Seafood Laws and Ocean Justice: How Legal Frameworks Shape the Future of Fisheries

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Overfishing is a

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complex problem to solve.

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It's not something that

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we can solve overnight.

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Obviously, if we would have been able to,

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we would have done it by now.

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But there are a lot of

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layers within fisheries.

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There's the science portion,

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there's the advocacy portion,

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the activism portion, there's

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the fishing community portion,

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there's the

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recreational versus commercial,

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and even within the commercial,

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there's the artisanal

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versus industrialized.

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There are a lot of

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different layers within

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fisheries that make it

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really complex to solve.

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On top of that, there

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are laws that govern

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the way we manage

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everything in the ocean.

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Not necessarily the high seas,

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but there are that is coming,

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but there are laws within everybody's

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exclusive economic zone

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that could differ

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depending on the country or state,

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that could differ depending

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on where they are in the world.

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And it could differ in the approach that

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they have to marine fisheries.

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And that's a lot to take in.

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And so it can be confusing to find out

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where these laws are going

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and how to work through these laws and

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how to make them better.

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And so I invited Ava

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Von Huchlum to the podcast

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to be able to discuss this.

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She is a legal professional passionate

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about making the seafood

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sector more responsible.

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She started an advisory firm called

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Natural Justice to support the sector

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with more diligent consideration of

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national and international law and policy

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and impacting seafood sustainably.

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We're going to talk to Ava about law and

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fisheries on this episode of the How to

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Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody, welcome back to another

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exciting episode of the How

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to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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I'm your host Andrew Lewin and this is

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the podcast where you find out what's

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happening with the ocean, how you could

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speak up for the ocean, what you can do

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to live for a better

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ocean by taking action.

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Not today's episode.

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We're going to be talking about the law

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and fisheries law of the

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sea and law of the fish.

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We're going to be talking to Ava van

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Hooklem who is someone who decided when

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she went to law school to choose

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governing fish instead of going to

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corporate law or going to

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criminal law as many others do.

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She decided to forego maybe the big bucks

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and to live a life of impact by looking

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after fisheries around the world and

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working with different governments,

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working with different organizations,

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working with different private ventures

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and companies to be able to discuss and

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be able to manage policy and law of

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fisheries internationally.

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And I think that is something that we

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don't really get to

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discuss on this podcast.

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So it's really fun to be able to have

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someone with Ava's background and

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experience to come on the podcast and

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kind of take us through the law of the

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sea and the law of the fish to be able to

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like, what is law for

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fisheries and how is it managed?

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How can we make it better?

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What are the trends that we see?

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We go through all that in

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this interview with Ava.

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So here is the interview with Ava Van

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Hoeklem from Natural Justice.

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Enjoy and I'll talk to you after.

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Hey Ava, welcome to the How

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to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Are you ready to talk

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about fisheries and the law?

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Always appreciate the invite.

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Love it.

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I love it.

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I'm super excited because it's not all

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every day that we get a professional law

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person here, you know, a law

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professional, especially around

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sustainability and the sea and around

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seafood, around fisheries.

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I'm very excited to dive deep into, you

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know, what the laws are around and what's

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happened in the past, what was good, what

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was bad and kind of get into the trends

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of what's happening now and

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what's needed in the future.

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I think there's a lot of things that we

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can discuss today that we're going to

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discuss today that people don't realize

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what happens in fisheries

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that kind of gets hidden.

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It's not over like the talk, the talk of

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the town around fisheries.

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A lot of times when we talk about people

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just learning more about fisheries, we

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always hear about fishing communities,

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you know, fishermen, fishermen, women who

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are out there, you know, some people say,

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oh, everything's over fish.

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Some people, some

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fisheries are sustainable.

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There are groups out there that try and

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keep us sustainable

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and transparency is key.

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So we're going to get

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into all of that stuff.

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But before we do, Eva, I want you to just

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let us know who you are and what you do.

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Yeah, thanks. And you're right.

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It is sometimes rather

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niche field to work in.

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I must say my fellow law students were

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definitely surprised when I said I was

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specializing in fish.

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Yeah, since most of them went into

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corporate law,

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contract law, all that stuff.

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But yeah, so my name is Eva van Hoeklum

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originally from the Netherlands and I own

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Natural Justice, which is a small

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consultancy and I work with clients

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globally and I specialize in really the

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intersection of law and fisheries.

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So I started about eight

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years ago with with the specialty.

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And when I started, you know, you go to

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the usual suspects in terms of what law

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is relevant for fisheries.

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I really started with the sea fisheries

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law, trade law, environmental law.

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But now increasingly, I'm also looking

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more at some overlooked areas of law that

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I believe are really impacting our

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efforts to make fisheries more

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responsible, more equitable and linking

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this to the obligations that states have

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under international law of the sea and

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environmental law, etc.

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So, yeah, I'd be very happy

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to expand on that a little bit.

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And yeah, I'm really with that type of

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work, hoping to bring more focus on the

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role of states and fisheries management

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and the role of law in that as well as

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some more nuance sometimes where I feel

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like a lot of discussions around states

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is very much, they're unwilling.

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They don't want to collaborate with this.

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They're not doing enough there.

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And I really just don't

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think it's that black and white.

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It's a very gray area.

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And there's a lot to explore there.

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So yeah, I do a lot of research in that

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intersection really of the fisheries

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sector practically and

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then the laws that impact it.

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I love it.

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I love it.

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I think that's that's wonderful.

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I can't wait to get into all of this.

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What you know, you talked a little bit at

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the beginning, like your classmates in

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law school were a little surprised when

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you decided to pick fish as something to

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focus on as your niche to focus on.

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Like we know lawyers get paid a lot of

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money when they go into corporate, they

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go into criminal law or whatever.

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And you see a lot.

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You see shows like suits and things like

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that all over the world.

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You see these types of shows that come up

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because people are interested in the way

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lawyers speak and the way they do

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business and it's always like high-end

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stuff and they charge a lot for their

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hourly rate and all this kind of stuff.

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You decided to fish.

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You decided to choose in a sort of

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environmental law, but even more niche

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down from environmental law.

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What made you decide to

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follow that route in law school?

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Knowing that, you know, environmental

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law, maybe you don't get paid as much as

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corporate law, you know, now we don't

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think into finances, but it's definitely

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a very different way of doing things.

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So just love to know your rationale

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behind following that path.

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I love it, but love

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to know your rationale.

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Yeah, certainly.

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And there's I think two stories I can

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tell you to illustrate that a little bit.

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So there's one that I tell a bit more

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often, but a little bit of background is

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I wanted to study law.

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I was about 12 years old when I decided I

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wanted to go to law school because I feel

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the law is really just the most tangible

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thing we have to protect

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people to protect the planet.

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And, you know, you get confronted at a

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young age, you realize the

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world is not a fair place.

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It's, you know, people

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need to be protected.

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And I've always seen the

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law as a way to make impact.

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So that's always been a very

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important motivator for me.

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And then I was initially really focused

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on working in areas that just came out of

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conflict or with refugees.

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And so that's that's one story is that I

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actually went ahead and did this work.

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So I was living in Beirut and working in

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a very challenging

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area of the city there.

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And I was, you know, trying to do my part

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and supporting people that just came out

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of conflict and, you know, doing my work

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with humanitarian law, refugee law.

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And I realized I'm just not cut out for

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it. It's too damn hard.

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Like it's really I was like, I'm going to

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either get used to this, which is not a

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good option or but I cried

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myself to sleep every night.

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So one thing is kind of losing

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my career path that I was on.

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And then another thing is

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I took a big sailing trip.

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So I had this crazy plan to make it from

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Amsterdam to Australia

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without catching a flight.

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And at some point, you

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have to jump on a boat. Right.

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So I did this in Malaysia.

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I found an Australian guy.

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He needed to bring back a sailing boat.

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And so I ended up sailing through

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01:08:27,458 --> 01:08:29,166
Indonesia with him for two months.

279
01:08:29,916 --> 01:08:33,083
And we had like a lure out in the back.

280
01:08:33,541 --> 01:08:36,875
And all it was catching was plastic. And

281
01:08:36,875 --> 01:08:39,000
so that tells me, OK, there's there's an

282
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:40,041
issue with plastic here.

283
01:08:40,250 --> 01:08:42,000
But more than that, it's where's all the

284
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:44,041
fish. And we tried to

285
01:08:44,041 --> 01:08:45,416
buy a fish of fishermen.

286
01:08:45,708 --> 01:08:47,208
We saw fishermen that were just out there

287
01:08:47,208 --> 01:08:48,708
in boats for days, not

288
01:08:48,708 --> 01:08:49,833
enough food, not enough water.

289
01:08:50,250 --> 01:08:52,208
And it was very confrontational. It

290
01:08:52,208 --> 01:08:53,500
really made me realize that

291
01:08:53,500 --> 01:08:55,583
our oceans are not doing well.

292
01:08:55,625 --> 01:08:59,041
And this is not just bad news for the

293
01:08:59,041 --> 01:09:00,708
oceans themselves, but you

294
01:09:00,708 --> 01:09:02,000
could see it's impacting people.

295
01:09:02,208 --> 01:09:03,708
And these people often didn't really have

296
01:09:03,708 --> 01:09:05,041
an alternative. What do you do if you

297
01:09:05,041 --> 01:09:06,916
live in a tiny island? Right. Right.

298
01:09:07,083 --> 01:09:08,458
There's no fish to catch. How are you

299
01:09:08,458 --> 01:09:10,250
going to feed your children? How are you

300
01:09:10,250 --> 01:09:12,000
going to create any livelihood?

301
01:09:12,333 --> 01:09:14,166
So that was, I think, really for me, the

302
01:09:14,166 --> 01:09:18,500
main push where whenever when I went back

303
01:09:18,500 --> 01:09:21,583
to law school to do my master's before I

304
01:09:21,583 --> 01:09:23,208
knew it, every essay I was writing was

305
01:09:23,208 --> 01:09:23,583
about fishery sector,

306
01:09:23,625 --> 01:09:26,625
whether it was the environmental law

307
01:09:26,625 --> 01:09:28,875
subjects where it made sense. But I did

308
01:09:28,875 --> 01:09:30,375
the same for trade law. I did the same

309
01:09:30,375 --> 01:09:31,833
for investment law, did

310
01:09:31,833 --> 01:09:33,083
the same for European law.

311
01:09:33,083 --> 01:09:35,875
I could always find an angle. And yeah,

312
01:09:35,875 --> 01:09:38,500
it just there was no way back, really, at

313
01:09:38,500 --> 01:09:39,416
that point, I think.

314
01:09:40,416 --> 01:09:42,250
And every time you did those assignments,

315
01:09:42,250 --> 01:09:45,000
every time you focused on a paper on

316
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:46,875
fisheries, whether it be through trade,

317
01:09:46,875 --> 01:09:47,833
whether it be through

318
01:09:47,833 --> 01:09:51,208
access or whatever that might be,

319
01:09:52,541 --> 01:09:54,083
what was your feeling every time you

320
01:09:54,083 --> 01:09:56,166
finish one? Because I know sometimes, you

321
01:09:56,166 --> 01:09:57,958
know, as a student, you you you follow a

322
01:09:57,958 --> 01:09:59,666
certain path and say you do a paper on

323
01:09:59,666 --> 01:10:01,208
something and it may not be the best

324
01:10:01,208 --> 01:10:03,250
interest, you know, and so you may not be

325
01:10:03,250 --> 01:10:04,375
like when you hand in, you're like, OK,

326
01:10:04,375 --> 01:10:05,750
I'm done with that kind of subject.

327
01:10:05,750 --> 01:10:07,000
But obviously, this is something that was

328
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:09,458
continued your passion for it. So every

329
01:10:09,458 --> 01:10:10,958
time you hand in one of those papers,

330
01:10:11,708 --> 01:10:12,583
what was your feeling on that?

331
01:10:12,625 --> 01:10:14,708
Like, were there more questions that came

332
01:10:14,708 --> 01:10:16,791
from what you found? And I could research

333
01:10:16,791 --> 01:10:19,250
this more. Or was it just like, OK, maybe

334
01:10:19,250 --> 01:10:20,333
this is not like trade

335
01:10:20,333 --> 01:10:21,500
is not where I want to go.

336
01:10:21,625 --> 01:10:23,166
Maybe it's somewhere else. Like, what was

337
01:10:23,166 --> 01:10:25,416
that that avenue? What was that feeling?

338
01:10:26,458 --> 01:10:28,875
Yeah, so I made deliberately made a

339
01:10:28,875 --> 01:10:31,000
combination between, you know, like

340
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:33,291
growing up in in Europe, like it's almost

341
01:10:33,291 --> 01:10:35,000
impossible to go into a supermarket and

342
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:38,208
not violate a human

343
01:10:38,208 --> 01:10:38,583
right one way or another.

344
01:10:38,625 --> 01:10:41,375
Like, it's it's really sad. We all know

345
01:10:41,375 --> 01:10:44,375
that the food industry is are just not in

346
01:10:44,375 --> 01:10:46,541
a great shape. Right. And I

347
01:10:46,541 --> 01:10:47,500
knew this about chocolate.

348
01:10:47,500 --> 01:10:48,875
I knew this about coffee. And then I was

349
01:10:48,875 --> 01:10:50,833
learning more about that in the context

350
01:10:50,833 --> 01:10:53,666
of fisheries. And so I deliberately made

351
01:10:53,666 --> 01:10:56,000
that combination of the economic side.

352
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:57,958
So trade and investment on one hand and

353
01:10:57,958 --> 01:11:00,625
then the human rights law environment, a

354
01:11:00,625 --> 01:11:02,041
lot really more the aspirational, like

355
01:11:02,041 --> 01:11:03,125
where you'd like the

356
01:11:03,125 --> 01:11:04,583
sector to be on the other hand.

357
01:11:04,625 --> 01:11:10,916
And so, yeah, I really wrote about where

358
01:11:10,916 --> 01:11:13,416
those different areas came together. And

359
01:11:13,416 --> 01:11:17,625
for instance, what I learned there, I

360
01:11:17,625 --> 01:11:20,708
think it's the topics that focused on

361
01:11:20,708 --> 01:11:23,083
there weren't necessarily exactly the

362
01:11:23,083 --> 01:11:25,833
topics I'm focusing on now because I just

363
01:11:25,833 --> 01:11:28,291
I know a lot more now about what impacts

364
01:11:28,291 --> 01:11:28,583
the sector and what doesn't.

365
01:11:28,625 --> 01:11:31,625
And I did back then. And I really just

366
01:11:31,625 --> 01:11:33,958
had to invent it myself. Obviously, none

367
01:11:33,958 --> 01:11:35,750
of my law professors know much about fish

368
01:11:35,750 --> 01:11:38,833
and and I don't blame them.

369
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:45,000
And the but I did catch on pretty early

370
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:49,291
on that it is as unfair as a lot of the

371
01:11:49,291 --> 01:11:54,208
other food sectors. And for instance,

372
01:11:54,500 --> 01:11:56,333
particularly that whatever the EU is

373
01:11:56,333 --> 01:11:57,583
doing on paper looks great.

374
01:11:57,625 --> 01:12:00,750
Yeah, then if you put in more in the

375
01:12:00,750 --> 01:12:04,750
context of certain impacts, then yeah,

376
01:12:04,750 --> 01:12:08,708
you really start to question about, I

377
01:12:08,708 --> 01:12:12,083
guess, the hypocrisy of a lot of these

378
01:12:12,083 --> 01:12:13,083
systems and how the

379
01:12:13,083 --> 01:12:15,416
states work together on this.

380
01:12:15,625 --> 01:12:19,208
And yeah, like an example, I have an

381
01:12:19,208 --> 01:12:22,458
essay I wrote that I later published was

382
01:12:22,458 --> 01:12:25,000
on the Western Sahara because I was

383
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:27,125
watching a documentary. So that's an area

384
01:12:27,125 --> 01:12:32,041
occupied by Morocco. And in international

385
01:12:32,041 --> 01:12:34,250
law, people have a right to

386
01:12:34,250 --> 01:12:35,583
what we call self determination.

387
01:12:35,625 --> 01:12:41,000
And under that right, you have the right

388
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:42,875
to benefit from your own natural

389
01:12:42,875 --> 01:12:47,041
resources. But so a lot of the fish

390
01:12:47,041 --> 01:12:49,541
that's caught in front of the coast of

391
01:12:49,541 --> 01:12:52,458
the Western Sahara, it is not benefiting

392
01:12:52,458 --> 01:12:54,000
the people from the Western Sahara was

393
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:57,875
actually benefiting either the EU or

394
01:12:57,875 --> 01:13:00,416
Morocco itself because they

395
01:13:00,416 --> 01:13:01,583
were the ones fishing there.

396
01:13:02,041 --> 01:13:04,208
And so I think that's was a very

397
01:13:04,208 --> 01:13:06,916
interesting example of where you have two

398
01:13:06,916 --> 01:13:09,541
formal states and occupation, a natural

399
01:13:09,541 --> 01:13:15,541
resource. And the EU has all these trade

400
01:13:15,541 --> 01:13:17,416
and all these fisheries agreements with

401
01:13:17,416 --> 01:13:19,791
Morocco, where it's like, well, you on

402
01:13:19,791 --> 01:13:21,208
the one hand, you're promoting the right

403
01:13:21,208 --> 01:13:21,583
to self determination.

404
01:13:21,625 --> 01:13:23,708
But on the other hand, you have these

405
01:13:23,708 --> 01:13:27,708
economic treaties that are making it

406
01:13:27,708 --> 01:13:30,666
extremely difficult to really implement

407
01:13:30,666 --> 01:13:33,500
that right to self determination in

408
01:13:33,500 --> 01:13:36,291
practice. So I thought that was a very

409
01:13:36,291 --> 01:13:38,666
interesting example of, I guess, just

410
01:13:38,666 --> 01:13:39,500
politics being politics.

411
01:13:39,625 --> 01:13:43,666
And but if you really look at it,

412
01:13:43,666 --> 01:13:46,166
legally, it's not legal. It's not in line

413
01:13:46,166 --> 01:13:47,500
with what's been agreed upon

414
01:13:47,500 --> 01:13:49,750
internationally. So it did really seem

415
01:13:49,750 --> 01:13:52,958
like a sector where a lot of those

416
01:13:52,958 --> 01:13:57,416
international challenges exist and where

417
01:13:57,416 --> 01:13:59,041
there is just a lot of unfairness and

418
01:13:59,041 --> 01:14:00,541
where there is a lot of work to be done

419
01:14:00,541 --> 01:14:02,833
to fight for people that are in more

420
01:14:02,833 --> 01:14:06,041
vulnerable positions to benefit from

421
01:14:06,041 --> 01:14:07,666
these marine resources

422
01:14:07,666 --> 01:14:08,583
as is their right to.

423
01:14:08,625 --> 01:14:13,708
Yeah, no, absolutely. It's it's there are

424
01:14:13,708 --> 01:14:16,500
a lot of laws out there and and and a lot

425
01:14:16,500 --> 01:14:18,291
of them are there to protect people. A

426
01:14:18,291 --> 01:14:20,083
lot of them are there to allow people to

427
01:14:20,083 --> 01:14:22,875
fish sustainably. And there are a lot of

428
01:14:22,875 --> 01:14:24,666
there, a lot of laws that are out there

429
01:14:24,666 --> 01:14:26,708
that are supposed to prevent from

430
01:14:26,708 --> 01:14:28,166
overfishing, from

431
01:14:28,166 --> 01:14:29,583
exploitation, over exploitation.

432
01:14:29,625 --> 01:14:32,333
A lot of the laws to protect human

433
01:14:32,333 --> 01:14:35,125
rights. There are a lot of laws that

434
01:14:35,125 --> 01:14:37,541
aren't followed and the high seas. And

435
01:14:37,541 --> 01:14:39,625
before we get into that, you know, you

436
01:14:39,625 --> 01:14:40,916
talked about the EU and setting

437
01:14:40,916 --> 01:14:43,000
presidents because you have some pretty

438
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:45,000
good policies when it when it comes to

439
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:47,208
setting them as well. Yes. Yeah.

440
01:14:47,666 --> 01:14:50,458
And but not great on one end and not too

441
01:14:50,458 --> 01:14:52,875
great on the other hand, I guess you ask.

442
01:14:53,333 --> 01:14:56,000
Yeah, that's true. That's so true. But is

443
01:14:56,000 --> 01:14:59,416
there a difference between the are the

444
01:14:59,416 --> 01:15:02,791
laws for land and I guess more

445
01:15:02,791 --> 01:15:05,291
agriculture, you know, farming and so

446
01:15:05,291 --> 01:15:08,958
forth as strict as the laws at sea as

447
01:15:08,958 --> 01:15:10,541
like are there like you said there's some

448
01:15:10,541 --> 01:15:12,916
similarities in certain in certain ways

449
01:15:12,916 --> 01:15:15,083
in terms of their they set the policies.

450
01:15:15,291 --> 01:15:15,875
But are there

451
01:15:15,875 --> 01:15:16,583
differences in land and sea?

452
01:15:16,625 --> 01:15:20,208
When you when you look at the strictness

453
01:15:20,208 --> 01:15:23,125
of it in terms of of ensuring

454
01:15:23,125 --> 01:15:26,291
sustainability, ensuring proper ethics

455
01:15:26,291 --> 01:15:29,125
when it comes to fisheries and so forth?

456
01:15:30,875 --> 01:15:33,791
Short answer would be yes, I definitely

457
01:15:33,791 --> 01:15:37,791
think the laws on land are much more

458
01:15:37,791 --> 01:15:42,250
strict. But and I think that also comes

459
01:15:42,250 --> 01:15:45,583
from, you know, I think we have a lot of laws that are not

460
01:15:45,916 --> 01:15:48,000
you know, I think with a lot of fisheries

461
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:50,916
you it requires collaboration between the

462
01:15:50,916 --> 01:15:53,000
states and that happens in the RFM most

463
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:55,000
for instance, yes, where whatever you do

464
01:15:55,000 --> 01:15:56,916
on your own land you do on your own land.

465
01:15:56,916 --> 01:15:59,000
So that sense, I would say agriculture

466
01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:00,583
and agriculture is very comparable.

467
01:16:00,625 --> 01:16:02,541
If you look at the laws and sometimes

468
01:16:02,541 --> 01:16:04,583
it's even tackled in one single

469
01:16:04,583 --> 01:16:06,875
regulation, where they'll just be like

470
01:16:06,875 --> 01:16:09,375
minor differences that they put in an

471
01:16:09,375 --> 01:16:11,833
annex or something. But there's a lot of

472
01:16:11,833 --> 01:16:14,000
similarity there. But when you are

473
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:15,750
talking about fisheries, you're really

474
01:16:15,750 --> 01:16:19,083
talking more about natural resource law,

475
01:16:19,500 --> 01:16:21,125
it's more comparable to hunting, they

476
01:16:21,125 --> 01:16:22,583
always say with fisheries, right?

477
01:16:22,625 --> 01:16:25,708
Gotcha. So it's really, you know, where

478
01:16:25,708 --> 01:16:29,166
aquaculture looks a lot at the inputs and

479
01:16:29,166 --> 01:16:32,500
the impact on groundwater and all those

480
01:16:32,500 --> 01:16:34,875
things. I think with fisheries, it is

481
01:16:34,875 --> 01:16:39,208
really much more on how and how much you

482
01:16:39,208 --> 01:16:44,083
are allowed to take. But the fact that it

483
01:16:44,083 --> 01:16:45,791
is something that just requires

484
01:16:45,791 --> 01:16:47,708
international collaboration, I think that

485
01:16:47,708 --> 01:16:49,583
makes it a lot more challenging.

486
01:16:49,625 --> 01:16:56,500
And then it's not just a law, there's

487
01:16:56,500 --> 01:16:59,750
also the matter of enforcement and it

488
01:16:59,750 --> 01:17:02,500
happens out at sea with fisheries, you

489
01:17:02,500 --> 01:17:08,458
know, still you can put 50 legal scholars

490
01:17:08,458 --> 01:17:11,208
in one room, but there will still not be

491
01:17:11,208 --> 01:17:15,583
one conclusive answer on which

492
01:17:15,583 --> 01:17:17,291
jurisdictions should be

493
01:17:17,291 --> 01:17:18,583
involved with enforcing.

494
01:17:18,833 --> 01:17:22,333
Enforcing a certain illicit activity at

495
01:17:22,333 --> 01:17:25,000
sea, for instance, so much always claims

496
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:27,208
of, you know, multiple claims of

497
01:17:27,208 --> 01:17:29,083
jurisdiction, and there's not necessarily

498
01:17:29,083 --> 01:17:33,000
always in hierarchy in that. And there

499
01:17:33,000 --> 01:17:36,750
are always certain flag states, sometimes

500
01:17:36,750 --> 01:17:39,041
port states that refuse to do their part.

501
01:17:39,625 --> 01:17:42,916
So that really makes it challenging and

502
01:17:42,916 --> 01:17:44,375
practice. So it's not so much about the

503
01:17:44,375 --> 01:17:49,333
law, per se. It is really also about why

504
01:17:49,333 --> 01:17:52,166
fisheries is just such a different

505
01:17:52,166 --> 01:17:57,291
resource than other food systems and the

506
01:17:57,291 --> 01:17:59,333
international collaboration that it

507
01:17:59,333 --> 01:18:01,583
requires to properly enforce it.

508
01:18:01,625 --> 01:18:03,208
And also the fact it's much more

509
01:18:03,208 --> 01:18:05,791
expensive to send a drone or vessel than

510
01:18:05,791 --> 01:18:09,000
an inspector that goes to a farm. So

511
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:10,625
there's also the issue of capacity,

512
01:18:11,416 --> 01:18:13,083
where, as I said in the beginning, I

513
01:18:13,083 --> 01:18:14,250
don't believe it's always an

514
01:18:14,250 --> 01:18:16,458
unwillingness. I think it can really be

515
01:18:16,458 --> 01:18:17,583
just a lack of capacity.

516
01:18:18,625 --> 01:18:21,166
But it's also politics, you know, if you

517
01:18:21,166 --> 01:18:24,041
are, let's say you're a coastal state and

518
01:18:24,041 --> 01:18:28,041
there's a vessel in your economic

519
01:18:28,041 --> 01:18:30,000
exclusive zone, you know, where you

520
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:32,500
really are the primary state to enforce

521
01:18:32,500 --> 01:18:33,875
the proper management

522
01:18:33,875 --> 01:18:35,250
of your resources there.

523
01:18:36,291 --> 01:18:41,083
And that state, the flag state is a

524
01:18:41,083 --> 01:18:43,708
country that happens to also be giving

525
01:18:43,708 --> 01:18:47,625
you a lot of development aid. What are

526
01:18:47,625 --> 01:18:49,125
you going to do? I mean, your law might

527
01:18:49,125 --> 01:18:52,208
say one thing, but you know, the Ministry

528
01:18:52,208 --> 01:18:53,583
of Fisheries doesn't operate in silo.

529
01:18:53,625 --> 01:18:55,750
It's, it's, it's gonna be really

530
01:18:55,750 --> 01:18:57,958
challenging because they still operate in

531
01:18:57,958 --> 01:19:03,083
reality. So the law is, I think can be a

532
01:19:03,083 --> 01:19:04,291
great tool, but sometimes

533
01:19:04,291 --> 01:19:06,333
the law only goes so far.

534
01:19:06,916 --> 01:19:09,958
It's you're right. That's, that's very,

535
01:19:09,958 --> 01:19:11,875
very true. And what I want to do now is I

536
01:19:11,875 --> 01:19:13,750
want to start just at the basics in terms

537
01:19:13,750 --> 01:19:16,958
of the way the laws have been in the past

538
01:19:16,958 --> 01:19:18,500
and in our in our currently and how

539
01:19:18,500 --> 01:19:20,500
they've changed it to our current system,

540
01:19:20,500 --> 01:19:21,958
like start with the basics and we'll

541
01:19:21,958 --> 01:19:22,583
start to grow on that and be able to do that.

542
01:19:22,750 --> 01:19:24,916
So I want to go through some of those, but I'm going to let you guys look at the

543
01:19:24,916 --> 01:19:25,708
first thing I want to do and then I'll start to start to talk about the first things that I want to do.

544
01:19:25,708 --> 01:19:26,208
And I want to start to think about the first thing I want to do, just to clarify

545
01:19:26,208 --> 01:19:27,750
too, because a lot of the people that

546
01:19:27,750 --> 01:19:29,541
listen to this podcast are from the US

547
01:19:29,541 --> 01:19:31,166
you mentioned you've mentioned a couple

548
01:19:31,166 --> 01:19:32,708
times when you when you talk about

549
01:19:32,708 --> 01:19:35,708
individual sort of management units, but

550
01:19:35,708 --> 01:19:37,458
also, I think individual countries, you

551
01:19:37,458 --> 01:19:38,791
mentioned the state's.

552
01:19:47,625 --> 01:19:49,875
Who knows? You never know. But what do

553
01:19:49,875 --> 01:19:51,541
you mean by states when you say states?

554
01:19:51,541 --> 01:19:53,500
I think that's a lot as a very big law

555
01:19:53,500 --> 01:19:54,458
term in terms when it

556
01:19:54,458 --> 01:19:55,708
comes to a lot of policies.

557
01:19:56,750 --> 01:19:59,250
Yeah as I've

558
01:20:00,125 --> 01:20:02,333
At some point during my work in the

559
01:20:02,333 --> 01:20:03,875
fisheries sector because I wasn't always

560
01:20:03,875 --> 01:20:05,500
so particularly focused on

561
01:20:06,125 --> 01:20:07,083
fisheries law

562
01:20:07,458 --> 01:20:10,500
It I did started calling them countries,

563
01:20:10,500 --> 01:20:12,791
right? But nowadays I always talk about

564
01:20:12,791 --> 01:20:13,583
states and jurisdictions

565
01:20:14,375 --> 01:20:18,000
which are basically the same often but

566
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:20,833
the thing with a state and

567
01:20:20,833 --> 01:20:23,250
We even capitalize this as lawyers like

568
01:20:23,250 --> 01:20:25,000
that's that's how much we love that word

569
01:20:25,750 --> 01:20:28,750
and we basically just mean a country and

570
01:20:28,875 --> 01:20:31,750
You would only say that for a UN member

571
01:20:31,750 --> 01:20:34,041
countries with a recognized country and

572
01:20:34,041 --> 01:20:35,500
jurisdiction in that sense

573
01:20:35,500 --> 01:20:37,458
is sometimes a little bit more

574
01:20:37,583 --> 01:20:39,125
General where you can also

575
01:20:39,125 --> 01:20:41,083
say that about countries that do

576
01:20:41,500 --> 01:20:42,583
or about

577
01:20:43,666 --> 01:20:45,166
jurisdictions that do

578
01:20:45,666 --> 01:20:48,041
govern their fisheries management, but

579
01:20:48,041 --> 01:20:49,041
that aren't necessarily

580
01:20:49,041 --> 01:20:50,416
a recognized UN states

581
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:53,833
Gotcha. Okay, I basically mean a country

582
01:20:53,833 --> 01:20:56,041
and a country is the primary

583
01:20:56,041 --> 01:20:57,333
responsibility for

584
01:20:57,333 --> 01:20:58,625
that fisheries management

585
01:20:59,000 --> 01:20:59,958
So they're the ones

586
01:21:00,541 --> 01:21:01,166
that have

587
01:21:01,916 --> 01:21:04,000
The complete legal system that is

588
01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:04,916
supposed to manage that

589
01:21:05,458 --> 01:21:07,333
Okay, and and a lot of times from my

590
01:21:07,333 --> 01:21:08,541
understanding you can correct me if i'm

591
01:21:08,541 --> 01:21:10,041
wrong a lot of the countries

592
01:21:10,875 --> 01:21:13,333
Well, every country has a border on the

593
01:21:13,333 --> 01:21:15,125
ocean that has a coast on the ocean has

594
01:21:15,125 --> 01:21:16,416
an exclusive economic zone

595
01:21:17,250 --> 01:21:19,416
Pretty much 200 nautical miles off of

596
01:21:19,416 --> 01:21:21,291
their shore when you talk about

597
01:21:21,291 --> 01:21:23,000
jurisdiction from a

598
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:24,333
national point of view

599
01:21:25,250 --> 01:21:27,208
You know you you talk about that 200

600
01:21:27,208 --> 01:21:29,208
nautical mile within that 200 nautical

601
01:21:29,208 --> 01:21:30,125
mile within the country

602
01:21:30,125 --> 01:21:31,625
boundaries that have been set

603
01:21:31,750 --> 01:21:32,750
You know by the UN

604
01:21:32,750 --> 01:21:34,041
internationally agreed upon

605
01:21:34,791 --> 01:21:36,583
The countries or the states I should

606
01:21:36,583 --> 01:21:39,125
mention have jurisdiction over those

607
01:21:39,125 --> 01:21:40,291
waters and how they are

608
01:21:40,291 --> 01:21:42,000
managed they pretty much can do

609
01:21:42,375 --> 01:21:44,458
Whatever not whatever they want, but

610
01:21:44,458 --> 01:21:46,000
pretty much it's it's up to them

611
01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:47,375
It's up to their people to say whatever

612
01:21:47,375 --> 01:21:50,625
they want. So as an example, um, you know

613
01:21:50,875 --> 01:21:53,666
A very popular case is when the japanese

614
01:21:53,666 --> 01:21:55,750
were you know going into the southern

615
01:21:55,750 --> 01:21:57,375
ocean hunting whales

616
01:21:57,750 --> 01:21:59,791
We know the fiasco that that encountered

617
01:21:59,791 --> 01:22:01,625
from that with you know, sea shepherds

618
01:22:01,916 --> 01:22:03,125
Like you can't do this in international

619
01:22:03,125 --> 01:22:05,708
waters and you know the whole thing with

620
01:22:05,708 --> 01:22:07,458
the international whaling commission

621
01:22:08,208 --> 01:22:09,541
You know, it goes back and forth for

622
01:22:09,541 --> 01:22:10,750
decades and then finally

623
01:22:10,750 --> 01:22:11,625
the japanese say, you know

624
01:22:11,625 --> 01:22:13,791
What enough of this hassle we're going

625
01:22:13,791 --> 01:22:15,333
back into our own waters and we're just

626
01:22:15,333 --> 01:22:16,625
going to hunt, you know

627
01:22:16,625 --> 01:22:17,541
Marine mammals within

628
01:22:17,541 --> 01:22:18,750
our own our own waters

629
01:22:19,083 --> 01:22:21,375
Not much internationally people can do in

630
01:22:21,375 --> 01:22:23,041
that respect other than maybe boycott

631
01:22:23,041 --> 01:22:23,875
some of their products if

632
01:22:23,875 --> 01:22:24,833
they really want to do so

633
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:26,416
But there's really not much they can do

634
01:22:26,416 --> 01:22:27,958
from a legal standpoint because they're

635
01:22:27,958 --> 01:22:29,250
within their own rights

636
01:22:29,250 --> 01:22:30,791
within the 200 nautical miles

637
01:22:32,291 --> 01:22:34,333
That so that kind of goes in terms of

638
01:22:34,333 --> 01:22:35,791
like what countries can do

639
01:22:35,833 --> 01:22:37,416
Uh within the law and this is my

640
01:22:37,416 --> 01:22:38,375
understanding of the law

641
01:22:38,375 --> 01:22:39,958
I don't know what the specifics of marine

642
01:22:39,958 --> 01:22:41,541
mammal law within the

643
01:22:41,541 --> 01:22:43,166
japanese 200 nautical miles

644
01:22:43,583 --> 01:22:44,541
But this is some of the

645
01:22:44,541 --> 01:22:45,708
stories that I've that i've seen

646
01:22:46,625 --> 01:22:47,416
but so

647
01:22:48,291 --> 01:22:50,625
A lot of those laws now when it comes to

648
01:22:50,625 --> 01:22:51,750
like north america, you

649
01:22:51,750 --> 01:22:52,916
know, you have you have canada

650
01:22:52,916 --> 01:22:54,291
You have the u.s. You have mexico

651
01:22:54,875 --> 01:22:56,166
They have their their

652
01:22:56,166 --> 01:22:57,875
treaties and they have their you know

653
01:22:57,916 --> 01:22:59,625
North american free trade agreement and

654
01:22:59,625 --> 01:23:01,125
stuff and sometimes fisheries comes into

655
01:23:01,125 --> 01:23:03,458
that and they work fairly well together

656
01:23:04,041 --> 01:23:06,500
As of until recently, uh fairly well

657
01:23:06,500 --> 01:23:08,500
together, you know across the borders

658
01:23:08,875 --> 01:23:10,958
Um when it comes to the eu the eu is

659
01:23:10,958 --> 01:23:12,666
managed as you know, the

660
01:23:12,666 --> 01:23:14,625
member states of the eu

661
01:23:14,791 --> 01:23:16,916
Um, how does that work for?

662
01:23:17,458 --> 01:23:19,500
Countries that have coastal borders onto

663
01:23:19,500 --> 01:23:20,458
the like say the atlantic

664
01:23:20,458 --> 01:23:21,750
ocean or even the metaterrannian

665
01:23:21,750 --> 01:23:25,041
um, do they have the same 200 nautical

666
01:23:25,041 --> 01:23:27,666
miles off the coast and do they manage

667
01:23:27,666 --> 01:23:28,750
like this portugal just

668
01:23:28,750 --> 01:23:30,250
manage portuguese waters?

669
01:23:31,041 --> 01:23:34,500
Uh france, you know french waters germany

670
01:23:34,500 --> 01:23:36,416
like, you know those types of states

671
01:23:36,416 --> 01:23:38,291
Do they just manage their own waters 200

672
01:23:38,291 --> 01:23:40,625
nautical miles off or are there other?

673
01:23:41,250 --> 01:23:42,416
Agreements where those

674
01:23:42,416 --> 01:23:45,000
are managed as the eu

675
01:23:47,291 --> 01:23:48,458
So it's an interesting

676
01:23:48,458 --> 01:23:51,291
question first I wanted to

677
01:23:52,708 --> 01:23:54,500
mention it is

678
01:23:54,875 --> 01:23:56,958
It's not like in your own eec

679
01:23:56,958 --> 01:23:58,625
you can do whatever you want

680
01:23:58,875 --> 01:24:00,875
Because in the case of wailing for

681
01:24:00,875 --> 01:24:03,208
instance, there is such a thing as the uh

682
01:24:03,208 --> 01:24:05,166
as a treaty on wailing

683
01:24:05,166 --> 01:24:06,291
I forget the formal

684
01:24:06,291 --> 01:24:08,000
name, but that's from like

685
01:24:08,250 --> 01:24:10,375
1946 it's actually the first

686
01:24:10,958 --> 01:24:13,333
international law of the sea treaty that

687
01:24:13,333 --> 01:24:15,583
we had uh, so there are

688
01:24:16,250 --> 01:24:16,500
certain

689
01:24:17,375 --> 01:24:19,250
Areas in which you can't just do whatever

690
01:24:19,250 --> 01:24:21,958
you want because hey, it's it's my eec.

691
01:24:21,958 --> 01:24:23,458
So it's my jurisdiction

692
01:24:24,083 --> 01:24:27,000
But of course, it's so much harder

693
01:24:27,500 --> 01:24:28,000
to

694
01:24:28,333 --> 01:24:30,791
enforce because there's not

695
01:24:30,791 --> 01:24:34,083
any other countries that are

696
01:24:34,083 --> 01:24:37,041
That have any jurisdiction. So in

697
01:24:37,041 --> 01:24:40,083
international law there is this principle

698
01:24:40,791 --> 01:24:42,500
Uh, which I don't know if it's ever

699
01:24:42,500 --> 01:24:44,916
really been I guess it's been relied on

700
01:24:44,916 --> 01:24:46,750
for things like a un piece

701
01:24:47,208 --> 01:24:49,291
Mission, uh, you know with like the blue

702
01:24:49,291 --> 01:24:51,583
helmets where it's like none of the

703
01:24:51,583 --> 01:24:52,625
states necessarily had

704
01:24:53,125 --> 01:24:55,166
Uh any jurisdiction, but it was seen as

705
01:24:55,166 --> 01:24:57,791
such an issue of international importance

706
01:24:58,333 --> 01:25:00,250
That's you know under but then we're

707
01:25:00,250 --> 01:25:01,083
talking much more about

708
01:25:01,083 --> 01:25:03,708
diplomacy than yes law per se

709
01:25:04,250 --> 01:25:05,708
um, but just a minor

710
01:25:05,708 --> 01:25:07,541
correction there with the

711
01:25:08,333 --> 01:25:09,708
when it comes to the

712
01:25:09,708 --> 01:25:11,291
determination of your

713
01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:16,000
economic exclusive zone we are um

714
01:25:17,041 --> 01:25:19,541
indeed talking about 200 nautical miles

715
01:25:19,541 --> 01:25:22,750
from uh from the coast but the

716
01:25:23,208 --> 01:25:26,083
uh and in some cases if you're lucky that

717
01:25:26,083 --> 01:25:27,250
just means there's you

718
01:25:27,250 --> 01:25:28,500
know, like in a lot of

719
01:25:29,208 --> 01:25:30,875
Islands for instance, that just means

720
01:25:30,875 --> 01:25:32,958
there's there's a beautiful circle around

721
01:25:32,958 --> 01:25:34,958
your country and you can use that

722
01:25:35,666 --> 01:25:36,666
but in

723
01:25:37,208 --> 01:25:39,208
Many instances it will

724
01:25:39,208 --> 01:25:41,000
clash with someone else's easy

725
01:25:41,458 --> 01:25:43,625
So then the general rule would be that

726
01:25:43,625 --> 01:25:44,625
it's somewhere in the middle

727
01:25:44,791 --> 01:25:46,250
but it can deviate

728
01:25:46,250 --> 01:25:47,916
that's really up to the

729
01:25:48,500 --> 01:25:50,416
Two countries to decide and generally

730
01:25:50,416 --> 01:25:52,500
there won't be any issues there unless

731
01:25:52,500 --> 01:25:53,833
maybe there's any oil

732
01:25:53,833 --> 01:25:55,291
or any resources found

733
01:25:55,458 --> 01:25:57,541
Like exactly between those two then

734
01:25:57,541 --> 01:25:59,208
that's when the trouble just look

735
01:25:59,208 --> 01:26:00,791
contagious. Yeah, exactly

736
01:26:01,208 --> 01:26:02,541
um, but there's even

737
01:26:02,541 --> 01:26:03,625
been good examples of

738
01:26:04,083 --> 01:26:05,875
That where our countries have come to

739
01:26:05,875 --> 01:26:07,625
good agreements and really using the

740
01:26:07,625 --> 01:26:08,750
natural resources to

741
01:26:08,750 --> 01:26:10,000
benefit both countries

742
01:26:10,791 --> 01:26:15,458
so, uh the European Union specifically it

743
01:26:15,458 --> 01:26:17,541
will then basically depend on

744
01:26:18,333 --> 01:26:20,291
uh the country and where they're located

745
01:26:20,708 --> 01:26:23,458
Uh how big their easy is so the

746
01:26:23,458 --> 01:26:25,958
Netherlands for instance, uh will clash

747
01:26:25,958 --> 01:26:27,541
with the the UK at some point

748
01:26:27,666 --> 01:26:30,666
um, so they that's a really important

749
01:26:31,833 --> 01:26:33,000
collaborative partner for

750
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:35,708
the Netherlands to have in um

751
01:26:35,833 --> 01:26:40,000
uh some I uh some countries in Europe

752
01:26:40,000 --> 01:26:42,875
still have islands so you have the

753
01:26:42,875 --> 01:26:44,625
because you know, it's Europe so all

754
01:26:45,208 --> 01:26:47,000
At least in western Europe all former

755
01:26:47,000 --> 01:26:49,875
colonial powers and some of these islands

756
01:26:49,875 --> 01:26:51,583
were never really transferred back

757
01:26:51,583 --> 01:26:52,375
So they're still part

758
01:26:52,375 --> 01:26:53,875
of the European Union

759
01:26:54,541 --> 01:26:56,458
area, so an example would be

760
01:26:56,458 --> 01:26:58,208
well you have the Azores in

761
01:26:58,875 --> 01:27:00,041
Portugal which is

762
01:27:00,833 --> 01:27:02,958
You'd have then the EEC of Portugal then

763
01:27:02,958 --> 01:27:05,250
a bit of nothing and then again the EEC

764
01:27:05,250 --> 01:27:06,958
of Portugal around the Azores islands

765
01:27:07,500 --> 01:27:10,541
But you also have French Guiana in Latin

766
01:27:10,541 --> 01:27:13,541
America, which is officially an overseas

767
01:27:14,250 --> 01:27:16,208
European territory, even though it's in

768
01:27:16,208 --> 01:27:17,750
Latin America. There's also

769
01:27:17,750 --> 01:27:19,041
some islands in the Caribbean

770
01:27:20,500 --> 01:27:22,541
and the in Europe

771
01:27:22,541 --> 01:27:25,333
there's certain areas where

772
01:27:25,916 --> 01:27:27,625
European countries have

773
01:27:28,833 --> 01:27:31,416
Given their power to the European Union

774
01:27:31,416 --> 01:27:33,125
meaning that it's not the individual

775
01:27:33,125 --> 01:27:35,000
countries that dictate the rules there

776
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:37,333
It's at the European Union level and

777
01:27:37,333 --> 01:27:39,791
fisheries for instance, uh, as well as

778
01:27:39,791 --> 01:27:41,708
trade is an example of that

779
01:27:41,750 --> 01:27:43,666
So in Europe, you have something called

780
01:27:43,666 --> 01:27:45,500
the common fisheries policy

781
01:27:46,083 --> 01:27:50,041
and that is the same for any of the EU

782
01:27:50,041 --> 01:27:53,583
member states and it will also apply to

783
01:27:54,333 --> 01:27:56,958
uh French Guiana for instance, and I've

784
01:27:56,958 --> 01:27:59,708
had I have heard challenges

785
01:28:00,250 --> 01:28:02,250
sometimes with managing that because you

786
01:28:02,250 --> 01:28:03,083
know their border countries

787
01:28:03,083 --> 01:28:05,750
are not part of the EU and

788
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:06,666
um

789
01:28:06,791 --> 01:28:09,208
But whenever there needs to be any sort

790
01:28:09,208 --> 01:28:11,375
of international collaboration, they

791
01:28:11,375 --> 01:28:12,625
would need to call in France

792
01:28:13,125 --> 01:28:13,500
to

793
01:28:14,083 --> 01:28:15,625
Because officially that's part of it, but

794
01:28:15,625 --> 01:28:17,958
France is like so far from this country.

795
01:28:17,958 --> 01:28:18,958
It's not really at the top

796
01:28:19,458 --> 01:28:21,541
uh top of their priorities. So it's

797
01:28:21,541 --> 01:28:22,583
really quite a

798
01:28:22,583 --> 01:28:25,041
complicated system, uh with the

799
01:28:25,375 --> 01:28:28,000
EU sometimes bringing in all the

800
01:28:28,000 --> 01:28:30,083
different EECs that are technically

801
01:28:30,083 --> 01:28:32,125
managed under the common fisheries policy

802
01:28:32,708 --> 01:28:34,750
Yeah, I can imagine I can imagine

803
01:28:35,208 --> 01:28:37,416
Okay. So now we got that settled and well

804
01:28:37,416 --> 01:28:39,166
settled I quote unquote settled

805
01:28:39,500 --> 01:28:41,750
Um, let's talk about sort of the the laws

806
01:28:41,750 --> 01:28:43,125
right now overall like

807
01:28:43,125 --> 01:28:44,291
you know worldwide obviously

808
01:28:44,416 --> 01:28:46,083
They're very different in different parts

809
01:28:46,083 --> 01:28:47,541
of the world. Um, but let's

810
01:28:47,541 --> 01:28:49,208
talk about the like up to now

811
01:28:49,750 --> 01:28:51,208
Um, you know it used to be where you

812
01:28:51,208 --> 01:28:52,333
could just fish wherever you want

813
01:28:52,333 --> 01:28:54,041
whenever you want way back, you know a

814
01:28:54,041 --> 01:28:55,041
couple hundred years ago

815
01:28:55,041 --> 01:28:56,416
You could do that, you know, there

816
01:28:56,416 --> 01:28:58,333
weren't as many fishing fleets weren't as

817
01:28:58,333 --> 01:28:59,333
efficient in catching

818
01:28:59,583 --> 01:29:01,208
You know, there's there's talk about

819
01:29:01,208 --> 01:29:02,875
times where you used to just throw a

820
01:29:02,875 --> 01:29:04,083
bucket in the north atlantic

821
01:29:04,083 --> 01:29:05,750
And you'd be able to catch cod didn't

822
01:29:05,750 --> 01:29:08,000
fill it up within minutes if not seconds

823
01:29:08,958 --> 01:29:11,875
That's obviously changed from now on um,

824
01:29:12,125 --> 01:29:14,375
and and from the 90s on especially with

825
01:29:14,375 --> 01:29:15,458
the north atlantic and the cod

826
01:29:16,333 --> 01:29:18,708
Where are we right now with with

827
01:29:18,708 --> 01:29:21,000
fisheries laws? Like if you look at

828
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:22,958
fisheries laws from your perspective

829
01:29:23,291 --> 01:29:25,583
Overall worldwide, would you say they are

830
01:29:25,583 --> 01:29:28,583
adequate? They are good or they just in

831
01:29:28,583 --> 01:29:30,083
some cases they just suck

832
01:29:30,458 --> 01:29:32,416
It's a very challenging question. It's a

833
01:29:32,416 --> 01:29:34,708
very interesting question. Um, but

834
01:29:35,500 --> 01:29:38,833
I and it is something i'm researching but

835
01:29:38,833 --> 01:29:41,083
considering that you know for a lot of

836
01:29:41,083 --> 01:29:42,500
these fisheries laws or

837
01:29:42,708 --> 01:29:44,791
Policies i will be looking at it from an

838
01:29:44,791 --> 01:29:46,000
outsider perspective. So

839
01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:48,000
I do need to be aware of

840
01:29:48,416 --> 01:29:51,958
I guess my eurocentric views. Um before

841
01:29:51,958 --> 01:29:53,000
passing any judgment

842
01:29:53,833 --> 01:29:56,791
I know that it can be very hard to

843
01:29:56,791 --> 01:29:58,583
predict sometimes and I think there's a

844
01:29:58,583 --> 01:30:01,083
lot of assumptions sometimes around

845
01:30:01,916 --> 01:30:05,000
the global south doing a worse job at

846
01:30:05,000 --> 01:30:06,833
this and I definitely have

847
01:30:06,833 --> 01:30:08,208
not found that to be true

848
01:30:08,625 --> 01:30:10,541
right, I think um

849
01:30:11,125 --> 01:30:12,583
I don't necessarily focus

850
01:30:13,916 --> 01:30:15,541
so much on

851
01:30:16,458 --> 01:30:18,583
Evaluating whether a

852
01:30:18,583 --> 01:30:20,708
fisheries law is adequate. Yes or no

853
01:30:21,375 --> 01:30:23,500
simply because I

854
01:30:25,208 --> 01:30:27,916
I it's just really like I said, I think

855
01:30:27,916 --> 01:30:29,916
to really fully understand the law

856
01:30:30,166 --> 01:30:31,583
it's also just the

857
01:30:32,166 --> 01:30:34,625
uh legal context and kind of the culture

858
01:30:34,625 --> 01:30:36,250
like for instance if you look at

859
01:30:36,250 --> 01:30:37,291
fisheries transparency

860
01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:39,541
There will be in some

861
01:30:39,541 --> 01:30:40,958
countries. It's absolutely

862
01:30:41,666 --> 01:30:43,833
Not a problem to be super transparent

863
01:30:43,833 --> 01:30:46,375
about whatever is going on in

864
01:30:46,958 --> 01:30:48,833
Your you know the allocation of fisheries

865
01:30:48,833 --> 01:30:51,750
authorizations catch data all these

866
01:30:51,750 --> 01:30:53,291
different fisheries data elements

867
01:30:54,000 --> 01:30:55,458
There's absolutely no problem because

868
01:30:55,458 --> 01:30:56,125
these are countries

869
01:30:56,125 --> 01:30:57,416
that generally have a very

870
01:30:58,416 --> 01:31:00,125
long-standing legal tradition of

871
01:31:00,125 --> 01:31:02,541
transparency where they view natural

872
01:31:02,541 --> 01:31:05,208
resources as a common good and the people

873
01:31:05,208 --> 01:31:07,666
have a right to know that which great

874
01:31:08,166 --> 01:31:10,500
um, but there's a lot of countries that

875
01:31:10,500 --> 01:31:12,250
don't necessarily have this tradition and

876
01:31:12,250 --> 01:31:13,125
kind of forcing that

877
01:31:13,125 --> 01:31:14,083
same approach on them

878
01:31:14,541 --> 01:31:16,500
Is just not going to work and it's going

879
01:31:16,500 --> 01:31:18,125
to make people maybe very uncomfortable

880
01:31:18,125 --> 01:31:20,625
and yeah, um, so I think

881
01:31:21,583 --> 01:31:23,458
I wouldn't be able to

882
01:31:23,458 --> 01:31:25,125
speak intelligently to

883
01:31:25,500 --> 01:31:27,125
You know, what's what are the good

884
01:31:27,125 --> 01:31:28,833
fisheries policies and you know, the

885
01:31:28,833 --> 01:31:30,333
world is is a big place

886
01:31:30,625 --> 01:31:32,916
it's also not my intent necessarily to

887
01:31:32,916 --> 01:31:34,416
pass judgment on

888
01:31:34,416 --> 01:31:36,750
individual fisheries policies or

889
01:31:37,041 --> 01:31:38,875
uh legislation what

890
01:31:38,875 --> 01:31:40,583
i'm more interested in is

891
01:31:40,875 --> 01:31:43,666
Having, you know on a global level with

892
01:31:43,666 --> 01:31:44,958
the seafood sector

893
01:31:44,958 --> 01:31:46,375
where there's a lot of NGOs

894
01:31:46,958 --> 01:31:50,541
Yeah, having them focus more on the roles

895
01:31:50,541 --> 01:31:52,125
that states have whether

896
01:31:52,125 --> 01:31:53,458
they're doing a good job now

897
01:31:53,833 --> 01:31:56,833
or not, but to really focus on

898
01:31:57,666 --> 01:31:59,208
Keeping states accountable

899
01:31:59,666 --> 01:32:01,416
because they do have

900
01:32:02,000 --> 01:32:03,750
Responsibility to properly manage their

901
01:32:03,750 --> 01:32:07,291
response their fisheries resources under

902
01:32:07,750 --> 01:32:10,208
uh, the international law of the sea so

903
01:32:10,208 --> 01:32:13,416
there is that obligation and

904
01:32:14,166 --> 01:32:16,000
uh, I would really like to

905
01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:18,875
see that the the sector and the

906
01:32:20,416 --> 01:32:22,500
Different NGOs working in that sector

907
01:32:22,500 --> 01:32:25,666
focus much more on that and uh,

908
01:32:25,750 --> 01:32:27,041
Because whether they're

909
01:32:27,041 --> 01:32:28,333
already doing a good job

910
01:32:28,625 --> 01:32:30,916
Or not so much or maybe they

911
01:32:30,916 --> 01:32:32,125
just don't know where to start

912
01:32:33,291 --> 01:32:35,333
I think a lot of focus should go on

913
01:32:35,333 --> 01:32:37,125
building that capacity and

914
01:32:37,125 --> 01:32:39,333
creating more awareness, uh on

915
01:32:40,250 --> 01:32:42,666
What is going on there? Why is it failing

916
01:32:42,666 --> 01:32:45,166
and also being a little bit more tangible

917
01:32:45,166 --> 01:32:47,000
about that and not just like

918
01:32:47,291 --> 01:32:49,583
a state is doing a bad job and their

919
01:32:49,583 --> 01:32:51,041
fisheries management system is

920
01:32:51,041 --> 01:32:52,458
inadequate, but more like

921
01:32:53,208 --> 01:32:53,791
really

922
01:32:54,708 --> 01:32:57,625
Tangibly think about what are systems?

923
01:32:58,333 --> 01:33:00,833
that you know certain legislation can

924
01:33:00,833 --> 01:33:03,000
keep in place that are really enabling

925
01:33:03,833 --> 01:33:06,166
For this type of illicit activity to take

926
01:33:06,166 --> 01:33:08,458
place and for an example

927
01:33:08,458 --> 01:33:10,208
could be for instance. Okay. How

928
01:33:10,625 --> 01:33:11,750
does a country?

929
01:33:12,958 --> 01:33:15,291
You know capture information around the

930
01:33:15,291 --> 01:33:17,875
ultimate beneficial owner of a vessel

931
01:33:19,125 --> 01:33:21,625
And uh, how does it share that

932
01:33:21,625 --> 01:33:22,791
information with stakeholders?

933
01:33:23,916 --> 01:33:25,708
If the state doesn't have enough

934
01:33:25,708 --> 01:33:28,416
capacity, how is it relying on other

935
01:33:28,416 --> 01:33:29,541
could be public

936
01:33:29,541 --> 01:33:31,000
international institutions or?

937
01:33:31,583 --> 01:33:36,750
um NGOs to increase that capacity and

938
01:33:37,583 --> 01:33:39,875
So I think there's a lot of work to be

939
01:33:39,875 --> 01:33:42,583
done in focusing on what states are doing

940
01:33:43,041 --> 01:33:45,000
But i'd like to approach that not so much

941
01:33:45,000 --> 01:33:47,125
from uh, let's categorize it

942
01:33:47,125 --> 01:33:49,208
and say this good bad, uh, worst

943
01:33:49,583 --> 01:33:52,583
um, but more from okay, what

944
01:33:53,208 --> 01:33:54,666
Should be done. What is important? What

945
01:33:54,666 --> 01:33:57,375
are the risks? What should be considered

946
01:33:57,375 --> 01:33:59,166
for these systems and

947
01:33:59,916 --> 01:33:59,958
um

948
01:34:01,125 --> 01:34:03,958
Focus a lot more on pushing states to do

949
01:34:03,958 --> 01:34:04,875
the right thing there

950
01:34:06,250 --> 01:34:07,875
That's a that's an interesting concept

951
01:34:07,875 --> 01:34:10,291
right is to understand what's you know,

952
01:34:10,291 --> 01:34:11,750
what's happening. What's the risks?

953
01:34:12,916 --> 01:34:14,208
There are so many states it's really

954
01:34:14,208 --> 01:34:16,375
difficult to try and blanket

955
01:34:16,958 --> 01:34:19,041
Legislation for the world obviously the

956
01:34:19,041 --> 01:34:20,291
question I asked before was a little

957
01:34:20,291 --> 01:34:21,875
loaded because it was like hey, how's

958
01:34:21,875 --> 01:34:23,083
every how's all the fishing

959
01:34:23,375 --> 01:34:25,208
Legislation around the world working

960
01:34:25,208 --> 01:34:26,708
obviously that's very different different

961
01:34:26,708 --> 01:34:27,333
cultures different

962
01:34:27,333 --> 01:34:28,041
places around the world

963
01:34:28,500 --> 01:34:29,666
Everything is so unique

964
01:34:30,583 --> 01:34:33,500
When we we look at specific legislation

965
01:34:33,500 --> 01:34:35,958
and I assume that's what you you're doing

966
01:34:35,958 --> 01:34:36,458
and you're going to

967
01:34:36,458 --> 01:34:37,666
talk about for you know

968
01:34:37,666 --> 01:34:40,375
your consultant any day

969
01:34:40,708 --> 01:34:42,833
And and to look at specific legislation

970
01:34:42,833 --> 01:34:44,875
and to analyze that and say here's the

971
01:34:44,875 --> 01:34:45,791
here this this the

972
01:34:45,791 --> 01:34:47,000
good part of legislation

973
01:34:47,041 --> 01:34:47,791
What's working?

974
01:34:47,791 --> 01:34:49,500
Here's what's not working?

975
01:34:50,166 --> 01:34:51,666
and then to push that

976
01:34:51,666 --> 01:34:54,833
state to you know repair or to

977
01:34:55,375 --> 01:34:55,750
um

978
01:34:56,708 --> 01:34:59,041
You know build a stronger legislation to

979
01:34:59,041 --> 01:35:01,083
help not only the fishing community, but

980
01:35:01,083 --> 01:35:02,041
also the seafood sector

981
01:35:02,041 --> 01:35:03,583
within that within that state

982
01:35:04,875 --> 01:35:07,416
That is complex in itself to to be able

983
01:35:07,416 --> 01:35:09,375
to do that because some states may not be

984
01:35:09,750 --> 01:35:11,791
May not be willing to make those changes

985
01:35:12,250 --> 01:35:14,791
When you do an analysis on a on a policy

986
01:35:14,791 --> 01:35:16,041
like that or on a on

987
01:35:16,041 --> 01:35:17,541
a piece of legislation

988
01:35:18,500 --> 01:35:19,583
What's your approach?

989
01:35:20,000 --> 01:35:21,791
When you start to to look at that

990
01:35:21,791 --> 01:35:23,666
understanding that some states may not

991
01:35:23,666 --> 01:35:24,500
want to change too much

992
01:35:24,500 --> 01:35:25,375
because we know humans

993
01:35:25,458 --> 01:35:28,625
We don't like change, right? Yes. No, and

994
01:35:28,625 --> 01:35:30,000
it's like I said, it's

995
01:35:30,000 --> 01:35:32,583
also very political and it's

996
01:35:33,000 --> 01:35:35,583
it's not just a bunch of rules right and

997
01:35:36,166 --> 01:35:38,875
But what I love and what I have very

998
01:35:38,875 --> 01:35:41,083
particularly chosen is to be in the role

999
01:35:41,083 --> 01:35:42,916
of a researcher and an advisor

1000
01:35:43,500 --> 01:35:46,375
I am not necessarily pushing an agenda.

1001
01:35:46,375 --> 01:35:48,416
Sure. Like I said, I'm pushing for

1002
01:35:48,416 --> 01:35:51,250
attention more on certain elements

1003
01:35:51,833 --> 01:35:53,000
and uh

1004
01:35:53,208 --> 01:35:55,583
But not so much saying oh, this is

1005
01:35:55,583 --> 01:35:56,625
exactly the level of

1006
01:35:56,625 --> 01:35:58,500
transparency that a state should have

1007
01:35:59,375 --> 01:36:01,125
Because that's not my field of expertise

1008
01:36:01,125 --> 01:36:03,416
that there are other NGOs that are, you

1009
01:36:03,416 --> 01:36:05,541
know doing great job at researching that

1010
01:36:06,083 --> 01:36:07,416
uh, so what I

1011
01:36:08,500 --> 01:36:09,708
do is

1012
01:36:10,166 --> 01:36:12,500
Now particularly one thing that I do

1013
01:36:12,500 --> 01:36:13,666
really believe in is

1014
01:36:13,666 --> 01:36:14,833
fisheries transparency

1015
01:36:15,583 --> 01:36:17,500
and when we say

1016
01:36:17,833 --> 01:36:19,708
fisheries transparency at

1017
01:36:19,708 --> 01:36:21,750
least when when I say it, um

1018
01:36:22,541 --> 01:36:23,041
I

1019
01:36:23,916 --> 01:36:25,791
Think you know that having that public

1020
01:36:25,791 --> 01:36:26,500
availability of

1021
01:36:26,500 --> 01:36:28,791
information is crucial. Um

1022
01:36:29,500 --> 01:36:31,083
But I don't necessarily

1023
01:36:31,666 --> 01:36:32,458
uh

1024
01:36:32,708 --> 01:36:34,666
Think that you know, we should encourage

1025
01:36:34,666 --> 01:36:36,666
states to just put any

1026
01:36:36,666 --> 01:36:38,583
fisheries data out there

1027
01:36:38,875 --> 01:36:41,041
I think we need to really emphasize

1028
01:36:41,458 --> 01:36:42,916
um and consider, okay,

1029
01:36:42,916 --> 01:36:44,833
what type of fisheries data

1030
01:36:45,458 --> 01:36:45,833
is

1031
01:36:46,416 --> 01:36:46,625
valuable

1032
01:36:47,458 --> 01:36:50,000
For so what are NGOs interested in? So

1033
01:36:50,000 --> 01:36:52,000
look at all these fisheries data elements

1034
01:36:52,000 --> 01:36:54,291
which ones do the NGOs even care about?

1035
01:36:55,250 --> 01:36:56,916
Um, and which ones can they actually

1036
01:36:56,916 --> 01:36:59,416
translate into meaningful impact like for

1037
01:36:59,416 --> 01:37:00,875
instance that increased capacity and

1038
01:37:00,875 --> 01:37:02,416
there are a number of

1039
01:37:02,958 --> 01:37:03,541
uh

1040
01:37:03,791 --> 01:37:05,666
civil society organizations that are

1041
01:37:05,666 --> 01:37:07,125
really doing great job like

1042
01:37:07,583 --> 01:37:09,583
Think you have like tmt you have of

1043
01:37:09,583 --> 01:37:11,583
course global fishing watch oceana is

1044
01:37:11,583 --> 01:37:13,000
really pushing for that transparency

1045
01:37:13,791 --> 01:37:15,541
Pew published a lot of great research.

1046
01:37:15,541 --> 01:37:17,666
So, you know, there are definitely those

1047
01:37:17,666 --> 01:37:18,666
groups that I really

1048
01:37:18,666 --> 01:37:20,333
think have an amazingly

1049
01:37:21,291 --> 01:37:24,375
great focus and um

1050
01:37:26,083 --> 01:37:27,500
But I don't and

1051
01:37:28,166 --> 01:37:30,333
Whatever they could use I think there

1052
01:37:30,333 --> 01:37:32,375
should be a conversation around. Okay.

1053
01:37:32,375 --> 01:37:33,750
Can that type of

1054
01:37:33,750 --> 01:37:35,791
fisheries data be shared?

1055
01:37:36,250 --> 01:37:37,041
with them

1056
01:37:37,666 --> 01:37:39,500
but there's also the

1057
01:37:39,541 --> 01:37:40,416
um

1058
01:37:40,666 --> 01:37:41,666
other side

1059
01:37:42,166 --> 01:37:44,750
of the equation which is concerns about

1060
01:37:45,291 --> 01:37:47,583
privacy or proprietary information

1061
01:37:48,166 --> 01:37:51,041
And that is something that i'm focusing

1062
01:37:51,041 --> 01:37:52,541
on particularly right now

1063
01:37:53,041 --> 01:37:55,375
where it is um

1064
01:37:55,708 --> 01:37:57,750
And this is very common in international

1065
01:37:57,750 --> 01:37:59,458
law where you have maybe an

1066
01:37:59,458 --> 01:38:01,125
obligation or kind of a goal

1067
01:38:01,625 --> 01:38:04,416
um on the one hand, but on the other

1068
01:38:04,416 --> 01:38:06,625
hand, you do have rights of individuals

1069
01:38:07,375 --> 01:38:09,083
And you need to find a proper balance

1070
01:38:09,083 --> 01:38:11,291
there. So you can just there are

1071
01:38:12,333 --> 01:38:14,541
certain data elements linked to fisheries

1072
01:38:14,541 --> 01:38:15,916
that are also linked to individuals

1073
01:38:15,916 --> 01:38:18,416
because people work on vessels people own

1074
01:38:18,416 --> 01:38:20,666
vessels people benefit from

1075
01:38:21,125 --> 01:38:23,083
uh the vessel activity so

1076
01:38:23,625 --> 01:38:27,208
There there is a link there between uh,

1077
01:38:27,208 --> 01:38:28,916
intellectual property law or personal

1078
01:38:28,916 --> 01:38:30,291
data protection law, you

1079
01:38:30,291 --> 01:38:31,416
know the right to privacy

1080
01:38:32,000 --> 01:38:33,583
And what i'm doing now

1081
01:38:33,583 --> 01:38:36,291
specifically is researching. Um

1082
01:38:36,791 --> 01:38:37,708
Okay, where?

1083
01:38:39,083 --> 01:38:40,291
uh, you know i'm

1084
01:38:40,291 --> 01:38:41,458
currently looking at a case

1085
01:38:42,291 --> 01:38:44,291
30 case studies of different countries

1086
01:38:44,291 --> 01:38:46,541
where i'm looking at all of the

1087
01:38:46,541 --> 01:38:48,250
protections that could

1088
01:38:48,250 --> 01:38:50,875
possibly exist for fisheries data

1089
01:38:51,541 --> 01:38:54,500
so, uh first is uh

1090
01:38:54,916 --> 01:38:56,000
Looking at okay. Is

1091
01:38:56,000 --> 01:38:57,083
there any way you can?

1092
01:38:58,041 --> 01:38:58,083
um

1093
01:38:59,333 --> 01:39:02,125
Under this jurisdiction should uh certain

1094
01:39:02,125 --> 01:39:04,958
data elements be protected and um

1095
01:39:05,625 --> 01:39:08,000
Or

1096
01:39:08,500 --> 01:39:09,958
Because you know, it might violate the

1097
01:39:09,958 --> 01:39:11,958
right privacy of a person that's on board

1098
01:39:11,958 --> 01:39:14,541
of the vessel or it might uh, you know

1099
01:39:14,541 --> 01:39:16,458
Give away a trade secret because where

1100
01:39:16,458 --> 01:39:18,041
they're fishing how they're fishing etc

1101
01:39:18,041 --> 01:39:19,166
is something that's

1102
01:39:19,166 --> 01:39:20,583
benefiting their company, etc

1103
01:39:21,458 --> 01:39:23,208
Where type of protections you find really

1104
01:39:23,208 --> 01:39:25,291
depends on the jurisdiction the legal

1105
01:39:25,291 --> 01:39:27,833
culture just uh, uh a lot of different

1106
01:39:27,833 --> 01:39:28,916
elements there. It's

1107
01:39:28,958 --> 01:39:29,416
um

1108
01:39:29,833 --> 01:39:31,708
But basically the first question there is

1109
01:39:31,708 --> 01:39:33,208
do these barriers exist?

1110
01:39:33,833 --> 01:39:37,000
because a lot of countries sometimes keep

1111
01:39:37,000 --> 01:39:38,083
the door close to

1112
01:39:38,083 --> 01:39:39,791
certain ngo's because they say

1113
01:39:40,083 --> 01:39:42,958
These barriers exist and sometimes ngo's

1114
01:39:42,958 --> 01:39:45,166
don't quite believe that and they feel

1115
01:39:45,166 --> 01:39:45,916
they're just unwilling

1116
01:39:45,916 --> 01:39:47,208
to collaborate with them

1117
01:39:47,625 --> 01:39:49,541
So my first approach is really just to

1118
01:39:49,541 --> 01:39:51,208
see okay. Is that assumption of the

1119
01:39:51,208 --> 01:39:52,208
unwillingness and true?

1120
01:39:53,041 --> 01:39:56,208
Uh, because if it is true then okay

1121
01:39:56,666 --> 01:39:57,291
um

1122
01:39:57,875 --> 01:39:59,500
There then you need

1123
01:39:59,500 --> 01:40:00,458
to find a way, you know

1124
01:40:00,458 --> 01:40:02,166
If if that is really the barrier that

1125
01:40:02,166 --> 01:40:02,875
they see you need to

1126
01:40:02,875 --> 01:40:04,000
find a way to work around it

1127
01:40:04,166 --> 01:40:04,458
Yes

1128
01:40:04,458 --> 01:40:06,750
And very often in the law there are all

1129
01:40:06,750 --> 01:40:08,375
these exceptions that are foreseen or

1130
01:40:08,375 --> 01:40:10,041
things you can do to mitigate the risk

1131
01:40:10,500 --> 01:40:13,083
Around you know data being leaked or

1132
01:40:13,083 --> 01:40:14,208
being made public etc

1133
01:40:14,333 --> 01:40:15,958
So it's definitely not

1134
01:40:15,958 --> 01:40:18,125
that if you know, you find one

1135
01:40:18,916 --> 01:40:20,458
Challenge somewhere that there's there's

1136
01:40:20,458 --> 01:40:23,458
no way to still achieve a higher level of

1137
01:40:23,458 --> 01:40:24,166
fisheries transparency

1138
01:40:24,583 --> 01:40:26,083
But I think we just need to be very

1139
01:40:26,083 --> 01:40:28,208
diligent about okay. What data elements

1140
01:40:28,208 --> 01:40:29,625
are we talking about? Is it valuable?

1141
01:40:30,166 --> 01:40:31,041
Okay for these ones

1142
01:40:31,041 --> 01:40:32,291
where we know it is valuable

1143
01:40:32,583 --> 01:40:34,291
What are the legal barriers that may

1144
01:40:34,291 --> 01:40:35,416
exist and they don't

1145
01:40:35,416 --> 01:40:36,500
come from fisheries law?

1146
01:40:36,583 --> 01:40:37,583
They come from all these

1147
01:40:37,583 --> 01:40:39,625
other fields of private law that

1148
01:40:39,875 --> 01:40:41,208
Everyone kind of fails to consider

1149
01:40:41,208 --> 01:40:43,333
because who knows anything about personal

1150
01:40:43,333 --> 01:40:44,791
data protection when they work in a

1151
01:40:44,791 --> 01:40:45,750
ministry of fisheries

1152
01:40:45,791 --> 01:40:47,833
like it's so true, so it

1153
01:40:47,833 --> 01:40:49,916
makes perfect sense and um

1154
01:40:51,041 --> 01:40:54,708
Okay, if there is that barrier then you

1155
01:40:54,708 --> 01:40:57,041
can say okay, this is how we can kind of

1156
01:40:57,375 --> 01:40:59,875
Work around that how we can like navigate

1157
01:40:59,875 --> 01:41:02,416
the law and then if there's still

1158
01:41:03,041 --> 01:41:04,791
No response from that state. They're

1159
01:41:04,791 --> 01:41:05,625
still like no, we're

1160
01:41:05,625 --> 01:41:07,083
absolutely not going to work with you

1161
01:41:07,083 --> 01:41:09,083
And they're not going to give a good

1162
01:41:09,083 --> 01:41:10,333
reason why they don't want

1163
01:41:10,333 --> 01:41:11,750
to increase the transparency

1164
01:41:12,666 --> 01:41:14,250
Then you know you have an unwilling

1165
01:41:14,250 --> 01:41:16,833
state, but until that time you just don't

1166
01:41:16,833 --> 01:41:18,041
know you're making assumptions

1167
01:41:18,750 --> 01:41:20,833
Right and I understand that's the role of

1168
01:41:21,458 --> 01:41:23,666
NGO sometimes is to like kick and scream

1169
01:41:23,666 --> 01:41:25,875
and say what's wrong with the world, but

1170
01:41:25,875 --> 01:41:27,541
i'd like to bring in a little bit of

1171
01:41:28,000 --> 01:41:29,666
nuance, uh, yeah

1172
01:41:30,416 --> 01:41:32,708
I really hope no NGOs take offense at

1173
01:41:32,708 --> 01:41:33,958
what I just said, but

1174
01:41:35,291 --> 01:41:37,333
Well, I mean it's true like look let's be

1175
01:41:37,333 --> 01:41:38,375
honest when it comes to fisheries,

1176
01:41:38,375 --> 01:41:41,083
especially if if a country is not willing

1177
01:41:42,250 --> 01:41:43,750
To work with an NGO on a

1178
01:41:43,750 --> 01:41:45,375
particular item their job

1179
01:41:45,708 --> 01:41:48,750
You know depending on what NGO it is a

1180
01:41:48,750 --> 01:41:50,208
lot of them their job is either to work

1181
01:41:50,208 --> 01:41:50,958
with them to be like

1182
01:41:50,958 --> 01:41:52,250
Hey, let's try and figure out

1183
01:41:52,583 --> 01:41:54,166
You know what the barriers are just like

1184
01:41:54,166 --> 01:41:55,416
like what you're saying here

1185
01:41:55,791 --> 01:41:57,791
Uh, but others will will get a little bit

1186
01:41:57,791 --> 01:41:58,500
more aggressive and

1187
01:41:58,500 --> 01:42:00,041
they'll press they'll become more

1188
01:42:00,416 --> 01:42:01,041
They'll go from

1189
01:42:01,041 --> 01:42:05,083
Advocation to to activism, you know, and

1190
01:42:05,083 --> 01:42:06,500
they'll say look we don't like the way

1191
01:42:06,500 --> 01:42:08,125
you get the naming and shaming and

1192
01:42:08,250 --> 01:42:09,083
Naming and shaming

1193
01:42:09,083 --> 01:42:10,541
and protesting and those

1194
01:42:11,375 --> 01:42:13,958
Yeah, yeah, and look they I feel like I

1195
01:42:13,958 --> 01:42:15,250
agree with you. I feel like there's a

1196
01:42:15,250 --> 01:42:16,500
there's a time and place

1197
01:42:16,666 --> 01:42:18,000
Uh for it and

1198
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:20,000
sometimes it brings attention

1199
01:42:20,250 --> 01:42:22,500
We there's always arguments on what type

1200
01:42:22,500 --> 01:42:24,333
of attention is good attention is

1201
01:42:24,333 --> 01:42:25,416
negative or positive

1202
01:42:25,791 --> 01:42:28,208
um, and and there's there's a degree of

1203
01:42:28,208 --> 01:42:29,916
necessity for some of those organizations

1204
01:42:29,916 --> 01:42:31,583
to exist and to do what they do

1205
01:42:31,958 --> 01:42:34,125
But let's be honest the collaboration

1206
01:42:34,666 --> 01:42:37,375
Come the the the advancement comes from

1207
01:42:37,375 --> 01:42:38,916
collaboration the advancement comes from

1208
01:42:38,916 --> 01:42:39,833
little empathy going

1209
01:42:39,958 --> 01:42:41,333
It's like totally understand where you're

1210
01:42:41,333 --> 01:42:42,041
coming from. You've had

1211
01:42:42,041 --> 01:42:43,041
this problem in the past

1212
01:42:43,291 --> 01:42:44,833
You know, you really have to get to know

1213
01:42:44,833 --> 01:42:46,458
the state to just be like

1214
01:42:46,875 --> 01:42:49,166
Where are you coming from? How like why

1215
01:42:49,166 --> 01:42:50,625
are you progressing this way?

1216
01:42:51,041 --> 01:42:53,458
We would love to offer you some help if

1217
01:42:53,458 --> 01:42:55,291
needed if you would like it. Not every

1218
01:42:55,291 --> 01:42:56,875
state is going to accept it

1219
01:42:57,041 --> 01:42:59,208
Um, some are some aren't I feel like

1220
01:42:59,208 --> 01:43:00,416
these days though and you can correct me

1221
01:43:00,416 --> 01:43:00,958
if I'm wrong because you

1222
01:43:00,958 --> 01:43:01,750
probably work with a lot

1223
01:43:01,750 --> 01:43:02,583
Of these different states

1224
01:43:03,208 --> 01:43:05,125
Do you find most of them are coming in

1225
01:43:05,125 --> 01:43:06,083
with a little bit more?

1226
01:43:06,833 --> 01:43:09,416
optimism in terms of working with other

1227
01:43:10,083 --> 01:43:11,666
companies or organizations to

1228
01:43:12,750 --> 01:43:13,708
better their fisheries

1229
01:43:14,666 --> 01:43:16,166
I think a lot of states

1230
01:43:16,166 --> 01:43:17,708
particularly when they

1231
01:43:18,583 --> 01:43:20,083
have challenges in the

1232
01:43:20,625 --> 01:43:25,000
capacity they um can be very willing and

1233
01:43:25,000 --> 01:43:25,750
uh, at least the

1234
01:43:25,750 --> 01:43:27,208
people you talk to it's it's

1235
01:43:27,208 --> 01:43:28,791
Question sometimes whether the broader

1236
01:43:28,791 --> 01:43:30,875
political system is as willing because

1237
01:43:30,875 --> 01:43:31,375
they have different

1238
01:43:31,375 --> 01:43:34,250
priorities, but of course it's um

1239
01:43:35,041 --> 01:43:36,625
Yeah, certainly and now I just gave the

1240
01:43:36,625 --> 01:43:38,833
example of working with NGOs, right?

1241
01:43:39,083 --> 01:43:40,666
And i'm not saying that states are

1242
01:43:40,666 --> 01:43:42,208
obligated to work with NGOs

1243
01:43:42,250 --> 01:43:44,500
I'm just saying there are a lot of NGOs

1244
01:43:44,500 --> 01:43:46,875
that are doing great work when it comes

1245
01:43:46,875 --> 01:43:48,041
to fisheries transparency

1246
01:43:48,666 --> 01:43:51,000
And if there is a need for more capacity

1247
01:43:51,000 --> 01:43:53,166
if there's a need for that support. Yeah,

1248
01:43:53,166 --> 01:43:55,291
I think it's a really great

1249
01:43:55,708 --> 01:43:57,125
Uh option and it would be

1250
01:43:57,125 --> 01:43:59,250
a waste basically to yeah

1251
01:43:59,958 --> 01:44:00,500
have these

1252
01:44:01,875 --> 01:44:02,708
Just because you don't

1253
01:44:02,708 --> 01:44:05,291
quite know how to work with

1254
01:44:05,291 --> 01:44:07,583
Uh balancing these different areas of law

1255
01:44:07,583 --> 01:44:08,541
and these different interests

1256
01:44:08,541 --> 01:44:10,166
to not move forward with that

1257
01:44:10,166 --> 01:44:10,791
I just think that

1258
01:44:10,791 --> 01:44:12,625
would be a waste. So that's

1259
01:44:12,833 --> 01:44:15,083
uh, but i'm not saying they're obligated

1260
01:44:15,083 --> 01:44:15,791
to do that. They're

1261
01:44:15,791 --> 01:44:17,958
just obligated to have a

1262
01:44:18,333 --> 01:44:19,875
adequate system for

1263
01:44:20,333 --> 01:44:20,916
uh

1264
01:44:21,041 --> 01:44:22,916
managing their fishery resources

1265
01:44:23,458 --> 01:44:23,958
and

1266
01:44:24,333 --> 01:44:24,750
um

1267
01:44:24,916 --> 01:44:26,333
If they already do that

1268
01:44:27,000 --> 01:44:29,041
Great, right. Yeah, but I very

1269
01:44:29,208 --> 01:44:29,750
uh

1270
01:44:30,166 --> 01:44:33,750
Now feel like so these are the the states

1271
01:44:33,750 --> 01:44:35,375
the NGOs that are

1272
01:44:35,375 --> 01:44:37,250
focusing on working with states

1273
01:44:37,708 --> 01:44:39,416
um, and I think that's

1274
01:44:40,833 --> 01:44:41,208
Great

1275
01:44:41,875 --> 01:44:42,333
and

1276
01:44:42,750 --> 01:44:45,291
I see that the large majority of NGOs in

1277
01:44:45,291 --> 01:44:46,958
the sector are not even doing that

1278
01:44:46,958 --> 01:44:48,541
they're not focused at all on states

1279
01:44:48,541 --> 01:44:50,625
They're more like oh, yeah fisheries

1280
01:44:50,625 --> 01:44:51,625
management's not really

1281
01:44:51,625 --> 01:44:53,666
doing the job. It should do so

1282
01:44:53,791 --> 01:44:55,375
Let's just come up with all these private

1283
01:44:55,375 --> 01:44:57,208
mechanisms. That's going to kind of fill

1284
01:44:57,208 --> 01:44:59,125
that gap and it just doesn't because

1285
01:44:59,791 --> 01:45:03,041
a private institute, you know, sure they

1286
01:45:03,041 --> 01:45:04,625
can there are examples of

1287
01:45:04,625 --> 01:45:07,375
them doing a good job, um

1288
01:45:07,958 --> 01:45:08,291
but

1289
01:45:09,000 --> 01:45:09,541
ultimately

1290
01:45:10,000 --> 01:45:11,625
I feel like it's such

1291
01:45:11,625 --> 01:45:13,333
a large group focusing

1292
01:45:14,083 --> 01:45:16,750
only on private efforts not at all on uh,

1293
01:45:16,750 --> 01:45:18,083
the role of public institutions

1294
01:45:18,833 --> 01:45:20,750
That gives me kind of the impression that

1295
01:45:20,750 --> 01:45:23,541
we're very distracted with what really

1296
01:45:23,541 --> 01:45:25,541
matters, which is a more sustainable

1297
01:45:26,166 --> 01:45:27,916
sustainable as in long-term

1298
01:45:28,666 --> 01:45:30,375
change of how we manage fisheries

1299
01:45:30,375 --> 01:45:32,958
Uh to really create a more responsible

1300
01:45:32,958 --> 01:45:34,083
and equitable sector

1301
01:45:34,916 --> 01:45:36,541
So that worries me

1302
01:45:37,000 --> 01:45:37,583
um

1303
01:45:37,958 --> 01:45:40,000
and I think it's

1304
01:45:40,416 --> 01:45:42,833
You know private mechanisms. They're not

1305
01:45:42,833 --> 01:45:44,541
able to do the same things

1306
01:45:44,541 --> 01:45:46,416
that states can they don't

1307
01:45:46,708 --> 01:45:50,041
participate in rfmo's they don't

1308
01:45:50,041 --> 01:45:51,541
uh, they're they don't have a

1309
01:45:52,666 --> 01:45:54,833
they're not involved with

1310
01:45:55,708 --> 01:45:56,250
the

1311
01:45:57,375 --> 01:46:00,500
creation, uh of new treaties like you

1312
01:46:00,500 --> 01:46:02,125
have now the high seas treaties that

1313
01:46:02,125 --> 01:46:03,333
we're waiting to have

1314
01:46:03,333 --> 01:46:04,916
enough states ratify that like

1315
01:46:05,125 --> 01:46:05,916
Why aren't more?

1316
01:46:06,541 --> 01:46:08,250
And she was pushing states to ratify this

1317
01:46:08,250 --> 01:46:09,666
treaty like there is an

1318
01:46:09,666 --> 01:46:11,166
instrument that can really

1319
01:46:11,541 --> 01:46:12,333
uh

1320
01:46:12,583 --> 01:46:14,750
provide support in this

1321
01:46:15,125 --> 01:46:16,791
International collaboration that we need

1322
01:46:16,791 --> 01:46:19,708
and no instead we're here just you know

1323
01:46:21,625 --> 01:46:23,041
Working with all these

1324
01:46:23,750 --> 01:46:25,750
Different mechanisms that are just

1325
01:46:25,750 --> 01:46:28,291
tackling such a small part of the issue

1326
01:46:28,750 --> 01:46:30,458
um

1327
01:46:30,458 --> 01:46:32,208
and I feel like a lot of

1328
01:46:32,583 --> 01:46:35,250
Time and energy goes goes wasted there

1329
01:46:35,250 --> 01:46:37,708
and that is why you know, I say generally

1330
01:46:37,708 --> 01:46:39,125
i'm not necessarily the one

1331
01:46:40,500 --> 01:46:42,166
That feels particularly comfortable with

1332
01:46:42,166 --> 01:46:44,125
passing judgment on you know

1333
01:46:44,125 --> 01:46:45,375
states not doing good job here

1334
01:46:45,375 --> 01:46:47,125
Well, because understands the very

1335
01:46:47,125 --> 01:46:48,000
complex system that

1336
01:46:48,000 --> 01:46:49,041
they're part of of course

1337
01:46:49,041 --> 01:46:51,333
But when it comes to an NGO, I you know

1338
01:46:51,333 --> 01:46:53,333
Maybe it is because I have worked for an

1339
01:46:53,333 --> 01:46:54,916
NGO in the past and I know this sector.

1340
01:46:54,916 --> 01:46:56,500
Well, it's I do feel a

1341
01:46:56,500 --> 01:46:57,250
bit more comfortable being

1342
01:46:57,291 --> 01:46:57,750
like

1343
01:46:58,583 --> 01:47:00,208
No, i've been here now for eight years

1344
01:47:00,208 --> 01:47:01,916
and I think you're wrong. I

1345
01:47:01,916 --> 01:47:04,875
think this approach is just uh

1346
01:47:06,666 --> 01:47:07,583
It's a bandage

1347
01:47:08,041 --> 01:47:09,750
Sure, it might do something right, but

1348
01:47:09,750 --> 01:47:11,833
right let's not lose

1349
01:47:12,333 --> 01:47:13,916
Track of what really matters here and

1350
01:47:13,916 --> 01:47:14,833
that's what states are doing

1351
01:47:15,375 --> 01:47:18,166
And I really really i'm such a big

1352
01:47:18,166 --> 01:47:19,666
supporter of the NGOs

1353
01:47:19,666 --> 01:47:20,958
that are really supporting

1354
01:47:21,458 --> 01:47:22,791
States directly or that

1355
01:47:22,791 --> 01:47:24,041
are pushing states directly

1356
01:47:24,583 --> 01:47:26,666
Or that are maybe taking part in in these

1357
01:47:26,666 --> 01:47:28,125
types of meetings like you have the UN

1358
01:47:28,125 --> 01:47:29,208
ocean conference or

1359
01:47:29,208 --> 01:47:31,166
you have the sometimes

1360
01:47:31,875 --> 01:47:33,541
NGOs also have a seat with

1361
01:47:34,500 --> 01:47:38,500
Rfms at least in a advisory capacity like

1362
01:47:38,500 --> 01:47:39,875
all of that amazing

1363
01:47:39,875 --> 01:47:42,000
keep doing great work there

1364
01:47:42,500 --> 01:47:44,541
But ultimately it should be focused on

1365
01:47:44,541 --> 01:47:45,916
that primary responsibility

1366
01:47:47,000 --> 01:47:49,000
And that lies with states and they just

1367
01:47:49,000 --> 01:47:50,750
have so much more power so much more

1368
01:47:50,750 --> 01:47:52,291
means to achieve that

1369
01:47:52,708 --> 01:47:54,958
Yeah, and we need to kind of stop

1370
01:47:56,125 --> 01:47:57,625
putting mandates everywhere because we're

1371
01:47:57,625 --> 01:47:59,833
just creating a lot of confusion and

1372
01:48:00,083 --> 01:48:01,791
Maybe also unwillingness to even talk

1373
01:48:01,791 --> 01:48:04,333
about sustainability anymore. Yeah, it's

1374
01:48:04,333 --> 01:48:05,750
true though. I I agree

1375
01:48:05,875 --> 01:48:07,291
That's it tends to not

1376
01:48:07,291 --> 01:48:08,541
get be the focus anymore

1377
01:48:08,750 --> 01:48:10,625
There's seem to be more short-term

1378
01:48:10,625 --> 01:48:11,958
bandages and short-term

1379
01:48:11,958 --> 01:48:14,291
changes, but not nothing long-term

1380
01:48:14,625 --> 01:48:16,125
When it comes to the work

1381
01:48:16,125 --> 01:48:18,000
that you do at natural justice

1382
01:48:18,000 --> 01:48:20,375
Um, can you talk a little bit about that

1383
01:48:20,375 --> 01:48:22,083
you talk about doing research and looking

1384
01:48:22,083 --> 01:48:23,541
at policies looking at laws?

1385
01:48:23,708 --> 01:48:25,625
Can you maybe give us an example of some

1386
01:48:25,625 --> 01:48:26,625
of the projects that you're

1387
01:48:26,625 --> 01:48:27,458
that you're able to talk about?

1388
01:48:28,166 --> 01:48:29,875
Yeah, certainly. So I

1389
01:48:30,583 --> 01:48:31,958
Do different projects.

1390
01:48:31,958 --> 01:48:33,375
It kind of depends on

1391
01:48:33,958 --> 01:48:36,625
One side I do work with these different

1392
01:48:36,625 --> 01:48:39,000
NGOs or they're not even really NGOs.

1393
01:48:39,000 --> 01:48:39,458
They're more like

1394
01:48:39,458 --> 01:48:40,708
civil society organizations

1395
01:48:41,625 --> 01:48:42,625
Uh because they're not

1396
01:48:42,625 --> 01:48:43,791
in the field of advocacy

1397
01:48:44,166 --> 01:48:45,958
uh, but the different

1398
01:48:46,916 --> 01:48:48,750
civil society organizations that are

1399
01:48:48,750 --> 01:48:52,166
working on fisheries transparency and I

1400
01:48:52,166 --> 01:48:54,083
do legal research on

1401
01:48:54,333 --> 01:48:56,208
the examples that I gave of

1402
01:48:56,500 --> 01:48:58,458
Personal data protection for instance or

1403
01:48:58,458 --> 01:49:00,125
intellectual property law where they're

1404
01:49:00,125 --> 01:49:01,916
running into legal barriers and they're

1405
01:49:01,916 --> 01:49:02,625
just trying to understand

1406
01:49:02,750 --> 01:49:06,041
Okay, is this indeed what you know, these

1407
01:49:06,041 --> 01:49:07,916
government representatives have told us

1408
01:49:07,916 --> 01:49:09,416
and if so, how can we

1409
01:49:09,416 --> 01:49:10,541
change our approach?

1410
01:49:11,333 --> 01:49:13,000
To still be able to work with them to

1411
01:49:13,000 --> 01:49:13,875
still achieve our mission.

1412
01:49:13,875 --> 01:49:15,791
Yes, which I uh fully applaud

1413
01:49:15,791 --> 01:49:17,833
I think that's a great way of of trying

1414
01:49:17,833 --> 01:49:18,958
to achieve it where it's like

1415
01:49:18,958 --> 01:49:20,375
Okay, if not this way then this way

1416
01:49:20,375 --> 01:49:21,166
because no one said it

1417
01:49:21,166 --> 01:49:22,125
was going to be easy, right?

1418
01:49:22,125 --> 01:49:23,666
It's it's okay to hit hit

1419
01:49:23,666 --> 01:49:26,125
these different roadblocks and um

1420
01:49:26,125 --> 01:49:27,583
Well, and sometimes the lawmakers don't

1421
01:49:27,583 --> 01:49:29,375
know the law sometimes they don't know

1422
01:49:29,375 --> 01:49:30,083
the policies are there

1423
01:49:30,166 --> 01:49:31,750
We've kind of seen it here in north

1424
01:49:31,750 --> 01:49:34,458
america with the new us president or the

1425
01:49:34,458 --> 01:49:35,375
returning us president

1426
01:49:35,375 --> 01:49:36,500
talking about certain things

1427
01:49:36,500 --> 01:49:37,875
Like I can do this I can do that

1428
01:49:37,875 --> 01:49:39,750
But then when it comes down to the court

1429
01:49:40,166 --> 01:49:42,708
You can't do a lot of those policies and

1430
01:49:42,708 --> 01:49:44,208
laws because you just weren't aware of

1431
01:49:44,208 --> 01:49:45,500
what was of what was

1432
01:49:45,500 --> 01:49:47,333
happening before. You know, it's very

1433
01:49:47,708 --> 01:49:50,666
Uh true. Yeah often people can work at a

1434
01:49:50,666 --> 01:49:51,291
government, but don't

1435
01:49:51,291 --> 01:49:53,041
understand the law at all

1436
01:49:53,208 --> 01:49:54,875
But even lawyers they will be so

1437
01:49:54,875 --> 01:49:56,291
specialized in their field that they

1438
01:49:56,291 --> 01:49:57,708
don't understand how their field

1439
01:49:57,708 --> 01:49:58,708
interacts with other fields

1440
01:49:59,291 --> 01:50:00,666
True, especially when you talk about

1441
01:50:00,666 --> 01:50:02,291
broadening the type of laws that are

1442
01:50:02,291 --> 01:50:03,291
coming in for privacy

1443
01:50:03,291 --> 01:50:04,125
and so forth, right?

1444
01:50:04,791 --> 01:50:07,083
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I mean I never

1445
01:50:07,958 --> 01:50:09,208
focused on personal

1446
01:50:09,208 --> 01:50:09,791
data protection necessarily

1447
01:50:09,791 --> 01:50:12,500
uh that much in law

1448
01:50:12,500 --> 01:50:14,833
school i'm lucky that I am from

1449
01:50:15,458 --> 01:50:16,041
a

1450
01:50:16,416 --> 01:50:18,833
European law like that's I was educated

1451
01:50:18,833 --> 01:50:20,541
in a european law school and that

1452
01:50:20,541 --> 01:50:21,416
personal data protection

1453
01:50:21,416 --> 01:50:22,708
is very much something where

1454
01:50:23,041 --> 01:50:25,333
The eu has has pushed a lot for that and

1455
01:50:25,333 --> 01:50:26,708
it's yeah, they take it seriously. Yeah

1456
01:50:26,750 --> 01:50:28,458
Yeah, so you so you see

1457
01:50:28,458 --> 01:50:30,750
a lot of the different

1458
01:50:31,291 --> 01:50:32,958
countries particularly civil law

1459
01:50:32,958 --> 01:50:33,708
countries, so those

1460
01:50:33,708 --> 01:50:35,500
are countries that have a

1461
01:50:35,708 --> 01:50:37,750
legal system based off of the french

1462
01:50:37,750 --> 01:50:40,208
system where everything will be very much

1463
01:50:40,208 --> 01:50:41,416
already dictated in the

1464
01:50:41,416 --> 01:50:44,125
law and then the court's

1465
01:50:44,125 --> 01:50:44,625
um

1466
01:50:45,291 --> 01:50:48,750
role is to interpret that law that is uh,

1467
01:50:48,750 --> 01:50:50,000
generally you see a lot

1468
01:50:50,000 --> 01:50:51,083
of those countries have

1469
01:50:51,625 --> 01:50:53,250
Personal data protection laws that are

1470
01:50:53,250 --> 01:50:54,500
very similar to what the eu

1471
01:50:54,833 --> 01:50:56,708
um has done because I

1472
01:50:56,708 --> 01:50:57,750
guess they're kind of the

1473
01:50:58,166 --> 01:50:58,625
um

1474
01:51:00,250 --> 01:51:02,208
Leading um, I guess a lot

1475
01:51:02,208 --> 01:51:03,500
of the development there

1476
01:51:03,500 --> 01:51:05,375
But if you look at countries like the us

1477
01:51:05,375 --> 01:51:07,833
or canada where it's a common law system

1478
01:51:07,958 --> 01:51:10,291
It will be very different and also the

1479
01:51:10,291 --> 01:51:11,708
legal barriers you're going to run into

1480
01:51:11,708 --> 01:51:13,041
they're going to be very different

1481
01:51:13,708 --> 01:51:14,250
so

1482
01:51:14,833 --> 01:51:16,875
That is a bit novel to me

1483
01:51:16,916 --> 01:51:19,041
But you know, I talk to a

1484
01:51:19,041 --> 01:51:20,500
lot of lawyers from different

1485
01:51:21,291 --> 01:51:24,250
areas and a lot of stakeholders that are

1486
01:51:24,250 --> 01:51:25,833
more on the other side that are running

1487
01:51:25,833 --> 01:51:27,500
into these legal barriers

1488
01:51:28,083 --> 01:51:30,250
And with all of that i'm trying to kind

1489
01:51:30,250 --> 01:51:31,875
of make some sort of sense

1490
01:51:31,875 --> 01:51:34,000
of it. Yeah, it's definitely

1491
01:51:34,833 --> 01:51:35,250
uh

1492
01:51:35,708 --> 01:51:37,541
uncharted territory sometimes

1493
01:51:38,000 --> 01:51:39,333
Because people that are interested in

1494
01:51:39,333 --> 01:51:40,166
fisheries, they're not going to

1495
01:51:40,166 --> 01:51:40,750
specialize in

1496
01:51:40,750 --> 01:51:42,250
personal data protection. No

1497
01:51:42,916 --> 01:51:45,666
I'm lucky because I just love law. It's

1498
01:51:45,666 --> 01:51:46,625
just one big puzzle to

1499
01:51:46,625 --> 01:51:48,500
me. I can look at it all day

1500
01:51:48,666 --> 01:51:51,083
I'm just like analyzing stuff. It's

1501
01:51:52,000 --> 01:51:55,041
I just born to do legal work. Basically.

1502
01:51:55,291 --> 01:51:56,625
I also know it sounds

1503
01:51:56,625 --> 01:51:58,666
extremely boring to a lot of people

1504
01:51:59,041 --> 01:52:00,541
And if you're like i'm going to go into

1505
01:52:00,541 --> 01:52:01,708
the fisheries sector marine

1506
01:52:01,708 --> 01:52:03,208
conservation, it's exciting

1507
01:52:03,708 --> 01:52:04,666
you're not going to want to

1508
01:52:04,666 --> 01:52:08,083
specialize in those areas and um

1509
01:52:08,083 --> 01:52:10,000
so I don't expect people that work for a

1510
01:52:10,000 --> 01:52:11,458
ministry of fisheries to to

1511
01:52:11,458 --> 01:52:13,041
know a lot about that because

1512
01:52:13,458 --> 01:52:14,916
They might think it's not that relevant,

1513
01:52:14,916 --> 01:52:17,041
but it is a lot of different

1514
01:52:18,000 --> 01:52:19,958
legal protections will be relevant for

1515
01:52:19,958 --> 01:52:21,916
fisheries because we're talking about

1516
01:52:22,250 --> 01:52:24,583
fisheries data and data is such a

1517
01:52:24,958 --> 01:52:26,958
topic right now where we're talking a lot

1518
01:52:26,958 --> 01:52:28,750
about how do we balance

1519
01:52:28,750 --> 01:52:30,916
the availability of data with

1520
01:52:31,458 --> 01:52:33,541
uh privacy and

1521
01:52:33,541 --> 01:52:36,291
national security for sure and

1522
01:52:36,583 --> 01:52:37,625
all these different

1523
01:52:37,625 --> 01:52:39,583
different elements, so it's

1524
01:52:40,000 --> 01:52:41,708
It's really quite important, but it is

1525
01:52:41,708 --> 01:52:43,000
also extremely niche

1526
01:52:43,708 --> 01:52:44,375
and

1527
01:52:44,833 --> 01:52:45,250
um

1528
01:52:45,791 --> 01:52:47,625
Yeah government representatives and even

1529
01:52:47,625 --> 01:52:49,000
lawyers. They won't always know

1530
01:52:49,000 --> 01:52:50,708
everything. I definitely don't pretend

1531
01:52:50,708 --> 01:52:52,000
like I know everything

1532
01:52:52,500 --> 01:52:55,041
I just know that i'm focused on it and

1533
01:52:55,041 --> 01:52:56,750
every day I try and learn a little bit

1534
01:52:56,750 --> 01:52:58,291
more about it and every day

1535
01:52:58,291 --> 01:52:59,416
I try and solve this

1536
01:52:59,416 --> 01:53:02,041
puzzle a little bit more for the

1537
01:53:02,500 --> 01:53:04,875
uh civil society organizations that are

1538
01:53:04,875 --> 01:53:05,916
trying to work with states

1539
01:53:05,916 --> 01:53:07,541
on fisheries transparency

1540
01:53:08,166 --> 01:53:10,083
I also work on agriculture

1541
01:53:10,916 --> 01:53:13,666
and uh there we're looking also a lot at

1542
01:53:13,666 --> 01:53:15,166
not just the law and policy but also a

1543
01:53:15,166 --> 01:53:16,166
lot at the science and

1544
01:53:16,166 --> 01:53:17,333
basically just kind of

1545
01:53:17,708 --> 01:53:19,583
bringing all of that together and

1546
01:53:19,791 --> 01:53:21,750
What I really like is generally with

1547
01:53:21,750 --> 01:53:23,583
natural justice is to bring more

1548
01:53:24,750 --> 01:53:27,458
I guess nuance and also just more

1549
01:53:28,333 --> 01:53:31,208
Very clear and transparent thinking of

1550
01:53:31,208 --> 01:53:33,208
okay. Why are we you know, we're doing a

1551
01:53:33,208 --> 01:53:34,250
gap analysis. Okay.

1552
01:53:34,250 --> 01:53:35,000
What's this framework?

1553
01:53:35,541 --> 01:53:37,375
What have we based that on and it's just

1554
01:53:37,375 --> 01:53:39,625
going to be purely based on science law?

1555
01:53:39,625 --> 01:53:41,208
Yeah, very tangible things

1556
01:53:41,208 --> 01:53:42,791
that are not that political

1557
01:53:43,458 --> 01:53:44,166
um

1558
01:53:44,750 --> 01:53:47,166
and just comparing it with that with the

1559
01:53:47,166 --> 01:53:49,333
conclusions it's really up to the the

1560
01:53:49,333 --> 01:53:50,916
clients that we work with to

1561
01:53:51,125 --> 01:53:53,208
do with that what uh

1562
01:53:53,416 --> 01:53:55,916
they see fit but um

1563
01:53:56,000 --> 01:53:57,833
yeah, really just bringing in very

1564
01:53:57,833 --> 01:53:59,375
thorough analysis and

1565
01:53:59,375 --> 01:54:00,875
because we are not a

1566
01:54:01,375 --> 01:54:02,250
civil society

1567
01:54:02,250 --> 01:54:05,125
organization as in that we are

1568
01:54:05,541 --> 01:54:07,125
We're trying to make an impact, but we're

1569
01:54:07,125 --> 01:54:08,666
not a not-for-profit. So

1570
01:54:08,666 --> 01:54:10,041
we don't depend on funding

1571
01:54:10,500 --> 01:54:13,291
We can work on what we want. Well, of

1572
01:54:13,291 --> 01:54:14,125
course, we need to have

1573
01:54:14,125 --> 01:54:15,250
clients that actually pay us

1574
01:54:15,250 --> 01:54:15,916
otherwise i'm doing a

1575
01:54:15,916 --> 01:54:17,250
lot of volunteering, but

1576
01:54:18,750 --> 01:54:19,666
It's

1577
01:54:19,958 --> 01:54:22,666
We're pretty free in that sense. Yeah at

1578
01:54:22,666 --> 01:54:24,625
least yeah, I think that's great

1579
01:54:25,041 --> 01:54:26,833
Yeah, 100. I think it's great because it

1580
01:54:26,833 --> 01:54:29,041
allows you to you know, get that

1581
01:54:29,041 --> 01:54:30,333
creativity it allows

1582
01:54:31,208 --> 01:54:34,166
you to really expand and and also take

1583
01:54:34,166 --> 01:54:36,458
from you know one state and apply what

1584
01:54:36,458 --> 01:54:38,000
would benefit to another state or

1585
01:54:38,166 --> 01:54:39,916
You know vice versa and I think that

1586
01:54:40,375 --> 01:54:42,083
Gives you that freedom to do that instead

1587
01:54:42,083 --> 01:54:43,416
if you work for one state or

1588
01:54:43,416 --> 01:54:44,500
you work for it in jail within

1589
01:54:44,666 --> 01:54:45,791
You know within a confines

1590
01:54:45,791 --> 01:54:47,833
of one place you can really

1591
01:54:48,833 --> 01:54:50,708
Go across sectors within fisheries and

1592
01:54:50,708 --> 01:54:51,583
across states, which I

1593
01:54:51,583 --> 01:54:52,666
think is really important

1594
01:54:52,666 --> 01:54:54,458
It's and it's what needed and I think it

1595
01:54:54,458 --> 01:54:55,750
allows you to build that experience

1596
01:54:56,166 --> 01:54:58,958
uh to to focus on that which which I

1597
01:54:58,958 --> 01:55:00,750
which I think is wonderful really

1598
01:55:00,750 --> 01:55:04,500
grateful as well for having been able to

1599
01:55:04,916 --> 01:55:06,250
build a good network where I

1600
01:55:07,625 --> 01:55:10,375
See there's different worlds that i'm

1601
01:55:10,375 --> 01:55:12,125
sometimes and they don't interact that

1602
01:55:12,125 --> 01:55:12,958
much with each other

1603
01:55:12,958 --> 01:55:14,875
But I try and interact with all of them.

1604
01:55:14,875 --> 01:55:17,708
So yeah, this research actually that I

1605
01:55:17,708 --> 01:55:19,500
was talking about the legal barriers

1606
01:55:19,708 --> 01:55:20,708
or legal protections

1607
01:55:20,708 --> 01:55:22,333
of fisheries data, um,

1608
01:55:22,416 --> 01:55:25,541
uh initiated that as a phd at

1609
01:55:26,000 --> 01:55:28,166
University of hombre so through that i'm

1610
01:55:28,166 --> 01:55:30,500
also part of this like legal scholar

1611
01:55:30,500 --> 01:55:32,208
community that just like

1612
01:55:32,208 --> 01:55:33,625
talks about law of the sea

1613
01:55:33,708 --> 01:55:35,708
And all those things and that's just a

1614
01:55:35,708 --> 01:55:36,291
completely separate

1615
01:55:36,291 --> 01:55:38,416
world and then uh, my world

1616
01:55:38,750 --> 01:55:42,000
like my work world is mostly in

1617
01:55:42,250 --> 01:55:44,833
The seafood sector where I am in contact

1618
01:55:44,833 --> 01:55:46,041
with a lot of civil society

1619
01:55:46,041 --> 01:55:47,041
organizations, but also

1620
01:55:47,041 --> 01:55:48,458
with supply chain companies

1621
01:55:49,541 --> 01:55:51,000
and um

1622
01:55:51,291 --> 01:55:53,583
But I also and this is mostly through

1623
01:55:53,625 --> 01:55:57,083
uh, I think coursework and then uh

1624
01:55:57,083 --> 01:55:58,041
coursework that I was able

1625
01:55:58,041 --> 01:56:00,333
to do through fao and then

1626
01:56:00,750 --> 01:56:03,208
um now linking that to my research as

1627
01:56:03,208 --> 01:56:04,791
well, I talk to a lot of

1628
01:56:05,125 --> 01:56:06,416
government representatives

1629
01:56:07,000 --> 01:56:09,833
so i'm really able to learn from the

1630
01:56:09,833 --> 01:56:11,500
experience of a lot of different people

1631
01:56:11,500 --> 01:56:12,375
with very different

1632
01:56:12,375 --> 01:56:15,250
perspectives on this and it's

1633
01:56:16,166 --> 01:56:17,708
I think really helpful to

1634
01:56:18,166 --> 01:56:19,500
yeah, love kind of

1635
01:56:20,666 --> 01:56:22,708
Would love it if natural justice, you

1636
01:56:22,708 --> 01:56:24,500
know, like maybe five years from now

1637
01:56:24,833 --> 01:56:27,291
I can say like actually we've helped to

1638
01:56:27,291 --> 01:56:29,000
kind of build bridges a little bit

1639
01:56:29,000 --> 01:56:30,500
between those worlds like bring more of

1640
01:56:30,500 --> 01:56:31,541
that understanding of

1641
01:56:31,791 --> 01:56:32,750
the legal perspective

1642
01:56:32,750 --> 01:56:35,000
into the seafood sector, um

1643
01:56:35,625 --> 01:56:36,750
as well as

1644
01:56:37,291 --> 01:56:38,375
you know to

1645
01:56:39,291 --> 01:56:39,666
government

1646
01:56:40,333 --> 01:56:42,708
Representatives where i've you know i've

1647
01:56:42,708 --> 01:56:44,583
taken the example of legal

1648
01:56:44,583 --> 01:56:46,666
barriers to working with ngoes

1649
01:56:46,666 --> 01:56:47,708
but it can even be

1650
01:56:48,583 --> 01:56:50,791
There's many examples of legal barriers

1651
01:56:50,791 --> 01:56:52,041
of different public

1652
01:56:52,041 --> 01:56:53,875
institutes of one state

1653
01:56:54,416 --> 01:56:55,708
Not being able to share

1654
01:56:55,708 --> 01:56:57,333
certain fisheries data

1655
01:56:58,000 --> 01:57:01,041
Between them because it was confidential

1656
01:57:01,041 --> 01:57:01,833
and I couldn't be

1657
01:57:01,833 --> 01:57:03,125
shared to another institute

1658
01:57:03,208 --> 01:57:05,916
So, you know, it really just is relevant

1659
01:57:05,916 --> 01:57:07,833
for different levels and with that for

1660
01:57:07,833 --> 01:57:08,750
different stakeholders

1661
01:57:09,458 --> 01:57:11,250
And yeah, I really love

1662
01:57:11,250 --> 01:57:12,166
kind of building those bridges

1663
01:57:12,208 --> 01:57:15,041
But also just feel very fortunate that I

1664
01:57:15,041 --> 01:57:16,833
can learn from a lot of these firsthand

1665
01:57:16,833 --> 01:57:18,125
experiences because I

1666
01:57:18,125 --> 01:57:19,208
certainly don't have them

1667
01:57:19,750 --> 01:57:21,125
Yeah for sure. No, I love

1668
01:57:21,125 --> 01:57:22,416
it. I love this has been

1669
01:57:23,125 --> 01:57:25,250
amazing to dive deep into

1670
01:57:25,541 --> 01:57:25,916
You know

1671
01:57:26,166 --> 01:57:27,583
All these different types of policies and

1672
01:57:27,583 --> 01:57:28,875
laws and where we're at and where we need

1673
01:57:28,875 --> 01:57:29,875
to go and the research

1674
01:57:29,875 --> 01:57:30,416
that you've been able

1675
01:57:30,416 --> 01:57:31,125
to accomplish

1676
01:57:31,791 --> 01:57:33,250
It seems like you're just scratching the

1677
01:57:33,250 --> 01:57:35,166
surface, you know from from your career

1678
01:57:35,166 --> 01:57:36,958
and and really getting into it

1679
01:57:37,000 --> 01:57:39,208
I love it and i'd love to have you back

1680
01:57:39,208 --> 01:57:41,666
on invite you back on to talk more and on

1681
01:57:41,666 --> 01:57:43,250
a more regular basis because I feel like

1682
01:57:43,250 --> 01:57:44,291
you could become our

1683
01:57:44,500 --> 01:57:46,666
Our correspondent for law and fisheries.

1684
01:57:46,666 --> 01:57:48,625
I think it'd be it would be a lot of fun

1685
01:57:48,791 --> 01:57:51,750
um in one last question in terms of like

1686
01:57:51,750 --> 01:57:53,833
the future of fisheries and law like

1687
01:57:54,166 --> 01:57:56,291
Where do you think we really need to

1688
01:57:56,291 --> 01:57:58,625
focus in to really, you

1689
01:57:58,625 --> 01:58:00,125
know protect our fisheries?

1690
01:58:00,625 --> 01:58:01,875
Overall, it doesn't have to be specific

1691
01:58:02,000 --> 01:58:03,875
But just overall that you've seen in

1692
01:58:03,875 --> 01:58:05,250
terms of trends of the work

1693
01:58:05,250 --> 01:58:06,583
that you've been able to to do

1694
01:58:08,708 --> 01:58:09,625
Is that a very

1695
01:58:10,416 --> 01:58:11,500
It's a big question

1696
01:58:11,500 --> 01:58:14,916
question, but I think for me right now

1697
01:58:14,916 --> 01:58:16,041
with what i've seen for

1698
01:58:16,041 --> 01:58:17,500
me the biggest point is

1699
01:58:18,166 --> 01:58:20,708
Because governments they're like I said

1700
01:58:20,708 --> 01:58:22,125
i've emphasized a lot they're

1701
01:58:22,125 --> 01:58:24,458
responsible, but they're also

1702
01:58:24,916 --> 01:58:27,041
In a system that it's it's not

1703
01:58:27,041 --> 01:58:27,958
necessarily that they can

1704
01:58:27,958 --> 01:58:29,416
change things overnight, right?

1705
01:58:29,791 --> 01:58:30,875
and I

1706
01:58:31,291 --> 01:58:34,000
recognize that in the interim we do need

1707
01:58:34,333 --> 01:58:36,833
The private sector to step up and make

1708
01:58:36,833 --> 01:58:38,500
sure that they're still sourcing seafood

1709
01:58:38,833 --> 01:58:41,791
Properly and they rely on NGOs to do that

1710
01:58:41,791 --> 01:58:45,125
and that is all fine, but I would still

1711
01:58:46,166 --> 01:58:48,916
Like to really see that instead of

1712
01:58:48,916 --> 01:58:50,375
finding each other on

1713
01:58:50,375 --> 01:58:52,500
which private mechanism is best

1714
01:58:53,291 --> 01:58:55,291
There would be maybe a little bit more

1715
01:58:55,291 --> 01:58:57,250
alignment within that

1716
01:58:57,250 --> 01:58:59,916
fishery sector and with that

1717
01:59:00,916 --> 01:59:02,833
more focus on

1718
01:59:03,125 --> 01:59:05,125
Pushing states to at least for instance

1719
01:59:05,125 --> 01:59:07,666
ratify these international treaties like

1720
01:59:07,666 --> 01:59:09,208
i've mentioned the high seed treaty

1721
01:59:09,625 --> 01:59:11,333
but there's also one from the

1722
01:59:11,625 --> 01:59:14,750
World Trade Organization on the

1723
01:59:16,083 --> 01:59:18,416
Ill-directed subsidies that

1724
01:59:18,416 --> 01:59:19,791
we see a lot with fisheries

1725
01:59:20,083 --> 01:59:22,166
So if we can get more of a push to at

1726
01:59:22,166 --> 01:59:23,500
least at the international level

1727
01:59:24,166 --> 01:59:26,083
Push states to do the right thing

1728
01:59:26,666 --> 01:59:28,791
And then we can take that next step on

1729
01:59:28,791 --> 01:59:31,125
focusing how we can best as a sector

1730
01:59:31,791 --> 01:59:32,291
really

1731
01:59:32,916 --> 01:59:35,333
push them to

1732
01:59:37,500 --> 01:59:40,166
Responsibly manage those fisheries

1733
01:59:40,166 --> 01:59:43,791
resources and I think that could be

1734
01:59:44,583 --> 01:59:46,416
a much better use of

1735
01:59:47,208 --> 01:59:49,166
resources yeah and

1736
01:59:49,208 --> 01:59:49,541
um

1737
01:59:51,583 --> 01:59:51,875
Those

1738
01:59:52,958 --> 01:59:55,416
Yeah, that's I think i'm gonna stop there

1739
01:59:55,416 --> 01:59:57,083
because I can ramble

1740
01:59:58,166 --> 02:00:00,375
I just I have a lot to say in this

1741
02:00:00,375 --> 02:00:03,416
context. I love it. I think it's

1742
02:00:03,541 --> 02:00:05,250
uh, I think that could be a good start

1743
02:00:05,250 --> 02:00:08,333
and I also know that you know looking at

1744
02:00:08,333 --> 02:00:10,208
at least where Europe or

1745
02:00:10,416 --> 02:00:11,791
The us is now it's

1746
02:00:11,791 --> 02:00:13,541
maybe not a very popular

1747
02:00:14,416 --> 02:00:15,375
opinion to

1748
02:00:16,500 --> 02:00:18,500
promote state responsibility and

1749
02:00:18,500 --> 02:00:20,500
environmental management because we don't

1750
02:00:20,500 --> 02:00:22,416
really seem to have the politicians in

1751
02:00:22,416 --> 02:00:23,250
place that are going to

1752
02:00:23,250 --> 02:00:24,500
step up to do that but

1753
02:00:24,875 --> 02:00:26,416
Let's not I mean

1754
02:00:27,500 --> 02:00:29,708
Most cases it's a term of four years

1755
02:00:30,250 --> 02:00:32,583
Let's not focus on the short-term goals.

1756
02:00:32,583 --> 02:00:33,708
Let's focus on the

1757
02:00:33,708 --> 02:00:35,541
long-term goals and exactly

1758
02:00:35,833 --> 02:00:37,291
The world's a big place. There's a lot of

1759
02:00:37,291 --> 02:00:39,000
governments that are still trying every

1760
02:00:39,000 --> 02:00:40,500
day to do better and

1761
02:00:40,958 --> 02:00:42,375
Yeah, it's like we said

1762
02:00:42,375 --> 02:00:43,583
before this is not a fisheries

1763
02:00:44,708 --> 02:00:46,583
Yeah, and let me say first not a

1764
02:00:47,500 --> 02:00:49,000
Sorry, sorry. Go ahead. He's finished

1765
02:00:50,083 --> 02:00:53,416
no worries, uh, no just work towards a

1766
02:00:53,833 --> 02:00:55,791
more promising future of fisheries

1767
02:00:55,791 --> 02:00:58,500
because i've seen in the past

1768
02:00:58,500 --> 02:01:00,291
eight years a lot of talk but

1769
02:01:00,958 --> 02:01:02,833
Except for those two treaties that I

1770
02:01:02,833 --> 02:01:04,833
mentioned that need to be ratified by

1771
02:01:04,833 --> 02:01:06,375
more states. I've seen

1772
02:01:06,375 --> 02:01:07,666
little tangible results

1773
02:01:08,500 --> 02:01:10,166
Yeah, no 100 and then

1774
02:01:10,166 --> 02:01:11,416
obviously we need we need more

1775
02:01:11,458 --> 02:01:13,500
Uh, I don't even think canada has

1776
02:01:13,500 --> 02:01:15,333
ratified it yet. Uh, the high seas

1777
02:01:15,333 --> 02:01:16,500
treaty. Anyway, uh,

1778
02:01:16,500 --> 02:01:17,333
call your government today

1779
02:01:17,833 --> 02:01:20,208
I I agree they're going out soon. So they

1780
02:01:20,208 --> 02:01:22,083
want to vote provincially, but yeah, we

1781
02:01:22,083 --> 02:01:23,250
got to talk friendly, too

1782
02:01:23,250 --> 02:01:24,458
I completely agree

1783
02:01:25,125 --> 02:01:26,875
Look, this is a you know, obviously

1784
02:01:26,875 --> 02:01:28,208
fisheries is a complex issue.

1785
02:01:28,208 --> 02:01:29,416
It's it's never easy to solve

1786
02:01:29,416 --> 02:01:32,000
This is why it's been such a like a topic

1787
02:01:32,000 --> 02:01:33,833
of conversation for a long time

1788
02:01:33,833 --> 02:01:36,208
But I feel like you know understanding

1789
02:01:36,208 --> 02:01:37,291
the laws that are around

1790
02:01:37,291 --> 02:01:38,375
and what needs to be done

1791
02:01:38,958 --> 02:01:40,458
Is really is really helpful.

1792
02:01:40,458 --> 02:01:41,333
So I want to thank you so much

1793
02:01:41,333 --> 02:01:43,291
Ava for coming on the podcast and being

1794
02:01:43,291 --> 02:01:45,208
able to talk to us about this and again

1795
02:01:45,375 --> 02:01:46,000
Can't wait to have

1796
02:01:46,000 --> 02:01:47,041
you back on to talk more

1797
02:01:47,833 --> 02:01:49,250
Yeah, very welcome. Thanks a lot

1798
02:01:49,250 --> 02:01:50,750
Thank you Ava for joining us on today's

1799
02:01:50,750 --> 02:01:51,750
episode of the how to

1800
02:01:51,750 --> 02:01:52,541
protect the ocean podcast

1801
02:01:52,541 --> 02:01:53,958
It was great to be able to have you on to

1802
02:01:53,958 --> 02:01:55,250
discuss law and fisheries

1803
02:01:55,500 --> 02:01:56,791
I just think that this is such a

1804
02:01:56,791 --> 02:01:58,500
complicated issue and so complex

1805
02:01:58,500 --> 02:02:00,458
It's nice to have somebody on the podcast

1806
02:02:00,458 --> 02:02:02,833
to be able to help us get through all the

1807
02:02:02,833 --> 02:02:04,041
layers of different laws and

1808
02:02:04,333 --> 02:02:05,041
What we need to really

1809
02:02:05,041 --> 02:02:06,291
focus on in the future

1810
02:02:06,333 --> 02:02:08,000
I thought it was really interesting to

1811
02:02:08,000 --> 02:02:10,375
see your perspectives on you know

1812
02:02:10,375 --> 02:02:12,208
The law and what we need to do and take

1813
02:02:12,208 --> 02:02:14,208
away some of these private mechanisms and

1814
02:02:14,208 --> 02:02:15,708
manage more publicly and

1815
02:02:15,708 --> 02:02:16,708
more through governance

1816
02:02:17,041 --> 02:02:18,291
From the different states.

1817
02:02:18,291 --> 02:02:19,250
I think that's really great

1818
02:02:19,250 --> 02:02:20,708
Obviously collaboration is key,

1819
02:02:20,708 --> 02:02:22,208
especially within the eu and other

1820
02:02:22,208 --> 02:02:24,083
countries as well that have you know

1821
02:02:24,083 --> 02:02:25,208
neighboring borders or

1822
02:02:25,208 --> 02:02:26,500
the share the same border

1823
02:02:26,708 --> 02:02:28,250
I feel like that's something that can

1824
02:02:28,250 --> 02:02:30,833
always be improved upon no matter where

1825
02:02:30,833 --> 02:02:31,916
you are in the world

1826
02:02:32,083 --> 02:02:34,125
So sometimes you are neighbors with

1827
02:02:34,125 --> 02:02:36,333
friends and sometimes you are not allies

1828
02:02:36,333 --> 02:02:37,208
and sometimes you're allies

1829
02:02:37,208 --> 02:02:38,791
You don't even realize that one person

1830
02:02:38,791 --> 02:02:40,333
wants more than the other and this really

1831
02:02:40,333 --> 02:02:42,083
can be complex just within that

1832
02:02:42,083 --> 02:02:45,458
So it really is a focus on how to

1833
02:02:45,458 --> 02:02:47,333
negotiate how to get along

1834
02:02:47,333 --> 02:02:48,500
and how to manage fisheries

1835
02:02:48,500 --> 02:02:50,541
Because fish don't see borders like we do

1836
02:02:50,541 --> 02:02:51,791
and so they see

1837
02:02:51,791 --> 02:02:52,958
borders from natural borders

1838
02:02:52,958 --> 02:02:55,125
We see borders from political borders and

1839
02:02:55,125 --> 02:02:56,625
that can be complex within itself

1840
02:02:56,625 --> 02:02:58,958
So it's great to be able to have ava on

1841
02:02:58,958 --> 02:03:00,125
and i'm going to put links

1842
02:03:00,125 --> 02:03:01,416
to get to connect with ava

1843
02:03:01,458 --> 02:03:03,041
And you find out more about her

1844
02:03:03,041 --> 02:03:05,708
consultancy called natural justice and

1845
02:03:05,708 --> 02:03:06,500
you can find her at

1846
02:03:06,500 --> 02:03:08,666
natural justice dot n l

1847
02:03:08,666 --> 02:03:11,000
dot natural justice dot

1848
02:03:11,000 --> 02:03:13,708
And we'll put more links to her linkedin

1849
02:03:13,708 --> 02:03:15,041
as well and to her newsletter.

1850
02:03:15,083 --> 02:03:16,500
That's it for today's episode

1851
02:03:16,500 --> 02:03:18,000
I want to thank ava again

1852
02:03:18,000 --> 02:03:19,083
for coming on the podcast

1853
02:03:19,083 --> 02:03:20,583
I want to thank you for listening to this

1854
02:03:20,583 --> 02:03:21,833
podcast if you have any questions or

1855
02:03:21,833 --> 02:03:23,083
comments about the episode

1856
02:03:23,291 --> 02:03:25,500
Please feel free to dm me on instagram

1857
02:03:25,666 --> 02:03:27,625
You can do so at how to protect the ocean

1858
02:03:27,708 --> 02:03:29,916
That's at how to protect the ocean and if

1859
02:03:29,916 --> 02:03:32,000
you are interested in learning more and

1860
02:03:32,000 --> 02:03:32,916
want to know more about

1861
02:03:32,916 --> 02:03:33,916
these videos that you're watching

1862
02:03:33,916 --> 02:03:35,166
On youtube if you're watching this on

1863
02:03:35,166 --> 02:03:36,000
youtube, you can subscribe

1864
02:03:36,000 --> 02:03:37,166
and click that notification bell

1865
02:03:37,166 --> 02:03:38,583
So you don't miss any of the episodes

1866
02:03:38,583 --> 02:03:41,083
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1867
02:03:41,458 --> 02:03:43,000
And also don't forget you

1868
02:03:43,000 --> 02:03:45,041
can hit us up on spotify

1869
02:03:45,041 --> 02:03:46,458
You can get us on your favorite podcast

1870
02:03:46,458 --> 02:03:47,916
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1871
02:03:47,916 --> 02:03:49,500
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1872
02:03:49,500 --> 02:03:51,250
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1873
02:03:51,250 --> 02:03:53,291
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1874
02:03:53,291 --> 02:03:54,958
subscribe to that or follow depending on

1875
02:03:54,958 --> 02:03:55,833
what they ask you to do

1876
02:03:56,083 --> 02:03:58,041
So you don't miss any other episode, but

1877
02:03:58,041 --> 02:03:59,500
that's it for today's episode of the how

1878
02:03:59,500 --> 02:04:00,375
to protect the ocean podcast

1879
02:04:00,375 --> 02:04:01,833
I'm your host. Andrew lewin from the true

1880
02:04:01,833 --> 02:04:03,708
north strong and free. Enjoy your day.

1881
02:04:03,708 --> 02:04:05,625
Have a great one and happy conservation