Rebuilding Fisheries in our Oceans: The Challenges and Progress in Canadian Fisheries Management

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Can you just talk a little bit about what type of work goes

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in the audits and why Oceanic Canada has taken it upon itself to

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We first started doing these audits in 2017, right

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when we were getting started up in Canada, because the

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answer to how our fisheries were doing was very unclear. And

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there wasn't really this kind of collated data set available.

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So we set out to do it ourselves. Last year we had less than

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a third of Canadian fish populations assessed as healthy,

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and this year we have just over a third of

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fish populations assessed as healthy, so 35% in

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that zone. Second biggest category would be

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the level of stocks that are in this uncertain status,

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so they don't have defined benchmarks to

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assess whether they are being fished at sustainable

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levels, and that's at

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34.5%, so very close to the same amount as healthy.

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And then the rest are in depleted categories, so

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13% in the cautious zone, and

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Hey, everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm

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your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean,

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how you can speak up for the ocean and what you can do to live for a better ocean by

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taking action. And this is the place if you haven't been here

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before, this is the place where you find out what's happening with ocean

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news, with how you can campaign for oceans and speak up

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for oceans and what you can do to take action on making

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the oceans better in your backyard. as well as

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in your oceans, in your country, internationally, wherever you

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want. Go to speakupforblue.com to find out more information, more podcasts, more

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YouTube videos. You can find it there. You can also get

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all that information going to your inbox or coming into your inbox by

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going to speakupforblue.com forward slash newsletter Monday

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to Friday at 8 a.m. Eastern. You will get an email to your inbox to

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be able to find out everything you need to know about the oceans. Today

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we're going to be focusing on the 8th annual Fisheries Audit from Oceana

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Canada. Fisheries Scientist Rebecca Skynes is here to talk

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about the audit, go through some of the great points that

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she sees and what she likes about this year's audit and the

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movement that's been made since last year. And also some of the low points

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that we've seen are some bad decisions regarding capelin and

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cod stocks and increasing those

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quotas and allowing offshore to increase those quota and

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fisheries to continue to happen. We're going

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to talk a little bit about a lawsuit that's happening because of that decision and

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why that decision was happening. It sounds like it's more at the political level than

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it is at the public service level. And so we're going to talk a lot

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about that and sort of the different levels and why finding

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out more and getting more information on the uncertain category for

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fishery stocks is really helpful, even if you

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get a critical designation to

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that fisheries. It's always nice to be able to rebuild those, to be

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able to find out what we need to rebuild them, because the faster we rebuild them, the

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faster they get better, is really what it comes down to. So let's

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move forward with the interview with Rebecca

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Skynes from Oceana Canada Fisheries Scientist. She's going to talk about

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this eighth annual fisheries audit from Oceana Canada. Enjoy

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the interview and I will talk to you after. Hey Rebecca, welcome back

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to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to

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I love it. I love it. It's great to have you back here today. We're going to

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get into some of the overall statistics

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that you guys take, the indicators that you take from Oceanic Canada.

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to discuss, you know, where are our fisheries, where's

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the health of our fisheries here in Canada? It's been a wild

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ride over the last three decades, let's just say, or even four or

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five decades, with the collapse of cod in the 90s

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and trying to rebuild stocks, and then I guess in the mid-2000s

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we started to see a decrease in the amount

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of data that was collected and just the amount of people that were, you know, that

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were present in the government for stock assessment, you

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know, collation and looking at data analysis and so forth.

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And then Oceanic Canada has come through and has done this, these fishery audits,

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these fish stocks audits for quite some time now. So

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we're going to talk about this year's report is just released, I believe, end

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There we go. Sorry. I've been seeing news on it and like a little update.

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So I'm sorry. My apologies. So just a couple of days ago. So this is

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great. So we're getting the word out just as it's released. And

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I'll put a link so that people can download the report. It'll be

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on Oceana Canada's website. But before we get into

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all that fun stuff, and there's a lot of updates on the cod fishery as well,

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let's just, can you just remind the audience of who you are and

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Absolutely. And happy World Fisheries Day. Yes, indeed.

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I'm happy to be here. I'm Rebecca Skynes. I'm a

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fishery scientist with Oceana Canada and Oceana

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Canada is a science based conservation organization. And we're

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focused on tackling some of the ocean's biggest threats, looking

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to strengthen national policies that rebuild abundance in

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gotcha and and we had you on last year to talk about this

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audit uh and so let's start from where we

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left off just to kind of give people an update so last

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year you know we had similar results to

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this year but can you just kind of just let us know like in terms of

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an overview of like healthy status of

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certain uh stocks, critical status

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of certain stocks, cautious level, and then the big one for me

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was uncertainty. Can you just kind of give us an update of where we

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Sure. So last year we had less than a third of

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Canadian fish populations assessed as healthy. And

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this year we have just over a third of

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fish populations assessed as healthy. That's

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35% in that zone. Second biggest category would be

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the level of stocks that are in this uncertain status.

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So they don't have defined benchmarks to

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assess whether they are being fish at sustainable levels,

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and that's at 34.5%, so very close

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to the same amount as healthy. And

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then the rest are in depleted categories, so

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13% in the cautious zone and 17% in the critically depleted zone.

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So anything in the critical zone is where

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serious harm is occurring to that fish population

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and really kind of impacting their ability

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to reproduce and rebound. And that's a

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level where there's a legal trigger to

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create a rebuilding plan and get the

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stock back on track and managed to

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Gotcha. Let's give the people just a little bit of

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knowledge on the audit itself. So you're

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doing this audit because you want to make sure the government is following the

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plans from the Fisheries Act to ensure that our stock, our fishery stocks

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are managed properly. Can you just talk a

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little bit about what type of work goes in the

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audits and why Oceanic Canada has taken it upon itself to do these audits?

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Yeah, we first started doing these audits in 2017, right

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when we were getting started up in Canada, because the

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answer to how our fisheries were doing was very unclear. And

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there wasn't really this kind of collated data set available.

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So we set out to do it ourselves and look through

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all the publicly available government documents. We're looking at

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stock assessments, management plans, science

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reports, and bringing it all together in one

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spreadsheet, identified indicators of

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success across management, science,

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you know, data and information, as well as monitoring

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coverage and that's kind of

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defined the indicators we've been tracking over the past eight years.

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So every year I dive into the reports once

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again, look at all of the newly published materials and

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update those indicators and start that process in the spring.

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And then all of that gets, you know, we

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send it to back to the department to verify and offer

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briefings to go over the data and make sure we're accurately reporting

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everything. Yeah. And then we write this report. We

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publish a nice, shiny public version and also

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include all of the kind of technical appendices and the spreadsheet for

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anybody to use. And we've seen a lot of people use

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the data to come up with their

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own research. And it's been really encouraging to

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see both the use of that data and kind

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of the recommendations that we've been putting forward finds

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Does the government put out their own reports on each stock? Like

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do they have their own technical? I know they have like a technical series. Do they do like

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an annual report for all the

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So that's something that they started doing after we

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started doing this audit. They started putting out a survey

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of fisheries. It's not as comprehensive as

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our data set, but we definitely use that to

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feed into ours. So they

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look and they've been kind of adding stocks that they've been tracking. across

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their reporting, but you can't really assess

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the trends as well. And there isn't a report

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to Parliament, which is something we'd really like to see the government having

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a self-accountability to Parliament and

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Yeah, that makes common sense, right? Having

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that to go back to the government. Government can look at this, make their

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assessment, and go back and try and improve the fisheries if they

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need to. Do you think, and it

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may not be directly, could be directly, do you think that the

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Oceanic Canada's fisheries audit put on pressure

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for the government to put out their own stock assessment reports

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for each one? Do you think that Oceanic Canada had that direct

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I think it was a contributing factor. I would like to

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believe so. And, you know, we do get a lot. This

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audit is well received and the recommendations are,

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you know, we do meet with the department across every

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region in Canada and in national headquarters in Ottawa to

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review the findings and our recommendations. So

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we have seen some of those recommendations taken up directly, including,

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you know, more transparency, more accountability. more data

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and reporting over the years. And even more

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recently in last year, the Office of

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the Auditor General put out a report directly

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on the department's performance on fisheries monitoring, which

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is something we've been kind of echoing through our audit as

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well over the past eight years. So there's

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been a lot more of this type of accountability on

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the department. But really what we're

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seeing now is we're on the right path, but

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really the pace needs to really pick up in

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Yeah, and I want to reiterate too, and we had you

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on last year to talk about this as well, but Oceanic Canada has

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a very good working relationship with the DFO scientists who

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are doing this stuff. You guys are working together, you're getting the

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data, but you also as an organization, puts

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a little pressure to be like, hey, this is where we're at right now. This is where we could

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be. Let's try and pick up, as you mentioned, pick

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up the pace a little bit and let's start to get more of these critical

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replenishment plans or rebuilding plans back faster.

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Let's get the uncertain, let's get knowledge

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on those, let's get assessments on those. and make sure that we

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can get this data. So you kind of wear, as an organization, you

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wear two hats in this regard. Is that a

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Yeah, when I'm involved in reviewing stock assessments, I

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have my scientist hat on and I come to the table without any biases

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or hidden agenda. And then when we're driving

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these recommendations forward. It's I'm putting on my advocacy, my

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scientist advocacy hat. Yeah. And, you

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know, really putting the pressure on and holding holding them

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accountable to these commitments. And yes,

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we've we've seen, you know, uptake in in both improvements

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in the science, but and better policies, stronger

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law over the past eight years. But

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the gaps are still very apparent, especially the implementation

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gap. So, you know, applying these laws, practicing

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what what is being, you know, available

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in the guidance and, you know, and the

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Yeah, and before we dive deeper into this report, can

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you just go over, and I think we did this last year too, but just

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review when the Harper government was in power

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before the Trudeau government. there was a big slashing of

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fisheries and science personnel that

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really kind of put a hindrance on knowing what stock

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is. So we had a little bit of like a data gap or an amount of

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resources. Can you just talk a little bit about that and how you've seen that

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change since that time? I know you haven't been

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with Oceana since when that happened, but just in terms of

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from an organizational perspective, has it changed to

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increase the amount of effort and prioritization of these stock

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Yeah, I mean, that was before my time. I've been in this role

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for three years now. So what I can say

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is the department is well resourced to

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do this work now. And ever

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since I started this job, And

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there has been significant investments in both science

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and there's even $30 million this

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year now allotted to increasing monitoring initiatives

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and implementing the fish stock provisions in

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the Fisheries Act. So there is dedicated staff

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love it okay good to know that's that's good to know let's dive in to

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the actual uh report you talked a little bit about some of the um

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some of the overview of the report like the healthy the the

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cautious critical and the uncertain so we know a little bit about about

240
00:15:44,882 --> 00:15:48,264
those Let's kind of break it up into sort

241
00:15:48,284 --> 00:15:51,666
of the good and not so good in the report. Let's

242
00:15:51,686 --> 00:15:55,228
start off with the good. What did you see that was

243
00:15:55,988 --> 00:15:59,090
like a positive change or some of

244
00:15:59,110 --> 00:16:02,452
the things that you really like to see that are trending upwards in

245
00:16:06,714 --> 00:16:11,016
Yeah, good is always a great place to start. Happy

246
00:16:11,076 --> 00:16:14,289
to talk about the good news. Um, yeah, this

247
00:16:14,349 --> 00:16:17,970
year, um, marked two years since

248
00:16:18,270 --> 00:16:22,432
rebuilding plans were supposed to be developed for 12 critically

249
00:16:22,452 --> 00:16:26,013
depleted stocks. Um, that was kind of mandated in,

250
00:16:26,173 --> 00:16:29,535
in regulations. And we started to see

251
00:16:29,735 --> 00:16:33,236
really high quality plans being produced, um,

252
00:16:33,276 --> 00:16:37,238
that have a hopeful future for rebuilding stocks,

253
00:16:37,258 --> 00:16:40,492
such as mackerel. The plan sets out

254
00:16:40,712 --> 00:16:44,153
that Mackerel can be rebuilt within six to nine years.

255
00:16:45,153 --> 00:16:48,814
Two cod stocks, Northern Gulf Cod, can

256
00:16:48,854 --> 00:16:52,355
be rebuilt within eight years. Southern Newfoundland Cod,

257
00:16:52,435 --> 00:16:58,850
rebuilt above critical levels within 14 years. We've

258
00:16:58,890 --> 00:17:02,212
been really encouraged by these plans following the

259
00:17:02,252 --> 00:17:05,894
new regulatory requirements. Unfortunately, the

260
00:17:06,234 --> 00:17:09,876
plans were not published in time for me to include

261
00:17:09,916 --> 00:17:14,099
that in, you know, tracking that in the indicators. But

262
00:17:14,139 --> 00:17:17,481
we knew that the plans were approved. And

263
00:17:17,801 --> 00:17:21,363
since assessing the indicators, we've seen the

264
00:17:21,503 --> 00:17:25,132
Mackerel Plan and the Southern Newfoundland Cod plan be

265
00:17:25,192 --> 00:17:28,954
published. So those are now going to be followed. Those stocks

266
00:17:29,014 --> 00:17:32,476
are on the track to success. We've

267
00:17:32,496 --> 00:17:36,278
also seen, you know, the draft plans for really depleted

268
00:17:37,038 --> 00:17:41,160
ground fish in the Gulf of St. Lawrence introduce

269
00:17:41,580 --> 00:17:46,133
better measures for mitigating bycatch. and

270
00:17:46,394 --> 00:17:50,735
a rebuilding plan for Haida Gwaii Pacific Herring on

271
00:17:50,755 --> 00:17:54,177
the West Coast, being really a gold

272
00:17:54,237 --> 00:17:58,118
standard on how to bring

273
00:17:58,198 --> 00:18:02,500
forward both Indigenous knowledge systems and Western science through

274
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,622
collaboration with the Haida Nation on

275
00:18:05,642 --> 00:18:09,015
this rebuilding plan. So that's been really

276
00:18:09,095 --> 00:18:12,136
encouraging and we hope to see more of

277
00:18:12,176 --> 00:18:17,497
these plans roll out in the immediate future. Another

278
00:18:19,437 --> 00:18:22,618
improvement that we've seen this year is an increase in

279
00:18:22,698 --> 00:18:26,019
climate change impacts being included in science

280
00:18:26,059 --> 00:18:29,739
documents and advice documents. That

281
00:18:29,799 --> 00:18:33,779
has increased steadily. over

282
00:18:33,819 --> 00:18:37,421
the past years that we've been looking at it. However, there

283
00:18:37,481 --> 00:18:41,282
is still a gap in how that's going to be reflected in management decisions.

284
00:18:42,103 --> 00:18:46,485
So more information is being brought forward. But

285
00:18:46,545 --> 00:18:49,666
the management decisions really need to be adaptive to

286
00:18:49,726 --> 00:18:53,088
reflect kind of preparing for climate change impacts on some of these most

287
00:18:54,662 --> 00:18:58,024
Can I just ask, before we go on, in terms of climate

288
00:18:58,044 --> 00:19:01,687
change impacts, can you just tell the audience what types of

289
00:19:01,867 --> 00:19:05,770
impacts would we see in Canada that

290
00:19:08,752 --> 00:19:12,394
Absolutely. Climate change is affecting fisheries right

291
00:19:12,454 --> 00:19:16,016
now. Fish are moving. Waters

292
00:19:16,177 --> 00:19:20,680
are warming and changing. Some populations

293
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,102
aren't living as long or getting as big.

294
00:19:25,230 --> 00:19:28,593
They might not be able to find prey in the same areas or

295
00:19:28,613 --> 00:19:31,936
at the same times that they used to. So in terms

296
00:19:31,976 --> 00:19:36,380
of managing and preparing the fisheries for these impacts, there

297
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,164
needs to be, you know, risk included

298
00:19:40,704 --> 00:19:44,477
in decisions and management decisions like where

299
00:19:44,538 --> 00:19:48,302
to fish, how long and what amount. So

300
00:19:48,442 --> 00:19:52,147
all of that needs to be included in order to be best prepared

301
00:19:53,228 --> 00:19:56,452
to adapt to these changes and to be

302
00:20:00,151 --> 00:20:04,113
Gotcha. OK. Sorry to interrupt. Yeah, no worries. I

303
00:20:04,133 --> 00:20:07,414
just wanted to make sure. Because sometimes we talk about climate change. We always mention

304
00:20:07,474 --> 00:20:11,476
climate change, but then we don't dive into how

305
00:20:11,516 --> 00:20:14,918
they're being affected by that. Because a lot of people think of corals

306
00:20:14,958 --> 00:20:19,240
and bleaching and so forth, but we don't think of actual fish getting

307
00:20:19,620 --> 00:20:23,122
sort of attacked or getting impeded by climate

308
00:20:26,060 --> 00:20:29,441
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, some fish can can move and

309
00:20:29,481 --> 00:20:34,523
they can can follow that the temperatures

310
00:20:34,563 --> 00:20:37,664
that they're able to live within and others are, you know,

311
00:20:37,704 --> 00:20:41,545
more sedentary, stuck, stuck in certain areas. And you see local

312
00:20:41,565 --> 00:20:45,026
depletion happening. And similarly, there's coastal

313
00:20:45,066 --> 00:20:48,667
communities in those areas. And and all of a sudden, they can't rely

314
00:20:48,807 --> 00:20:52,028
on those local populations of fish for their

315
00:20:52,048 --> 00:20:55,518
fisheries to continue. So It's really important to

316
00:20:55,558 --> 00:20:59,422
prepare for these changes. We're seeing them now. And

317
00:21:00,523 --> 00:21:04,107
let alone, you know, the kind of ocean changes we're seeing, bigger

318
00:21:04,167 --> 00:21:07,911
storms, more kind of destruction of

319
00:21:07,971 --> 00:21:11,534
local harbors and whatnot. So, yes,

320
00:21:12,856 --> 00:21:16,359
it's really essential to kind of, at the very least,

321
00:21:17,285 --> 00:21:21,006
be considering climate change impacts in the way that decisions

322
00:21:24,827 --> 00:21:28,388
Yeah. And it's nice that they're, like you said, that they're in the rebuilding plan. So they're actually

323
00:21:28,448 --> 00:21:31,669
taking them into consideration. And that will be,

324
00:21:31,689 --> 00:21:34,830
I mean, that will be important because if you don't, then you could

325
00:21:37,390 --> 00:21:40,531
Absolutely. But yeah, kind of one

326
00:21:40,571 --> 00:21:44,533
more highlight, if you will, We

327
00:21:44,593 --> 00:21:47,835
have seen an increase in setting some

328
00:21:47,855 --> 00:21:51,337
benchmarks. So a slight decrease

329
00:21:51,417 --> 00:21:55,359
in the amount of stocks that are in the critical zone. And

330
00:21:55,419 --> 00:21:59,841
this is likely driven by the Fisheries

331
00:22:00,041 --> 00:22:03,242
Act regulations, where if a stock is

332
00:22:03,503 --> 00:22:06,744
critical, it gets a rebuilding plan. We

333
00:22:06,784 --> 00:22:10,026
looked into these uncertain stocks a number of years

334
00:22:10,086 --> 00:22:13,518
ago and assessed that there's very likely more

335
00:22:13,598 --> 00:22:17,725
critical and cautious stocks hidden in that category. And

336
00:22:17,865 --> 00:22:21,711
so assigning stock status, albeit a

337
00:22:25,190 --> 00:22:28,372
Right, right. Now I'm looking at, uh, which

338
00:22:28,412 --> 00:22:31,653
is great. I mean, these are great highlights to see. Unfortunately, I wish there were

339
00:22:31,673 --> 00:22:35,055
more, but they're great highlights to see. Um, I'm looking at

340
00:22:35,655 --> 00:22:38,897
part of the, the document here, uh, that was, that was published that I'll put, that

341
00:22:38,917 --> 00:22:42,419
I'll link into the show notes. So it says, compared to 2023, there are now,

342
00:22:42,519 --> 00:22:45,601
and it says, like, at reduced risk, 13 more at

343
00:22:45,661 --> 00:22:49,202
reduced risk, uh, nine fewer in the cautious zone

344
00:22:49,262 --> 00:22:52,424
at reduced, and five more critical and

345
00:22:52,444 --> 00:22:55,766
then nine fewer. So can you just explain a little bit about that

346
00:22:57,908 --> 00:23:01,510
Yeah, definitely. So that's looking from last year to this year. So

347
00:23:02,430 --> 00:23:05,712
nine fewer in the uncertain category. That's kind of that shift that

348
00:23:05,732 --> 00:23:09,835
I just mentioned. Those stocks got a status. It

349
00:23:09,875 --> 00:23:13,597
could be a critical status, cautious or healthy. And

350
00:23:13,637 --> 00:23:16,903
we've seen more kind of move into be a sign that they are

351
00:23:17,083 --> 00:23:20,824
healthy. And for the

352
00:23:20,944 --> 00:23:24,726
critical stocks that either came from uncertain

353
00:23:24,746 --> 00:23:28,648
to critical or something slipped from cautious down

354
00:23:28,688 --> 00:23:32,249
to critical. And so that's, you

355
00:23:32,289 --> 00:23:36,211
know, a concerning increase that we've seen more

356
00:23:39,046 --> 00:23:42,210
OK, OK. But I think

357
00:23:42,311 --> 00:23:46,116
that's what is really interesting about the uncertain category,

358
00:23:46,256 --> 00:23:49,661
is you could have more that are

359
00:23:50,342 --> 00:23:53,426
healthy. And you could have some that are in the cautious and some that

360
00:23:53,446 --> 00:23:56,843
are in the critical. But at least we're assigning something. and

361
00:23:57,264 --> 00:24:00,347
even if they're in the critical and obviously that's not good you don't want

362
00:24:00,367 --> 00:24:03,590
to see them in the critical but at least we know they're in the critical that triggers that

363
00:24:03,730 --> 00:24:06,913
that rebuilding plan then we can start moving as

364
00:24:07,213 --> 00:24:11,077
as a country like start managing it properly and and hopefully seeing

365
00:24:11,097 --> 00:24:14,200
that increase or at least finding out why it's in the critical zone and and

366
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,243
be able to do that i think That's the great part. We have 34%, I

367
00:24:18,263 --> 00:24:21,404
think it's 34.5% in the uncertain. There's a lot there that

368
00:24:21,464 --> 00:24:24,646
could be healthy, we just don't know. But they could also

369
00:24:24,706 --> 00:24:27,828
be critical and we need to know to make sure that we can get them back up

370
00:24:27,888 --> 00:24:31,770
to where they were, which I think is really

371
00:24:31,790 --> 00:24:35,245
cool to just have that. just to assign

372
00:24:35,285 --> 00:24:38,846
more into categories, I think, is really great. So that's a

373
00:24:38,866 --> 00:24:42,087
good, I like that, that's a good way forward. Now let's

374
00:24:42,107 --> 00:24:45,608
start talking about some of the not-so-great things. I don't

375
00:24:45,628 --> 00:24:48,809
want to say bad, but not-so-great things. But we looked at good, now we're

376
00:24:48,829 --> 00:24:52,650
looking at bad. What were the things that you didn't like that were

377
00:24:54,890 --> 00:24:58,411
Exactly. Yes, on the other side

378
00:24:58,591 --> 00:25:02,577
of, you know, we saw a slight shift of stocks in that uncertain category. we

379
00:25:02,637 --> 00:25:06,259
have not seen significant change, despite having

380
00:25:06,459 --> 00:25:09,941
a policy since 2009 that

381
00:25:09,981 --> 00:25:13,303
kind of sets forward how we're supposed to be putting

382
00:25:13,363 --> 00:25:16,625
these stocks in stock status categories in order to manage them

383
00:25:17,245 --> 00:25:20,727
better. And so that's really

384
00:25:20,787 --> 00:25:23,989
concerning, as well as that increase in

385
00:25:24,029 --> 00:25:27,371
critical stocks. And we

386
00:25:27,591 --> 00:25:31,193
are now at the fifth year of having a Modernized Fisheries Act.

387
00:25:31,848 --> 00:25:35,629
Um, that includes those regulations for setting

388
00:25:35,669 --> 00:25:39,210
out rebuilding plans. Um, and currently only

389
00:25:40,150 --> 00:25:43,591
30 out of nearly 200 fish stocks have this,

390
00:25:44,051 --> 00:25:48,112
uh, fisheries act apply to them. Um, yeah,

391
00:25:48,152 --> 00:25:51,513
the act was meant to be kind of rolled out,

392
00:25:52,053 --> 00:25:55,634
um, so that these rebuilding plans would be able to be developed because

393
00:25:55,674 --> 00:25:59,834
they have to be. developed within two years. So

394
00:26:00,394 --> 00:26:04,437
that initial priority list of 30 stocks included

395
00:26:04,477 --> 00:26:08,140
12 that were critically depleted. Two

396
00:26:08,180 --> 00:26:12,022
years later, we've seen these really high quality rebuilding plans

397
00:26:12,443 --> 00:26:16,986
slowly being rolled out, albeit a lot of them unpublished. But

398
00:26:17,026 --> 00:26:20,869
the rest don't have any regulatory requirement applying

399
00:26:20,889 --> 00:26:24,039
to them yet. Right now, we've seen a

400
00:26:24,620 --> 00:26:28,761
second list of around 65 stocks, including

401
00:26:28,781 --> 00:26:32,522
around six in the critical zone being proposed

402
00:26:32,583 --> 00:26:35,964
to be added to the Fisheries Act. But that still leaves,

403
00:26:36,884 --> 00:26:41,526
you know, almost half of the fish stocks still without without

404
00:26:41,726 --> 00:26:45,407
a regulatory timeline. So there's been a really slow rollout

405
00:26:46,087 --> 00:26:50,509
of what appears to be a very strong rebuilding

406
00:26:50,999 --> 00:26:54,300
requirement in the Fisheries Act. And

407
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,921
that has ultimately led to huge delays in rebuilding these

408
00:26:57,961 --> 00:27:01,922
stocks, huge costs to Canadians, both,

409
00:27:02,263 --> 00:27:05,864
you know, the the governmental burden as well as

410
00:27:07,444 --> 00:27:10,965
the cost of the fishing industry and not seeing these stocks rebuilt

411
00:27:11,025 --> 00:27:14,666
to healthy and profitable levels. And

412
00:27:15,547 --> 00:27:18,593
yeah, it's this has also led to a

413
00:27:18,633 --> 00:27:22,475
lot of kind of inconsistent management decisions because we

414
00:27:22,535 --> 00:27:25,938
see stocks that are included in the Fisheries Act getting

415
00:27:26,318 --> 00:27:29,760
better decisions that are following the

416
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,143
law and others such as,

417
00:27:34,404 --> 00:27:37,746
for example, forage fish like capelin we

418
00:27:37,766 --> 00:27:41,918
see continued overfishing on. So we're

419
00:27:41,958 --> 00:27:45,979
really calling on the government to pick up the pace and

420
00:27:46,059 --> 00:27:50,501
include all these stocks in the Fisheries Act,

421
00:27:50,681 --> 00:27:55,243
get these rebuilding plans in place and followed, as

422
00:27:55,303 --> 00:27:58,824
well as all the other good qualities that we need in management,

423
00:27:58,844 --> 00:28:02,285
which is for climate change, implementing the rights of indigenous

424
00:28:02,325 --> 00:28:05,947
peoples, and improving fisheries

425
00:28:07,487 --> 00:28:10,771
So we went from 30 out

426
00:28:10,811 --> 00:28:14,135
of 200 stocks that were

427
00:28:14,675 --> 00:28:17,758
actually, I guess they were part of the

428
00:28:19,420 --> 00:28:22,844
Yeah, they're listed in the Fisheries Act for these

429
00:28:25,246 --> 00:28:28,470
So if it's critical against the rebuilding plan, if it's

430
00:28:28,510 --> 00:28:32,294
cautious or healthy, it has to be managed towards healthy.

431
00:28:33,093 --> 00:28:36,536
And then this year, there were 60 more

432
00:28:36,616 --> 00:28:39,718
that were added or that will be added or are being

433
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,462
So we haven't seen them in the regulations yet. And

434
00:28:49,489 --> 00:28:52,813
And it's interesting because you, when you say that, you almost say

435
00:28:52,853 --> 00:28:56,137
it like sarcastically because you've been working at this for, I

436
00:28:56,177 --> 00:28:59,861
know, three years, but you've been working as a fishery scientist for longer. And I

437
00:28:59,901 --> 00:29:03,526
think you and I can kind of pick up on a little bit of that. You're like, it's proposed. It

438
00:29:03,546 --> 00:29:07,330
doesn't mean it's going to be there. Out of the 60, like,

439
00:29:07,350 --> 00:29:10,453
do you think all of them? will be on there because that's sort of

440
00:29:10,533 --> 00:29:13,655
what I'm hoping obviously hoping for but what I get when I hear oh

441
00:29:14,075 --> 00:29:17,417
there's there's about 60 more that are being proposed but it sounds

442
00:29:17,457 --> 00:29:20,518
like you know you're a little a little worried that not all of

443
00:29:20,538 --> 00:29:23,880
them will get proposed. Could there's some that be removed from that or

444
00:29:28,725 --> 00:29:31,866
Uh, it's pretty likely that all will be put forward because to get on

445
00:29:31,906 --> 00:29:35,127
that initial list, they had to kind of go through a whole other

446
00:29:35,147 --> 00:29:38,709
process. Um, but we engaged in

447
00:29:38,749 --> 00:29:42,370
the consultation period for that list. Uh, we said, keep

448
00:29:42,430 --> 00:29:46,071
all 65 stocks on this list, add more. There's

449
00:29:46,091 --> 00:29:49,792
some other critical stocks that need to be included and they need the building plans to

450
00:29:49,812 --> 00:29:53,434
be triggered. Um, so we were, we, we

451
00:29:53,454 --> 00:29:57,092
put forward, you know, uh, kind of a subset of priorities to

452
00:29:57,132 --> 00:30:01,215
be considered to be added in this regulation, as

453
00:30:01,255 --> 00:30:05,079
well as, you know, get a third and final list

454
00:30:10,083 --> 00:30:14,326
What's taking them so long? Like,

455
00:30:18,510 --> 00:30:21,893
Yeah, I mean, the there is a lack of urgency on

456
00:30:22,173 --> 00:30:25,664
kind of seeing the long-term vision for

457
00:30:25,764 --> 00:30:29,647
what healthy fisheries could mean for Canada. Kind of

458
00:30:29,807 --> 00:30:33,190
inconsistent decisions from fisheries

459
00:30:33,230 --> 00:30:36,352
management. It appears we're still kind of

460
00:30:36,392 --> 00:30:41,636
stuck in this short-term crisis management way

461
00:30:41,696 --> 00:30:46,780
of thinking and applying the law and policies. And

462
00:30:46,820 --> 00:30:51,003
yeah, really kind of a long, a lack of a long-term vision. And

463
00:30:51,023 --> 00:30:54,879
what that comes down to is a lack of a plan And

464
00:30:54,919 --> 00:30:59,141
that's where we see things like having a rebuilding plan, really

465
00:30:59,661 --> 00:31:03,322
setting the bar higher than what we're doing right now. Status

466
00:31:03,342 --> 00:31:06,763
quo is not sufficient. We could really be in a better place,

467
00:31:07,344 --> 00:31:12,105
healthier oceans, more profitable fisheries, better

468
00:31:12,145 --> 00:31:15,847
prepared against climate change, food

469
00:31:15,907 --> 00:31:20,745
security for those who depend on it most. these

470
00:31:20,805 --> 00:31:24,126
types of goals are not currently being reflected in

471
00:31:27,107 --> 00:31:30,308
Yeah, it just seems like, I know government always works slow, but it seems

472
00:31:30,328 --> 00:31:34,189
like the pace of this with the re, sort of the new Fisheries Act,

473
00:31:34,409 --> 00:31:37,750
as you mentioned, the modernized Fisheries Act, had

474
00:31:37,790 --> 00:31:41,391
a lot to say that was really great. I feel like it's a stronger Fisheries

475
00:31:41,491 --> 00:31:44,606
Act after everything that went through in the past where it was

476
00:31:44,626 --> 00:31:48,049
kind of stripped down and then rebuilt with

477
00:31:48,069 --> 00:31:51,492
the new government that was in with the Trudeau government. That's what one of the reasons why

478
00:31:51,892 --> 00:31:55,075
you know they got they got in was based on this. Now we

479
00:31:55,135 --> 00:31:58,218
have all these mandates, we have all these proposed actions and then we

480
00:31:58,258 --> 00:32:01,481
can put them together but the pace just takes so long and

481
00:32:01,521 --> 00:32:05,304
I'm sure you echo my thoughts of just being so frustrated with

482
00:32:05,364 --> 00:32:09,075
just the lack of movement on this. I

483
00:32:09,175 --> 00:32:12,317
know a lot of DFO scientists and

484
00:32:12,337 --> 00:32:15,659
they're fantastic scientists that would probably want to see the pace

485
00:32:15,739 --> 00:32:19,442
picked up. Where is the level where, can

486
00:32:19,482 --> 00:32:22,844
you say like where it slows down? Is it at the top?

487
00:32:23,344 --> 00:32:26,706
I know we've had like, we were talking about this before, we recorded where

488
00:32:27,066 --> 00:32:30,429
there's been six ministers in six years for Department

489
00:32:30,469 --> 00:32:33,891
of Fisheries and Oceans. That can't be helping

490
00:32:34,031 --> 00:32:38,113
with the pace. But where in that sort of chain of command does

491
00:32:41,196 --> 00:32:45,158
Yeah, like you said, there's a lot of excellent scientists working on

492
00:32:45,399 --> 00:32:48,641
the stock assessments and the science advice for managing these

493
00:32:48,681 --> 00:32:53,645
stocks and setting up higher standards. And

494
00:32:53,785 --> 00:32:57,327
where we're seeing some gaps is in the management. So

495
00:32:57,407 --> 00:33:00,830
kind of that mechanism of getting science advice applied in

496
00:33:00,870 --> 00:33:04,512
management decisions consistently and following policies

497
00:33:04,572 --> 00:33:07,781
and laws. And then Of course, there's

498
00:33:07,821 --> 00:33:11,163
always a slowdown in the bureaucracy when

499
00:33:11,203 --> 00:33:15,366
it comes to developing and implementing regulations.

500
00:33:16,607 --> 00:33:20,049
And the kind of other priorities come

501
00:33:20,089 --> 00:33:23,632
into focus and shift kind of rebuilding to the side.

502
00:33:25,133 --> 00:33:28,835
And so that's where kind of ministerial leadership comes

503
00:33:29,015 --> 00:33:33,095
in. It's part of the minister's mandate This

504
00:33:33,155 --> 00:33:36,996
is the same. It's a different minister, but it's the same mandate, actually,

505
00:33:37,897 --> 00:33:41,938
to implement the Fisheries Act for all stocks. And

506
00:33:42,038 --> 00:33:45,240
so, you know, all the

507
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,802
direction is there. What we need is stronger leadership

508
00:33:51,467 --> 00:33:54,949
Yeah, because even like the people who are in charge of the policy and managing the

509
00:33:55,009 --> 00:33:58,471
fisheries, not just the scientists and the stock assessment people, but everybody

510
00:33:58,531 --> 00:34:01,632
else within that chain of command, I know they're gung-ho with

511
00:34:01,673 --> 00:34:06,455
trying to get these plans implemented. They work really hard. And

512
00:34:06,595 --> 00:34:09,957
as a citizen, not just taking out of my science and conservation sort

513
00:34:09,997 --> 00:34:13,361
of role here, I would like to see it. you know, better managing, and

514
00:34:13,441 --> 00:34:16,847
just like you mentioned, the pace to get these plans

515
00:34:16,887 --> 00:34:20,454
in place and actually not just set, but

516
00:34:20,615 --> 00:34:24,892
implemented to make sure that they go forward. I

517
00:34:24,932 --> 00:34:28,113
know the scorecard and the audit kind

518
00:34:28,153 --> 00:34:31,934
of tracks that, but how do

519
00:34:32,054 --> 00:34:35,395
we as citizens keep

520
00:34:35,475 --> 00:34:39,936
up to date on how the government is doing during

521
00:34:39,976 --> 00:34:43,317
the year while you're collating all this information? How do we keep

522
00:34:43,417 --> 00:34:46,839
up to date on what's happening and

523
00:34:47,039 --> 00:34:50,222
some of the decisions that are happening so that we don't just, I mean,

524
00:34:50,262 --> 00:34:53,425
obviously the audit's really handy, but so we can see it through and

525
00:34:57,749 --> 00:35:02,033
Yeah, I mean, we as an organization participate

526
00:35:02,073 --> 00:35:05,356
in the advisory committees for a number of these

527
00:35:06,197 --> 00:35:09,660
more concerning stocks, as well as the

528
00:35:09,700 --> 00:35:13,103
kind of science processes. It depends on,

529
00:35:13,123 --> 00:35:16,265
you know, your interests and your skill sets. Of course, if you're kind of

530
00:35:16,285 --> 00:35:20,948
more academically inclined, you can dive into the data and

531
00:35:21,148 --> 00:35:24,890
share research, share this information. If you

532
00:35:25,010 --> 00:35:28,292
kind of lie more in kind of the advocacy camp, we have

533
00:35:28,392 --> 00:35:31,714
a whole bunch of actions that would really support this

534
00:35:31,774 --> 00:35:35,616
work, including, you know, sharing your voice, your perspectives.

535
00:35:36,483 --> 00:35:40,305
Um, writing, uh, we have petitions

536
00:35:40,485 --> 00:35:44,606
that, uh, can be put forward letters to the minister, letters

537
00:35:44,666 --> 00:35:48,248
to the fisheries management, um, when these decisions

538
00:35:48,368 --> 00:35:51,789
are, are being kind of considered, um, which

539
00:35:52,209 --> 00:35:55,851
for a lot of these stocks happens in the spring. Um, and, and

540
00:35:55,891 --> 00:35:59,252
we try and keep the public engaged as much as we can. We, um,

541
00:36:00,033 --> 00:36:03,454
publish all of our letters of recommendation for setting

542
00:36:03,794 --> 00:36:07,349
harvest levels and, and, um, you

543
00:36:07,389 --> 00:36:12,457
know, before the fisheries decisions are made. And

544
00:36:13,017 --> 00:36:16,663
yeah, there's a lot that can be done beyond taking

545
00:36:19,025 --> 00:36:22,247
And it is great. I think people should read this, not only just

546
00:36:22,327 --> 00:36:26,469
as Canadians, but as people who are interested in how it

547
00:36:26,529 --> 00:36:29,851
works, how everything works in terms of the different levels, like

548
00:36:29,871 --> 00:36:33,313
the healthy, cautious, critical, uncertain, in terms of how climate change is

549
00:36:33,373 --> 00:36:36,835
put into place. There's a lot of information that goes into this audit

550
00:36:36,895 --> 00:36:39,977
that I feel is not only good for a

551
00:36:40,057 --> 00:36:43,720
scientist, but also for the general public. And I feel like everybody

552
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,402
should be involved in this. It doesn't matter where you live across the country, this

553
00:36:47,462 --> 00:36:51,025
is something that you should be about. Even if you're in the US, because a lot of times we

554
00:36:51,445 --> 00:36:54,827
share fish stocks of some sort, because fish don't see borders and

555
00:36:54,847 --> 00:36:58,029
so forth. So I think it's important to be able to see that. And we have

556
00:36:58,129 --> 00:37:01,732
similar management practices

557
00:37:02,452 --> 00:37:06,415
that we take care of. So I think that's always great. I know

558
00:37:06,455 --> 00:37:09,637
we talked about how there's 200 fishery stocks, and we can't talk about

559
00:37:09,657 --> 00:37:13,160
them all in this interview, obviously. But

560
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,842
I wanted to just revisit, you were on the podcast earlier

561
00:37:16,902 --> 00:37:20,285
this year to talk about the meetings that

562
00:37:20,305 --> 00:37:24,248
you attended for the cod fisheries and the capelin fisheries,

563
00:37:24,288 --> 00:37:27,510
which are very closely related. Can

564
00:37:27,530 --> 00:37:30,832
you just talk about the results of those

565
00:37:30,932 --> 00:37:34,495
meetings, what happened, and our disappointment with

566
00:37:38,378 --> 00:37:41,600
Sure. So, um, I guess maybe

567
00:37:41,660 --> 00:37:45,063
two years back, well, cod have been kind of known to

568
00:37:45,103 --> 00:37:48,505
be critically depleted, collapsed, um, you

569
00:37:48,525 --> 00:37:52,148
know, since the nineties, um, similar timeframe for

570
00:37:52,248 --> 00:37:55,610
the Capelan fishery. Um, and

571
00:37:56,151 --> 00:37:59,753
that was a stock, the Capelan stock was in that uncertain

572
00:37:59,793 --> 00:38:03,036
category. And, and we had done an assessment that, um,

573
00:38:03,752 --> 00:38:07,134
suggested that it was in the critical zone. And sure enough,

574
00:38:07,834 --> 00:38:12,757
a DFO assessed it as well as in the critical zone. More

575
00:38:12,857 --> 00:38:16,720
recently, the assessment for Cod

576
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:22,443
kind of brought forward an ecosystem approach and used

577
00:38:23,043 --> 00:38:26,485
a longer time series and the link

578
00:38:26,525 --> 00:38:31,071
that Cod need Capelin to grow. and

579
00:38:31,091 --> 00:38:35,294
to thrive. So it established kind of that predator-prey connection.

580
00:38:36,855 --> 00:38:40,497
And surprisingly, what that led to was a lowering

581
00:38:40,717 --> 00:38:44,059
of the limit reference point. And so while

582
00:38:44,079 --> 00:38:47,542
there's still really low amount of cod and capelin in

583
00:38:47,582 --> 00:38:51,104
the water, both were reassessed as

584
00:38:53,363 --> 00:38:56,766
And not the critical. It was cautious, not critical. Not the critical zone.

585
00:38:56,926 --> 00:39:00,649
So they went out. But they are projected to decline. And

586
00:39:00,689 --> 00:39:04,612
that's mainly because there's not enough capelin for

587
00:39:04,652 --> 00:39:08,035
COD to grow. So there's just enough

588
00:39:08,095 --> 00:39:11,517
for COD to kind of be in that cautious zone. But

589
00:39:12,158 --> 00:39:16,461
it's flatlined since 2016. And

590
00:39:16,601 --> 00:39:19,864
it's projected to decline because capelin are also not doing

591
00:39:19,904 --> 00:39:23,087
well. And what

592
00:39:23,127 --> 00:39:27,749
that led to was really an interesting kind

593
00:39:27,789 --> 00:39:32,291
of discussion on reopening the fishery, despite

594
00:39:32,331 --> 00:39:35,732
there being the same amount of fish in the water. But

595
00:39:35,792 --> 00:39:40,714
kind of that reassessment led a lot of folks from industry

596
00:39:40,794 --> 00:39:44,136
and specifically the offshore industry in Newfoundland and

597
00:39:44,156 --> 00:39:47,337
Labrador to advocate for a

598
00:39:47,397 --> 00:39:50,839
reopening of the commercial fishery And

599
00:39:51,079 --> 00:39:54,461
similarly, the inshore fishery requesting an

600
00:39:54,581 --> 00:39:58,883
increase in the quota. And what

601
00:39:58,963 --> 00:40:02,664
ultimately ended up happening was just that, the

602
00:40:03,204 --> 00:40:07,986
commercial fishery for cod after 30 years of being closed, albeit

603
00:40:08,006 --> 00:40:11,448
there still had been a fishery existing on that stock

604
00:40:11,508 --> 00:40:14,929
for a number of years at pretty higher levels.

605
00:40:16,871 --> 00:40:20,553
But the commercial fishery was reopened and

606
00:40:20,873 --> 00:40:25,155
the quota was increased. This

607
00:40:25,235 --> 00:40:29,237
has led to. You know, more

608
00:40:29,337 --> 00:40:32,778
risk of and quicker kind of decline of

609
00:40:32,818 --> 00:40:36,900
both of these stocks to the critical zone and

610
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,302
really seen as kind of premature and irresponsible management,

611
00:40:42,203 --> 00:40:46,473
not following the intent of the Fisheries Act. overriding

612
00:40:46,513 --> 00:40:49,875
science advice and not following the department's own

613
00:40:49,915 --> 00:40:53,917
advice to maintain a closure and to

614
00:40:58,580 --> 00:41:02,342
So sorry to interrupt, like when they're in the cautious zone, say

615
00:41:02,402 --> 00:41:05,944
both for Kaplan and Cod, in the Fisheries Act,

616
00:41:05,964 --> 00:41:09,226
does it say that they're not supposed to increase or open

617
00:41:09,266 --> 00:41:12,648
up a fishery? Is it supposed to stay closed when they're in those two zones, the critical

618
00:41:14,443 --> 00:41:17,505
There's no language directly like that, but it

619
00:41:17,725 --> 00:41:21,388
is that they, that any decision must minimize the

620
00:41:21,468 --> 00:41:25,150
risk of, of decline. And what we saw was

621
00:41:25,710 --> 00:41:30,093
the decision took the highest risk of decline. Um,

622
00:41:31,014 --> 00:41:34,536
and you know, really a short-term outlook of,

623
00:41:34,896 --> 00:41:38,239
you know, reopening this fishery for one year and, and, you

624
00:41:38,259 --> 00:41:41,641
know, I might be back in the critical zone again in two to three years.

625
00:41:42,091 --> 00:41:45,594
Yeah. Triggering a rebuilding plan. What

626
00:41:45,634 --> 00:41:49,537
was also really concerning was this decision was made without

627
00:41:49,617 --> 00:41:54,821
any long term plan, any target, any goals. And

628
00:41:55,301 --> 00:41:59,124
so that that kind of doubles down on the

629
00:41:59,184 --> 00:42:02,947
kind of irresponsible nature of that decision and really

630
00:42:02,987 --> 00:42:06,410
short sightedness of where we could be with COD, which

631
00:42:06,530 --> 00:42:09,712
is at a rebuilt level could

632
00:42:09,752 --> 00:42:13,815
provide 16 times more jobs, um,

633
00:42:14,316 --> 00:42:17,958
and five times the economic revenue.

634
00:42:17,978 --> 00:42:21,599
Um, and similarly with Cape

635
00:42:21,639 --> 00:42:25,041
Lynn, um, this is a fishery that's nearly

636
00:42:25,922 --> 00:42:29,524
15,000 tons a year, um, has never been, uh, closed

637
00:42:29,564 --> 00:42:33,106
in recent years. And it's a critical forage

638
00:42:33,126 --> 00:42:36,849
fish for not just cod, but for

639
00:42:37,089 --> 00:42:40,392
whales, for seabirds, for other marine mammals, for

640
00:42:40,492 --> 00:42:43,975
other large predatory fish that

641
00:42:44,415 --> 00:42:48,098
have profitable fisheries. And

642
00:42:48,218 --> 00:42:51,621
so really honing in on efforts on ensuring there's

643
00:42:51,641 --> 00:42:54,784
enough capon for not just cod, but for the

644
00:42:58,811 --> 00:43:02,294
it just uh... to me and it's just made no sense

645
00:43:02,354 --> 00:43:05,937
for that decision as you mentioned you've already made the case for

646
00:43:05,977 --> 00:43:09,080
it by far you know cautious zone for both of

647
00:43:09,180 --> 00:43:12,423
them uh... doesn't say anything in the fisheries act out

648
00:43:12,463 --> 00:43:16,046
to reopen uh... you know the the the measured

649
00:43:16,066 --> 00:43:19,976
plans dot don't say anything to read to reopen them Was

650
00:43:20,036 --> 00:43:23,699
this sort of all those cases like

651
00:43:23,739 --> 00:43:27,021
that you could put forth to say let's keep it closed or

652
00:43:27,061 --> 00:43:30,283
let's keep it at the levels that they're at, maybe even a case to

653
00:43:30,343 --> 00:43:33,445
reduce some of it just to make sure because we know the levels of

654
00:43:33,525 --> 00:43:36,847
growth are predicted to be stagnant, was this just

655
00:43:37,027 --> 00:43:40,749
overridden by the minister or were there other people

656
00:43:41,570 --> 00:43:45,112
within DFO, Fisheries and Oceans, talking about overriding

657
00:43:47,122 --> 00:43:51,105
It appears to be a matter of ministerial discretion

658
00:43:51,946 --> 00:43:55,388
because, you know, there's actually been a court case filed

659
00:43:55,448 --> 00:43:58,751
now and we've started to see some of the documents that went

660
00:43:58,791 --> 00:44:02,273
to the minister, most notably from the deputy

661
00:44:02,313 --> 00:44:06,296
minister herself, recommending that the fishery remain

662
00:44:06,356 --> 00:44:10,459
closed and that there be no increase in the quota for

663
00:44:10,499 --> 00:44:14,402
a number of reasons. And the decision to

664
00:44:14,462 --> 00:44:18,136
reopen it didn't come with very strong evidence.

665
00:44:18,837 --> 00:44:22,098
We'll see what happens with the court case, which is

666
00:44:22,118 --> 00:44:25,799
taking place early 2025. And similarly, the

667
00:44:25,899 --> 00:44:29,480
decision will be revisited again in the spring. And

668
00:44:29,500 --> 00:44:32,961
so what we really want to move forward on

669
00:44:33,141 --> 00:44:36,522
better management for both of these stocks is

670
00:44:36,562 --> 00:44:40,470
to get out of this crisis management, kind of reactive decision-making,

671
00:44:40,830 --> 00:44:44,550
set forward a plan, have some clear goals to work towards,

672
00:44:45,551 --> 00:44:48,731
ensure that it's ecosystem focused, that

673
00:44:48,791 --> 00:44:52,692
we are restoring these links in the ecosystem so

674
00:44:52,732 --> 00:44:56,633
that there's enough healthy capelin, enough cod getting

675
00:44:56,673 --> 00:45:00,414
to healthy levels so that there can be long-term sustainable

676
00:45:03,535 --> 00:45:06,856
Yeah, I mean, I'm glad there's a court case brought forward. I'm

677
00:45:06,896 --> 00:45:10,077
sure Oceania Canada is following it. Who brought forward the court case?

678
00:45:10,117 --> 00:45:13,298
Was it a collaboration of

679
00:45:16,479 --> 00:45:19,760
No, there's yet another issue that the

680
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:30,488
inshore fisheries union sees, which is that they had

681
00:45:30,828 --> 00:45:34,630
a commitment to the first one hundred and fifteen thousand

682
00:45:34,690 --> 00:45:38,071
tons of the fishery. So by reopening it

683
00:45:38,151 --> 00:45:43,552
and allowing offshore and foreign access

684
00:45:43,813 --> 00:45:46,994
to the cod stock, that that kind of overrides that

685
00:45:47,034 --> 00:45:50,295
commitment so that they brought forward the court

686
00:45:50,335 --> 00:45:53,916
case. But of course, you know, the decision itself will

687
00:45:58,337 --> 00:46:02,803
frustrating is it for you and your colleagues to

688
00:46:04,565 --> 00:46:07,689
see a modernized fisheries act be

689
00:46:07,729 --> 00:46:11,153
put forward, everything that sounds great in the act, having

690
00:46:11,173 --> 00:46:16,151
rebuilding plans putting

691
00:46:16,191 --> 00:46:19,672
those forward, seeing things in the cautious, like having those levels and

692
00:46:20,552 --> 00:46:23,713
management acts based on that, and then having one or two

693
00:46:23,773 --> 00:46:26,954
people override all of those and just say, no, no, you know what?

694
00:46:27,574 --> 00:46:30,795
We're going to open it. How does that

695
00:46:30,955 --> 00:46:34,456
make you feel as a scientist and as someone from Oceania Canada,

696
00:46:34,676 --> 00:46:37,857
like working to make sure that we manage these

697
00:46:41,848 --> 00:46:46,551
Yeah, I mean, it fuels me. I see the issue so blatantly. There

698
00:46:46,611 --> 00:46:50,113
needs to be more accountability, more transparency in

699
00:46:50,133 --> 00:46:54,075
the decision making, more inclusivity of, you

700
00:46:54,115 --> 00:46:57,277
know, those who both hold rights and

701
00:46:57,317 --> 00:47:00,598
who have a stake in the fishery. And and

702
00:47:00,899 --> 00:47:04,581
so I'm I'm really kind of activated by seeing

703
00:47:04,621 --> 00:47:09,213
bad decisions and knowing where we could be. So that's

704
00:47:09,313 --> 00:47:12,534
that's what drives me and trying to solve these these

705
00:47:12,574 --> 00:47:15,975
problems and and move forward.

706
00:47:16,035 --> 00:47:19,437
We we have the tools. We have strong

707
00:47:19,497 --> 00:47:23,958
laws. We have other great examples and

708
00:47:24,018 --> 00:47:27,800
policies, great science to leverage. And

709
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,161
so it's about kind of and that's

710
00:47:31,181 --> 00:47:34,362
why we focus on kind of the national scale change. But, you know, we

711
00:47:34,403 --> 00:47:37,929
work regionally as well. Some regions are applying

712
00:47:38,189 --> 00:47:41,773
these tools better than others. And so really

713
00:47:41,813 --> 00:47:45,536
having a concerted and collaborative effort so

714
00:47:45,556 --> 00:47:48,900
that we can see, you know, long

715
00:47:51,482 --> 00:47:54,765
Yeah, absolutely. Let's shift a little bit. I mean, we're kind

716
00:47:54,785 --> 00:47:59,585
of on the level of politics. In

717
00:47:59,605 --> 00:48:03,386
terms of looking at who the minister is and so forth, looking

718
00:48:03,446 --> 00:48:06,947
ahead over the next year, there's likely

719
00:48:07,028 --> 00:48:10,829
to be a federal election to

720
00:48:10,869 --> 00:48:14,570
come in. I think it's safe to say there's likely

721
00:48:14,630 --> 00:48:17,911
to be a change in the party that's in

722
00:48:17,951 --> 00:48:21,172
government. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it could happen. It

723
00:48:21,232 --> 00:48:24,993
seems like all the polls are suggesting that the Conservatives could

724
00:48:25,073 --> 00:48:28,552
win a majority. Liberals have

725
00:48:28,692 --> 00:48:32,014
touted and professed that they are going to

726
00:48:32,074 --> 00:48:35,236
be more environmentally friendly, they are going to address climate change, and they

727
00:48:35,276 --> 00:48:38,779
have put policies forward. Whether they're implementing fast

728
00:48:38,819 --> 00:48:42,241
enough, as we even discussed today, is something that

729
00:48:42,421 --> 00:48:45,783
we need to discuss. Conservatives seem less

730
00:48:45,943 --> 00:48:49,386
environmentally focused and more focused on taking away some

731
00:48:49,426 --> 00:48:53,108
of those policies. The whole Axe the Tax campaign and

732
00:48:53,749 --> 00:48:57,558
them sort of Like

733
00:48:57,598 --> 00:49:01,101
just taking away all the carbon tax sort

734
00:49:01,141 --> 00:49:04,864
of policies and so forth. How does

735
00:49:05,764 --> 00:49:10,568
Oceanic Canada, an organization that's dedicated

736
00:49:10,608 --> 00:49:13,910
to ensuring that we can fish forever and

737
00:49:14,011 --> 00:49:17,996
properly and sustainably, How does

738
00:49:18,016 --> 00:49:21,538
the organization prepare for any government

739
00:49:21,578 --> 00:49:24,679
shift when there's a shift in power? I mean, we've had the Liberals in power for

740
00:49:24,699 --> 00:49:27,880
the last nine years. You've been working on

741
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,161
this for the last three years. Has there been

742
00:49:31,201 --> 00:49:35,362
discussions internally about how that

743
00:49:35,422 --> 00:49:38,823
will be approached? Or is it just too early to tell? But if there

744
00:49:38,923 --> 00:49:42,084
is a shift in government with what looks to

745
00:49:47,025 --> 00:49:50,287
Yeah, that's an important question. And, you know, change is always

746
00:49:50,347 --> 00:49:53,549
happening, especially at the political level. And

747
00:49:53,769 --> 00:49:57,231
and so what we're really focused on is

748
00:49:58,152 --> 00:50:02,515
trying to kind of depoliticize fisheries management by

749
00:50:02,575 --> 00:50:05,877
moving forward with strong laws and regulations so that

750
00:50:06,317 --> 00:50:09,639
there's rules that everyone can follow. And it's not up

751
00:50:09,699 --> 00:50:13,902
to the whims of different leadership because

752
00:50:13,922 --> 00:50:17,788
there is a lot of discretion that is afforded to both

753
00:50:17,808 --> 00:50:21,234
the minister and those involved in

754
00:50:21,475 --> 00:50:25,442
higher levels of politics. Um, so by

755
00:50:25,562 --> 00:50:29,405
kind of working at, at this level, um, and.

756
00:50:30,205 --> 00:50:34,268
Ensuring that there's the law is being applied and followed.

757
00:50:34,289 --> 00:50:38,312
Um, that's something that everyone can get behind. Um, of

758
00:50:38,372 --> 00:50:41,954
course we do have, we offer this, um,

759
00:50:42,335 --> 00:50:45,797
the audit information to both, to all parties.

760
00:50:46,618 --> 00:50:49,740
Um, and we did actually have some meetings, um, on,

761
00:50:49,901 --> 00:50:53,988
on these topics and kind of share some of the priorities about rebuilding.

762
00:50:54,429 --> 00:50:57,590
You know, we are about more fish, more fishing and how

763
00:50:57,630 --> 00:51:00,931
to get there. And that

764
00:51:01,031 --> 00:51:04,813
is something that I think a lot of people can get behind. And

765
00:51:05,373 --> 00:51:08,834
especially as there's increasing threats

766
00:51:08,915 --> 00:51:13,036
and impacts from things like climate change and other

767
00:51:13,256 --> 00:51:16,827
issues that people care about. So that's kind of where where

768
00:51:16,867 --> 00:51:20,012
we're at is trying to get as much done as we

769
00:51:20,052 --> 00:51:23,237
can with this current government, as well as

770
00:51:23,277 --> 00:51:27,224
looking forward to, you know, enforcing

771
00:51:29,932 --> 00:51:33,553
Yeah, makes makes perfect sense. I like the whole depoliticizing fisheries

772
00:51:33,613 --> 00:51:37,034
management because that's shouldn't matter what political parties in play want

773
00:51:37,074 --> 00:51:40,516
people to fish. We want it to be sustainable. And it's just that's

774
00:51:42,356 --> 00:51:46,378
So, yeah. And there shouldn't be, you know, fights

775
00:51:46,438 --> 00:51:50,019
and conflicts over every decision every

776
00:51:50,059 --> 00:51:53,400
single year. It's really unproductive and

777
00:51:53,460 --> 00:51:57,762
it's not it's leading to great underperformance

778
00:51:58,142 --> 00:52:02,864
in in fisheries, businesses, and the

779
00:52:02,924 --> 00:52:06,525
kind of stability for coastal communities. So we

780
00:52:06,545 --> 00:52:10,647
really want to look forward and look

781
00:52:10,687 --> 00:52:13,948
to anybody who kind of shares that longer term vision.

782
00:52:14,899 --> 00:52:18,082
Absolutely. Rebecca, this has been such

783
00:52:18,122 --> 00:52:21,304
a pleasure to have you back on to be able to talk about this. I want to thank you

784
00:52:21,424 --> 00:52:25,127
for you and your team to put in the work that you do to make

785
00:52:25,167 --> 00:52:28,650
this wonderful document. I read it every year and I absolutely

786
00:52:28,710 --> 00:52:32,073
love it. It really gives me perspective of where we are,

787
00:52:32,093 --> 00:52:35,316
where we've been, and where we need to go, and it helps me

788
00:52:36,596 --> 00:52:39,858
sort of decide the types of content that we're gonna be putting up here

789
00:52:39,878 --> 00:52:43,099
on the How to Protect the Ocean podcast and on our YouTube channel.

790
00:52:43,119 --> 00:52:46,240
So I really appreciate you spending the time with

791
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,622
us. I know you've probably done a lot of, you're probably doing a lot of

792
00:52:49,882 --> 00:52:53,103
media right now to talk about this audit. So I

793
00:52:53,143 --> 00:52:56,585
do appreciate you being here. And of course, you're welcome back anytime

794
00:52:56,625 --> 00:53:00,284
to talk about more. about fisheries and hopefully we'll

795
00:53:00,304 --> 00:53:03,846
be able to talk about more positive things that are happening over the

796
00:53:03,886 --> 00:53:07,128
next year. So thank you again. I really appreciate it and looking forward to having you

797
00:53:07,669 --> 00:53:11,271
Thank you. Yeah, I really appreciate being able to share this with your audience and

798
00:53:11,511 --> 00:53:14,572
I hope it encourages and activates others as it

799
00:53:15,593 --> 00:53:19,050
Nice, I love it. Thank you so much. Thank you, Rebecca, for

800
00:53:19,110 --> 00:53:22,651
joining us today. And I know you're in a media blitz to talk

801
00:53:22,691 --> 00:53:25,752
about the fisheries audit this year. It was just released. It

802
00:53:25,772 --> 00:53:29,173
was two days. It had been released since when I talked to her and

803
00:53:29,233 --> 00:53:32,594
recorded this interview. So I really appreciate you talking to

804
00:53:32,674 --> 00:53:36,055
us and you spending the time with us to explain everything that goes into the audit

805
00:53:36,335 --> 00:53:39,496
and some of the highlights and the low points of the

806
00:53:39,556 --> 00:53:42,697
audit this year. It seems like we're making some strides. I think it would

807
00:53:42,717 --> 00:53:46,318
be great if we made some strides a little faster. Just as Rebecca said,

808
00:53:46,358 --> 00:53:50,460
I agree with her there. And it's interesting just to

809
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,942
hear what's been happening. And even though we have

810
00:53:53,962 --> 00:53:57,565
a modernized fisheries act, even though we have plans from

811
00:53:57,605 --> 00:54:01,027
that fishing act to help guide the management of

812
00:54:01,407 --> 00:54:04,870
fisheries and oceans to manage those stocks better. And then they're not implemented

813
00:54:04,930 --> 00:54:08,792
just by one person or a couple of people who just say, you know what, we're not

814
00:54:08,812 --> 00:54:12,215
gonna do that. We're gonna increase the cod stocks and the capelin

815
00:54:12,235 --> 00:54:15,440
stocks. in terms of the quota. And we're going to make

816
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,566
sure that people can fish now, even though that will probably go down to

817
00:54:18,586 --> 00:54:21,952
the critical level in a couple of years because of that extra pressure of fishing.

818
00:54:23,098 --> 00:54:26,320
It seems like we're repeating history over and over again. It could be

819
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,782
because we've had six DFO fisheries ministers in six years.

820
00:54:30,203 --> 00:54:33,565
I don't know. But something needs to change. Something at that level needs

821
00:54:33,585 --> 00:54:36,987
to change. Better management. We have to follow the actual plans

822
00:54:37,027 --> 00:54:40,129
we put in place, because that's what laws are for. That's why we need to do it. And

823
00:54:40,349 --> 00:54:43,932
it's interesting to see what will happen with this lawsuit by the Inshore Fisheries

824
00:54:44,012 --> 00:54:47,213
Union. because they're affected because those are really comes down

825
00:54:47,233 --> 00:54:50,635
to like the the local and and artisanal fishers that

826
00:54:50,795 --> 00:54:54,717
will benefit and know that'll benefit the communities you talked about. Rebecca

827
00:54:54,737 --> 00:54:57,839
talked about the benefit to local communities that fish and that

828
00:54:57,859 --> 00:55:01,120
it could increase by like 16 times or And that's

829
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,582
a huge, that's a huge increase. And we need to make sure that that continues to

830
00:55:04,622 --> 00:55:08,405
happen by making better management decisions, being a little bit more patient and

831
00:55:08,445 --> 00:55:11,687
move faster in some of implementing those plans and

832
00:55:11,707 --> 00:55:14,929
being a little bit more patient with how the stocks rebuild because we don't

833
00:55:15,069 --> 00:55:18,291
know how things are gonna be affected from climate change and

834
00:55:18,331 --> 00:55:21,773
other disturbances that we've seen in the past. And then we've seen this creeping up

835
00:55:21,813 --> 00:55:25,135
and getting worse and worse and worse. So we have

836
00:55:25,175 --> 00:55:28,297
to be very conservative from a scientific point of view

837
00:55:29,458 --> 00:55:32,762
when it comes to that. So I love at the end when I asked her about like,

838
00:55:32,802 --> 00:55:36,927
how do you prepare for a new government? What's gonna happen is depoliticize fisheries

839
00:55:36,967 --> 00:55:40,351
management. Can you imagine if we depoliticize climate change and

840
00:55:40,391 --> 00:55:43,735
fisheries management and ocean plastic and all that stuff? That

841
00:55:43,815 --> 00:55:46,996
would be amazing. I don't know if that could happen, but I

842
00:55:47,056 --> 00:55:50,358
love sort of the thought process in there and making

843
00:55:50,438 --> 00:55:53,900
sure that, look, we're just looking out for local communities. We're looking out for the fishing community.

844
00:55:54,260 --> 00:55:57,642
We're looking out for the people who benefit along with,

845
00:55:57,702 --> 00:56:00,963
you know, of all the fish processing and the people around there

846
00:56:00,983 --> 00:56:04,425
that benefit from that industry. That's what we're looking out for, plus we're protecting the

847
00:56:04,445 --> 00:56:07,867
environment. So there's a lot of win-wins in that situation. And

848
00:56:07,907 --> 00:56:11,089
so it becomes really, really important. It's complex. It's not easy. We

849
00:56:11,109 --> 00:56:14,752
know that. It's difficult to go through. But I'm

850
00:56:14,792 --> 00:56:17,994
really glad that there are people like Rebecca and her team to be able to help

851
00:56:18,094 --> 00:56:21,417
out in Oceania Canada as well as other organizations to help out with

852
00:56:21,457 --> 00:56:24,579
the fisheries. Really, really great interview. Love having Rebecca on.

853
00:56:24,879 --> 00:56:28,121
Love to know what you think about fisheries in Canada and fisheries where

854
00:56:28,161 --> 00:56:31,644
you're listening from. If you're not from Canada and you're from the US or you're from England

855
00:56:31,684 --> 00:56:35,487
or you're from you know, Ireland, Scotland, you

856
00:56:35,527 --> 00:56:38,750
know, Australia, India, Brazil, we're listened to all

857
00:56:38,790 --> 00:56:42,133
over the world. I would love to hear your thoughts on what's happening in

858
00:56:42,173 --> 00:56:45,736
your country. Do you have information from your country? I

859
00:56:45,756 --> 00:56:49,139
know it's difficult to get information from here if it wasn't for this fisheries audit in

860
00:56:49,199 --> 00:56:52,503
Canada, but I would love to hear how easy it is to get information. Do you even know

861
00:56:52,543 --> 00:56:55,725
what's happening in your fisheries? Love to hear your thoughts. Hit

862
00:56:55,745 --> 00:56:58,967
me up on on Instagram at how to protect the ocean or

863
00:56:58,987 --> 00:57:02,309
you can leave a comment on our YouTube channel You can also leave a comment on

864
00:57:02,329 --> 00:57:05,730
the video for Spotify, but I'd love to hear your

865
00:57:05,770 --> 00:57:09,012
thoughts on this And we can just you know, I start

866
00:57:09,052 --> 00:57:12,474
the conversation you continue it. So this is really great. So again, thank you to Rebecca

867
00:57:12,494 --> 00:57:16,196
I want to thank you for listening the audience for listening to this episode and

868
00:57:16,236 --> 00:57:19,697
all the other episodes you've listened to Thank you so much for joining us on today's episode

869
00:57:19,717 --> 00:57:22,859
of the how to protect the ocean podcast I'm your host Angelou and have a great day.