Is Renewable Energy is Cost-Effective?

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Are you up to date on what's happening with renewable energy? It is a

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fascinating industry that is changing just like any other

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tech space at a rapid, rapid pace. The problem is

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a lot of the news and media that's coming out is based on

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what happened 10 years ago or even 20 years ago. And that

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is a problem because that is affecting how people see renewable

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energy in the future. even though behind the

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scenes, renewable energy is increasing in every country.

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It's a really interesting thing that we're going to talk about on today's episode, because I

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have Mark Zacharias, who is the executive director of Clean

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Energy Canada. He is here to talk about an article that was written on

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the Fraser Institute website, which is not really known as

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the best type of information. And he had some comments on an

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article that talked about how renewable energy is going to be a

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lot more expensive than we think. He refutes that. We talk

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about it on today's episode. So this is the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Let's start the show. Hey,

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everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm

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your host, Angelo. And this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how

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you can speak up for the ocean, what you can do to live for a better ocean by

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taking action. If this is your first time here, your second time here, or

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you want to know more about the ocean because you're just like, there's a lot going on

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in the world today. We hear climate change. We hear oceans. How

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do we worry about it? How do we fix it? How do we do all this stuff about

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it? You can do so by just going to our website speakupforblue.com. We

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have over 1700 episodes just on this podcast alone.

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Plus we are part of a little bit of a network and we have more episodes on

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sharks, on veterinarians and marine veterinarians. We have it on

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wildlife biology and wildlife biologists. We

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have everything. So go over to speakupforblue.com and click

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your inbox, just go to speakupforblue.com forward slash

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Friday, 8 a.m. Eastern, every Monday to Friday. So

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speakupforblue.com forward slash newsletter for that

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information. All right. We're talking to Mark Zacharias, Executive

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Director of Clean Energy Canada today. He's going to talk about

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an article that he commented on. I found his article on LinkedIn or

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his commentary on LinkedIn basically saying, hey, look, this article

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is saying a lot of stuff, but it's a lot of the information is outdated. They're just

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kind of bringing it back. But there's been a lot of advancements over the last 10, five,

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even two, three years. And that we're really progressing on.

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In fact, there are some governments in Canada, provincial governments

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that have actually been accelerating their investment and their projects on

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renewable energies, even though when they first came into power, the

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Ontario Conservatives were not having it. They cancelled a

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bunch of contracts, but now they've actually increased it. And we also talk

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about the carbon tax. Oh, oh, the

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carbon tax. It is the bane of existence for a lot of us, but

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it's done its job. We talk about how it's done its job. And Mark

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also talks about what could happen in the future if the

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new government that comes in in October or whenever the

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next Canadian election is, will that carbon tax be there? And

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if it's not, what will happen? And what

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do we need to worry about if we need to worry about anything at all? So we're gonna talk

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all about that this interview, and this is Mark Zacharias, Executive

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Director of Clean Energy Canada, talking about the article

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and carbon tax. Enjoy, and I'll talk to you after. Hey

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Mark, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to

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Right on. I'm so excited about this. Mark, you and I

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have known each other for a long time. We actually shared the same supervisor

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for our graduate work, believe it or not, way back in the day for both of us.

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And this is really fun because right now

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we're going to be talking about clean energy. There was an article that was put on

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a website, the Fraser Institute, that said clean energy is going

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to cost a lot of money. And you had some comments on that on

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LinkedIn. And I asked you, hey, let's talk about it on the podcast, because

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I want people to hear some of the stuff that goes on and some of the information

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that was used, some of the data that was using that information. It

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was, you know, used from like 19 years ago, as you mentioned before. And

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so I want to talk about what the new information is, what your comments

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are, and where we should be thinking about renewable energy in the future,

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especially some of the myths that are going on about renewable energy and

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the costs and sort of what it's going to do to our grid and everything. So

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we're going to get into all that, but before we do, Mark, can you just let us know who you

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Thanks, Andrew. My name is Mark Zacharias. I am

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the Executive Director of Clean Energy Canada. We are a

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climate and clean energy think tank based out of Simon Fraser University, and

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And it's a great organization too. I love going

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on your website. You always have useful tips and strategies and

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just like, it almost explains the carbon tax

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so well. We had Jana on a number of months ago. We

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talked about the carbon tax. We talked about heat exchanger programs in Canada, but

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we're gonna talk more today about an article

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that was put out by the Fraser Institute. Can you just tell us a little

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Yeah, there's been a number of commentators recently that have basically

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put out three kind of different arguments around

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renewable energy and focusing a little bit on British Columbia,

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but really they're relevant Canada wide and globally. The

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first one is that renewable energy costs too much and it's intermittent.

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So therefore it makes grids less reliable and it drives up costs for

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the consumer at the end of the day, which you pay in your electricity rate. So that's kind

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of the first argument. The second one is that

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climate policies will break the grid. So this is things

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like EV sales mandates. It's things like heat pump mandates. It's

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banning natural gas and new developments that all of this. adds

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more stress to the electricity grid and will eventually overwhelm it

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or again, drive up costs. I think the third argument you're

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seeing from a lot of groups across Canada is that Canadian utilities

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do import a lot of power in certain situations. The

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suggestion is that by importing power, this means that you

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have some type of structural electricity deficit. Again,

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we want to respond to all of these because You know, there's

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nuggets of truth around all of these and there's different examples worldwide where

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these things have happened. But, you know, right now in this day

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and time around the globe, most of these are

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Right. And I think one of the things that really bothers

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me about this type of information, especially around renewable

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energy, fossil fuels, it seems like the messages are

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corrupted on purpose. It seems like we've known from

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the past, like from climate change and the climate change

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messaging coming from the decades past that we know even

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oil companies have come out and said, yes, we actually perpetuated those climate

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denial types of information and that climate change didn't exist and

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it was all a scheme done by

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environmentalists and so forth. And even now with renewable energy,

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I hear a lot of friends and family talk about renewable energy and

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you hear those myths that

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just continue to come up and that misinformation that continues to come up and

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up and up. Like the information that you talked about,

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that some of the stuff is true, but also it's blown out of proportion or it's

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not using updated data. Where's that information coming?

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You know, there's a couple of points to make, and I think you've had

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a very good set up for this conversation that, you

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know, a lot of the information that people have in their heads that they've heard are,

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you know, are things that were, again, relevant, you know, 10 or 15 years ago.

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You know, people constantly refer back to Kathleen Wynne and

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the Ontario government around renewable deployment, which was almost 10 years

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ago. And again, you know, that was done in a way where technology was

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not cost effective and the rate design program actually drove

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up costs for consumers. So people remember that and they

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keep coming back to kind of what's transpired. The other part that

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we notice a lot and more recently is that renewable energy,

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EVs, heat pumps, they've all become part of the culture wars. And

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you're either on TVV or Team Renewable Energy,

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or you're not. And the reality is that if you look at

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the US, for example, you know, the states that

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have the five highest renewable and solar shares in

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their electricity system, You know, they've got Republican governors, they've

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been Republican held. So, you know, what you're seeing on

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the ground is very different than the stories that are being told

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in the media and on podcasts and other

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It is, it is interesting and but it's also it's frustrating. Sometimes,

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for me to continue to hear this kind of stuff and you

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want as you want the information coming forward and that's what I love about your

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organization is that it provides that information. And it's

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like, you're an organization that just puts

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out the information and for anybody to read it. And I really enjoy how

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it's disseminated because it makes it so easy to understand. Because

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it can be complex, renewable energy and just energy sector

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in general, especially here in Canada. There's a lot of

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culture involvement in that and history, good

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and bad. And it's nice to be able to find an

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organization that's ready to put out that information that's truthful and

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updated and follows that. I feel like we don't have

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enough of that. So thank you for you and your staff and

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your team to be able to do that. Now let's sort

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of get into this article. You mentioned those three points. You had some

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three points like rebuttals in the end. So let's start with

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the beginning. That's that it drives up cost, right? Renewable

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Yeah. And you know our experience and looking

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worldwide in jurisdictions that are moving their electricity grids off

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of coal and natural gas and other fossil fuels has

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been actually the opposite. And let's look at

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some jurisdictions. South Australia is a great example. their

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electricity grid 10 years ago was almost exclusively fossil-powered, natural

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gas and coal. Since then, because they don't have a

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lot of domestic reserves of coal, they had to import a lot of their energy, they

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made a conscious decision over multiple premiers during this time

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to actually switch to a renewable grid. Right

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now, their grid is 75% wind and solar. and

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they have a very large proportion of battery storage. And then what they've been

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able to do is they've been able to commit that their grid

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will be 100% renewable powered, and that's all solar, all grid, by

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2027. And, you know, it's remarkable kind

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of what's happened there. The other ones I would look at is some

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of the U.S. states, like Iowa is a classic example. So

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they went all in wind a couple of years ago. So 55% of

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their electricity grid is now powered by wind. And

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that's a massive share. And again, their electricity costs

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are 25% less than the U.S. average. Even

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Texas, which has a 37% solar and wind

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share in their electricity system. their electricity costs, again,

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25% less than the U.S. average. So you can actually do it. And

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even if you look here at home in Canada, look over at Alberta. There

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was a renewable procurement a couple of years ago in Alberta, and

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they got power bids coming in around $0.05 a kilowatt hour. And,

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you know, that's remarkable. And again, that's the power that's produced. But if

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you look at the domestic Alberta electricity rate, you know, it's

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almost 26 cents kilowatt hours. The delta between what

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you can produce that versus what you can sell to the retail consumer has

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a great opportunity to make money. So there are

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examples all over the world. And, you know, What I think

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people point to is they point to the examples that don't work, or

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where things have gone wrong, or where there's extenuating circumstances. Everybody

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points to Germany, going, oh my God, look at electricity costs in Germany. A

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couple of things happen there. One is they shut down nuclear plants. Two

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is they are based in an EU electricity market that

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has a lot of peculiarities to it. what

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happens is it can drive up electricity rates. Then they also point

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to the war in Ukraine where Germany had made a bet on Russian gas

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and they had to get off fairly quickly. That's an example. Another

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one people point to is California. Californians pay about

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$0.30 a kilowatt hour US for power, which is astronomical. Compare

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that to the Canadian average around $0.15 or $0.16 a

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Canadian, and there's quite a difference in that. And again, you know,

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there's a whole bunch of structural issues kind of behind why

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those power rates are so high. Some of them historical, some of

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the more recent, you know, the more recent ones are that they are

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having to rebuild their entire electricity grid because of climate

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change and in wildfires. So, you know, all those costs get

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put back on the right pair. And so, you know, the

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answer at the end of the day is complicated. So the bottom line though is

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if you do it it right if you plan ahead and if you

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actually have all your facts together and everything

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lined up, you can build renewables into your grid and you can

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save money, address affordability, you can attract industry, you can do

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all sorts of things right. Maybe the last thing I'll say before

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you jump to the next question is, Ontario is such an

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interesting study right now. If you remember when Doug Ford came

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in, he canceled 700 plus renewable energy

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contracts. And in the last two years, the opposite has

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happened. Ontario has almost two

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site C's worth of battery storage procurements that are now finished. They're

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looking at building more renewables for the grid

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right now. They just announced last week 10 plus billion

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dollars to help homeowners switch to heat pumps and

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other technologies that are going to save them money and clean up the grid. So I

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Yeah, yeah. It's funny, though. I live in Ontario. I haven't

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heard that. And I'm pretty, I follow

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this quite frequently. I wonder, you

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know, he's, you know, he's come out, Doug Ford, the Premier has

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come out very against renewables saying it's like

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the costs are too high. Has it changed over his last,

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Oh, absolutely. I mean, Ontario through

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its utilities and its regulators have been looking at procuring

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more wind power, particularly from some of the northern parts of

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the province. You know, the battery storage and

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what they've done there is quite amazing. You know, they're bringing nuclear

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back online on time, on budget, you know, and in the

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atomic and nuclear world, that's almost unheard of to be able to do that. So,

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I mean, good on Ontario for you know, for

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kind of realizing the error of their ways when

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they first came into power and realizing that, hey, wait a minute, clean energy

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is something that a lot of foreign investment is looking for. And

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if you look at the 50 plus billion dollars of kind of automotive

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battery plants that have been landed in Canada, most in Ontario, some

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in Quebec, you know, that's all predicated on a clean grid.

250
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And if you look at these companies that have come into Ontario, and

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rescue the automotive manufacturing industry, you know, the

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first thing they say is they say you've got affordable, reliable, cheap,

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clean power. And, you know, the Ford administration has realized

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Yeah. So it's almost like it's not that necessarily they want to change. It's almost like

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they're forced the chain to bring in more investment, to bring in more opportunity,

256
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especially Ontario is known for its automotive sector and it was

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dying at one point. It wasn't very good at

258
00:15:43,689 --> 00:15:46,812
one point and now it started to, it looks like it's reinvigorated with

259
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all these plants that we're going to be putting in for, or changing over to the

260
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electric vehicles. So with Volkswagen and other places, so other companies.

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So that's wonderful. We're going to go

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on to the next question. I'm

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sure you've been asked this question a number of times. You thought about it and talked about it a

264
00:16:03,603 --> 00:16:10,944
number of times. It seems that the federal level, one

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00:16:11,024 --> 00:16:14,185
party is talking about renewable energies and we need to do more

266
00:16:14,225 --> 00:16:17,545
investment and another party is not talking about that. It's talking

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00:16:17,565 --> 00:16:22,306
about the opposite of that. It costs too much. They're still on the cost. Because

268
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this question is all about the cost, The

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cost that happened so

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long ago, like even over a decade ago and the problems that

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we had there, why is that being brought back up knowing that

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00:16:36,107 --> 00:16:39,368
the cost has been reduced and that there's more opportunity? It's almost

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like we should be switching over and we should be making those investments

274
00:16:45,757 --> 00:16:49,379
Yeah. And if you look at, for example, the federal conservatives and

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the federal liberals, and to a lesser extent, the NDP, but

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you know, the federal conservatives, you know, have made part of their election platform,

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clean energy. They do want to build a grid. They want to build the

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grid. They want more nuclear. You know, they don't talk about renewables as

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much or at all, but you know, unsaid is that's

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part of the equation. So I think,

281
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you know, anybody that wants to govern federally in Canada, You

282
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know, it's going to realize fairly quickly that, you know,

283
00:17:18,979 --> 00:17:22,682
our grid is 83, 84% non-emitting, and that is a massive competitive

284
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advantage. The other thing too, is you get briefed up as a leader of

285
00:17:25,844 --> 00:17:29,426
any party, you realize that 8% of our electricity generation

286
00:17:29,466 --> 00:17:32,909
goes to the US. And, you know, the opportunity there for arbitrage and

287
00:17:32,929 --> 00:17:36,334
profit is fairly substantial. So, you know,

288
00:17:36,634 --> 00:17:39,937
it is kind of known. Now, what the difference being is

289
00:17:39,957 --> 00:17:43,100
that each political party has a different way of getting there. You

290
00:17:43,140 --> 00:17:46,443
know, the federal government has its clean electricity regulations, you

291
00:17:46,463 --> 00:17:49,886
know, which stipulate that there's a carbon intensity for every unit

292
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of electricity produced. You know, obviously, some provinces object

293
00:17:53,770 --> 00:17:57,453
to that and have been objecting to that. The final rules are in place. you

294
00:17:57,473 --> 00:18:01,054
know, they've been adjusted a little bit to make sure Alberta, Ontario, Saskatchewan

295
00:18:01,094 --> 00:18:04,814
and some of the other provinces can actually meet the 2035 target in

296
00:18:04,854 --> 00:18:07,995
a way that has minimal effect on the rate pair. But if you

297
00:18:08,015 --> 00:18:11,416
look at the kind of more, you know, center right parties, they're

298
00:18:11,436 --> 00:18:14,716
kind of flipping it around a little bit going, okay, you know, we'll use tax

299
00:18:14,776 --> 00:18:18,397
incentives rather than regulation to get to the same place. So, you

300
00:18:18,437 --> 00:18:22,118
know, ultimately, I think all parties kinda know

301
00:18:22,158 --> 00:18:25,761
they need to get to a massively expanded clean

302
00:18:25,821 --> 00:18:29,005
grid because it's in our competitive interests. And

303
00:18:29,406 --> 00:18:33,131
also too, is if you look at what's happening down south around potential tariffs and

304
00:18:33,812 --> 00:18:37,317
you know, having more electricity up here that's

305
00:18:37,377 --> 00:18:40,800
clean allows us to basically manufacture products

306
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,082
that we can now sell into Europe, or we can sell into Asia, you

307
00:18:44,122 --> 00:18:47,524
know, where there is potentially a price premium on things that

308
00:18:47,564 --> 00:18:50,826
are clean. So a huge opportunity there. So,

309
00:18:51,126 --> 00:18:54,688
you know, I just, I don't see the distance that a lot of people see

310
00:18:54,728 --> 00:18:57,830
between various political parties, mainly because we're in the weeds, and we're

311
00:19:00,131 --> 00:19:03,294
well i mean it's it is it's a relief to know because like it

312
00:19:03,354 --> 00:19:06,917
affects the way people vote you know i mean obviously

313
00:19:06,977 --> 00:19:10,159
this this election coming up for canada i think is a little a little bit

314
00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:13,562
different where it seems like maybe one you

315
00:19:13,582 --> 00:19:16,885
know the the liberals have overstayed their welcome or or what have

316
00:19:16,925 --> 00:19:20,747
you and it seems like The genuine sort of prognosis

317
00:19:20,807 --> 00:19:23,988
is that the conservatives are going to get in, but it's scary for someone like

318
00:19:24,028 --> 00:19:27,489
myself who doesn't hear the conservative, the federal conservative party

319
00:19:27,569 --> 00:19:31,030
talk about climate change or how they're going to address climate change other

320
00:19:31,050 --> 00:19:34,731
than carbon capture, which we know that technology is not completely

321
00:19:34,771 --> 00:19:38,253
there at this point. It's just really it's

322
00:19:38,313 --> 00:19:41,496
nice to know that they actually have it in their platform. Maybe you have to do a little bit more

323
00:19:41,556 --> 00:19:44,738
research on their platform and where that's available. But it is

324
00:19:44,798 --> 00:19:48,121
nice to know that that a lot of the political parties are moving towards

325
00:19:48,141 --> 00:19:51,383
that, because I think it's it's we're getting into dangerous territory here.

326
00:19:51,504 --> 00:19:54,826
You know, with the fires down in L.A. and, you know, we have we had fires

327
00:19:54,846 --> 00:19:58,569
a couple of like last year, not two years ago, I guess, that

328
00:19:58,589 --> 00:20:01,832
were pretty extravagant. And even now, it continues on now

329
00:20:02,432 --> 00:20:05,775
in certain parts of BC and so forth. So I think it's a little

330
00:20:05,795 --> 00:20:09,098
dangerous, but that's good to know. Let's go on to the second

331
00:20:09,158 --> 00:20:12,801
argument, which was, I believe it was the energy, is

332
00:20:17,865 --> 00:20:21,027
Which we hear a lot, yes. Yes, yes. So talk about

333
00:20:21,067 --> 00:20:24,550
that. What were they saying? And then what's your

334
00:20:26,501 --> 00:20:29,723
This has been a kind of refrain that's been said around

335
00:20:29,743 --> 00:20:33,446
the world many, many times is that, you know, particular EV

336
00:20:33,506 --> 00:20:36,708
sales mandates will create a situation that will

337
00:20:36,808 --> 00:20:40,470
overwhelm the electricity grid. Now, either at the macro level,

338
00:20:40,530 --> 00:20:43,652
you know, in a provincial or state or national scale, you know, or

339
00:20:43,692 --> 00:20:46,834
right down to your local level that, you know, they'll melt the transformers if

340
00:20:47,234 --> 00:20:50,976
everybody in your block gets an EV and charges at the same time. So,

341
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I mean, let's just start with EVs, then we'll work is

342
00:21:00,540 --> 00:21:03,963
that EVs have a very small impact over

343
00:21:04,023 --> 00:21:07,225
on the grid. So if you look at, and again, I'll just take

344
00:21:08,506 --> 00:21:12,529
Canada for an example, looking at two or 3% more electricity required

345
00:21:12,569 --> 00:21:15,931
in the coming years, and that's to actually support the EV sales

346
00:21:15,991 --> 00:21:19,393
mandates that are in place kind of federally and provincially, which

347
00:21:19,474 --> 00:21:22,796
are very ambitious. VC's EV sales target is 90% by 2030 and 100% by 2035. The federal target is

348
00:21:22,936 --> 00:21:29,310
not far behind that. Yet,

349
00:21:29,710 --> 00:21:33,372
you know, EVs are not massive consumers of the grid. And

350
00:21:33,452 --> 00:21:36,694
also too, what people tend to forget, you

351
00:21:36,714 --> 00:21:40,416
can go out today and you can buy an F-150 Lightning Extended Range,

352
00:21:40,436 --> 00:21:43,757
you can buy a Cybertruck, you can buy a Chevy

353
00:21:43,797 --> 00:21:47,179
Silverado kind of RST launch edition. All

354
00:21:47,219 --> 00:21:50,400
of these have vehicle-to-home charging capabilities. So your

355
00:21:50,420 --> 00:21:54,379
vehicle can store energy. But

356
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,201
that also means it's got vehicle-to-grid technologies. And there

357
00:21:58,261 --> 00:22:01,863
are pilots happening right now in the States where utilities are

358
00:22:01,923 --> 00:22:05,384
signing up F-150 Lightning owners to actually sell

359
00:22:05,404 --> 00:22:08,766
power back to the grid in time and needs. So here you are,

360
00:22:08,786 --> 00:22:12,047
and we're not very far away from the time where you will have

361
00:22:12,087 --> 00:22:15,589
an EV in your driveway. It'll be plugged into your house, but

362
00:22:15,809 --> 00:22:18,951
it's also gonna be plugged into the grid. And your utility, when you give them

363
00:22:18,971 --> 00:22:22,213
permission, can go and fish those electrons out

364
00:22:22,253 --> 00:22:25,574
of your car, bring them back to the grid, push them back in. So your

365
00:22:25,654 --> 00:22:28,876
actually car starts to not just be an appliance that sits there when

366
00:22:28,896 --> 00:22:32,118
you're not driving it, it actually starts, it's a money maker. You know,

367
00:22:32,238 --> 00:22:35,699
that. And also too, it contributes to grid capacity and

368
00:22:35,739 --> 00:22:39,101
resilience. So, you know, that's just kind of one example of

369
00:22:39,141 --> 00:22:42,724
all this. And the other one too, You know, you live in Ontario, right? So

370
00:22:42,744 --> 00:22:46,207
you may be aware of it. They have this overnight EV charging

371
00:22:46,267 --> 00:22:49,631
rate just over two cents. So when you actually do the math,

372
00:22:50,011 --> 00:22:53,174
you can take a Hyundai IONIQ 5 EV, you know, the

373
00:22:53,234 --> 00:22:56,898
one you see everywhere, kind of looks like an 80s kind of a Hyundai. You know,

374
00:22:57,158 --> 00:23:02,231
that will charge from zero to 100% for $2.35 right now. And

375
00:23:02,251 --> 00:23:05,675
compare that to a RAV4 with a 55 liter fuel

376
00:23:05,695 --> 00:23:08,938
tank. I think you guys pay around $1.70 or whatever for

377
00:23:12,583 --> 00:23:16,347
OK. And so anyways, you're looking at $90 plus.

378
00:23:16,687 --> 00:23:20,731
So the EVs can not only they

379
00:23:20,751 --> 00:23:23,933
can balance the grid, they can save homeowners money, both

380
00:23:23,993 --> 00:23:27,635
in driving them and in the future in terms of selling power back to the grid. There

381
00:23:27,655 --> 00:23:31,096
are actually these massive mechanisms that will stabilize the grid over

382
00:23:31,156 --> 00:23:34,778
time as adoption continues. Heat

383
00:23:34,818 --> 00:23:38,079
pumps are another really interesting one that people go, oh, when you switch out a natural

384
00:23:38,099 --> 00:23:41,421
gas furnace, you switch to a heat pump. A couple of things are happening

385
00:23:41,441 --> 00:23:44,663
there. One is, a heat pump is three to

386
00:23:44,703 --> 00:23:48,866
five times more efficient than a gas furnace. Why

387
00:23:48,946 --> 00:23:52,587
is that? One joule of energy gives you many

388
00:23:52,627 --> 00:23:55,708
more joules of heat or cooling, just how a heat pump works in

389
00:23:55,728 --> 00:23:59,589
terms of physics. Also too, gas

390
00:23:59,629 --> 00:24:02,810
appliances are not 100 percent efficient. That's one

391
00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:05,971
way that overall you save energy. The

392
00:24:06,011 --> 00:24:10,293
other interesting thing is parts of Canada, particularly in the West and BC, 40 percent

393
00:24:10,313 --> 00:24:13,614
of developing dwellings in BC are heated through

394
00:24:13,654 --> 00:24:17,075
baseboards and they're tremendously inefficient. If you actually

395
00:24:17,115 --> 00:24:20,418
switch out a dwelling that's currently heated with

396
00:24:20,458 --> 00:24:24,242
a baseboard to a heat pump, you get massive amounts of savings. We've

397
00:24:24,282 --> 00:24:27,445
actually kind of figured it out that it's about $500 a

398
00:24:27,505 --> 00:24:30,789
year on your electricity bill you would save on

399
00:24:30,829 --> 00:24:34,193
your average dwelling. Just move into a heat pump from

400
00:24:34,253 --> 00:24:37,616
electric baseboard heating. So it's not a climate thing. It's just a

401
00:24:37,797 --> 00:24:41,316
household affordability thing. So, and

402
00:24:41,416 --> 00:24:44,818
then the other kind of piece of these arguments are that, you

403
00:24:44,838 --> 00:24:48,059
know, natural gas bans and new construction, you know,

404
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,500
will overwhelm the grid. And again, you know, very similar that

405
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,581
because heat pumps are so efficient, you

406
00:24:55,601 --> 00:24:58,902
know, and because you can actually now have appliances like

407
00:24:58,942 --> 00:25:02,203
smart thermostats where the grid can control and you can actually use your house

408
00:25:02,263 --> 00:25:05,464
as a virtual power plant, you know, it's not the issue that

409
00:25:07,245 --> 00:25:10,509
Right. Right. I think it's really interesting, too, because we've always talked about how,

410
00:25:11,069 --> 00:25:14,353
as a species, we have to innovate to get out of this climate change. Not

411
00:25:14,413 --> 00:25:17,556
only do we have to reduce our emissions, but we have to innovate. And

412
00:25:17,576 --> 00:25:20,900
it seems like we're doing that. And obviously, it takes time. And

413
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,364
that evolution of that technology will always take time. And it'll

414
00:25:24,384 --> 00:25:27,788
be less cost effective at the beginning. And as we move through

415
00:25:28,268 --> 00:25:31,930
the progress. And as more and more people are using the technology, we

416
00:25:31,970 --> 00:25:35,212
get more efficient and more efficient, which seems to be with heat pumps, it seems

417
00:25:35,252 --> 00:25:38,835
to be with EVs. It just seems like it's always

418
00:25:38,995 --> 00:25:42,137
there. It's going to continue to grow, it's going to continue to get

419
00:25:42,237 --> 00:25:45,679
better. But it seems like a lot of people are just stuck

420
00:25:45,719 --> 00:25:48,981
in the past, you know, and they don't want to embrace the

421
00:25:49,081 --> 00:25:52,224
new information. or get the new information. And I

422
00:25:52,264 --> 00:25:55,706
know it changes quickly, just like the tech industry does,

423
00:25:55,787 --> 00:25:59,049
and so it's hard to keep up. But how come, you know, from

424
00:25:59,089 --> 00:26:02,372
a mainstream media point of view, why aren't

425
00:26:02,412 --> 00:26:05,695
we hearing about these success stories more often than

426
00:26:08,328 --> 00:26:11,670
You know, because, you know, the way media works is

427
00:26:11,710 --> 00:26:15,251
you have to have narrative tension. Right. You know, when someone

428
00:26:15,351 --> 00:26:18,573
on a block buys a electric pickup and all

429
00:26:21,815 --> 00:26:25,356
The person says, Oh, it's 10 bucks. And they go, what? And then they realize

430
00:26:25,396 --> 00:26:28,958
that, uh, you know, uh, F one 50 lightning is this exact

431
00:26:28,998 --> 00:26:32,120
same cost as the internal combustion version. So what you do is

432
00:26:32,140 --> 00:26:35,461
you get the network effects starting to happen there. So, you know, that's the stuff

433
00:26:35,501 --> 00:26:38,963
that doesn't get reported on. I think what you're gonna see

434
00:26:39,003 --> 00:26:42,105
the media pick up on in the next couple of years, you know,

435
00:26:42,125 --> 00:26:45,406
worldwide, is these, you know, communities that

436
00:26:45,466 --> 00:26:48,948
are cut off because of drought, wildfires, flooding,

437
00:26:48,968 --> 00:26:52,410
and those communities, the option for them now is

438
00:26:52,450 --> 00:26:56,032
to actually generate and store their own power. So,

439
00:26:56,172 --> 00:26:59,834
you know, there's a whole wave of new adopters coming,

440
00:27:00,054 --> 00:27:03,296
you know, because of these climate incidents that

441
00:27:03,336 --> 00:27:06,520
are happening. They're going to have rooftop solar and batteries and use

442
00:27:06,540 --> 00:27:09,764
their cars to store information, and they're going to work together as a community, a

443
00:27:09,804 --> 00:27:13,530
power to community. Now, we call these distributed energy

444
00:27:13,570 --> 00:27:17,335
resources in the tech terms, but reality, what

445
00:27:17,375 --> 00:27:28,995
it is, it's community, resilience, self-sufficiency, sovereignty. Yeah,

446
00:27:29,155 --> 00:27:32,357
so you don't hear too much about the media, but what's

447
00:27:32,397 --> 00:27:35,818
interesting right now is if you look in the US,

448
00:27:36,318 --> 00:27:39,700
it's really interesting is that EV sales are

449
00:27:39,740 --> 00:27:42,981
at their highest level ever. Part of that is

450
00:27:43,061 --> 00:27:47,303
because the incoming Trump administration may get rid of the $7,500 tax

451
00:27:47,363 --> 00:27:50,444
credit. But also too, I think people in the

452
00:27:50,564 --> 00:27:53,766
US are realizing, I was just in California two and a half weeks ago,

453
00:27:55,387 --> 00:27:59,793
Gas down there is $4.50 US a gallon. It's

454
00:28:01,115 --> 00:28:04,499
What's that equivalent for? Is that over $2 a liter? Yeah, it would be

455
00:28:04,539 --> 00:28:07,803
over $2. Wow, that is expensive. Man, that's

456
00:28:07,843 --> 00:28:11,184
insane. That's insane. I could not, I just, one of the reasons why I went, I

457
00:28:11,344 --> 00:28:14,786
have an EV. It's one of the reasons why I went to EV because we were approaching $2 here

458
00:28:14,806 --> 00:28:17,989
in Ontario at one point a couple of years ago in 2022. And

459
00:28:18,009 --> 00:28:21,211
I was just like, I can't do this anymore. My car's coming. It's at

460
00:28:21,251 --> 00:28:24,494
that point where if I turn it in, I could, I can do well, but I needed

461
00:28:24,534 --> 00:28:27,716
premium gas and that was going to get more and more expensive. And I just like,

462
00:28:28,176 --> 00:28:31,539
no, this is cheaper. And it's, and it's true. Now, one thing I'd love

463
00:28:31,579 --> 00:28:34,701
to get your, your, uh, your answer on when i

464
00:28:34,801 --> 00:28:38,003
went to so if you buy an ev in canada or you're looking to get an

465
00:28:38,063 --> 00:28:41,185
ev in ontario anyway you can go to it's like um

466
00:28:41,846 --> 00:28:45,008
uh it's like an ev place oh what's the name of it i forget the

467
00:28:45,048 --> 00:28:48,230
name of it but it's i think it's ev easy or something like that but

468
00:28:48,250 --> 00:28:51,892
you can go in they give you all the information all the different types of evs the

469
00:28:51,912 --> 00:28:55,016
different types of chargers, you know, what to look for in terms of price of

470
00:28:55,416 --> 00:28:59,601
how you're charging it. And the woman there said that at night, they talked

471
00:28:59,641 --> 00:29:03,064
about, you know, the breaking the grid if everybody charged at night at the same time,

472
00:29:03,144 --> 00:29:06,588
if everybody, if all of Ontarians had, you know, an

473
00:29:06,628 --> 00:29:09,872
electric vehicle and said because at night they

474
00:29:09,912 --> 00:29:13,175
change over to nuclear power, it's not only cheaper, but you'll

475
00:29:13,235 --> 00:29:16,396
never really run out of out of energy. Is that is that a

476
00:29:18,757 --> 00:29:22,259
Yeah. So there's a reason that, you know, the

477
00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:25,801
Ontario utilities are, you know, wanting you to charge it

478
00:29:25,941 --> 00:29:29,343
just over two cents a kilowatt hour, which is almost free power

479
00:29:29,403 --> 00:29:33,364
overnight. Yeah, it's for that very reason is they're trying to load balance across

480
00:29:33,464 --> 00:29:36,806
the daily cycle. So, you know, more

481
00:29:36,866 --> 00:29:40,167
AV owners kind of charging at night is actually a very good

482
00:29:40,207 --> 00:29:43,768
thing for them. So yeah, yeah. So it is, you

483
00:29:43,788 --> 00:29:47,091
know, and it's real, you know, BC, where I

484
00:29:47,151 --> 00:29:50,312
live, has a kind of overnight rate that's 5 cents a

485
00:29:50,352 --> 00:29:53,955
kilowatt hour, kind of cheaper than the normal rate. Again, even

486
00:29:54,015 --> 00:29:57,637
though we don't have nuclear, we have large hydro reservoirs. But again, these

487
00:29:57,657 --> 00:30:01,419
are utilities that are trying to spread a load across the 24-hour period. And

488
00:30:03,908 --> 00:30:07,131
Yeah, I just scheduled through the app. It's great. You

489
00:30:07,151 --> 00:30:10,834
don't even have to worry. You just keep the plug in and then at 9.30 it turns

490
00:30:10,974 --> 00:30:14,117
on and it takes two hours to charge up and you're all ready to

491
00:30:14,137 --> 00:30:17,820
go. It's great and I've saved so much money. So that's

492
00:30:17,860 --> 00:30:21,483
wonderful. So we know it's not gonna break the grid. That's clear.

493
00:30:22,024 --> 00:30:25,648
The last point I think was, what

494
00:30:25,668 --> 00:30:29,051
was the last point here? It was German electricity rates between,

495
00:30:33,135 --> 00:30:36,899
Imports and exports of electricity. And there

496
00:30:36,939 --> 00:30:40,162
have been a number of commentators kind of looking at various provinces and

497
00:30:40,182 --> 00:30:44,192
going, what happens in

498
00:30:44,272 --> 00:30:48,054
B.C., what's happened in B.C. with droughts and reservoir levels.

499
00:30:49,175 --> 00:30:52,677
I think, you know, if you look at the numbers over the last year, year and

500
00:30:52,697 --> 00:30:56,098
a half, B.C. has imported about 25% of

501
00:30:56,139 --> 00:30:59,440
its power. And so the inevitable conclusion from that is

502
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,222
that we have some sort of structural electricity deficit. And

503
00:31:03,282 --> 00:31:07,244
we can't self-generate enough power. And we're now depending on

504
00:31:07,444 --> 00:31:11,125
California and Alberta and a bunch of other states

505
00:31:11,165 --> 00:31:14,346
to bail us out. And when you actually look at, you

506
00:31:14,366 --> 00:31:18,408
know, again, we come back to the arbitrage, right? So, you know,

507
00:31:18,528 --> 00:31:27,248
yes, we imported over the last year, 16% more power than we exported. of

508
00:31:27,288 --> 00:31:31,211
that power. So, you know, for a lot of Canada that has hydro reservoirs, you

509
00:31:31,231 --> 00:31:34,834
know, we can hold back water until there's a need and demand requires and,

510
00:31:35,034 --> 00:31:38,437
you know, you actually wait till the price spikes and then you open

511
00:31:38,457 --> 00:31:41,839
the reservoir and you sell it to the US. So, if you look at just

512
00:31:41,879 --> 00:31:48,946
BC alone, you know, since 2019, the province has made $1.5 billion in

513
00:31:49,006 --> 00:31:52,549
profit on imports and exports. So what

514
00:31:52,589 --> 00:31:55,831
we have been doing is basically being buying cheap power in

515
00:31:55,851 --> 00:31:58,973
California. And what's super interesting right now is with the

516
00:31:59,013 --> 00:32:02,895
amount of solar that's been set up in the US Southwest, they're

517
00:32:02,915 --> 00:32:06,138
actually getting to periods where power prices are approaching zero or

518
00:32:06,218 --> 00:32:09,580
even negative. And when that happens, the smart thing

519
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,782
is utility somewhere else is to actually buy that power so you don't

520
00:32:12,822 --> 00:32:16,340
have to do this yourself. So what's been happening is You

521
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,782
know, utilities in BC are buying power at

522
00:32:19,942 --> 00:32:23,544
very low rates or sometimes even zero or negative rates. And

523
00:32:23,664 --> 00:32:26,865
that allows us to kind of hold the water back in our reservoirs until such

524
00:32:26,925 --> 00:32:30,447
time as power is needed. And the price goes up. And

525
00:32:30,467 --> 00:32:33,629
that's allowed us to do a couple of things. You know, one is it's

526
00:32:33,669 --> 00:32:37,034
allowed utilities like BC Hydro to kind

527
00:32:37,054 --> 00:32:40,555
of weather the drought that's been happening here for the last

528
00:32:40,615 --> 00:32:43,957
two years or so. I think more importantly, though, it allows

529
00:32:44,037 --> 00:32:47,438
us to respond to emergencies. So if you remember this time

530
00:32:47,538 --> 00:32:50,860
last year, you know, Alberta went into this massive deep

531
00:32:50,900 --> 00:32:54,261
freeze. They sent out grid alerts on their phones. People were asked to

532
00:32:54,281 --> 00:32:57,686
just, you know, shut down your appliances, stop using electricity. So

533
00:32:58,086 --> 00:33:02,067
in that instance, there was plenty of water held behind dams

534
00:33:02,107 --> 00:33:05,468
in BC and BC was able to send an absolute ton

535
00:33:05,488 --> 00:33:08,688
of power to Alberta to kind of get over that hump. So,

536
00:33:08,788 --> 00:33:12,589
you know, these are the types of kind of trading situations that

537
00:33:12,629 --> 00:33:16,010
we're seeing more and more of. So, you know, and that's kind of the message we're

538
00:33:16,030 --> 00:33:19,550
trying to get out is that, you know, power imports are not a bad thing because

539
00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:22,771
it allows us to actually prepare for when we need the power and

540
00:33:24,252 --> 00:33:27,395
Right. So is the big commodity in the future going to be

541
00:33:27,435 --> 00:33:30,598
the imports and exports of power? Like, is

542
00:33:30,618 --> 00:33:33,880
that going to be one that, you know, is it going to like right now we

543
00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:37,024
get incentivized to, you know, charge our EVs at

544
00:33:37,084 --> 00:33:40,226
night and so forth. The big worry that I hear a lot

545
00:33:40,266 --> 00:33:43,488
of people say around me is like, oh, we'll wait till everybody's on

546
00:33:43,508 --> 00:33:46,810
the grid and everybody needs electricity. They're just going to increase that.

547
00:33:47,270 --> 00:33:50,433
And they're just going to increase it to a point where you just, you know, it's going to

548
00:33:50,473 --> 00:33:54,015
be just as expensive as gas. Do you see that happening

549
00:33:54,055 --> 00:33:57,237
or from the research that your staff has done and your organization has

550
00:33:59,804 --> 00:34:03,047
Not if you plan correctly. So, and you

551
00:34:03,087 --> 00:34:06,952
know what I mean by that is the more interties

552
00:34:06,992 --> 00:34:10,696
you can build between grids, the more stability and reliability

553
00:34:10,737 --> 00:34:14,461
you have. So if you have a particular grid somewhere in North America that

554
00:34:14,481 --> 00:34:17,663
for whatever reasons is struggling. you know, middle of winter, no

555
00:34:18,124 --> 00:34:21,328
sun, no wind, power can come in from elsewhere. So

556
00:34:21,768 --> 00:34:25,052
that's the kind of grid that we need to be building. And the more you

557
00:34:25,072 --> 00:34:28,656
build that kind of across a continent, whether it's North America, Europe

558
00:34:28,696 --> 00:34:32,120
or elsewhere, you know, the more stability you have, the more reliability you

559
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,244
have, and less likelihood you are going to get that there's going to be

560
00:34:35,264 --> 00:34:39,066
a price spike. You know, that's one of our large kind of recommendations to

561
00:34:39,086 --> 00:34:42,547
the federal government is, you know, one of the things that they can do

562
00:34:42,587 --> 00:34:46,169
in the electricity space, because most of it's governed by provincial jurisdiction, you

563
00:34:46,189 --> 00:34:49,770
know, is help provinces connect their grids to each other and help

564
00:34:49,830 --> 00:34:53,251
provinces connect grids into the US. So, you know, that's

565
00:34:53,271 --> 00:34:56,472
kind of part of it. The other one too, and we talked a little bit about this, is

566
00:34:56,532 --> 00:35:00,134
that, you know, homeowners and communities will have more agency

567
00:35:00,174 --> 00:35:03,364
in the future. where they're going to generate and store their own power when they need

568
00:35:03,424 --> 00:35:06,625
it. And then the third part you already talked about, right, is kind

569
00:35:06,645 --> 00:35:10,066
of the innovation aspect of this. So, you know, as we have this

570
00:35:10,146 --> 00:35:13,868
kind of large glut of solar coming into

571
00:35:13,888 --> 00:35:17,069
the U.S. Southwest, you know, people are doing innovative things with that. They're

572
00:35:17,089 --> 00:35:20,390
turning it into green hydrogen and then holding that until such

573
00:35:20,450 --> 00:35:24,112
time as the price goes up. And then you can run the hydrogen through an electrolyzer

574
00:35:24,172 --> 00:35:27,294
again and turn it back into power. There's a whole bunch of

575
00:35:27,474 --> 00:35:30,917
clever innovative ways that we're starting to look at power

576
00:35:31,457 --> 00:35:35,500
and how we can monetize it and use it. Again,

577
00:35:36,121 --> 00:35:39,423
if you do it wrong, prices go up. But if you do it right,

578
00:35:39,503 --> 00:35:43,667
you can actually have a very affordable grid that's incredibly reliable, keep

579
00:35:43,687 --> 00:35:48,370
prices low. It helps, again, jurisdictions decarbonize,

580
00:35:48,430 --> 00:35:52,233
meet climate targets. What people forget too is that

581
00:35:52,273 --> 00:35:55,556
when you are fossil fuel powered in your

582
00:35:55,596 --> 00:35:58,918
home, You know, you are at the whim of geopolitical events. You

583
00:35:58,958 --> 00:36:02,160
know, the oil price isn't set locally. It's not set by your profits, not

584
00:36:02,180 --> 00:36:05,361
set by your utility. The gas price is exactly the same, you

585
00:36:05,401 --> 00:36:08,643
know, and you can find yourself with $2 gas fairly quickly. There's

586
00:36:08,663 --> 00:36:11,984
nothing really you could do about it, you know, but an electricity price, like,

587
00:36:12,124 --> 00:36:15,346
you know, if you're living in Ontario and Ontario has made the right moves and

588
00:36:15,386 --> 00:36:18,507
you've made the right moves as a homeowner, you know, you can

589
00:36:23,499 --> 00:36:26,841
That's really interesting. And so there's, it seems like a lot more flexibility in

590
00:36:26,881 --> 00:36:30,163
going more towards renewables. So that's, that's,

591
00:36:30,283 --> 00:36:33,685
that's fantastic. I do have one last question. I couldn't let you go without

592
00:36:33,885 --> 00:36:37,887
asking this question. Is, you

593
00:36:37,907 --> 00:36:41,430
know, we, we're looking at a new election. The carbon tax seems

594
00:36:41,470 --> 00:36:45,132
to be a really big question here. People hate it. People,

595
00:36:45,352 --> 00:36:48,674
absolutely. The citizens who have to pay it, hate it. Even though,

596
00:36:48,694 --> 00:36:52,576
you know, there's the proven fact that, you know, you get money back, even

597
00:36:52,656 --> 00:36:56,438
though there's proven fact that it hasn't increased

598
00:36:56,518 --> 00:37:00,219
inflation or it's been like a 0.00012% increase

599
00:37:00,259 --> 00:37:03,481
in inflation. Well, I guess it's a two part

600
00:37:03,521 --> 00:37:07,082
question. One, has the carbon tax work since it's been implemented?

601
00:37:07,802 --> 00:37:11,324
And how can we tell? And then also, is this going

602
00:37:11,344 --> 00:37:14,565
to be is this going to be scrapped? And how is it going to affect sort of our

603
00:37:14,645 --> 00:37:21,664
climate, our climate? I guess our climate? I

604
00:37:25,802 --> 00:37:28,984
Yeah. So I'll tackle those kind of, uh, in the order that you

605
00:37:29,044 --> 00:37:32,607
asked. So, so, so carbon, carbon pricing

606
00:37:32,867 --> 00:37:36,489
does work. Um, you know, it is worldwide seen

607
00:37:36,549 --> 00:37:40,032
as the most economically efficient way to reduce emissions and

608
00:37:40,352 --> 00:37:43,514
you know, how it works. And this is where people get a little bit confused is

609
00:37:43,534 --> 00:37:46,636
the carbon tax. At the consumer level. So this is the

610
00:37:46,676 --> 00:37:49,878
household level, like when you and I pay, when we go fill up our car, you know,

611
00:37:51,919 --> 00:37:55,022
Um, it really does two things and two things only it

612
00:37:55,122 --> 00:37:58,304
changes. what you drive and how you drive and it

613
00:37:58,364 --> 00:38:01,686
changes how you heat your home. Like those are the two main things

614
00:38:01,706 --> 00:38:04,908
that the carbon tax does. So just kind of keep in mind on that because we're going to come back to

615
00:38:04,948 --> 00:38:08,130
it. And if you look at, you know, places and jurisdictions that

616
00:38:08,150 --> 00:38:11,533
have had a carbon tax in place for a long time, British

617
00:38:11,573 --> 00:38:14,895
Columbia has had a carbon tax since 2009. And if

618
00:38:14,915 --> 00:38:18,017
you look at emissions intensity per capita per unit of

619
00:38:18,077 --> 00:38:21,339
GDP, the line goes down. So carbon taxes are

620
00:38:21,379 --> 00:38:24,944
a big part of that and they actually have driven change. both

621
00:38:25,004 --> 00:38:28,288
in the industrial level and the behavioral level. Now, there's

622
00:38:28,408 --> 00:38:31,652
two separate carbon taxes in Canada. And the one that people are

623
00:38:31,672 --> 00:38:34,856
most upset about and they hear about in the Axodax campaigns, that

624
00:38:34,916 --> 00:38:38,079
is the consumer carbon price. It's called the fuel charge under

625
00:38:38,099 --> 00:38:41,179
the federal system. So that is the X cents a

626
00:38:41,279 --> 00:38:44,642
liter that you pay and what you pay on your gas bill when

627
00:38:44,682 --> 00:38:47,904
you kind of go to pay that every month. There's also an

628
00:38:47,964 --> 00:38:51,327
industrial carbon pricing system and it's called the output based

629
00:38:51,427 --> 00:38:54,869
pricing system. Some provinces have their own system. Alberta

630
00:38:54,909 --> 00:38:58,052
has one, BC has one. So when you

631
00:38:58,072 --> 00:39:01,710
look at kind of overall on the consumer system. You

632
00:39:01,730 --> 00:39:05,452
know, what you're seeing these days is the cost between an internal combustion

633
00:39:05,532 --> 00:39:08,854
car and an EV is, you know, they're

634
00:39:08,894 --> 00:39:11,956
coming closer together. And if you actually look at kind of

635
00:39:11,976 --> 00:39:15,178
the total ownership costs, the EV wins every time. And,

636
00:39:15,238 --> 00:39:18,580
you know, if you keep your car for, you know, eight years and you drive it

637
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,182
20,000 kilometers a year, you're going to save a ton of money with the EV. The

638
00:39:22,222 --> 00:39:25,424
capital cost up front is a little bit higher, but overall the

639
00:39:25,464 --> 00:39:28,801
savings. So, you know, what the carbon tax its

640
00:39:28,861 --> 00:39:32,164
intent is to actually help you make that choice to

641
00:39:32,224 --> 00:39:35,507
buy the EV over the gas car. And in that respect, it

642
00:39:35,627 --> 00:39:39,010
has kind of worked. We're also looking at heat pumps versus

643
00:39:39,070 --> 00:39:42,353
natural gas furnaces. And again, if you look at most jurisdictions across

644
00:39:42,393 --> 00:39:46,116
Canada, you know, the math is starting to come out in the heat pump favor, especially

645
00:39:46,136 --> 00:39:49,158
when you factor in the fact that you get air conditioning for free out of a

646
00:39:49,218 --> 00:39:52,341
heat pump. So, you know, so, you

647
00:39:52,361 --> 00:39:55,524
know, from our perspective is, you know, carbon tax has done a

648
00:39:55,884 --> 00:39:59,825
lot of its heavy lifting. on the consumer side already. And

649
00:40:00,705 --> 00:40:04,366
it would be a shame if it went away because it still

650
00:40:04,406 --> 00:40:08,227
has work to do. But it's not the end of the world. People

651
00:40:08,247 --> 00:40:11,548
are still going to buy EVs. People are still going to buy heat pumps. The math still works

652
00:40:11,608 --> 00:40:14,869
out on EVs. The math works out a little bit less on heat pumps,

653
00:40:14,929 --> 00:40:18,309
but that could change shortly. So the way we look at carbon

654
00:40:18,329 --> 00:40:21,510
pricing at the consumer level is it has done a lot

655
00:40:21,550 --> 00:40:24,771
of heavy lifting and it's done its job. If it goes away, there

656
00:40:24,811 --> 00:40:28,352
are other ways to make up that delta to help you meet your climate targets.

657
00:40:29,537 --> 00:40:32,840
On the industrial carbon pricing system, those are very,

658
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,322
very robust. And what you're seeing now is you're

659
00:40:36,342 --> 00:40:40,505
seeing a lot of industries coming to the federal conservatives,

660
00:40:40,645 --> 00:40:44,468
you know, who may form the next government, it's looking lightly, kind

661
00:40:44,488 --> 00:40:48,418
of going, you know, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Alberta intends,

662
00:40:48,678 --> 00:40:51,961
whatever happens at the federal level after the next election, to keep its

663
00:40:53,942 --> 00:40:57,625
will most likely do otherwise. Quebec's got cap and trade. So

664
00:40:58,325 --> 00:41:01,868
on the industrial side, I think we're seeing a lot more likelihood of

665
00:41:03,706 --> 00:41:06,967
And we're seeing change within that too. Like we're seeing industrial change, like

666
00:41:10,508 --> 00:41:13,869
Well, and that's just it. And the other one too, the business community and industry, they

667
00:41:13,889 --> 00:41:17,171
want to know what the rules are, right? Because, you know, if they know

668
00:41:17,231 --> 00:41:20,392
that carbon pricing is going to stay in some shape or form for the next

669
00:41:20,692 --> 00:41:24,073
10 years, that helps them make their capital investments kind of right now.

670
00:41:24,793 --> 00:41:28,134
Right now, you know, we've got a lot of investment dollars in Canada sitting

671
00:41:31,675 --> 00:41:34,762
Yeah, true. That's interesting. It

672
00:41:34,802 --> 00:41:38,246
makes it interesting because I think that the one thing from a citizen

673
00:41:38,286 --> 00:41:41,469
point of view is we just don't see the results right off the bat. You know, we

674
00:41:41,489 --> 00:41:44,693
don't see it. Everybody's like, well, you know, always the

675
00:41:44,733 --> 00:41:48,117
question, the loaded question is like, well, how much has our emissions

676
00:41:48,177 --> 00:41:51,641
reduced because of it and all this kind of stuff. And we just don't see

677
00:41:51,681 --> 00:41:55,445
it because emissions are usually a year behind and when we measure and stuff. We

678
00:41:55,485 --> 00:41:59,186
just don't see it right off the bat, but it is a slow burn.

679
00:41:59,286 --> 00:42:02,646
No pun intended, but it is slow to change and everybody is

680
00:42:02,707 --> 00:42:06,207
going to change as we go forward, whether it's for a carbon

681
00:42:06,507 --> 00:42:09,648
tax or a pricing point or just ease of

682
00:42:09,928 --> 00:42:13,709
not having to go to the gas station anymore and just charging at home and

683
00:42:15,209 --> 00:42:18,510
And the other thing that under the consumer carbon tax, under

684
00:42:18,530 --> 00:42:22,310
the federal system, which is in place for a number of provinces, is

685
00:42:23,691 --> 00:42:27,611
80% of families are better off with the consumer carbon price. Basically,

686
00:42:27,671 --> 00:42:31,132
they get more back on their rebates than they're actually paying

687
00:42:31,532 --> 00:42:36,013
for the fuel that they burn. In

688
00:42:36,053 --> 00:42:39,755
that respect, the federal system is quite elegant in that most

689
00:42:39,815 --> 00:42:45,076
Canadians are better off. Provinces

690
00:42:45,116 --> 00:42:48,337
that have their own systems run them a little bit differently and

691
00:42:48,357 --> 00:42:51,637
they have different results in that calculus. But generally, you know,

692
00:42:51,677 --> 00:42:54,839
carbon pricing, it works and it

693
00:42:56,460 --> 00:42:59,803
Yeah. Well, it'll be interesting to see what happens after the election to see if it stays or

694
00:42:59,823 --> 00:43:04,166
not, depending on who gets in. But regardless

695
00:43:04,206 --> 00:43:07,349
of what happens, Mark, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and

696
00:43:07,389 --> 00:43:10,871
letting us know all about the different ways that renewable energy

697
00:43:10,931 --> 00:43:14,534
can help and how it can help not only our planet, but ourselves in

698
00:43:14,594 --> 00:43:18,517
terms of helping out at the wallet. So we really appreciate

699
00:43:18,537 --> 00:43:21,660
you taking time to to doing what you do and coming on and

700
00:43:21,700 --> 00:43:24,803
telling us all this stuff. And then obviously, again, thank you

701
00:43:24,843 --> 00:43:28,066
so much for what you and your team continually do. I think it's

702
00:43:28,086 --> 00:43:31,429
a necessity here in Canada to know

703
00:43:31,589 --> 00:43:34,752
what we have in terms of clean energy and where we're going and some

704
00:43:41,007 --> 00:43:44,748
Thank you, Mark, for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

705
00:43:44,908 --> 00:43:48,429
It was such a fun interview to do. I love doing these interviews because

706
00:43:48,449 --> 00:43:51,850
I hear so much information, so much misinformation, not only from

707
00:43:51,930 --> 00:43:55,110
media outlets, but also from people around me just being like, what about this? What about

708
00:43:55,130 --> 00:43:58,271
this? And questions and questions and questions that sometimes I can't answer. I don't

709
00:43:58,311 --> 00:44:01,451
know everything. I wish I did. I don't know everything. I just get it from the people that

710
00:44:01,491 --> 00:44:04,632
I interview and the articles that I get my information from.

711
00:44:05,012 --> 00:44:08,194
And so to be able to have Mark come in with, you know, the

712
00:44:08,234 --> 00:44:11,476
information that his staff, his organization looks out for

713
00:44:11,636 --> 00:44:14,978
and reports on all the time is just so nice to have

714
00:44:15,158 --> 00:44:18,540
and know that we're in our country, in our world, we're actually headed

715
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,583
towards a really great place when it comes to innovation on renewables and

716
00:44:22,623 --> 00:44:26,184
coming into implementing renewable energy. and being able to live

717
00:44:26,404 --> 00:44:29,927
off of renewable energy and even go into more of like being more dependent

718
00:44:29,987 --> 00:44:33,369
on ourselves in the future. It's going to be really interesting to see what

719
00:44:33,409 --> 00:44:36,572
happens. But I'm going to be sharing this interview with a lot of people, I can tell

720
00:44:36,592 --> 00:44:39,954
you that. But this is a lot of fun. But I want to hear your comments. I'm

721
00:44:39,974 --> 00:44:43,340
going to put the website of Clean Energy Canada in the show notes, in

722
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,665
the description. So you can just go below or in the show notes, depending on where you're watching,

723
00:44:46,685 --> 00:44:50,110
if you're watching on YouTube or wherever, Apple Podcasts,

724
00:44:50,130 --> 00:44:53,294
you're listening to this, or you're watching this on Spotify. Just go

725
00:44:53,314 --> 00:44:56,398
to the description of the show notes, and you'll be able to

726
00:44:56,438 --> 00:44:59,602
click on that website But also if you want to get a hold of me and you

727
00:44:59,622 --> 00:45:02,906
want to ask me questions or you have any comments on this episode, please feel free

728
00:45:02,926 --> 00:45:07,091
to comment below if you're on YouTube or if you're on Spotify

729
00:45:07,191 --> 00:45:10,655
or DM me at howtoprotecttheocean on Instagram. That's

730
00:45:10,875 --> 00:45:14,018
at howtoprotecttheocean. on Instagram. And of course, you know, if

731
00:45:14,658 --> 00:45:18,140
you're new to this and you haven't listened to the podcast a lot, but

732
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,301
you want to get more episodes, just click subscribe and

733
00:45:21,321 --> 00:45:24,483
hit that notification bell on YouTube. And of course, hit follow on

734
00:45:24,523 --> 00:45:27,745
all the other podcasting platforms that you can that you're

735
00:45:27,765 --> 00:45:31,126
a part of in your favorite podcast platform. So thank you. That's it for today's episode. Thank

736
00:45:31,146 --> 00:45:34,528
you so much for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

737
00:45:34,588 --> 00:45:37,850
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy