that

1240
01:48:42,541 --> 01:48:43,833
with the fleets and you share that with,

1241
01:48:43,833 --> 01:48:46,000
with the fleets all over the world. But

1242
01:48:46,000 --> 01:48:48,958
as a, as a scientist, you, you want to be

1243
01:48:48,958 --> 01:48:50,916
able to share that within the scientific

1244
01:48:50,916 --> 01:48:52,083
community is especially

1245
01:48:52,083 --> 01:48:53,750
with early career scientists.

1246
01:48:54,250 --> 01:48:55,333
And so, you know, you never teach

1247
01:48:55,333 --> 01:48:57,750
students as well and share this with

1248
01:48:57,750 --> 01:49:00,250
students like this type of work and, and,

1249
01:49:00,250 --> 01:49:03,083
and, uh, and get them like excited about

1250
01:49:03,083 --> 01:49:04,291
the new technology that's out.

1251
01:49:04,833 --> 01:49:08,291
Yeah, sure. I mean, not now because I'm

1252
01:49:08,291 --> 01:49:10,541
now focused on research, but before I

1253
01:49:10,541 --> 01:49:13,833
was, I was teaching, sometimes I gave,

1254
01:49:14,125 --> 01:49:17,708
um, masters and things like this. Yeah.

1255
01:49:18,208 --> 01:49:20,250
And working with young people.

1256
01:49:21,250 --> 01:49:23,458
Nice. Nice. And how do you, how do you

1257
01:49:23,458 --> 01:49:24,833
find like when they, so you were actually

1258
01:49:24,833 --> 01:49:27,125
like, like, um, like on a committees for

1259
01:49:27,125 --> 01:49:29,041
graduate students. So if they did, I

1260
01:49:29,041 --> 01:49:30,500
don't know how it's done in the, in, in

1261
01:49:30,500 --> 01:49:31,750
Europe when they, when you do your

1262
01:49:31,750 --> 01:49:33,708
graduate work, but do you defend your

1263
01:49:33,708 --> 01:49:35,583
thesis at the end? Is that, yeah.

1264
01:49:36,000 --> 01:49:37,416
So you have a committee and so you're on

1265
01:49:37,416 --> 01:49:39,291
the committees. That's awesome. And so

1266
01:49:39,291 --> 01:49:41,833
are you still in, like, does the ISSF

1267
01:49:41,833 --> 01:49:42,375
still have

1268
01:49:42,375 --> 01:49:43,916
relationships with the universities?

1269
01:49:44,250 --> 01:49:48,250
Sure, sure. And yeah, we are always

1270
01:49:48,250 --> 01:49:52,666
envying in juries many times and we

1271
01:49:52,666 --> 01:49:56,541
continue writing. I mean, science is our,

1272
01:49:56,833 --> 01:50:02,375
I mean, I, many times I have a invitation

1273
01:50:02,375 --> 01:50:05,458
to be jury or to be the

1274
01:50:05,458 --> 01:50:08,958
mentor for a work for students.

1275
01:50:09,291 --> 01:50:12,083
Yeah. Yeah. We are probably, we are

1276
01:50:12,083 --> 01:50:15,416
sharing, we share an important part of

1277
01:50:15,416 --> 01:50:18,625
our work is not just research, but

1278
01:50:18,625 --> 01:50:21,666
communication with scientists writing

1279
01:50:21,666 --> 01:50:26,250
papers, attending conferences, giving

1280
01:50:26,250 --> 01:50:30,208
conferences. And so we try to

1281
01:50:30,208 --> 01:50:32,000
do a little bit of everything.

1282
01:50:32,250 --> 01:50:34,333
Yeah. Which is hard.

1283
01:50:34,541 --> 01:50:35,250
It takes a lot of time.

1284
01:50:35,291 --> 01:50:40,625
Yeah. For instance, now, uh, next month

1285
01:50:40,625 --> 01:50:45,958
I'm visiting China and I will be see when

1286
01:50:45,958 --> 01:50:48,583
I have a workshop on biodegradable fats

1287
01:50:48,583 --> 01:50:50,541
together with the Pacific community,

1288
01:50:51,166 --> 01:50:52,541
which is the science

1289
01:50:52,541 --> 01:50:55,250
provider for the WCPFC.

1290
01:50:55,291 --> 01:51:01,541
Okay. And we have a, and that trip we are

1291
01:51:01,541 --> 01:51:03,000
going to do everything. I mean, we are

1292
01:51:03,000 --> 01:51:08,333
going to do a workshop with fishers with

1293
01:51:08,333 --> 01:51:11,916
manufacturers to teach them how to do a

1294
01:51:11,916 --> 01:51:15,666
bio degradable fat, what tuna reformation

1295
01:51:15,666 --> 01:51:20,750
requiring the need for fleets, what is

1296
01:51:20,750 --> 01:51:21,500
working, what

1297
01:51:21,500 --> 01:51:24,125
everything with these companies.

1298
01:51:25,250 --> 01:51:27,291
And we are going to look for organic

1299
01:51:27,291 --> 01:51:29,875
materials in China so that they can

1300
01:51:29,875 --> 01:51:32,041
supply the fleets in the Western Pacific.

1301
01:51:32,416 --> 01:51:34,125
And then we are visiting the university

1302
01:51:34,125 --> 01:51:39,125
in Shanghai for lecture. So it's like, we

1303
01:51:39,125 --> 01:51:41,208
have everything there.

1304
01:51:42,250 --> 01:51:42,458
Yeah. And so, and I think that's amazing

1305
01:51:42,458 --> 01:51:45,333
to be able to provide that almost all

1306
01:51:45,333 --> 01:51:47,208
services and to be able to share that

1307
01:51:47,208 --> 01:51:49,916
information across different, you know,

1308
01:51:49,916 --> 01:51:52,083
scientists, the public and so forth. I

1309
01:51:52,083 --> 01:51:54,250
think that's really great. And for you to

1310
01:51:54,250 --> 01:51:56,791
come on here and spend your time, you

1311
01:51:56,791 --> 01:51:59,000
know, busy time with us and be able to

1312
01:51:59,000 --> 01:52:01,083
share the research that you have with us

1313
01:52:01,083 --> 01:52:03,041
and the work that you do is really

1314
01:52:03,041 --> 01:52:05,458
amazing. So, I just want to thank you so

1315
01:52:05,458 --> 01:52:07,458
much for coming on the How to Protect the

1316
01:52:07,458 --> 01:52:08,791
Ocean podcast. It's been such a pleasure

1317
01:52:08,791 --> 01:52:10,416
to have you on. Love to have you back on

1318
01:52:10,416 --> 01:52:11,250
and talk more about the research that you're doing.

1319
01:52:11,250 --> 01:52:18,125
Okay. Thank you for having me. Thank you,

1320
01:52:18,125 --> 01:52:19,583
Galla, for joining us on today's episode

1321
01:52:19,583 --> 01:52:20,833
of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

1322
01:52:21,041 --> 01:52:22,541
It was great to have you. I love being

1323
01:52:22,541 --> 01:52:24,708
able to have people on that are able to

1324
01:52:24,708 --> 01:52:26,875
explain a lot of the things that we may

1325
01:52:26,875 --> 01:52:28,666
or may not know that goes on in the

1326
01:52:28,666 --> 01:52:30,500
fishing industry. This really is

1327
01:52:30,500 --> 01:52:33,333
important to learning more about the

1328
01:52:33,333 --> 01:52:35,666
ocean and being more aware of how things

1329
01:52:35,666 --> 01:52:38,041
are caught and what is good and what is

1330
01:52:38,041 --> 01:52:40,250
bad from a perception of from a consumer perspective.

1331
01:52:40,250 --> 01:52:45,583
I want to know that when I go to a to go

1332
01:52:45,583 --> 01:52:48,500
buy seafood, if I go buy like a tuna poke

1333
01:52:48,500 --> 01:52:50,791
bowl, go to Hawaii in a few weeks and I

1334
01:52:50,791 --> 01:52:53,500
want to make sure that, you know, I get

1335
01:52:53,500 --> 01:52:54,958
the right poke bowl. I want to make sure

1336
01:52:54,958 --> 01:52:56,208
that I'm catching something that's

1337
01:52:56,208 --> 01:52:58,500
sustainably caught if it is sustainably

1338
01:52:58,500 --> 01:52:59,625
caught. And that's the that's the

1339
01:52:59,625 --> 01:53:00,875
decision that we have to make. But the

1340
01:53:00,875 --> 01:53:02,541
only way we can make that decision is

1341
01:53:02,541 --> 01:53:04,291
based on data and based on science. And

1342
01:53:04,291 --> 01:53:05,583
that's what the International Seafood

1343
01:53:05,583 --> 01:53:07,708
Sustainability Foundation does. It helps

1344
01:53:07,708 --> 01:53:09,250
us understand more about what's happening in the ocean.

1345
01:53:14,791 --> 01:53:16,333
And of course, you can subscribe and hit

1346
01:53:16,333 --> 01:53:17,625
that notification bell if you're watching

1347
01:53:17,625 --> 01:53:19,083
this on YouTube or if you

1348
01:53:19,083 --> 01:53:19,250
prefer to watch this on YouTube.

1349
01:53:21,250 --> 01:53:50,333
And of course, you can watch this on Spotify. You can listen to on Spotify and listen to it on Apple Podcast as well as your other favorite Apple Podcast or your favorite podcast apps. We're going to be talking about the ocean podcast, the ocean podcast, the ocean podcast, and the ocean podcast. So

1350
01:53:50,333 --> 01:53:51,708
I want to thank you so much for joining

1351
01:53:51,708 --> 01:53:53,083
me on today's episode of the how to

1352
01:53:53,083 --> 01:53:54,583
protect the ocean podcast. Thank you as

1353
01:53:54,583 --> 01:53:56,625
well. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. Thank

1354
01:53:56,625 --> 01:53:58,250
you so much for joining us. Have a great

1355
01:53:58,250 --> 01:53:59,250
day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.