Killer Whales vs. Great White Sharks: Genetic Proof of Predation! 🦈🐋

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About a decade ago, great white sharks

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were popping up in South Africa on

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beaches without their livers.

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They were dead and they were just lying

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there, just carcasses were gone,

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and people were like, "What

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is going on with these livers?"

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Later found out that there were two orcas

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named Port and Starbird

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that would come in every once in a while

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and kill said great whites.

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And these great whites

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are known to be massive.

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They're like 18 footers, 20 footers, and

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they were typical of that area.

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That's where air jaws started.

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They were revered for what they could do,

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and that's jump out of the water as

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they're attacking the seal.

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They were the apex predator of the area

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until these orcas came by.

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That fueled a lot of research to find out

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why these orcas are

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going after these livers,

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what's happening, and until recently, we

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haven't really seen DNA

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evidence of this happening.

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We haven't really seen that, hey, these

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shark bites are from orcas.

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We haven't really seen these bites on the

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sharks that are

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actually from orcas until now.

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There was a paper that was recently

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released that was published in Ecology

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and Evolution, a peer-reviewed journal

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article that actually says genetic

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evidence of killer whale predation on

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white sharks in Australia.

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Now, I've been talking about South Africa

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because Port and Starbird, the orcas that

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have been around that have actually been

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killing these great white

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sharks are in South Africa.

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Now, they actually have

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DNA evidence in Australia.

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We're going to talk about why this is so

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important on this episode of the How to

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Protect Yours podcast.

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Let's start the show.

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[Music]

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Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another

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exciting episode of the How

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to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Loewen, and this is

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the podcast where you find out what's

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happening in the ocean, how you can speak

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up for the ocean, what you can do to live

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for a better ocean by taking action.

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On today's episode, we're going to be

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talking about just eating great whites.

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I know I've talked about this before, but

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now we actually have genetic evidence

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that shows there are some orcas that are

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eating great whites in Australia, not

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just South Africa, but in Australia.

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This is a pretty big deal because we've

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seen videos of orcas

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attacking sharks before.

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We know they're an apex predator.

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We know they go after other apex

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predators, but orcas truly are the apex

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predator of the ocean.

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They're smart.

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They hunt together.

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They're fast.

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They're enormous.

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And like I said before, they're smart and

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they're going to go

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after these great whites.

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But we haven't really seen genetic

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evidence of these great

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whites actually biting sharks.

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We know they go after the liver because

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the liver is so dense in nutrients that

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there's a reason why they go.

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Orgas have been known

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to attack bolamolas.

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They've been known to attack a lot of

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different sharks,

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blue sharks and so forth.

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But we didn't really know until recently

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and I mean recently by the past couple

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decades that orcas start going after gray

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white sharks or they have been going

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after gray white sharks.

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And we've seen it in South Africa.

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We've seen it in other places, but now

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we're seeing it in Australia.

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And so I thought this

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was pretty interesting.

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So it was kind of interesting to see the

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genetic analysis confirmed the presence

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of orca DNA within a bite room offering

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direct evidence of

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predation of these great whites.

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They also saw some I guess some scavenger

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sharks that were also had bite marks

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against the great white sharks.

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And that was a seven gill shark or a type

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of seven gill shark, which I

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thought was pretty interesting.

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Obviously, these were post death.

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And so these bites were just as the shark

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was dying and probably

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floating or in the water column.

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They come in and they grab their flesh

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and they leave as well.

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So now previous anecdotal reports and

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indirect observation suggested that orca

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predation could lead to behavioral

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changes in white sharks such

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as avoidance of a specific area.

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This study provides concrete evidence

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such that interactions happen and which

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may also have cascading effects in the

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marine ecosystems like

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Australia has some big great whites.

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We know this.

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This may or may not be the first

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predation on a great white.

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We don't know, but it could lead towards

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movement of these great

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whites to different areas.

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We saw this happen in South Africa.

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There's still a bit of scientific

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controversy in that whether it is due to

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the lack of prey that's in

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the area for the great whites.

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So they've actually moved areas or if

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it's the increase of predation by port

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and starboard and some South African

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areas where these great whites are

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actually just moving away and moving.

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I think it's more to the

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east of where they were before.

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We don't really know for sure, but we do

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know that they avoid the areas because

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there's something going on in that area.

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There is a good reason to believe that,

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hey, look, if these orcas are coming in

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and they're predating and they're getting

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better at doing it in South Africa, it

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would usually take two

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orcas to grab the liver.

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One would actually hold the great white

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while the other would rip the area where

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the liver would be and then actually take

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out the great white without really

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destroying the animal.

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I think killing it, but

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really ripping the animal apart.

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They'd be very precise bites.

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Then we heard from Dr.

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Allison Towner on the Beyond Jaws podcast

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that she has seen one orca actually take

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out a number of great

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whites within a few hours.

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So that this goes to show they're

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actually getting better and better at

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killing these great whites.

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And so the fact that we see some orca

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predation on great whites in Australia

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could mean that these great whites are in

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trouble from a population

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standpoint from these orcas.

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So now this predation event actually

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raises some interesting questions about

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the ecological balance

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between these two predators.

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It also highlights the importance of

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understanding predator prey interactions

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in designing conservation strategies for

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both species, particularly in regions

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where human activities and environmental

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pressures are increasing.

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So just think about it.

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If you have a great whites, which we're

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at one point and endangered species,

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they're starting to come back because of

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specific conservation strategies that

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would allow their prey to flourish.

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Like in California, we saw an increase in

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the great white population because there

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was an increase in

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the sea lion population.

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That was because of the

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Marine Mound Protection Act.

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Now, there was also an increase in the

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sea lion population, not only because of

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the Marine Mound Protection Act, but the

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Magnuson Stevens Act, which is a

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fisheries act that allowed for more

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protection on anchovies and sardines,

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which the sea lions would eat.

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So having those policies in place allowed

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not only the prey of the sea lions to

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flourish, but allowed the sea lions to

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flourish, which is the prey to the great

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whites, which allowed the

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great whites to flourish.

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Now there are so many great whites in

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Southern California.

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They're starting to move northward or

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they have moved northward into the San

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Francisco Bay area in the Monterey area.

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And now there's like large great white

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sharks in those areas, adult great white

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sharks, where the Southern California

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population are actually

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juvenile sharks in that area.

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So it's like a nursery habitat

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for those great white sharks.

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This all changes if you have orcas coming

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in and predating on great whites.

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It could shift the balance of specific

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prey of the great whites.

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So for instance, if there are seals in

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the area in Australia, what the great

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whites are eating, the net seal

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population could grow, which could affect

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their prey that would actually reduce

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their prey and the balance

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would be all shifted off.

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I don't know if this is happening.

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This is all assumptions.

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But this is what could happen when you

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have orcas come into an area and wreak

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havoc on an apex predator population.

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So we're going to see some really

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interesting research come out in the

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future from these two apex predators.

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The significance of the study is this is

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one of the first studies to provide

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genetic evidence of orca

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predation on great white sharks.

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While previous accounts were based on

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indirect observations, such as scars on

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sharks or even changes in their presence,

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this study is definitely

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proof of direct interaction.

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So this is one of the studies

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that says, hey, you know what?

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We actually have DNA evidence that orcas

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have bitten in these areas where they

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would normally bite in the girdle area

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where the liver is just behind.

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Also, these findings contribute to the

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understanding of predator hierarchy,

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competition and ecological impacts in

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marine systems, particularly in regions

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like South Africa

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where both species coexist.

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There's going to be some really cool

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things that are coming out of Australia

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from this research, even South Africa, as

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we really try to understand that

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relationship between orcas and great

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whites as well as other

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sharks that end up flourishing.

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So, for instance, in South Africa, when

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we saw the disappearance of great whites

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in the Gansby area, we also saw an

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increase in seven gill sharks in that

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area because seven gill sharks used to be

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a prey item of these great whites.

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So it's going to be really interesting to

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see what comes out further. And I can't

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wait to see what happens. I hope that the

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balance exists, but this is

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nature. This is what happens.

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Now, previously, I said that this is

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going to be interesting to see how this

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plays out, especially with human

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interactions or even environmental

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pressures that are increasing.

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So climate change is increasing. Coastal

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development is increasing. We're seeing

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fishing pressures increasing.

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All these play a dynamic role, not only

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as individual issues, but also as

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cumulative issues. And when you manage a

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population, a lot of populations, fish

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populations in general, they actually

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have slowed in their recovery because of

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outside pressures such as climate change.

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We don't know how fast a fish population

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can rebound off a change in population

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dynamics or predator prey dynamics if

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there's something else slowing it from

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actually recovering or

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actually the same area.

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The cod population, for instance, in the

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01:09:04,958 --> 01:09:07,375
northeastern or northwestern Atlantic or

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northeastern Canada, we have seen cod go

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from so abundantly available that you can

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just throw a bucket in like the 1800s and

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you could actually just grab it with a

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01:09:16,791 --> 01:09:17,458
bucket and you'd grab

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01:09:17,458 --> 01:09:18,083
like two or three fish.

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Now the cash per unit effort is so high,

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meaning it's really hard to find cod and

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there's so much protections on a call

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that you just can't have a viable

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commercial fishery like we

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used to have in the past.

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But that was because we let fishing get

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out of hand. We've been wanting that

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population to recover and we've seen

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01:09:35,416 --> 01:09:37,541
somewhat of a recovery, but it's taken

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01:09:37,541 --> 01:09:38,750
over 30 years for

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01:09:38,750 --> 01:09:39,583
that recovery to happen.

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And we're still not seeing it even close

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to what it used to be in the 70s and 80s

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01:09:45,041 --> 01:09:46,500
where they started to fall down as we

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01:09:46,500 --> 01:09:48,000
started to track those fish stocks.

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So you just never know what's going to

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happen. And a lot of times climate

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change, more fishing pressures for other

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fish that can affect the marine ecosystem

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in the communities that these fish are

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01:09:57,666 --> 01:09:58,583
living in, that cod fish are living in.

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01:09:58,583 --> 01:10:01,166
You just never know what's going to

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01:10:01,166 --> 01:10:04,208
happen. So having the data, having more

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01:10:04,208 --> 01:10:07,041
research, understanding how each of these

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01:10:07,041 --> 01:10:08,708
issues like climate change, fishing,

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01:10:08,708 --> 01:10:10,333
coastal development, water pollution and

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01:10:10,333 --> 01:10:11,958
marine plastics, all these different

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01:10:11,958 --> 01:10:13,833
types of human issues that will cause a

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01:10:13,833 --> 01:10:15,375
disturbance individually and

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01:10:15,375 --> 01:10:17,708
accumulatively will play a role in the

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recovery or the change in the population

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01:10:20,333 --> 01:10:21,833
dynamics and the predator prey

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01:10:21,833 --> 01:10:22,791
relationship between

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orcas and gray whites.

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01:10:24,583 --> 01:10:25,500
It's going to be really interesting to

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01:10:25,500 --> 01:10:27,708
see how this happens. But of course, you

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01:10:27,708 --> 01:10:29,416
can help by reducing your energy

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01:10:29,416 --> 01:10:31,541
consumption. You can help by reducing

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01:10:31,541 --> 01:10:33,791
your single use plastic usage. You can

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01:10:33,791 --> 01:10:35,791
help a lot of ways eating more

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01:10:35,791 --> 01:10:37,750
sustainable fish or avoiding fish

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01:10:37,750 --> 01:10:39,458
altogether or seafood altogether.

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There are so many ways that you can help

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01:10:41,791 --> 01:10:43,500
individually. If you want to find out

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01:10:43,500 --> 01:10:46,750
more, you can find out by staying in

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01:10:46,750 --> 01:10:48,416
touch with this podcast.

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01:10:48,416 --> 01:10:49,916
All you have to do is subscribe to the

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01:10:49,916 --> 01:10:51,708
YouTube channel and hit that notification

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01:10:51,708 --> 01:10:52,625
bell so you don't miss

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01:10:52,625 --> 01:10:53,583
any of the other episodes.

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01:10:53,625 --> 01:10:55,958
You can also hit me up on Spotify, on

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01:10:55,958 --> 01:10:57,708
Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast

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01:10:57,708 --> 01:10:59,250
app. And if you want to get ahold of me

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01:10:59,250 --> 01:11:01,958
directly, you can DM me on Instagram at

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01:11:01,958 --> 01:11:03,708
how to protect the ocean. But thank you

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01:11:03,708 --> 01:11:05,500
so much for joining me on today's episode

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01:11:05,500 --> 01:11:07,083
of the how to protect the ocean podcast.

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01:11:07,291 --> 01:11:08,875
I had a great time talking to you today.

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01:11:09,208 --> 01:11:10,875
I hope you enjoyed listening. Have a

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01:11:10,875 --> 01:11:12,458
great day. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.

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We'll talk to you next

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01:11:12,958 --> 01:11:13,583
time and happy conservation.