The State of Tuna Fishing: What You Need to Know

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Today's episode is going to be focused on fisheries management. So

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we're going to find out about tuna, folks. It's going to be a really great episode to

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say, hey, look, what's going on with tuna fishing? Should

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we be eating tuna? Should we not be eating tuna? What type of tuna should

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we be eating? How many species are fished? We're gonna find out

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all about that because we have Dr.

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Victor Restrepo, who is from the International

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Seafood Sustainability Foundation, the ISSF. They've

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just released a report called Snapshot of Large-Scale Tuna

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Per Seine Fishing Vessels, or Fleets, that just

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came out in June 2024. I've been working with them to get a podcast episode

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out to talk about sort of the number of vessels that have changed

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you know, how many are out there, where they're from, what country

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they're flying. So you're going to hear all about fishing and just the intricacies of

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fishing and what needs to be monitored and what needs to be done to

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actually get a better fishing overall. And

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Victor is on the podcast to talk about that. We talk a lot

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about things like what he thinks should happen, how surprised he's

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that there hasn't been a really increase in vessels, but also he's kind

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of disappointed there hasn't been a decrease in vessels. It's going to be really cool to

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hear all about tuna fishing. So that's what we're going to do today on today's

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episode. Let's start the show. Hey

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everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm

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your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the

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ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, and what you can do to live for

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a better ocean by taking action. And on today's episode,

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just like a lot of our other episodes, knowledge is power. You're

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here to find out how you can protect the ocean. That's why I named the

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podcast the way it's named. And we're going to find out.

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We're going to find out how to protect the ocean when it comes to tuna fishing

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and tuna fisheries in general. Dr. Victor Restrepo is

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on the podcast today. He's been involved in tuna fisheries

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management from 1992 to the present day. He

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knows a ton about the industry. He's seen how

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He has a lot of knowledge and experience within the tuna fishing

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industry and science. kind

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of what his, he sees where the industry needs to

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go to really help and how processing companies

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like tuna processing companies are really at the forefront of

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helping make science part of fisheries management

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more and more and more. So we're going to talk all about that today.

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I'm really, really excited for you to hear this interview.

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And if you want, I'm going to be putting up links to the report. I'm going

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to put links to the organization so that you can get more information on

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the International Seafood Sustainability Foundation. But in the meantime, here

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is the interview with Dr. Restrepo talking about the

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report, Snapshot of Large-Scale Tuna Per Seine Fishing

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Fleets. It's a really long title, but it's

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a great report and it's a great interview. So enjoy, and I

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will talk to you after. Hey, Victor. Welcome to the How to

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Right on. Let's do this. This is going to be a lot of fun. I'm

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really looking forward to this. We're going to be talking about a specific report here

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with you, Victor, that came out in June of this year, of 2024. It's

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called Snapshot of Large-Scale Tuna Per Seine

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Fishing Fleets. This is gonna be a really interesting report, just

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kind of an update on what's happening with the tuna fishing.

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And so we're gonna get an update on number of vessels that are

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there, how much is actually being taken, what kind of conservation measures are there

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that's gonna happen and happening right now. It's gonna be really great.

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I'm really, really excited for it. But before we get into that, Victor, why don't

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Okay, my name is Victor Restrepo. I have a PhD from

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the University of Miami on stock assessment methods

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and I have been involved in tuna science since about

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1991. I have a lot of experience in

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the U.S. government with NOAA at the University of Miami and

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also internationally in the so-called Tuna Regional

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Fishery Management Organizations or RFMOs in short. I've

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been involved with them since 1999 or

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Okay, so you've seen quite a lot of changes over

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your time, you know, during this time. I mean, tuna fishing has

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been, you know, it feels like it's been going up and down. This is

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not me citing any data or anything like that, but it just feels in

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the news, like sometimes there's some tuna fish that are on the brink of extinction, other

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times they're doing well. Can you kind of give us like a little bit

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of a snapshot over your time what you've seen in

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terms of tuna fishing in general? I know there's a lot of species and

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I know that's kind of a loaded question to ask, but there's sort

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Yeah, no, I think that's an excellent question, Andrew. Bluefin

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tuna, there are three species of bluefin tuna in

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23 stocks of major commercial tunas. And they account

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for only 1% of the catch. But

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they account for 99% of the noise. So

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a lot of the words, when you hear the word extinction or

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something like that, it's usually a bluefin tuna stock that

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the media or whoever is talking about. And

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they have been overfished in the past because bluefin tuna in

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the sashimi market is one of the most expensive fishes.

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An individual bluefin could cost $70,000 or $100,000. So

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they have been the subject of illegal fishing and

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very, very high fishing pressure. But I have seen that turn

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around since about 2009. There

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have been major changes in the management of the bluefin tunas

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of the world. I would say that the situation is

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not totally out

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of danger completely, but all of the stocks have

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turned around one way or the other. The

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Interesting. That's really interesting. You've been a

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part of this for quite some time. When you worked for NOAA, Were

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you just working on American species? Because I

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know with NOAA, they tend to work with other countries

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internationally, like in the Pacific, I know that they look at you

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know, with sharks they look at different sort of regions with like RMO,

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RMFOs, RMOs? Sorry, I forgot. RFMOs, they

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look at different RFMOs like in the Pacific. Is

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that the same thing with tuna when

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No, it was just like that, but it was more in the

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Atlantic. So there are five tuna

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or FMOs. There are two in the Pacific, one

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in the Atlantic, one in the Indian Ocean, and one in the Southern Hemisphere.

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And I used to work for the Atlantic one, both in

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the Secretariat and with NOAA as a U.S. scientist that

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Gotcha. And that was just not

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one species of bluefin. It was all the tuna that were involved

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there, right? Right. Absolutely. OK. And from

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a term of fishing gear, can you just explain to

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the audience how tuna are typically fished?

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Yes, the major fishing

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method for all tunas is purse seining. This

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is basically a boat that makes a set around

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a school of tunas and they close the

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bottom of the net, that's the purse, and then they haul it

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out and take the catch. And the

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majority of the catch by porcelainers is

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of so-called tropical tunas. There are three species, skimjack

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tuna, bigeye tuna, and yellowfin tuna. And

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if you like to eat tuna in a can, chances

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are it was caught by porcelaining. On

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a few occasions they are caught by longliners, which are baited hooks,

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but that's really only for albacore tuna. Most

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Okay, okay. Now, with purse seining, from my

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understanding in the past, and again, I'm not so familiar with this

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subject matter, which is why I'm happy to have you on, my

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understanding is that purse seining, in some cases, have allowed

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other animals to get in as bycatch, in particular dolphins. Now,

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when you look at a can, it says dolphin-free. tuna catching.

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Can you just talk a little bit about how that all came to be and

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what's the status of purse seining when it comes to bycatch

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All tuna fishing gears have

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some level of bycatch. Maybe not harpooning or

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something like that, that is very specific, but everything

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else takes bycatch. And in fact, longline fisheries

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take a lot more bycatch than person fisheries do. But

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the mix of species that they take is different. When

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it comes to dolphins, this is really a phenomenon that

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mostly happens in the Eastern Pacific Ocean, where dolphins

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associate with tunas, and the two

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schools kind of mix together. Oh, I see. And there are

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some Persian vessels, not U.S. vessels, you

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know, from some other flags that are

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very good at spotting the dolphins from very far away using helicopters and

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other sites. And they know that if they find dolphins, they'll find tuna.

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So they catch both and they let the dolphins go,

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although some of them die sometimes, and then they

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keep the tuna catch. But that's really only in the

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Eastern Pacific Ocean. It's not a practice that occurs

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OK. It seems as though, you know, when we, you

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know, and again, I hear this from the media a

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lot of the time. So it seems like we talk about, you know, tuna fishing

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and we talk about, you know, over fish stocks. We talk about the whole

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dolphin issue that happens. It seems like a lot of times

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that gets grouped in with all tuna fishing, you know,

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from the people who consume it or people who are

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talking about it because they get it confused with, you know,

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Eastern Pacific fishing where you have, you know, dolphin associations

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and then, you know, just a small percentage of the total

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catch of tuna. is bluefin tuna, and you're just like, hey,

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that's not even that much, and it's very small. Why

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do you think that is? Why do you think it gets so

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confusing when we talk about the communication of

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Well, things are complicated, and one

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of the things that we try to do in ISSF is to explain

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complicated things in ways that are easier to

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understand. But I have to admit that

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I don't think we can ever explain something in one sentence,

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because that's not such a thing. But

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bad news are very easy to say in one sentence. It's

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very difficult to describe something that is

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quite complex in just a few words. But

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if you put it as bad news, it's quite

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easy. So that's the difficulty that we face all of the time. Thank

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goodness we have very, very good communications people working with us.

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So I'm a scientist, I'm a little bit complicated myself. I

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try to simplify things as much as I can, but I

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can only go so far. And then our communications people

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are just magnificent at taking where I leave it

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and taking it to the next step in simplifying it with

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Yeah, I feel, I completely agree with you. I feel when it comes to communication, it

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can be very difficult to sort of separate the

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ifs and the buts from our results as

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scientists. You have these scientists, but then there's always

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a caveat, and there's always something else, and there's always some

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external sort of force coming in to make

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it even more complicated and stuff. So I think it's

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really interesting, and I completely agree with you. It's never an easy byline to

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just put out being like, hey, tuna are doing great, or tuna are not doing

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so great. And so forth so I think that's that's really anything

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with that said we're talking about this report snapshot of large-scale

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tuna purse seine fishing fleets Now this is

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like a fleet. That's that's monitored and a report I

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understand one came out in 2023 in June and this

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one came out in June 2024 so this is an annual report that

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looks at these this type of Commercial

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Yes, we have updated that report 12 times altogether. So

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we started in 2012 or something like that. And

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each year we look at the, well,

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we use different sources of data. One of them is

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the list of vessels that are authorized in every RFMO. But

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we also use other types of information. And

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a lot of changes happen between one year and the next when it

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comes to vessels. They change flags. They change

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names. They change the radio call

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sign. They change many things. They move to other oceans and

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so on. And so we keep track of that. There

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are also some vessels that sink, some that are scrapped, some

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new ones are built, and so on. So our job is to make

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that snapshot around June every year. Okay.

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And what's the reason for vessels, obviously

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vessels that are scrapped and obviously sink, that's dangerous, it's the

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danger of being in the ocean all the time. What

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would be the advantage or the reason for boats changing

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flags or changing countries where they originate from? Is

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it just they get bought over or what's the reasoning for

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I think in most cases it's because they have more

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access to the resources because the particular country that

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they're reflying to has, let's say, a

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quota or a number of fishing days that they

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can use to basically have a

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joint venture with a vessel loader and then reflag the

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vessel. And so it's business convenience, I

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Okay, I got you. And now these are all legally registered

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vessels that you're looking at.

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There are cases of illegal fishing, but this report focuses

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00:15:22,525 --> 00:15:25,657
on the ones that you can track, the ones that you know. are

234
00:15:25,757 --> 00:15:29,401
there and the differences. You say there's changes

235
00:15:29,461 --> 00:15:33,046
between the number of boats, the

236
00:15:33,086 --> 00:15:36,630
capacity and all that. So out of this year, let's say compared to

237
00:15:36,690 --> 00:15:40,115
last year, what were the major differences in the number of

238
00:15:42,875 --> 00:15:46,177
I don't remember all of the details of

239
00:15:46,257 --> 00:15:49,559
how, but I think that the numbers didn't change much. But there were

240
00:15:49,579 --> 00:15:53,021
a lot of changes, like there were additions, and there were deletions, and

241
00:15:53,041 --> 00:15:56,182
there was reflagging. But overall, they

242
00:15:56,222 --> 00:15:59,524
stayed around 650 vessels. Now, we're

243
00:15:59,544 --> 00:16:02,866
talking about very large vessels. We're talking

244
00:16:02,886 --> 00:16:06,207
about vessels that can carry more

245
00:16:06,227 --> 00:16:09,469
than 400 tons of tuna in a year trip.

246
00:16:10,669 --> 00:16:14,071
Usually, they're vessels larger than 55 or

247
00:16:14,531 --> 00:16:18,093
60 meters long. So, they're not

248
00:16:18,113 --> 00:16:21,354
that easy to hide. They're not

249
00:16:21,394 --> 00:16:24,935
that easy to become illegal. Right, of course. They

250
00:16:24,955 --> 00:16:28,336
are monitored by different means. They are insured. They're

251
00:16:28,376 --> 00:16:32,318
super expensive vessels. One of these new vessels could cost 30 or

252
00:16:35,939 --> 00:16:39,140
Wow, okay. And then plus the crew and everything like

253
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,765
that, like you're looking at. a fairly significant business

254
00:16:43,905 --> 00:16:47,230
operation happening with these vessels. Okay.

255
00:16:47,811 --> 00:16:51,116
And then now for the monitoring of, you know, to ensure that they're

256
00:16:51,136 --> 00:16:55,203
catching the right catch and so forth, are there fisheries observers on these ships?

257
00:16:56,445 --> 00:16:59,687
On porcinius, in every ocean for

258
00:16:59,787 --> 00:17:04,611
tropical tuna porcinius, which is what we're talking about in that report, there

259
00:17:04,711 --> 00:17:08,073
are observers 100% of the time

260
00:17:08,473 --> 00:17:11,715
on these vessels, except in the Indian Ocean. The Indian

261
00:17:11,776 --> 00:17:15,897
Ocean only requires 5%. coverage, but

262
00:17:16,257 --> 00:17:20,398
most of the vessel owners have voluntarily agreed

263
00:17:20,438 --> 00:17:23,719
to 100% as well, in some cases because the

264
00:17:27,460 --> 00:17:31,860
Gotcha. So there's like the people who they're selling to require 100% coverage

265
00:17:32,421 --> 00:17:35,761
for observers. Exactly. Okay. That's good. That's good to hear. That's

266
00:17:35,801 --> 00:17:39,342
nice that they're going kind of above and beyond what they're supposed to. It's

267
00:17:39,362 --> 00:17:43,050
nice that other sort of lines within the supply chain

268
00:17:43,190 --> 00:17:46,352
are demanding that. So that's always nice. So

269
00:17:46,392 --> 00:17:50,476
what can you tell me about this report in terms of sort

270
00:17:50,516 --> 00:17:53,878
of results that you've seen, changes you've seen, either from last

271
00:17:53,918 --> 00:17:57,001
year or that you've noticed that kind of stood out to

272
00:17:59,582 --> 00:18:03,385
Well, one of the things that I have noticed is

273
00:18:03,445 --> 00:18:06,708
frustrating because it hasn't changed. It's not so

274
00:18:06,748 --> 00:18:10,130
much about the change that I'm going to talk about, but about something that hasn't changed,

275
00:18:10,290 --> 00:18:14,053
and that is that many of the vessels are authorized

276
00:18:14,093 --> 00:18:17,256
to fish in several RFMOs during the

277
00:18:17,296 --> 00:18:20,979
same year. They don't necessarily fish in

278
00:18:21,179 --> 00:18:24,401
several, in two or more RFMOs, but they're authorized to fish

279
00:18:24,441 --> 00:18:30,165
in two or more of the RFMOs. So it's difficult to

280
00:18:30,365 --> 00:18:33,587
envisage a system where that fishing capacity could

281
00:18:33,607 --> 00:18:37,529
be managed globally, because there are no restricted

282
00:18:37,629 --> 00:18:41,251
vessel records in each of the RFMOs, which is something

283
00:18:41,271 --> 00:18:44,673
that I find frustrating. And it would be ideal if

284
00:18:44,713 --> 00:18:48,315
they could control the floodgates, let's say, of vessels

285
00:18:48,355 --> 00:18:51,697
that could move easily from one ocean to the other, or one ocean

286
00:18:53,030 --> 00:18:56,273
Because there's a period where you could have a number of vessels in

287
00:18:56,553 --> 00:18:59,696
one RFMO instead of spreading them out

288
00:18:59,816 --> 00:19:03,019
over, like restrict them only to certain RFMOs, because

289
00:19:03,059 --> 00:19:06,442
maybe there's more of a concentration of tuna in that area.

290
00:19:09,951 --> 00:19:13,172
Yeah, I'm concerned that there

291
00:19:13,212 --> 00:19:16,833
are too many porcelainers already that

292
00:19:16,973 --> 00:19:20,594
can catch, I mean, the catch that they make, they could make easily

293
00:19:20,674 --> 00:19:23,894
with maybe half of the number of vessels that are

294
00:19:23,974 --> 00:19:28,955
out there. So it's not only an economic inefficiency, it's

295
00:19:29,015 --> 00:19:32,616
waste, you know, and that overcapacity is always

296
00:19:32,996 --> 00:19:36,677
a pressure point for fishing harder and fishing harder

297
00:19:37,497 --> 00:19:40,699
and then requiring more regulations. It's

298
00:19:41,059 --> 00:19:44,742
just making everything more difficult, and I wish we could manage capacity

299
00:19:44,762 --> 00:19:48,044
globally in a meaningful way, but having these

300
00:19:51,027 --> 00:19:55,370
Yeah, agreed. With that said, does

301
00:19:59,063 --> 00:20:02,284
It depends on the RFMO. Some of them,

302
00:20:04,184 --> 00:20:07,485
the flag state usually has a number of fishing days assigned

303
00:20:07,505 --> 00:20:10,806
to them or a quota assigned to them. And then it's that

304
00:20:10,846 --> 00:20:14,627
country that subdivides that catch quota

305
00:20:15,107 --> 00:20:18,428
or the number of fishing days into the different vessels that make

306
00:20:18,528 --> 00:20:22,090
up their fisheries. The systems are

307
00:20:22,110 --> 00:20:25,232
quite different in all of the oceans. They're perhaps a

308
00:20:25,272 --> 00:20:28,914
little bit more similar in the Indian and Atlantic oceans, but

309
00:20:32,236 --> 00:20:35,478
Yeah, it's interesting, too, because if you think about it, if

310
00:20:35,658 --> 00:20:39,801
one boat has access to a number of different RFMOs, then

311
00:20:39,841 --> 00:20:43,103
they can go into one, fish their quota, and then go

312
00:20:43,243 --> 00:20:46,405
back into another and fish their other quota. And then if

313
00:20:46,445 --> 00:20:49,892
they can go to another, they can continue to fish. which almost

314
00:20:53,795 --> 00:20:57,737
Yeah, I think it depends a lot on the flag state

315
00:20:58,138 --> 00:21:01,520
that has to regulate them. And the flag state has to decide if

316
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,142
they do give them permission or not to move to different

317
00:21:05,162 --> 00:21:08,604
RFMOs during the same year. If they can manage that

318
00:21:10,725 --> 00:21:14,168
They will, yeah. But because some vessels

319
00:21:14,228 --> 00:21:17,898
have access to a number of different ones, Can

320
00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,242
one country that has control over that, or the

321
00:21:21,262 --> 00:21:25,447
countries that have control over their FMO, can they tell what each

322
00:21:29,191 --> 00:21:32,555
If they belong to their flag, yes. Otherwise, generally not.

323
00:21:38,278 --> 00:21:42,800
the catches are only known in the aggregate for

324
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:46,541
an entire country. An entire country and fishing

325
00:21:46,601 --> 00:21:49,882
type. So you might know what the catch by U.S.

326
00:21:50,723 --> 00:21:54,204
flag pursuers was in the Western Pacific

327
00:21:54,264 --> 00:21:57,786
last year, but you won't know what each individual

328
00:21:59,426 --> 00:22:03,188
Right, because they could go over to the different... How

329
00:22:03,248 --> 00:22:06,668
do we get a regulation or how do we get

330
00:22:07,388 --> 00:22:10,950
countries to only allow their flagship to,

331
00:22:10,970 --> 00:22:14,351
you know, catch in one RFMO? How

332
00:22:18,070 --> 00:22:21,553
I don't think that it necessarily has to happen like that. Okay. But

333
00:22:21,653 --> 00:22:27,617
I think it has to happen in an agreed management

334
00:22:27,637 --> 00:22:31,240
situation where all of the countries decide how to go about it collectively.

335
00:22:32,161 --> 00:22:35,723
So I don't think it's so much something that one individual country

336
00:22:35,803 --> 00:22:39,426
can accomplish. It's a collective effort. Got

337
00:22:39,726 --> 00:22:44,049
And are there committees or are there sort

338
00:22:44,089 --> 00:22:47,392
of collaborations where countries get together to talk about tuna catches?

339
00:22:48,492 --> 00:22:52,393
Only within an RFMO currently. So that's

340
00:22:52,413 --> 00:22:55,574
what they do. Basically, the RFMOs have a

341
00:22:55,634 --> 00:22:58,915
scientific committee structure. And then on top

342
00:22:58,955 --> 00:23:02,716
of that, they have a political decision-making structure. And

343
00:23:02,756 --> 00:23:06,237
that's basically all they do. But they cannot

344
00:23:06,318 --> 00:23:09,538
work between RFMOs at the same time,

345
00:23:10,659 --> 00:23:14,240
with several RFMOs. They only do it within one, one at a time. That's interesting.

346
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,386
So it's almost like they're just siloed into these different countries

347
00:23:18,426 --> 00:23:21,670
in RFMOs. Interesting. OK. What else

348
00:23:21,951 --> 00:23:25,556
from that report stood out to you as

349
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,242
Well, I'm surprised that the number of vessels has

350
00:23:32,282 --> 00:23:35,524
not increased a lot over these

351
00:23:35,584 --> 00:23:41,266
last 12 years. I mean, it has hovered around 640 to

352
00:23:43,908 --> 00:23:47,890
670 all of this time. So that's good.

353
00:23:47,930 --> 00:23:51,131
I wish that they had decreased somehow, but at least

354
00:23:54,653 --> 00:23:59,497
And what do you think the reasons for that is? I

355
00:23:59,517 --> 00:24:02,999
mean, it's expensive to have these boats. Is it

356
00:24:03,159 --> 00:24:06,542
more of there's not enough catch out there, there's not enough interest out

357
00:24:06,562 --> 00:24:10,004
there? It seems like Tuna's very popular. So what do you think the reason

358
00:24:10,044 --> 00:24:13,926
why it hasn't ballooned out to above 270? I mean,

359
00:24:13,946 --> 00:24:17,809
I think I'm looking at numbers here. I just found the numbers from last year was

360
00:24:18,109 --> 00:24:21,571
650, this year was 652. So not much difference when

361
00:24:21,591 --> 00:24:24,673
you look at the range that you just mentioned. Why do

362
00:24:28,662 --> 00:24:32,345
I think it's partly costs. It's partly

363
00:24:33,046 --> 00:24:36,749
limited resources. I mean, they have quotas in

364
00:24:36,789 --> 00:24:40,171
place or limits in the number of days

365
00:24:40,251 --> 00:24:43,514
and so on. So I

366
00:24:43,574 --> 00:24:48,358
guess I'm not an expert in economics of

367
00:24:48,398 --> 00:24:51,681
fishing vessels, but I guess they must do the math and

368
00:24:51,701 --> 00:24:56,665
figure out that it's a tremendous investment for

369
00:24:56,685 --> 00:24:59,967
that type of activity. There are also regulations in

370
00:25:00,007 --> 00:25:04,030
place that are not necessarily from the RFMOs, like, for example, ISSF

371
00:25:04,890 --> 00:25:08,252
has a number of conservation measures, and

372
00:25:08,532 --> 00:25:12,255
one of them has to do with new fishing capacity,

373
00:25:12,375 --> 00:25:16,057
like new vessels being constructed without scrapping

374
00:25:16,757 --> 00:25:20,380
old vessels. So all of the processing companies

375
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,742
that work with us, they are committed to only source tuna

376
00:25:24,342 --> 00:25:28,147
from porcelainers, that meets the criteria of

377
00:25:28,187 --> 00:25:31,333
that conservation measure. So it's not

378
00:25:31,373 --> 00:25:34,779
only the RFMOs, it's also other

379
00:25:34,979 --> 00:25:38,325
conservation driven forces from the markets.

380
00:25:39,894 --> 00:25:43,136
Now, I probably should have asked this right at the beginning, but you do work

381
00:25:43,176 --> 00:25:46,499
for the International Seafood Sustainability Foundation, and

382
00:25:46,539 --> 00:25:50,782
it sounds like you guys are connecting the

383
00:25:50,842 --> 00:25:54,025
tuna fishing industry with the

384
00:25:54,125 --> 00:25:57,488
right guidance for tuna fishing

385
00:25:57,528 --> 00:26:01,131
in general or just seafood in general. Can you just talk about the purpose

386
00:26:01,371 --> 00:26:04,633
of the ISSF and how it works

387
00:26:08,657 --> 00:26:13,281
That's a long question. But

388
00:26:13,541 --> 00:26:16,963
basically what we do is everything

389
00:26:17,044 --> 00:26:21,427
is science-driven at some point. Science

390
00:26:21,447 --> 00:26:24,649
is where we start. And it has to do

391
00:26:24,689 --> 00:26:27,972
a lot with the status of the stocks. and, you

392
00:26:28,012 --> 00:26:32,855
know, what conservation measures we can try

393
00:26:32,935 --> 00:26:36,797
to use to influence the fishing industry to reduce bycatch,

394
00:26:36,897 --> 00:26:40,680
to reduce other environmental impacts, to reduce the

395
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,542
use of fish aggregating devices. These are something

396
00:26:44,582 --> 00:26:48,646
that porciniers use a lot to attract to us. fish

397
00:26:48,666 --> 00:26:52,271
aggregated devices that are not biodegradable, for example,

398
00:26:52,471 --> 00:26:55,736
or that are entangling. So we

399
00:26:55,776 --> 00:26:59,261
have a number of conservation measures that

400
00:26:59,762 --> 00:27:02,906
the participating companies that work with us are

401
00:27:02,926 --> 00:27:06,629
committed to follow. Now the conservation measures are adopted by

402
00:27:06,649 --> 00:27:09,932
the ISSF board, which

403
00:27:10,012 --> 00:27:15,176
is composed by a mix of different people, including scientists,

404
00:27:15,196 --> 00:27:18,458
people from environmental NGOs, people closer to

405
00:27:18,478 --> 00:27:22,862
the fishing industry, and so on. So it's a good spread of

406
00:27:22,902 --> 00:27:26,124
people that make those decisions. And then the

407
00:27:26,184 --> 00:27:30,187
participating companies have to follow those

408
00:27:33,136 --> 00:27:37,162
OK, OK. And so how do you attract these companies?

409
00:27:37,182 --> 00:27:40,427
Do you have people within the

410
00:27:40,467 --> 00:27:43,712
organization that goes out and builds those relationships with the different companies within

411
00:27:46,545 --> 00:27:50,027
These are processing companies that we're talking about, not fishing companies. Sorry,

412
00:27:50,247 --> 00:27:54,049
processing companies, yeah. And the universe of processing companies

413
00:27:54,469 --> 00:27:58,631
is not huge compared to the universe of fishing vessels. Gotcha,

414
00:27:58,951 --> 00:28:03,093
okay. It's a much smaller universe.

415
00:28:03,573 --> 00:28:07,374
Basically, I understand that when ISSF was born, I

416
00:28:07,415 --> 00:28:12,177
wasn't there back in 2008 or 2009, there

417
00:28:12,217 --> 00:28:15,580
was already a group of processing companies that were very

418
00:28:15,620 --> 00:28:19,123
much aligned in saying we need the

419
00:28:19,243 --> 00:28:22,546
RFMOs to pay more attention to the science. We need

420
00:28:23,006 --> 00:28:26,710
things to be more scientifically sound. So I think that coalition already

421
00:28:26,770 --> 00:28:30,253
existed back then with a large number

422
00:28:31,372 --> 00:28:35,214
Yeah, you know, it's it's really interesting. I've been getting involved

423
00:28:35,594 --> 00:28:38,796
in, you know, people have been coming to me for to share stories, or

424
00:28:38,816 --> 00:28:42,148
I've seen stories online that I've wanted to cover on. on

425
00:28:42,168 --> 00:28:45,709
the podcast and it's very interesting when a new issue

426
00:28:45,749 --> 00:28:48,830
has arisen, you know, that people are discovering and

427
00:28:48,850 --> 00:28:52,091
they're researching and so forth and they're trying to put,

428
00:28:52,371 --> 00:28:56,153
you know, something together, trying to have like a call to action together. The

429
00:28:56,193 --> 00:28:59,414
first thing I look for is like, is there anybody out there that's part of the

430
00:28:59,494 --> 00:29:02,635
industry that's willing to, you know, stand up and

431
00:29:03,255 --> 00:29:06,656
have these values where they want to protect whatever they're,

432
00:29:06,876 --> 00:29:10,537
like in your case, it would be the processors that want to protect the

433
00:29:10,577 --> 00:29:13,720
fish that they're processing. They want to make sure it's sustainable for the

434
00:29:13,740 --> 00:29:17,003
years to come. So they have these values where they get together. And as

435
00:29:17,043 --> 00:29:20,326
you mentioned, before the ISSF was born, they had these kind of committees like,

436
00:29:20,366 --> 00:29:23,609
we need to do something better. Here comes the ISSF being

437
00:29:23,629 --> 00:29:27,132
like, hey, we'll help you do that. We'll help you follow the science. We'll help,

438
00:29:27,493 --> 00:29:31,256
you know, research and do the science on it so that you can make better decisions.

439
00:29:32,077 --> 00:29:36,877
How important for you as a scientist do you think it is when companies,

440
00:29:37,138 --> 00:29:40,580
even the processors, have these values that they want

441
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,843
to be like, we need to follow the science more. How important is that to

442
00:29:45,785 --> 00:29:49,027
It's very important. I have been involved, like I said,

443
00:29:49,127 --> 00:29:52,590
with RFMOS for many, many years, usually as

444
00:29:52,630 --> 00:29:57,054
a scientist, but then also going to the more political decision-making

445
00:29:57,114 --> 00:30:00,616
meetings. And over time, I have seen a big

446
00:30:00,697 --> 00:30:04,292
change about who makes

447
00:30:04,432 --> 00:30:07,796
up the delegations of the different member countries to

448
00:30:07,816 --> 00:30:11,119
the RFMOs. And when I first started, it

449
00:30:11,159 --> 00:30:15,243
was largely the fishing industry themselves.

450
00:30:16,084 --> 00:30:19,387
And the RFMOs are all about flag state responsibilities. So

451
00:30:19,427 --> 00:30:23,290
they were very directly linked to

452
00:30:23,711 --> 00:30:27,675
whatever activities were going to be managed. And

453
00:30:27,775 --> 00:30:31,178
over time, I have seen a lot more involvement from

454
00:30:31,239 --> 00:30:34,702
the processing sector and even from the marketing sector. And

455
00:30:34,762 --> 00:30:38,646
now you have, in the RFMOs, you have letters that

456
00:30:38,726 --> 00:30:41,870
are signed requesting the

457
00:30:41,910 --> 00:30:45,394
Commission to do something like adopting high-risk control

458
00:30:45,434 --> 00:30:48,937
rules or other types of management measures that are more

459
00:30:48,977 --> 00:30:52,440
modern. And these letters

460
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,583
are signed by 120 or 150 different groups,

461
00:30:56,803 --> 00:31:01,146
including processors, and fishing associations, and

462
00:31:01,166 --> 00:31:04,848
environmental NGOs, people from universities. And

463
00:31:04,928 --> 00:31:09,071
so it's really amazing how the advocacy has

464
00:31:11,313 --> 00:31:14,595
That's awesome. That's great to hear. Now, obviously, we still have a lot

465
00:31:14,615 --> 00:31:18,316
of work to do in terms of conserving these wonderful fish

466
00:31:18,596 --> 00:31:21,881
and just making sure that all stakeholders are

467
00:31:22,342 --> 00:31:27,550
included and there's a lot more voices at the table. Where

468
00:31:27,930 --> 00:31:33,417
do you see the industry moving in the future? optimistic

469
00:31:33,857 --> 00:31:37,158
about tuna fishing in the future based on, you know, sort

470
00:31:37,178 --> 00:31:40,359
of how things have changed so far and sort of who's involved at

471
00:31:40,399 --> 00:31:43,600
the decision-making level and who wants to be involved? Are

472
00:31:43,620 --> 00:31:47,061
you optimistic of the future or do you still think we have a

473
00:31:49,862 --> 00:31:53,523
Well, the ton of work will never go away. Fisheries

474
00:31:53,623 --> 00:31:56,763
management is a very tedious thing and it's

475
00:31:56,823 --> 00:32:00,305
complicated like we were talking about before. But there

476
00:32:00,345 --> 00:32:03,666
are more players on the table now, before it was all

477
00:32:03,866 --> 00:32:07,428
the RFMO members and what they could do as flag states.

478
00:32:08,169 --> 00:32:11,610
Now you have other things, you have other pressure

479
00:32:11,650 --> 00:32:15,072
points, like the case of ISSF. Or

480
00:32:15,212 --> 00:32:18,594
you have fisheries that want to be certified by the Maria

481
00:32:18,614 --> 00:32:22,116
Stewardship Council, for example. That's another

482
00:32:22,796 --> 00:32:26,720
way of bringing change about. And in fact, the

483
00:32:26,740 --> 00:32:30,983
Marine Stewardship Council requirements have

484
00:32:32,384 --> 00:32:36,007
pushed the RFMOs to make a lot of changes so that their

485
00:32:36,027 --> 00:32:39,590
regulations fit within the MSC system

486
00:32:40,371 --> 00:32:43,674
in a better way. It's not just the RFMOs that

487
00:32:43,714 --> 00:32:47,837
are working at it alone now. There's a series of activities ongoing

488
00:32:49,053 --> 00:32:52,395
And let's be honest, better guidance. You have more people

489
00:32:52,415 --> 00:32:55,977
at the table. You have a lot more experts at the table that are looking at various

490
00:32:56,257 --> 00:32:59,479
angles of fisheries management, which we

491
00:32:59,539 --> 00:33:02,901
know is a big deal. And so it's nice to see that we're

492
00:33:02,962 --> 00:33:06,424
getting more and more people involved, better guidance

493
00:33:06,544 --> 00:33:09,966
for different aspects of the industry. And

494
00:33:10,006 --> 00:33:13,268
so we can move forward in a great way. One thing that I always

495
00:33:13,428 --> 00:33:16,675
ask, sort of at the end as we talk

496
00:33:16,735 --> 00:33:20,478
about, you know, large sort of management decisions, is

497
00:33:20,558 --> 00:33:23,860
how can like, you know, people, I have people in my audience who want to help the ocean,

498
00:33:23,900 --> 00:33:28,084
right? That's why they come to this, is how to protect the ocean. How

499
00:33:28,144 --> 00:33:32,987
do you think people, individuals, can get involved within

500
00:33:33,027 --> 00:33:36,330
the industry here and just kind of help out, you know, is it more

501
00:33:36,350 --> 00:33:40,094
of supporting the organizations that are involved? Getting more

502
00:33:40,414 --> 00:33:43,820
awareness involved like what would you recommend like if somebody asked

503
00:33:43,861 --> 00:33:47,146
you just off the street? How can I help? With tuna fishing

504
00:33:50,333 --> 00:33:53,535
Well, I would say that it's very important that we

505
00:33:53,575 --> 00:33:58,159
all become more knowledgeable about what's

506
00:33:58,199 --> 00:34:02,762
going on, even if the facts are complicated. And

507
00:34:03,723 --> 00:34:07,585
I would say education is the first thing. Now, if

508
00:34:07,625 --> 00:34:10,808
the person as a consumer wants to use

509
00:34:10,848 --> 00:34:14,110
that knowledge to make decisions about what tuna to

510
00:34:14,150 --> 00:34:17,352
purchase and what tuna not to purchase, for example, that's one

511
00:34:17,432 --> 00:34:21,576
way of helping out. and hopefully rewarding

512
00:34:22,317 --> 00:34:25,701
the fisheries that are doing very well their job.

513
00:34:26,382 --> 00:34:29,766
Yes. And not rewarding the ones that are not such good actors.

514
00:34:30,066 --> 00:34:33,450
So I think at the consumer level, that's probably the

515
00:34:33,470 --> 00:34:36,634
best thing. And of course, if they're wealthy, they could

516
00:34:40,330 --> 00:34:43,692
Absolutely. Absolutely. Victor, this has been, uh, such

517
00:34:43,712 --> 00:34:47,314
an amazing time. I appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to,

518
00:34:47,334 --> 00:34:50,996
uh, you know, letting us know, giving us a lot of information about

519
00:34:51,016 --> 00:34:54,338
the report, but also about tuna fisheries in general, uh,

520
00:34:54,398 --> 00:34:57,520
demystifying some of the things that I think we all think about. And, uh,

521
00:34:57,620 --> 00:35:01,022
it's just really nice to see the conservation work that you're doing

522
00:35:01,062 --> 00:35:04,284
as long with, you know, with the, the ISSF. Uh, and,

523
00:35:04,304 --> 00:35:07,686
uh, I look forward to having you back on the podcast to get more

524
00:35:09,660 --> 00:35:12,864
Thank you, Andrew. I'd be happy to. And I really thank you for your

525
00:35:15,127 --> 00:35:18,332
Very nice. Thank you. Thank you, Victor, for joining us here on the How

526
00:35:18,352 --> 00:35:21,916
to Protect the Ocean podcast. It was great to know that knowledge is

527
00:35:21,976 --> 00:35:25,976
power. I think it's so funny

528
00:35:26,296 --> 00:35:29,918
to be like, it's so complicated to protect

529
00:35:29,958 --> 00:35:33,740
the ocean. We talked about the complexities with Victor. He

530
00:35:33,780 --> 00:35:37,042
says you can't just do like a one by line on a headline and

531
00:35:37,082 --> 00:35:41,244
just be like, this is how you protect tuna fisheries. No, it's really difficult.

532
00:35:41,304 --> 00:35:44,766
It's complex. There are a lot of complexities from managing

533
00:35:44,806 --> 00:35:48,227
different countries' interests, to managing different

534
00:35:48,407 --> 00:35:51,808
companies' interests, to managing different companies and different

535
00:35:51,868 --> 00:35:55,409
sort of functions within the supply chain, and everything.

536
00:35:55,809 --> 00:35:59,250
But it's been great to see how people have gotten more knowledge on

537
00:35:59,290 --> 00:36:03,311
these fisheries, and then they're able to contribute to

538
00:36:03,351 --> 00:36:07,272
the decision process. At the beginning, with these RFMOs, there

539
00:36:07,292 --> 00:36:10,353
was only tuna fishing boats. Now, there are a lot of

540
00:36:10,373 --> 00:36:13,895
different companies that are involved. There is the Marine Stewardship Council

541
00:36:13,915 --> 00:36:17,817
that's involved. There's the ISSF that's involved. There's other NGOs

542
00:36:17,837 --> 00:36:21,340
that are involved. And so people who are supporting these NGOs,

543
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,242
give them the power and give them the opportunity to be at the table for

544
00:36:25,302 --> 00:36:29,205
these decision-making opportunities so that they can have an

545
00:36:29,245 --> 00:36:32,707
influence on how tuna fishing is measured.

546
00:36:33,067 --> 00:36:36,869
I think it was also interesting how Victor talked about dolphins and

547
00:36:36,929 --> 00:36:40,190
tuna fish and how some dolphins have been able to get into tuna

548
00:36:40,210 --> 00:36:43,691
fish. But that's only in one fishery or a couple of fisheries on

549
00:36:43,711 --> 00:36:46,993
the Pacific East Coast, or the Eastern Pacific, sorry. And

550
00:36:47,033 --> 00:36:50,935
so I think that's interesting to hear. And other tuna

551
00:36:51,195 --> 00:36:54,576
fishing, they don't have that problem because the tuna and

552
00:36:54,596 --> 00:36:57,797
the dolphins are not associated together. It's just in one particular area, one

553
00:36:57,837 --> 00:37:01,120
particular part of the world. I think it's interesting how we

554
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,422
saw fishing fleets in the Indian Ocean

555
00:37:04,482 --> 00:37:07,905
having 100% coverage of fisheries

556
00:37:08,285 --> 00:37:11,508
observers when they only needed 5%. But because the

557
00:37:11,548 --> 00:37:15,058
processing companies demand that they have 100%, Now

558
00:37:15,098 --> 00:37:18,399
they do 100%. I think it's just interesting to show the influence that

559
00:37:18,439 --> 00:37:22,160
people have within the supply chain. And if your values are good, and

560
00:37:22,220 --> 00:37:25,621
you want to be sustainable, and you want to see this fishery happen

561
00:37:25,661 --> 00:37:29,102
for a long term, that you can have that. And it doesn't necessarily

562
00:37:29,122 --> 00:37:32,323
mean we have to completely shut down a fishery, as we can work

563
00:37:32,363 --> 00:37:35,885
within that and change. Unfortunately, change can be slow and

564
00:37:35,925 --> 00:37:40,207
that's where we need to really put more pressure on you know the different suggestions

565
00:37:40,247 --> 00:37:43,468
that scientists have and that policymakers have to make sure

566
00:37:43,508 --> 00:37:47,270
those policies go through and we get a better managed fishery and

567
00:37:47,290 --> 00:37:50,492
a more sustainable fishery. So again Victor thank you so

568
00:37:50,532 --> 00:37:54,254
much for joining us I'm going and I want to say I want to thank Taylor who

569
00:37:54,694 --> 00:37:57,796
was their communications person who set this all up and

570
00:37:57,836 --> 00:38:01,217
reached out to me at the beginning of the of the summer to get this set up. I

571
00:38:01,257 --> 00:38:04,979
want to thank her as well And I want to thank you for listening to this

572
00:38:05,019 --> 00:38:08,062
episode. I think it's a really interesting one. I think we're just kind of

573
00:38:08,102 --> 00:38:11,426
scratching the surface with this type of work. This is something I've

574
00:38:11,446 --> 00:38:15,170
been wanting to do for quite some time. Bring to light

575
00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:18,973
these reports, this information, so that you can make

576
00:38:19,014 --> 00:38:22,697
better decisions on how you want to protect the ocean. So I think that's really

577
00:38:22,737 --> 00:38:25,981
fun to do. Anyway if you want to leave a comment or have

578
00:38:26,001 --> 00:38:29,466
a question regarding this report or regarding this

579
00:38:29,586 --> 00:38:33,130
episode you can do so you can leave it on Spotify now they allow comments

580
00:38:33,571 --> 00:38:36,674
you can go to YouTube because this video will be on YouTube and of

581
00:38:36,714 --> 00:38:39,878
course you can reach out to me on I would

582
00:38:39,898 --> 00:38:58,265
love to hear from you. you

583
00:38:58,285 --> 00:39:02,128
know, how can I do this? I don't even know. It's so complicated. I don't know where to begin. This

584
00:39:02,188 --> 00:39:05,290
is the podcast really they need to be listening to. So send them the link and

585
00:39:05,330 --> 00:39:08,512
let have them listen, subscribe, follow whatever you'd like to do. Um,

586
00:39:09,213 --> 00:39:12,595
I think that would be great for me and it'd be great for you. It'd be great for the ocean. So

587
00:39:12,895 --> 00:39:16,257
thank you again for listening to this episode of the how to protect the ocean podcast. I'm

588
00:39:16,277 --> 00:39:19,840
your host, Andrew Lew and have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.