From Whales to Words: The Role of Environmental Communication in North Atlantic Right Whale Conservation

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A big part of conservation is how we get the message

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out when we identify a particular issue or when we identify something that's

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really great in the world of oceans is how do we get that

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message out and what the effect on people who

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are receiving that message is and how all

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the parts that go into putting a message together. And

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I'm really excited today to talk to Marcus Reamer,

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who's a PhD candidate at the University of Miami. He's

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studying environmental communication, especially when it comes down

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to North Atlantic right whales. We're going to be talking about

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all the things that happened over the last two decades in terms of

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communication, the types of communication that happen, especially within

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media around the North Atlantic right whales, And

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it's going to be a lot of fun. We're going to be talking about sort of how journalism, the

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way it could go compared to the way it does go in

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terms of when they cover conservation stories and conflict. So

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we're going to talk about a lot of really cool things. I can't wait for you to listen.

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Let's start the show with Marcus Reamer talking about environmental

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communication. Let's start that show. Hey

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everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm

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your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with

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the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, and what you can do to

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live for a better ocean by taking action. And

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I have to tell you, I am extremely excited to

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be talking to Marcus Reimer today. Not just because Marcus

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is doing his PhD on environmental communication, which is Something

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that I've always wanted to do or especially lately wanting to do but

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it's and we're just gonna get down and dirty into this

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Topic because communication especially science communication

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is not talked about enough in my opinion I know I like to

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talk about it because something I'm really really interested in but

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it's something that I feel like we all need to learn about because I

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It's not just communicators like Marcus and I that are going to be talking about oceans

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or directors of communications of different organizations,

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but it's going to be you. You and I as just people who

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are interested in protecting the ocean, how we are going to

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get those messages across to our family members, our friends, our

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colleagues, and to make sure that people are thinking and feeling connected

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to that ocean. That is where we

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need to go, not only with this podcast, but a lot of other different types

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of communication styles to get people to really

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understand the significance of protecting the ocean. So

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today, I had Marcus on because I wanted to talk to him

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about doing his PhD. And so we talked about all

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the different types of degrees he has. He has two masters, one PhD, an undergraduate degree,

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of course. And well, he's about to get a PhD, knock on wood.

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Hopefully about to get his PhD in about seven weeks of this recording. But,

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you know, I want to talk about that process, especially when it

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came to environmental communication, his thought process on it. But

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we also like at the end of like the last half of the episode, we really

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talk about communication. We really talk about that focus

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and how there are different stakeholders involved and how maybe in a

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in when an issue comes up like northern northern northern

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Atlantic right whales and like lobster fishers, that

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they're not the only two you know, people involved or organisms

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involved in this conflict. There are other people that are involved that will benefit

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from having these whales around. There are people who benefit

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from fishing with different gear. These are complex issues

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that need to be talked about, but it's really difficult to

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talk about all the complexities to an audience that just wants

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to know, hey, how do we fix this? How do we fix this quickly? It's never quickly, especially

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when it comes to marine science and conservation. And that's what we're going to get into with

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Marcus. Marcus Reamer talking about his

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dissertation and how we can communicate over

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issues such as, you know, the critically endangered and protecting the critically

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endangered Northern Atlantic right whale. We're gonna talk about

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that on this interview. Enjoy the interview and I will talk to

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you after. Hey Marcus, welcome to the How to Protect

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Andrew, I'm always ready to talk about environmental communication. Are

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Oh, I am ready. I've been looking forward to this episode ever since we

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met over LinkedIn. You know, you shared one of your,

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I believe it was one of your chapters of your dissertation that you're currently doing.

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on environmental communications surrounding the oceans. And

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I think the post was, if I remember correct, I've seen a lot of posts since.

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But I think it was about the North Atlantic right whale and

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sort of how communication was done around the management around that. And obviously, we've covered that

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on the podcast. So we're familiar with the situation in terms

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of entanglements and obviously, the critically endangered

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status of these whales and how shipping is related and

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all the challenges that they face. But I've never

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really talked about the communication and how communication plays such an

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important role in not only looking at endangered species, but

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other aspects of the ocean. And it's always

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great when I can connect with somebody who's also in communications,

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who's formally learning about communications at a university. I've just kind

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of flown by the seat of my pants and just kind of done it that way. But

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it's great to see and to be able to engage with somebody who's studying

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it right now and is doing a PhD on it. And

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then when we looked into it, we started talking before we press record, there's a lot of

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stuff to you in terms of like you have two masters, you know,

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you have a Bachelor of Science. And so we're gonna talk

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all about that and sort of like how you see communication fitting

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in, not only for like your career in the future, but just sort of

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in the environmental movement or, you know, whether it has to do with climate change or

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oceans, especially, and where that kind of fits in in the future

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for either yourself as well as just for the the movement in

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general and the conservation in general. So before we get to that, we're

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going to get to know you a little bit. So Marcus, why don't you just let us know who

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Sure. I am currently a PhD candidate at the University

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of Miami's Rosensteil School. I'm in the Department of

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Environmental Science and Policy, and I'm

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an Abbess Fellow at the Abbess Center, which is an interdisciplinary PhD

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program. I'm currently studying the

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role of communication and media in the context of

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whale and dolphin conservation. And that

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won't be true for much longer. Uh, we're recording this today, exactly

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seven weeks before my defense, which is pretty exciting. So

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hopefully by that time, yeah. Yeah. Hopefully

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a couple of months from now, I'll be able to say I am a PhD

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instead of candidate, but I am really fortunate to

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say that I've spent my entire career in ocean conservation.

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I started about 12 years ago in animal care

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and training where I spent a few years where I really found my

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interest in science and environmental communication. When

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I was, you know, talking to visitors from all over the world and

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sharing stories about our animals and how that relates

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to animals out in the ocean and what people can do to

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care for all of them. So, A

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few years into that career, I decided to go back to school. As you mentioned,

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I have a couple of master's degrees. Got my

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master of professional science from the university of Miami in

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marine conservation, where I really started to explore the

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idea of science communication about the ocean and

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graduated after the 2016 election. It was kind of an

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uncertain time for a lot of people and a weird time

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to be searching for a job. So I wanted to expand my skillset. And

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I found a really great program at the University of North Carolina, Chapel

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Hill, uh, in public administration with a focus on

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nonprofit management. So that's where that second master's comes in

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the, around the same time that I started that degree, I

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started working at a job in DC and did those two things together.

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So I've. Since I left animal care

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and training, I've worked in communication capacities for

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organizations like seven seas media. the National Marine Sanctuary

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Foundation outside of DC, and a consulting firm. And

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I also work part-time here at the Rosensteil School, where

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I share my own career story and

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experiences with students in our Master of

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Professional Science program, where I sort

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of help them explore different career paths, sort of like you

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were saying before, for people who

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might not know all that's out there or might want to try different things

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and figure out sort of where they want to land. So help them

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explore career paths and prepare for their required internships

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and postgraduate careers. So lots to

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work with here, but currently a PhD candidate,

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currently helping our master's students in one of our programs across

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14 tracks. And just really grateful to be here today and

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to be able to to share my perspective and

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Yeah. And I love, I just love the beginning of the story too, uh,

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where, you know, you, you're working a little bit and you

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kind of figure out, okay, this is what I really like to do before

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that. Let's like go back a little bit before that. Did you have a

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bachelor of science at that point or an undergrad degree,

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um, before you worked, uh,

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with the sort of the, the communications like the animal communications were the

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So I got my bachelor of arts in psychology, um,

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with, with the intent of working with animals.

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I kind of wanted to live out every four year old's dream and work with marine mammals

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and was really fortunate to land a job, you know,

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right out of college and did that for four or five

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years. So that, that was sort of always the plan was ocean

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animals. I grew up in central Maryland. Uh,

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my. parents own a seafood restaurant. And I remember

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distinctly from a, from a very young age, getting in trouble

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for trying to bring live blue crabs home to keep his pets. Um,

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and we, yeah, we, we traveled a

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lot to the Eastern shore of Maryland and the Delaware beaches. So

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the ocean's really just always been part of my life. And

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when I was eight years old, uh, a family friend, um,

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took me to the national aquarium in Baltimore and we were supposed to

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feed the sharks that day. That tour got canceled and

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I was kind of salty about it. And the backup plan was to

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go meet and interact with one of the dolphins during the show. And

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I can tell you pretty much everything about it to

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this day. So that was my inspiration. I was eight putting

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on the rubber boots and, you know, meeting a dolphin and giving

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hand signals, spelling fish. Um, in front of a stadium

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full of people, which was pretty cool. The dolphin was. Yeah.

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The dolphin was also eight. Her name was Chesapeake. Um, and

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what's really cool. I like that everything. And what's really cool

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is that when I was in animal care and training, I actually went back to

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the national aquarium to work with Chesapeake and her daughter,

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uh, in the Marine mammal pavilion. So it was really cool. Yeah.

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Really cool. Like full circle. That's so cool. the

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same dolphin who inspired me to really

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pursue that career path, who led me to the University of

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Miami to do all of these things. You know, I got to go back and really

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get to know her and see how she had grown as well. So a

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That is so cool. I love that. I love hearing stories

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like that. Now, when you were working at Animal Care,

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and you're telling these stories, and you said you love sharing stories about

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some of these animals to connect with people. We are a storytelling

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species. We like to hear stories. We like to tell stories. What

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about that aspect said, Hey, you know what? I want to

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start looking at more of a communications role within,

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within the oceans or within ocean conservation, because, you

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know, it's not something a lot of people think of right off the bat. Like I know for

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me to start doing podcasting, it kind of came around around

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and about way. Um, but what was it for you that said, Hey,

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I think it was two things. I, like I said, I was

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really fortunate to just land that dream job straight out

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of college. So I started really early. I worked down in the keys, um,

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went and worked in, in Baltimore, had this full circle moment and

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was really saying, is this something I can imagine myself doing for, you

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know, 30 or more years. And, you

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know, a lot of internal dialogue on that one, but at that

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same time, you know, I met some really incredible people

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from all over the world who had an interest in

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not only the animals in our care, but the animals out in

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the ocean as well. And being able to, you

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know, teach people the most basic things. Dolphins

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are not fish, they're mammals, right? Right. I'm an ocean expert.

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You're knowledgeable about the ocean, right? But there are just a lot of

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people who don't know things that feel very

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simple. So being able to, to empower people. Um,

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with knowledge and they, they leave more educated than they

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arrived with was really inspiring, but really it

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was those more individual interactions,

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whether it was kids during a poolside meet and greet who

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I saw a lot of my eight year old self in them and saw that, that

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twinkle in their eye or. if it was kids

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from Baltimore City Public Schools coming in for straight

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A night, if they wouldn't otherwise be able to come to

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the aquarium and show them dolphins and really share my

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love with them through story. And so sort

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of as I got to the tail end and I was saying, is this something that I could do

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for another few decades? Like what does growth look

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like? I'm a person who really loves to learn and explore and challenge

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myself. Every day working with animals is an

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adventure. Um, but thinking about that fulfillment, I

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was like, you know what? I'm a storyteller. I

233
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have, you know, use the animals that were either

234
00:14:27,087 --> 00:14:30,268
behind me or in front of me or next to me, wherever I was sort of

235
00:14:30,328 --> 00:14:33,529
standing in that amphitheater to inspire people to

236
00:14:33,569 --> 00:14:36,890
care a little bit more about the ocean than, than when they woke up that day.

237
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So that's when I was like, you know what? I kind of want to go back

238
00:14:40,650 --> 00:14:44,191
to school and I want to start exploring science

239
00:14:44,251 --> 00:14:47,774
and environmental communication, whatever that means. Yeah,

240
00:14:47,834 --> 00:14:50,956
so it was sort of those two things converging and it

241
00:14:54,238 --> 00:14:57,961
So was it difficult finding a pro you went back. Is that where you went back to?

242
00:15:01,843 --> 00:15:05,365
I went back to Miami for that one. They have a master of professional science program.

243
00:15:05,465 --> 00:15:08,868
So it's okay. Um, it's You it's

244
00:15:08,888 --> 00:15:12,710
kind of a choose your own adventure you write and treat it like a traditional master

245
00:15:12,750 --> 00:15:16,629
of science where you complete a hypothesis based research

246
00:15:16,670 --> 00:15:19,953
project or you can do more professional based non

247
00:15:19,993 --> 00:15:23,437
hypothesis work. And so I enrolled

248
00:15:23,477 --> 00:15:28,542
in the marine conservation program, which is very flexible and sort

249
00:15:28,562 --> 00:15:32,066
of took coursework that I would have never really thought to take during

250
00:15:32,086 --> 00:15:35,430
my undergrad years. Of course, I threw a bunch of marine mammal classes in

251
00:15:35,470 --> 00:15:39,086
there. to feed my passion for that and

252
00:15:39,766 --> 00:15:43,167
was able to explore science communication through

253
00:15:43,207 --> 00:15:46,628
my project, which I did with Seven Seas Media,

254
00:15:46,788 --> 00:15:50,329
which at that time was called Seven Seas Marine Conservation and

255
00:15:50,409 --> 00:15:54,190
Travel Magazine. Yeah.

256
00:15:54,210 --> 00:15:57,311
So sort of charted my own

257
00:15:57,371 --> 00:16:00,612
course there, but had the kind

258
00:16:00,632 --> 00:16:03,873
of expert support that I needed in our faculty to

259
00:16:03,913 --> 00:16:07,101
really work through that knowing that I was

260
00:16:11,264 --> 00:16:14,986
Right, right. There's a lot of more hands-on communication

261
00:16:15,347 --> 00:16:18,449
roles too, right? I mean, that's what I think that's what it provided. It

262
00:16:18,469 --> 00:16:21,872
was like that professional science, like let's get, I

263
00:16:21,952 --> 00:16:25,614
love these programs. I feel like programs like this, we don't advertise

264
00:16:25,654 --> 00:16:29,037
enough. I think people think that if you want to go into marine

265
00:16:29,077 --> 00:16:32,360
conservation, I've seen this a lot where people are trying to, you know, they work for

266
00:16:32,380 --> 00:16:35,663
a bit, they may not have thought about going into marine biology or

267
00:16:35,923 --> 00:16:39,146
marine conservation, and then all of a sudden they're like, I really like this, it's

268
00:16:39,166 --> 00:16:42,909
really fulfilling, and they're not getting the fulfillment in the current, you

269
00:16:42,929 --> 00:16:46,052
know, stream that they're at. So they kind of come back like, well, I

270
00:16:46,072 --> 00:16:49,154
need to become a marine biologist now. And I always tell them, like, you don't necessarily need to

271
00:16:49,194 --> 00:16:52,437
become a marine biologist. You might be able to take the degree that you have. and

272
00:16:52,457 --> 00:16:56,800
then use that to get into a master's of professional

273
00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,262
science or something similar at a different university and just

274
00:17:00,302 --> 00:17:03,724
to be like, hey, this is what I can use now. And you don't have to go back

275
00:17:03,764 --> 00:17:07,066
to do another four-year degree to restart. And

276
00:17:07,086 --> 00:17:10,308
that's expensive, one. Plus, it may not give you

277
00:17:10,348 --> 00:17:13,570
what you want. It may not give you what you like. There's a lot of us who've gone through the

278
00:17:13,610 --> 00:17:16,852
science program that don't end up in science all the time. And so

279
00:17:17,753 --> 00:17:21,875
I think for a lot of people, These

280
00:17:21,995 --> 00:17:25,137
programs are really ideal. And I know the

281
00:17:25,157 --> 00:17:28,579
Master of Professional Science has been a huge hit in University

282
00:17:28,599 --> 00:17:31,781
of Miami. So that's always great to

283
00:17:31,821 --> 00:17:35,923
hear. Now, coming out of that, that was right before the

284
00:17:38,445 --> 00:17:42,347
Right after. I graduated December 2016. So right

285
00:17:42,367 --> 00:17:46,549
in the aftermath, when everybody was sort of wondering

286
00:17:48,033 --> 00:17:51,656
Yeah, because we knew at that point, you know, Trump became president.

287
00:17:51,696 --> 00:17:54,858
He wasn't the most, the administration wasn't, I'll

288
00:17:54,898 --> 00:17:58,161
say this politely, the most environmentally focused. Let's just

289
00:17:58,181 --> 00:18:02,764
say a lot of environmental programs federally got cut and

290
00:18:03,745 --> 00:18:06,968
funding as well got cut, which put a damper on a lot of

291
00:18:07,048 --> 00:18:10,481
environmental organizations and their ability to hire. ability

292
00:18:10,521 --> 00:18:13,764
to do projects and so forth. So you decided to go back for

293
00:18:13,804 --> 00:18:16,966
that masters of, uh, I believe it

294
00:18:17,006 --> 00:18:20,489
was, it was at Chapel Hill, the public administration. So

295
00:18:20,689 --> 00:18:24,072
you kind of saw like a different skillset that you might be able to use in

296
00:18:28,636 --> 00:18:32,439
I think it's a great point. And I should say that the

297
00:18:32,479 --> 00:18:35,681
last quarter of every year can be a challenging time

298
00:18:35,702 --> 00:18:39,874
to look for a job, right? Because, you know, end

299
00:18:39,914 --> 00:18:43,116
of budget year, people are taking off for the holidays. It

300
00:18:43,977 --> 00:18:47,559
doesn't really start back until January. So that compounded with

301
00:18:48,259 --> 00:18:51,821
waiting for the new president elect to take office

302
00:18:51,961 --> 00:18:55,283
and see what was going to happen, you know, made

303
00:18:55,323 --> 00:19:00,346
it a bit of a challenging job search. And one

304
00:19:00,366 --> 00:19:04,449
of the things that I knew I wanted to do was work for nonprofit organizations.

305
00:19:04,869 --> 00:19:08,152
What were the skills that I did not. get coursework in

306
00:19:08,812 --> 00:19:12,396
during my professional science master's degree. There were courses that

307
00:19:12,436 --> 00:19:15,879
just weren't offered when I was there that had previously been

308
00:19:15,919 --> 00:19:19,122
offered things like grant writing or leadership. And

309
00:19:19,162 --> 00:19:22,324
so I was like, you know what, if I'm going to be looking for

310
00:19:22,344 --> 00:19:25,848
a job anyway, let's see about gaining some new skills

311
00:19:25,948 --> 00:19:30,432
and really focusing on the nuts

312
00:19:30,472 --> 00:19:34,215
and bolts of being not just a good employee, but

313
00:19:34,737 --> 00:19:38,559
you know, somebody who could lead organizations or understand organizations

314
00:19:39,379 --> 00:19:42,981
and be a really effective team member wherever I ended up. And

315
00:19:43,081 --> 00:19:46,782
so I thought I was applying to a certificate program.

316
00:19:47,483 --> 00:19:51,424
It ended up being an online master's program. So happy accident there

317
00:19:51,544 --> 00:19:54,746
as Bob Ross would call it. Um, at

318
00:19:54,786 --> 00:19:58,467
around the same time that I was accepted, uh, which

319
00:19:58,547 --> 00:20:01,905
I guess was March of that year. I had found my job at

320
00:20:01,925 --> 00:20:05,607
the National Marine Sanctuary Foundation and I started those two things about

321
00:20:05,627 --> 00:20:08,909
the same time. So it was really cool to step into

322
00:20:08,950 --> 00:20:12,172
a new job, which is a senior level role under new

323
00:20:12,212 --> 00:20:15,494
leadership, lots of big challenges to tackle, and

324
00:20:15,534 --> 00:20:20,057
then also sort of learn about those things through

325
00:20:20,097 --> 00:20:23,619
this public administration program and apply them as I went. So

326
00:20:24,099 --> 00:20:27,742
just a really, really incredible secondary experience.

327
00:20:27,802 --> 00:20:32,065
I'm so grateful for that. opportunity.

328
00:20:32,266 --> 00:20:36,028
And while it was an online program, you know, Chapel Hill's just so good

329
00:20:36,048 --> 00:20:39,590
at what they do on that front. I was able to go to the campus, uh,

330
00:20:39,710 --> 00:20:44,192
two years in a row for what are called immersions and it's online in-person

331
00:20:44,232 --> 00:20:47,394
students. We all come together for special topics and it was just a

332
00:20:47,454 --> 00:20:50,936
really special experience. Yeah. So I call that like

333
00:20:51,156 --> 00:20:54,638
the third leg of my three legged stool. I've got the science, I've

334
00:20:54,678 --> 00:20:58,140
got the communication and then I've got that sort of, um,

335
00:20:58,757 --> 00:21:02,360
an organizational management or administration skillset. Because

336
00:21:03,140 --> 00:21:06,323
one of the things that I often tell students or people that

337
00:21:06,343 --> 00:21:09,625
I mentor, no matter what you want to do, you're going to work

338
00:21:09,985 --> 00:21:13,107
for an organization or with other people. Even if you want to

339
00:21:13,148 --> 00:21:16,470
be a consultant and work for yourself, even if you want to

340
00:21:16,530 --> 00:21:19,612
be quote unquote, just a shark scientist off on

341
00:21:19,632 --> 00:21:23,154
a remote Island somewhere, you're gonna, be

342
00:21:23,194 --> 00:21:26,516
affiliated with an organization. So you should understand what they

343
00:21:26,656 --> 00:21:29,858
are, how they work effectively, and how you fit into all

344
00:21:29,918 --> 00:21:34,060
that. So I was really grateful for that experience as

345
00:21:35,081 --> 00:21:38,448
Yeah. This is something I've been discovering even recently. I

346
00:21:39,549 --> 00:21:42,971
just turned 46 and over this past

347
00:21:43,051 --> 00:21:46,512
year I've discovered there's a lot of jobs

348
00:21:46,592 --> 00:21:50,334
where they're like program coordinators or program managers

349
00:21:50,414 --> 00:21:53,676
and this and that. And you require a skill set

350
00:21:53,696 --> 00:21:57,318
that you may not learn in university through like a marine biology

351
00:21:57,338 --> 00:22:00,600
degree, maybe in the professional science, depending on the track that you use,

352
00:22:01,340 --> 00:22:04,941
But it's not easy to find a program that

353
00:22:04,981 --> 00:22:08,602
has, it's a pretty diverse set of skills that

354
00:22:08,622 --> 00:22:13,444
you can develop. So having something like in public administration or non-profit

355
00:22:13,684 --> 00:22:17,065
work or something like that, that you can gain that experience is

356
00:22:17,105 --> 00:22:20,866
really great. Project management experience is so helpful.

357
00:22:20,886 --> 00:22:24,207
It just keeps you organized. It allows you to have maybe

358
00:22:24,247 --> 00:22:27,468
those senior type roles, managers, supervisors and so forth.

359
00:22:27,488 --> 00:22:31,136
So it must have been great to be able to learn that alongside that Marine Sanctuary

360
00:22:31,196 --> 00:22:34,379
program because you're just basically like, here's what I'm learning and

361
00:22:34,439 --> 00:22:37,702
here's how I'm applying it. I'm already applying in real time and I

362
00:22:37,722 --> 00:22:41,345
think that's such a, like you said, enriching

363
00:22:41,425 --> 00:22:44,567
experience. You don't get that often. It couldn't have

364
00:22:44,587 --> 00:22:48,250
been easy to do though, like work a full-time job and then do an online

365
00:22:53,394 --> 00:22:56,968
Carefully. I'm really thankful

366
00:22:57,008 --> 00:23:00,753
that, you know, my boss at the sanctuary foundation was super supportive

367
00:23:01,554 --> 00:23:05,138
and, you know, the program was designed

368
00:23:05,239 --> 00:23:08,603
for working professionals that online format is really for.

369
00:23:09,488 --> 00:23:12,689
people who either have a job or, you know, are in

370
00:23:12,729 --> 00:23:16,570
the middle of their search. And so it's a lot of evening coursework, asynchronous.

371
00:23:16,610 --> 00:23:20,351
So I would be watching my asynchronous lectures. I

372
00:23:20,391 --> 00:23:23,552
shouldn't say watching because I was listening to them, you know, on

373
00:23:23,572 --> 00:23:27,013
my commute into work, for example, right. You know,

374
00:23:27,093 --> 00:23:30,694
so, so carefully, but, um, the

375
00:23:30,734 --> 00:23:34,175
really cool thing was that like, In

376
00:23:34,195 --> 00:23:37,818
my master of professional science experience, I was around a

377
00:23:37,858 --> 00:23:41,840
lot of really knowledgeable and really exciting people who were tackling diverse

378
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,523
topics in ocean science, conservation, you know,

379
00:23:46,443 --> 00:23:49,926
all kinds of stuff like that. The master of professional science, it's

380
00:23:49,946 --> 00:23:53,388
just so much broader because local government, there

381
00:23:53,408 --> 00:23:57,211
are thousands of them in the U S right. So people

382
00:23:57,251 --> 00:24:01,675
working on veterans issues and human health and housing I

383
00:24:01,715 --> 00:24:05,038
could learn new perspectives and apply it to my own work

384
00:24:05,598 --> 00:24:09,261
in a really different way that I didn't get in the professional science. So

385
00:24:09,421 --> 00:24:12,524
in that experience where I brought the communications interests and had to

386
00:24:12,544 --> 00:24:15,906
figure out how to work with that in public administration, I

387
00:24:15,966 --> 00:24:19,249
brought the environmental science and had to figure out sort of how

388
00:24:19,289 --> 00:24:22,632
that fits with what we were talking about. And my

389
00:24:22,692 --> 00:24:26,174
colleagues were so diverse and just so interesting that

390
00:24:26,294 --> 00:24:29,681
it never really felt like. Work. So it didn't feel like

391
00:24:29,701 --> 00:24:33,283
an extra lift because I found it exciting. And

392
00:24:33,483 --> 00:24:38,927
fun. So while it was, you know, finals

393
00:24:38,947 --> 00:24:42,509
week was never fun for anybody, but it was that combo of, of

394
00:24:42,529 --> 00:24:46,632
enjoying it and just having a really supportive, uh, employer

395
00:24:46,812 --> 00:24:50,174
and, and team and just a program that was run really,

396
00:24:50,234 --> 00:24:53,657
really well allowed me to thrive. And I credit

397
00:24:53,737 --> 00:24:57,847
a lot of my success to that program. As well, because it

398
00:24:57,907 --> 00:25:01,110
informed a lot of my, my work moving forward into the PhD and

399
00:25:04,955 --> 00:25:08,275
Awesome. That's great to hear. And so that's what so that's what made you

400
00:25:08,716 --> 00:25:12,358
do the PhD. So my next question, you

401
00:25:12,398 --> 00:25:15,821
know, going back to University of Miami to do the PhD, why there?

402
00:25:17,182 --> 00:25:20,444
And and again, going into communications, like what

403
00:25:20,584 --> 00:25:23,827
did you have the idea of what you want to do going into the

404
00:25:23,887 --> 00:25:27,049
PhD? Or was this something you had an idea of who you want

405
00:25:31,032 --> 00:25:34,773
It's an interesting question, because I My parents bring

406
00:25:34,793 --> 00:25:37,915
this up all the time. I said, I would never go to graduate school. And then I

407
00:25:37,975 --> 00:25:41,098
went and then I went again and then I went a

408
00:25:41,278 --> 00:25:45,261
third time. So it's sort

409
00:25:45,321 --> 00:25:48,544
of been, it's evolved as we've gone, I should

410
00:25:48,584 --> 00:25:51,706
say, but, um, you know, coming out

411
00:25:51,766 --> 00:25:55,489
of the public administration program, I was

412
00:25:55,509 --> 00:25:58,772
like, man, I still just don't quite feel finished. And the things that

413
00:25:58,792 --> 00:26:02,074
I was seeing, I was the communications director for the sanctuary foundation. I

414
00:26:02,094 --> 00:26:05,669
had. you know, just an incredible

415
00:26:05,749 --> 00:26:09,031
front row seat to what was going on in ocean science

416
00:26:09,071 --> 00:26:12,473
and conservation across the country. At the time there were 14 sites

417
00:26:13,094 --> 00:26:16,996
from American Samoa to the Florida Keys to Massachusetts,

418
00:26:17,717 --> 00:26:21,059
different communities, you know, different topics. I could be talking about

419
00:26:21,079 --> 00:26:25,762
whales in one meeting and then shipwrecks in another, working

420
00:26:26,302 --> 00:26:29,825
to support fundraising, talking about grants we were making.

421
00:26:29,965 --> 00:26:33,007
So just that incredible diversity of topics that I

422
00:26:33,047 --> 00:26:36,279
could talk about. was really fulfilling to me. But,

423
00:26:36,439 --> 00:26:40,982
um, I think it was in that role that I was really just noticing this

424
00:26:41,162 --> 00:26:45,366
gap between ocean communication and

425
00:26:45,806 --> 00:26:49,249
terrestrial conservation communication, climate communication. And

426
00:26:50,750 --> 00:26:54,493
that really inspired me to, to pause and be like, you

427
00:26:54,533 --> 00:26:57,795
know, I'm thinking about a PhD. I think I

428
00:26:57,815 --> 00:27:01,018
would want it to be about ocean communication and really how that

429
00:27:01,158 --> 00:27:04,850
fits The ocean conservation movement,

430
00:27:04,890 --> 00:27:08,233
and this was before the UN ocean decade and things like that.

431
00:27:08,933 --> 00:27:12,336
So I was like, you know what? Let's just try and let's

432
00:27:12,376 --> 00:27:15,739
find a program that's interdisciplinary and lets people get

433
00:27:15,859 --> 00:27:19,542
weird with what they want to try out. And I

434
00:27:19,622 --> 00:27:23,346
didn't have to look much further than the university of Miami for the

435
00:27:23,386 --> 00:27:27,149
program here at our Abbott center for ecosystem science and policy. It's.

436
00:27:28,405 --> 00:27:31,608
a little bit different from a traditional PhD because you don't have

437
00:27:31,648 --> 00:27:35,210
to work with any one faculty member in a particular school

438
00:27:35,411 --> 00:27:38,833
or college. So ending up there was

439
00:27:38,873 --> 00:27:41,976
definitely a match. I was familiar with the university and with the

440
00:27:42,016 --> 00:27:45,398
Rosensteil school already. And so I was able

441
00:27:45,498 --> 00:27:48,721
to come back and jump right in.

442
00:27:49,001 --> 00:27:52,944
So I didn't go in with this proposal to do communication

443
00:27:52,984 --> 00:27:57,214
and media about right whales, but it sort of just naturally fell

444
00:27:57,254 --> 00:28:00,376
into place because I started six months before COVID. I had

445
00:28:00,396 --> 00:28:03,558
these big dreams to go out and do community engaged work and,

446
00:28:04,479 --> 00:28:07,561
and tackle all these topics. Wanted to work on some of this stuff with the

447
00:28:07,581 --> 00:28:11,103
Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary expansion. And,

448
00:28:11,123 --> 00:28:14,385
and a lot of that got just curbed by

449
00:28:14,565 --> 00:28:17,928
COVID and we obviously had to adjust

450
00:28:18,008 --> 00:28:21,730
course. And I give all the credit in the world to my co-advisors who

451
00:28:21,750 --> 00:28:25,472
were so patient during that time. When I was like, well, can't

452
00:28:25,492 --> 00:28:28,755
go out and do that. So what are we going to do instead? Here's a million bad

453
00:28:28,835 --> 00:28:31,917
ideas that I'm just throwing out. You

454
00:28:31,937 --> 00:28:35,499
know, what do we think could work? So I

455
00:28:35,900 --> 00:28:39,382
not only came into the PhD with an open mind

456
00:28:39,843 --> 00:28:43,745
and an open question, but the world

457
00:28:43,825 --> 00:28:47,668
altering sort of change that was COVID also

458
00:28:48,069 --> 00:28:51,331
forced me to think on my feet and brought me

459
00:28:53,404 --> 00:28:57,187
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's great. Like, the

460
00:28:57,327 --> 00:29:00,791
one interesting, I mean, there were a lot of interesting things that happened during

461
00:29:00,831 --> 00:29:03,893
COVID with with graduate students, some good, some bad, you

462
00:29:03,933 --> 00:29:07,456
know, a lot of people had to pivot and switch the focus of

463
00:29:07,556 --> 00:29:11,019
their, you know, some people couldn't do fieldwork anymore.

464
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,482
So they had to, you know, take the data they had and make the best of what they

465
00:29:14,522 --> 00:29:17,745
could and maybe elaborate on some of the things or

466
00:29:17,885 --> 00:29:21,693
like I said, pivot on in ways

467
00:29:21,733 --> 00:29:26,331
that they never thought of before. you

468
00:29:26,351 --> 00:29:30,374
definitely built the skill set as a graduate student during COVID, where

469
00:29:30,414 --> 00:29:33,616
you had to be really resilient. And I'm sure it tested the

470
00:29:33,676 --> 00:29:37,979
mind body with all of that. So

471
00:29:38,620 --> 00:29:42,842
what did you decide when you did your PhD, as

472
00:29:42,882 --> 00:29:47,065
that changed where you couldn't do as much community engagement, if at all,

473
00:29:47,245 --> 00:29:50,748
what line did you wanna go towards? Like what line did you wanna follow?

474
00:29:54,792 --> 00:29:59,553
Yeah. Well, and I shouldn't call them bad ideas, but when

475
00:29:59,573 --> 00:30:02,854
you brainstorm, there's just so much that ends up on the cutting room floor. And

476
00:30:02,894 --> 00:30:06,315
that's, if I looked back at my idea sheets

477
00:30:06,675 --> 00:30:09,935
from year one versus now, I would wonder what

478
00:30:09,955 --> 00:30:13,596
the heck I was thinking. But, um, I think that's all

479
00:30:13,616 --> 00:30:18,092
of us when we look back at our past work. So One,

480
00:30:18,452 --> 00:30:21,994
you know, the fact that I had the experience as an online student

481
00:30:22,155 --> 00:30:25,797
at UNC really helped me learn

482
00:30:25,837 --> 00:30:29,519
to work effectively online and in a virtual environment. So.

483
00:30:30,439 --> 00:30:33,961
That's when I said, you know, it's at least for the foreseeable future,

484
00:30:33,981 --> 00:30:37,663
we're going to need to look into things

485
00:30:37,683 --> 00:30:41,805
that don't require interacting with people. So what is that exploring media,

486
00:30:41,825 --> 00:30:45,767
um, whatever that looks like. And. you

487
00:30:45,807 --> 00:30:48,969
know, I tried my hardest coming into this PhD to, to try

488
00:30:48,989 --> 00:30:52,951
to branch out and do other topics and whales

489
00:30:53,011 --> 00:30:56,232
and dolphins, they always just call back to me. And so I was like, you know what?

490
00:30:56,752 --> 00:31:00,114
Well, in dolphin conservation, my advisor at

491
00:31:00,154 --> 00:31:03,936
the time agreed. She said, this is your wheelhouse. There's

492
00:31:04,016 --> 00:31:08,018
no need to try to branch outside that. So let's just follow that where

493
00:31:08,038 --> 00:31:12,040
you think it'll lead. And around that same time, two documentaries

494
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,104
came out about right whales. And I said, well, This

495
00:31:16,184 --> 00:31:19,366
is ripe. This is prime for, for the exploring. And

496
00:31:19,406 --> 00:31:22,687
this is the kind of work that we can do. This is something that's

497
00:31:22,747 --> 00:31:25,989
timely. It's. You know, not around

498
00:31:26,049 --> 00:31:29,511
people. So what if we did right whales? Yeah. And

499
00:31:29,931 --> 00:31:33,012
that's sort of how we ended up on that one. I had been familiar with it.

500
00:31:33,433 --> 00:31:37,034
Right. Um, done, obviously learned

501
00:31:37,074 --> 00:31:40,696
about it in courses, done projects. I did like my

502
00:31:40,816 --> 00:31:44,028
GIS course in. Uh, the MPS program, I

503
00:31:44,228 --> 00:31:48,429
did a paper about right whales, um, supported

504
00:31:48,489 --> 00:31:51,930
some of that work, uh, while I was with the sanctuary foundation. And

505
00:31:51,990 --> 00:31:55,431
I was like, this is where we'll land. I think we can do something pretty

506
00:31:55,531 --> 00:31:59,212
interesting with this and look at right whale conservation from

507
00:31:59,252 --> 00:32:03,133
a different angle, which also kept

508
00:32:03,213 --> 00:32:07,134
me motivated going back to what you said about needing resilience

509
00:32:07,575 --> 00:32:10,708
and, you know, to be able to make it through a

510
00:32:10,748 --> 00:32:13,930
graduate program, that was something that was gonna keep my attention and keep

511
00:32:13,950 --> 00:32:18,792
me motivated, not all day, every day. Having

512
00:32:18,832 --> 00:32:23,394
an interest and feeling like I was doing something interesting definitely

513
00:32:23,434 --> 00:32:27,295
helped. So that's how we landed on Right Whale Communication, Right

514
00:32:30,257 --> 00:32:33,618
Yeah, not communicating with Right Whales, like talking to

515
00:32:33,638 --> 00:32:37,019
them or getting there, it's about the media. And

516
00:32:37,059 --> 00:32:40,384
to be honest, There were

517
00:32:40,404 --> 00:32:44,129
a lot of things that went on, not only in the past, but even during COVID in

518
00:32:44,189 --> 00:32:47,394
regards to North Atlantic right whales. I mean, we've seen

519
00:32:47,434 --> 00:32:50,618
like in the early 2000s, they weren't critically endangered or

520
00:32:50,659 --> 00:32:54,484
maybe even before that. Then all of a sudden they plummeted. and

521
00:32:54,504 --> 00:32:58,808
then you know there was that disastrous year of fatalities

522
00:32:59,609 --> 00:33:03,132
in it was 2017 where they started to come up to the Gulf of

523
00:33:03,172 --> 00:33:06,456
St. Lawrence here in Canada. There's been a lot of stuff

524
00:33:06,476 --> 00:33:09,939
that went on pre-COVID but even with COVID during COVID

525
00:33:09,979 --> 00:33:13,303
even up to like last year there were a lot of things going on

526
00:33:13,343 --> 00:33:17,086
especially around A lot of the sustainable

527
00:33:17,186 --> 00:33:22,030
seafood programs that were supporting lobster

528
00:33:22,070 --> 00:33:25,553
fishing and crab fishing and shrimp fishing and anything

529
00:33:25,593 --> 00:33:29,016
that had to do with a pot that was on the ground and

530
00:33:29,036 --> 00:33:33,120
a line that would go up where these whales

531
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,562
would swim through because they couldn't see it and then they would end up

532
00:33:36,602 --> 00:33:40,025
getting hurt. you know, could die of infection or what

533
00:33:40,065 --> 00:33:43,528
have you. Plus, you know, shipping channels and so forth. With

534
00:33:43,588 --> 00:33:47,611
climate change kind of rearing its ugly head, especially nowadays, and

535
00:33:47,691 --> 00:33:51,715
seeing the different patterns that we're seeing of distribution

536
00:33:51,835 --> 00:33:55,238
with North Atlantic right whales, it wasn't a bad time to

537
00:33:55,258 --> 00:33:58,429
start looking at how The media was

538
00:33:58,549 --> 00:34:02,532
portraying this from a conservation standpoint

539
00:34:02,572 --> 00:34:05,974
as well as probably from a bit of a controversial standpoint with

540
00:34:06,535 --> 00:34:09,877
how different organizations and governments were taking a

541
00:34:09,937 --> 00:34:13,139
stance on protecting these animals from

542
00:34:13,179 --> 00:34:16,962
a fisheries perspective as well as from a conservation perspective. So there's

543
00:34:16,982 --> 00:34:20,868
a lot that was going on. in the last 20 years or

544
00:34:20,908 --> 00:34:24,869
more, 24 years, to say, hey, there's a lot that

545
00:34:24,909 --> 00:34:28,370
you can go here. Now, when you look at media, were you looking at how

546
00:34:28,410 --> 00:34:31,751
the media was portraying, like looking at the different sides? And if there's one

547
00:34:32,211 --> 00:34:35,532
that was being more biased towards one way or another,

548
00:34:35,552 --> 00:34:39,653
like the conservation or not, what was the question

549
00:34:44,174 --> 00:34:47,669
There's a lot there. So maybe what

550
00:34:47,689 --> 00:34:50,890
I'll do, I'll, I'll. Walk you through the sort of order of my

551
00:34:50,930 --> 00:34:54,391
dissertation projects and we can follow the thread lines

552
00:34:54,451 --> 00:34:57,551
that we're interested in. So the

553
00:34:57,611 --> 00:35:00,932
first paper as part of the core of my,

554
00:35:01,272 --> 00:35:04,973
my body of research right now is not actually about communication

555
00:35:05,113 --> 00:35:08,514
or media, but it was a really important chapter. And

556
00:35:08,554 --> 00:35:11,954
that was a law and policy case study related to

557
00:35:11,974 --> 00:35:15,689
the Eastern North Pacific gray whale. And I chose that. That

558
00:35:15,709 --> 00:35:19,250
was a project that I started looking into while I was a master's student.

559
00:35:19,810 --> 00:35:23,731
And it, it's a really incredible conservation story

560
00:35:23,771 --> 00:35:26,912
because that was the first marine mammal ever removed from the

561
00:35:26,992 --> 00:35:30,893
U S endangered species list for a successful recovery rather

562
00:35:30,933 --> 00:35:34,954
than extinction. And that was done in 1994. And

563
00:35:34,994 --> 00:35:38,214
so what I did with that paper was look at this sort of

564
00:35:38,355 --> 00:35:42,055
historic context of how we went from industrial

565
00:35:42,115 --> 00:35:45,859
whaling, where we decimated nearly all whale stocks globally

566
00:35:46,559 --> 00:35:50,863
to a place where whales are almost celebrities out

567
00:35:50,883 --> 00:35:54,445
in the ocean. And so really looked at the law and policy

568
00:35:54,485 --> 00:35:58,388
decisions, the cultural movement, the,

569
00:35:59,789 --> 00:36:03,051
I should say movements that took place over a span of

570
00:36:03,111 --> 00:36:06,334
about 40 years. And then the law and

571
00:36:06,394 --> 00:36:10,477
policy framework under which we were able to help

572
00:36:11,077 --> 00:36:14,738
that population of gray whales not only recover but thrive

573
00:36:14,938 --> 00:36:18,779
where they're now in these sort of boom and bust cycles. So

574
00:36:19,399 --> 00:36:22,760
walking through that helped me explore the complexities of

575
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,081
marine mammal conservation and management, not just

576
00:36:26,901 --> 00:36:31,002
under us law, but under international law and all these different agreements.

577
00:36:31,822 --> 00:36:35,423
And it introduced me to some of the cultural movements and the conservation

578
00:36:35,503 --> 00:36:38,824
marketing that helped whales become those celebrities they

579
00:36:38,924 --> 00:36:42,085
are today. And that actually has come up

580
00:36:42,665 --> 00:36:46,062
in. Subsequent projects. So

581
00:36:46,623 --> 00:36:49,786
that was chapter 1. It's really chapter 2, but

582
00:36:50,086 --> 00:36:53,289
the 1st project, you know, law and policy case study. We

583
00:36:53,329 --> 00:36:56,832
did it before. Can we do it again with the same laws, the

584
00:36:56,913 --> 00:37:00,356
same frameworks. For animals, like the right whale, the

585
00:37:00,396 --> 00:37:03,759
rice's whale, other endangered species. And

586
00:37:03,779 --> 00:37:07,303
then I moved on. to the next project, which

587
00:37:07,403 --> 00:37:11,064
was a content analysis of whale watching operator

588
00:37:11,104 --> 00:37:14,646
websites in the U S. And if

589
00:37:14,706 --> 00:37:18,008
I were to ask you what you thought environmental media was, you

590
00:37:18,028 --> 00:37:22,089
would probably say things like documentaries, uh, presentations,

591
00:37:22,169 --> 00:37:25,371
displays of zoos and aquariums. You probably wouldn't go

592
00:37:25,471 --> 00:37:29,533
for a whale watching operator website, but.

593
00:37:30,853 --> 00:37:34,335
You know, coming out of the whaling era when whale watching

594
00:37:35,181 --> 00:37:38,564
really blew up and we, as a global

595
00:37:38,604 --> 00:37:42,087
community, on the whole changed the way that we consume

596
00:37:42,107 --> 00:37:45,529
whales from, for meat and oil and, you

597
00:37:45,569 --> 00:37:49,312
know, other materials to visual experience

598
00:37:49,372 --> 00:37:52,595
and consuming them for, you know, that spectacle of

599
00:37:52,715 --> 00:37:55,957
nature. You know, whale watching is

600
00:37:56,197 --> 00:37:59,480
one of the only ways that most people will ever experience these

601
00:37:59,620 --> 00:38:03,348
animals in their habitat for real. Right. And

602
00:38:03,628 --> 00:38:07,071
the messaging that we receive from things like

603
00:38:07,272 --> 00:38:10,695
advertisements. Interact with things

604
00:38:10,975 --> 00:38:14,158
like podcasts or, you know, science talks that

605
00:38:14,198 --> 00:38:17,762
we go to, or, you know, um, exhibits that

606
00:38:17,782 --> 00:38:20,945
we engage with at aquariums to create meaning about what

607
00:38:21,005 --> 00:38:24,368
whales are and what their plight is. So

608
00:38:24,388 --> 00:38:28,029
we looked at. Whale watching operator websites, uh,

609
00:38:28,169 --> 00:38:31,570
in six regions. So Massachusetts, Northern

610
00:38:31,611 --> 00:38:35,492
Southern California, Washington state, Hawaii,

611
00:38:35,852 --> 00:38:39,114
and Alaska. And really just wanted

612
00:38:39,154 --> 00:38:42,495
to understand what is it that whale watching operators are selling

613
00:38:42,535 --> 00:38:45,977
to people during that pre-tour experience? What are the expectations they're

614
00:38:45,997 --> 00:38:49,298
creating and what do people think they're buying? Right.

615
00:38:49,398 --> 00:38:52,639
And, and that's a really important. thing to

616
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,922
consider because we don't always actively engage with

617
00:38:55,982 --> 00:38:59,125
environmental media, but we experience environmental messages in

618
00:38:59,165 --> 00:39:02,568
passing all the time. It's almost like a pinball machine

619
00:39:02,608 --> 00:39:06,352
where we're sort of just bouncing around. You

620
00:39:06,372 --> 00:39:09,534
know, even Lisa Frank drawings of whales and dolphins like

621
00:39:09,574 --> 00:39:13,037
that help shape the things that we think

622
00:39:13,078 --> 00:39:16,755
they are and what those animals mean. So

623
00:39:17,395 --> 00:39:21,337
looked into whale watching operator websites, and Massachusetts

624
00:39:21,357 --> 00:39:25,999
was obviously one of the focal areas. And they, on

625
00:39:26,039 --> 00:39:29,400
the whole, promote right whales

626
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,021
as one of the top species that you can see for the operators

627
00:39:33,101 --> 00:39:36,503
who listed specific species. So

628
00:39:36,983 --> 00:39:40,222
they're obviously something of interest up there. We

629
00:39:40,262 --> 00:39:44,044
didn't really see, you know, specific right

630
00:39:44,104 --> 00:39:47,826
whale tours, but they were mentioned fairly frequently. So they're

631
00:39:47,846 --> 00:39:51,508
at least known and something that people want to see. So

632
00:39:51,548 --> 00:39:54,670
that sort of told us what operators were focusing on.

633
00:39:54,870 --> 00:39:58,152
It's what we found was that it's more about the things that

634
00:39:58,172 --> 00:40:01,394
they can control. Are there bathrooms on board? Are you going

635
00:40:01,414 --> 00:40:04,655
to be able to learn if you want to? Who's the captain and what's

636
00:40:04,715 --> 00:40:08,102
the boat? Can you bring food? Um, and

637
00:40:08,142 --> 00:40:11,785
conservation and education, we're a little bit lower on the list of.

638
00:40:12,425 --> 00:40:15,787
Priorities, you know, and we saw lots of

639
00:40:16,628 --> 00:40:20,330
stereotypic images, what we call the whale watching imaginary. So

640
00:40:20,770 --> 00:40:24,373
the imagery is pretty standard across regions and across websites. You've

641
00:40:24,413 --> 00:40:27,575
got whale jumping on a whale jumping on

642
00:40:27,615 --> 00:40:31,337
a scenic backdrop, whale tail, um, people

643
00:40:31,537 --> 00:40:34,740
leaning over the side of the boat with their cameras to take pictures of

644
00:40:34,780 --> 00:40:37,928
a part of the whale that's up close, you know, So it's not all

645
00:40:37,968 --> 00:40:41,070
that diverse, but also you're trying to get people on the

646
00:40:41,090 --> 00:40:45,112
boat so that you can educate them and give them this incredible experience. So

647
00:40:45,132 --> 00:40:48,533
you don't want to show a picture of a whale logging 300 meters

648
00:40:48,593 --> 00:40:52,375
away. You know, that's just not all

649
00:40:52,435 --> 00:40:55,556
that inspirational. So some interesting stuff came out of that one,

650
00:40:55,596 --> 00:40:59,018
but it wasn't traditional. Environmental media, as

651
00:40:59,078 --> 00:41:02,539
you might think of it. So we have the lawn policy analysis with

652
00:41:02,559 --> 00:41:05,801
the whale watching operators, and then we get into the whale, the right whale

653
00:41:05,841 --> 00:41:10,539
stuff. started by looking at 13 years

654
00:41:10,859 --> 00:41:15,001
of news coverage in larger U S newspapers from 2010, when

655
00:41:15,021 --> 00:41:19,122
the population started to decline from its moderate peak all

656
00:41:19,142 --> 00:41:23,464
the way through, uh, March 15th,

657
00:41:23,844 --> 00:41:27,286
2023. And where that project came from, you know, I

658
00:41:27,746 --> 00:41:31,247
got a news alert one day through like Apple news or something that

659
00:41:31,287 --> 00:41:34,707
had said as part of a federal spending bill, the

660
00:41:34,787 --> 00:41:38,069
US Congress had blocked certain provisions with right

661
00:41:38,089 --> 00:41:41,632
whale conservation and the federal agency's ability to

662
00:41:41,692 --> 00:41:45,334
manage that. And I said, well, that's interesting. Let's look into that. Saw

663
00:41:45,374 --> 00:41:48,456
some follow-up stories. And I said, you know what? I want to

664
00:41:48,476 --> 00:41:52,159
know how we got here. And so went through and

665
00:41:52,679 --> 00:41:56,181
chose six large US newspapers, sampled

666
00:41:56,301 --> 00:41:59,944
everything they had done for about 13 years, which ended

667
00:42:00,004 --> 00:42:03,197
up being 356. texts, which

668
00:42:03,257 --> 00:42:06,680
include letters to the editor, and

669
00:42:07,100 --> 00:42:10,502
really just set out to figure out what those stories

670
00:42:10,542 --> 00:42:13,825
they were telling were, what was the focus, and how they were presenting it.

671
00:42:14,225 --> 00:42:17,407
So, to your earlier point about a lot happening over the

672
00:42:17,447 --> 00:42:22,831
last few decades, yeah, saw it firsthand. And

673
00:42:22,871 --> 00:42:26,047
what came out of that project, because we went in and

674
00:42:26,067 --> 00:42:29,190
just coded for which publications are

675
00:42:29,210 --> 00:42:32,313
publishing about right whales most, which authors, what

676
00:42:32,353 --> 00:42:35,577
are the themes they're talking about? We found that one

677
00:42:35,637 --> 00:42:39,761
publication and one author were really driving the narrative. And

678
00:42:40,101 --> 00:42:43,285
that started in 2017, that summer that

679
00:42:43,305 --> 00:42:46,648
you mentioned where at least a dozen whales were found dead

680
00:42:46,668 --> 00:42:50,459
in the Gulf of St. Lawrence where they didn't at the time have legal protections.

681
00:42:50,519 --> 00:42:54,741
And that started what we call an issue attention cycle. We're

682
00:42:55,501 --> 00:43:00,302
quite familiar with those as consumers of media, but

683
00:43:00,382 --> 00:43:03,663
I really looked at all of that coverage through the lens

684
00:43:03,703 --> 00:43:07,324
of issue attention cycle, which says media will follow predictable

685
00:43:07,364 --> 00:43:11,165
patterns to focus on what's problematic or

686
00:43:11,205 --> 00:43:14,706
what they can dramatize to maintain consumer interests

687
00:43:15,266 --> 00:43:19,377
until they grow bored and move on to something else. Um,

688
00:43:19,537 --> 00:43:22,878
and we can talk more about that if you want, but we found that there was an issue

689
00:43:22,918 --> 00:43:26,218
attention cycle surrounding entanglements. Uh,

690
00:43:26,358 --> 00:43:29,919
in fishing gear, specifically as it related to the new England lobster

691
00:43:29,959 --> 00:43:33,079
fishery, where everybody sort of focused in

692
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:37,200
on that. They focused on the drama, the conflict, uh,

693
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,601
disagreements and it was

694
00:43:40,681 --> 00:43:44,441
huge and it was contentious and it's, it's a really interesting,

695
00:43:44,522 --> 00:43:48,990
but tangled web and. it

696
00:43:49,010 --> 00:43:52,373
was really interesting to see what came out of that. And

697
00:43:52,473 --> 00:43:56,656
so followed that

698
00:43:57,137 --> 00:44:01,320
more than decade of news media to say, what were the important events? Who

699
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,703
were the featured actors? So who were the human stakeholders that the

700
00:44:04,983 --> 00:44:08,686
journalists went to or who engaged with journalists to

701
00:44:08,746 --> 00:44:12,369
co-create the story? And what would that story be,

702
00:44:12,889 --> 00:44:16,452
you know, for people who are following along? Most people, they read stories here

703
00:44:16,512 --> 00:44:20,030
and there, but we looked at the full what's called media

704
00:44:20,111 --> 00:44:23,332
discourse to make sense of sort

705
00:44:23,372 --> 00:44:26,834
of not news media as an outside actor

706
00:44:27,454 --> 00:44:30,636
looking in and showing people what is,

707
00:44:31,396 --> 00:44:35,058
but really as participants in environmental politics who,

708
00:44:35,078 --> 00:44:38,380
you know, serve as this political arena for

709
00:44:38,420 --> 00:44:41,702
different interests to try to shape public discussions and

710
00:44:41,762 --> 00:44:45,023
inform policy decisions. So some really interesting stuff

711
00:44:45,063 --> 00:44:49,117
came out of that. And as part of that issue attention cycle, came

712
00:44:49,157 --> 00:44:52,558
the two documentaries that I mentioned earlier. So

713
00:44:52,598 --> 00:44:56,660
the next project was to do a critical examination of

714
00:44:56,700 --> 00:44:59,881
those two documentaries. It's really rare to get two

715
00:44:59,941 --> 00:45:03,802
movies about the same topic by different filmmakers within

716
00:45:03,822 --> 00:45:07,324
a year of each other, you know, that takes such different approaches

717
00:45:07,384 --> 00:45:11,645
to storytelling. And so I wanted to take advantage of that opportunity to

718
00:45:11,685 --> 00:45:14,867
compare and contrast. So I looked at both of those

719
00:45:14,907 --> 00:45:18,323
films. I've seen both. more times than I can count. I'm

720
00:45:18,363 --> 00:45:22,985
sure my dog can recite it in his sleep at this point. But

721
00:45:23,025 --> 00:45:26,627
really looked at the different angles that they took, the storytelling devices

722
00:45:26,707 --> 00:45:29,849
that they used, and then expanded on

723
00:45:29,929 --> 00:45:33,911
that project with the final chapter of the dissertation, which

724
00:45:33,991 --> 00:45:37,253
is really where we took it to real people. So where

725
00:45:37,273 --> 00:45:41,135
we looked at the contents of the media in the study before, we

726
00:45:41,155 --> 00:45:44,617
wanted to look at the media effects. And so I did focus groups where

727
00:45:44,677 --> 00:45:48,533
people saw one of two films, And, you

728
00:45:48,573 --> 00:45:52,236
know, we talked through their experience as a viewer, what

729
00:45:52,256 --> 00:45:55,578
they thought the filmmaker was trying to do with it,

730
00:45:55,778 --> 00:45:59,461
what they understood the issue to be after seeing

731
00:45:59,501 --> 00:46:02,824
that film. And so that was a pretty interesting way to

732
00:46:03,344 --> 00:46:06,627
not only compare and contrast, you know, the critical reading that

733
00:46:06,687 --> 00:46:09,929
I did with the way that people experienced it, but

734
00:46:10,049 --> 00:46:14,453
also helps offer some informed insights about messaging

735
00:46:14,773 --> 00:46:18,030
surrounding right whale conservation. moving forward and then the

736
00:46:18,130 --> 00:46:22,172
use of wildlife film in support of conservation. And

737
00:46:22,212 --> 00:46:25,473
what was interesting about this project is that I was able

738
00:46:25,533 --> 00:46:28,854
to do the focus group work, uh, in

739
00:46:28,954 --> 00:46:32,815
Southern Delaware and Maryland's Eastern shore, which is along

740
00:46:32,855 --> 00:46:36,516
the right whales migratory pattern, but it's not near critical habitat.

741
00:46:37,256 --> 00:46:40,877
You know, these are not people who are probably tuned

742
00:46:40,937 --> 00:46:44,238
in to all the drama in the newspapers and things like that.

743
00:46:44,279 --> 00:46:47,879
They may have heard of right whales. So they weren't involved

744
00:46:47,939 --> 00:46:51,141
in the films. They probably hadn't seen them. So being able to

745
00:46:51,221 --> 00:46:54,683
talk to people with relationships to the ocean and

746
00:46:54,703 --> 00:46:57,864
an interest in conservation, show them these

747
00:46:57,924 --> 00:47:01,246
films and talk to them about it was a really cool

748
00:47:01,286 --> 00:47:04,468
experience. So those are the projects that I've worked on

749
00:47:04,928 --> 00:47:08,270
that are going into the dissertation. A lot there.

750
00:47:12,372 --> 00:47:16,181
Well, I mean, you know, when you do When you're working on a project, obviously

751
00:47:16,201 --> 00:47:19,422
you're still working on your writing phase. I

752
00:47:19,442 --> 00:47:22,643
don't know if you've submitted yet. Have you submitted yet? No, not yet.

753
00:47:23,403 --> 00:47:26,564
You're still probably putting the finishing touches on over the next

754
00:47:26,624 --> 00:47:30,145
few weeks. But overall, when

755
00:47:30,165 --> 00:47:33,246
you look at media, because one of

756
00:47:33,266 --> 00:47:36,527
the reasons why I started this podcast is because when I started looking

757
00:47:36,547 --> 00:47:39,848
at articles, when I was looking for articles during that

758
00:47:39,888 --> 00:47:42,992
time, I was like, It seems to be talking about the

759
00:47:43,032 --> 00:47:46,654
same thing over and over again. Obviously whales are a big topic.

760
00:47:46,734 --> 00:47:50,156
Sharks, usually it has to do with shark quote-unquote attacks, right?

761
00:47:50,856 --> 00:47:54,007
And the negative that comes around that. When

762
00:47:54,047 --> 00:47:57,331
it came to North Atlantic right

763
00:47:57,391 --> 00:48:01,096
whales, what were the types of,

764
00:48:02,097 --> 00:48:05,301
when different types of media started talking about it, say

765
00:48:05,581 --> 00:48:08,745
like mainstream media, like newspaper articles or

766
00:48:08,905 --> 00:48:12,089
digital newspaper articles and things like that, what was the

767
00:48:12,169 --> 00:48:15,552
content, was it more of Oh, another North Atlantic

768
00:48:15,592 --> 00:48:18,913
white whale was discovered dead. You know, here's it. Or

769
00:48:18,953 --> 00:48:22,274
were there any coverages on any potential, and

770
00:48:22,314 --> 00:48:26,936
if there were available, optimistic articles

771
00:48:26,976 --> 00:48:30,197
or optimistic stories of right whales that survived or like,

772
00:48:30,237 --> 00:48:33,619
you know, new calves come through or what have you? Like, what was the

773
00:48:38,140 --> 00:48:41,802
So looking at 13 years of news coverage, I

774
00:48:41,842 --> 00:48:45,104
saw pretty much everything under the gamut that you

775
00:48:45,144 --> 00:48:49,147
just mentioned. From 2010 to 2017, it

776
00:48:49,747 --> 00:48:53,149
was fairly rare to

777
00:48:53,189 --> 00:48:57,292
see stories about right whales in the publications that we sampled,

778
00:48:57,652 --> 00:49:00,815
other than NOAA is urging vessels to

779
00:49:00,895 --> 00:49:05,078
slow down, right whales have been sighted in this area, or right

780
00:49:05,098 --> 00:49:08,500
whale was found dead here, or right whale calf was

781
00:49:08,540 --> 00:49:11,987
spotted here. There were some talk

782
00:49:12,047 --> 00:49:15,409
of like naval bases in Georgia, Jacksonville at

783
00:49:15,449 --> 00:49:18,791
that time, a couple of stories bubbled up there,

784
00:49:19,632 --> 00:49:22,834
some stuff about energy development, but it was lots of

785
00:49:22,874 --> 00:49:26,496
like one-offs. Then 2017 happened

786
00:49:27,076 --> 00:49:30,278
and things started to intensify a

787
00:49:30,318 --> 00:49:33,781
little bit. And so in an issue attention cycle, this

788
00:49:33,861 --> 00:49:37,343
theoretical framework that I used, step one is that you have this issue

789
00:49:37,403 --> 00:49:41,202
that's known by the people that affects most and

790
00:49:41,242 --> 00:49:45,585
probably some experts who are working on it, but it's not really something commonly

791
00:49:45,625 --> 00:49:49,368
known by the public. And then there's this period of intense

792
00:49:49,888 --> 00:49:53,471
enthusiasm or what they call alarm. Right. And

793
00:49:53,531 --> 00:49:56,714
so that's when there's a huge problem and it becomes sort

794
00:49:56,754 --> 00:49:59,996
of prevalent or more prevalent in the

795
00:50:00,016 --> 00:50:03,839
coverage that people start seeing. And that was 2017. That's when

796
00:50:03,859 --> 00:50:07,042
you started to hear Right. Well, dad, right. Well, dad, right.

797
00:50:11,164 --> 00:50:15,226
And then. Along with that is this enthusiasm that,

798
00:50:15,346 --> 00:50:18,667
you know, we're going to fix this. We have this problem. We can all

799
00:50:18,707 --> 00:50:22,109
do it. And then you move into this third stage, which

800
00:50:22,169 --> 00:50:25,291
is where you have to grapple with reality. It's you realize the

801
00:50:25,411 --> 00:50:29,172
cost of significant progress and that's where

802
00:50:29,212 --> 00:50:33,715
things start to fall apart a little bit. And then it decreases

803
00:50:33,875 --> 00:50:37,430
from there. And so there's a gradual

804
00:50:37,470 --> 00:50:40,832
decline in public interest at stage four. And

805
00:50:40,872 --> 00:50:44,955
then at stage five, the person who coined

806
00:50:44,995 --> 00:50:49,138
the issue attention cycle framework talks about the fact that it's

807
00:50:49,159 --> 00:50:52,421
kind of in limbo. The topic will remain something that people

808
00:50:52,441 --> 00:50:56,084
are interested in. Maybe it'll pop up here and there again, but it's

809
00:50:56,764 --> 00:50:59,947
probably not going to be as intense as it had been earlier in

810
00:50:59,987 --> 00:51:03,569
the cycle. We saw the same thing with COVID, right? It was this unknown

811
00:51:03,689 --> 00:51:06,939
thing that started. you know, in a far off place. And

812
00:51:06,979 --> 00:51:10,142
then it made its way over here. You know, we

813
00:51:10,182 --> 00:51:13,986
were all going to do this. All we need is a vaccine. Costs

814
00:51:14,046 --> 00:51:17,690
of significant progress. Oh, here's what closures mean.

815
00:51:17,710 --> 00:51:21,153
Debates over vaccines. And now where are we? People all

816
00:51:21,193 --> 00:51:24,837
but forget about COVID. So this is a fairly predictable way of

817
00:51:24,897 --> 00:51:28,601
looking at media and to take it back to right whales during

818
00:51:29,611 --> 00:51:33,772
that third stage, realizing the cost of significant progress, it

819
00:51:33,852 --> 00:51:38,014
really focused in on fishing gear entanglements. And

820
00:51:38,114 --> 00:51:41,835
so what did that mean for science

821
00:51:41,875 --> 00:51:45,677
communication? What did it mean? You know, for the overall discourse,

822
00:51:46,477 --> 00:51:50,138
there's lots of issues facing the right whale. They're all integrated. You

823
00:51:50,158 --> 00:51:53,579
brought up earlier climate change. There's vessel strikes. There are,

824
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,941
you know, there's ocean noise, there's entanglement. And

825
00:51:58,061 --> 00:52:01,930
so. What I saw was really excellent science communication.

826
00:52:02,871 --> 00:52:06,572
Focusing on the biggest issue that's causing the greatest harm that

827
00:52:07,393 --> 00:52:10,834
where there was an opportunity for the greatest conservation gain, which

828
00:52:10,894 --> 00:52:14,836
happened to be reducing the risk of entanglement for whales. Yeah.

829
00:52:16,316 --> 00:52:20,118
What came with that was this perception that environmental

830
00:52:20,138 --> 00:52:23,840
groups or whoever was singling

831
00:52:23,940 --> 00:52:27,702
out lobster fishermen and trying to do these nefarious things.

832
00:52:28,582 --> 00:52:31,998
Um, And what that did was

833
00:52:32,278 --> 00:52:35,900
increase the representation of lobster fishing voices who

834
00:52:35,940 --> 00:52:39,582
then in collaboration with journalists,

835
00:52:39,662 --> 00:52:43,245
and that's not like a thing that happens actively, it's just sort

836
00:52:43,285 --> 00:52:46,607
of how the reporting shook out, really

837
00:52:46,687 --> 00:52:50,149
focused on what harms further

838
00:52:50,189 --> 00:52:53,451
regulation on the fishing industry would do to

839
00:52:53,491 --> 00:52:57,093
them and their communities. And so it then became this debate

840
00:52:57,213 --> 00:53:00,827
between, I call it the clash of the titans, between

841
00:53:00,867 --> 00:53:04,370
protecting right whales or protecting lobster fishing rights,

842
00:53:04,450 --> 00:53:07,713
and only one side could win. And so that's

843
00:53:07,753 --> 00:53:11,656
really the thing that the media coverage overall

844
00:53:11,756 --> 00:53:15,299
focused on for the remainder of the time. You

845
00:53:15,339 --> 00:53:18,621
heard things about vessel strikes, some stuff about, you know,

846
00:53:19,342 --> 00:53:22,945
during the Trump administration, offshore oil exploration permits

847
00:53:22,985 --> 00:53:27,709
and undoing environmental regulations, that was mentioned. Biden

848
00:53:27,729 --> 00:53:31,422
took office in 2021. That's when the fishery service started

849
00:53:31,482 --> 00:53:34,604
to really explore new rules. There were a bunch of

850
00:53:34,744 --> 00:53:38,146
lawsuits. So it really just focused in on the fights.

851
00:53:38,886 --> 00:53:42,749
And even in stories that were focused on solutions, where

852
00:53:42,789 --> 00:53:46,611
there were stories that talked about fishermen who

853
00:53:46,651 --> 00:53:50,393
were really invested in, you know, so-called ropeless

854
00:53:50,433 --> 00:53:53,635
fishing gear technology and trying it out and were

855
00:53:53,675 --> 00:53:57,923
really committed to participating. for

856
00:53:57,943 --> 00:54:01,344
the benefit of right whales, even those stories included

857
00:54:01,444 --> 00:54:04,765
some kind of conflict, whether it was certain

858
00:54:04,825 --> 00:54:09,226
fishermen are calling these fishermen traders or the, the

859
00:54:09,286 --> 00:54:12,727
state government denied special permits to try out ropeless

860
00:54:12,768 --> 00:54:16,529
fishing gear. And that created a new conflict to consume. So

861
00:54:16,549 --> 00:54:20,030
like even those solution stories focused on a conflict

862
00:54:20,110 --> 00:54:23,371
because that's what people read. And then we got to this

863
00:54:23,451 --> 00:54:27,510
inflection point. where, as you mentioned earlier, seafood sustainability

864
00:54:27,550 --> 00:54:31,393
labels changed the designation of American lobster

865
00:54:31,594 --> 00:54:35,538
from U.S. and Canadian fisheries to an unsustainable source,

866
00:54:35,598 --> 00:54:38,921
citing right whales as the cause. That caught

867
00:54:38,941 --> 00:54:42,505
a lot of people's attention. Blue Apron, the meal kit company

868
00:54:42,545 --> 00:54:46,448
stopped carrying lobster, Whole Foods, Walmart, like

869
00:54:47,149 --> 00:54:52,250
pretty wide Yeah, pretty, pretty recognized organizations

870
00:54:52,551 --> 00:54:55,734
took notice and said, as part of our sustainability commitments, we're not

871
00:54:55,774 --> 00:55:00,038
going to carry lobster that caught Congress's attention. Right.

872
00:55:00,658 --> 00:55:04,562
And then. In an unrelated federal

873
00:55:04,602 --> 00:55:07,725
spending bill, all these things happen, right? Well, provisions were

874
00:55:07,765 --> 00:55:11,048
written in, took everybody by surprise where the

875
00:55:11,088 --> 00:55:14,457
fishery services. basically not

876
00:55:14,538 --> 00:55:18,519
allowed to impose any new regulations until

877
00:55:19,580 --> 00:55:23,381
2029. We came out of that period and into 2023 with

878
00:55:24,282 --> 00:55:27,963
lobstermen suing the Monterey Bay Aquarium for their Seafood Watch decision.

879
00:55:28,463 --> 00:55:31,845
So to answer your question in

880
00:55:31,985 --> 00:55:36,027
short, after all of that detail work, is

881
00:55:36,107 --> 00:55:39,488
really to say the coverage focused on conflict and

882
00:55:39,548 --> 00:55:43,393
disagreements and you

883
00:55:43,433 --> 00:55:47,575
know, the problem and scientists

884
00:55:47,635 --> 00:55:50,896
and environmental groups sort of stayed the course and they really tried to

885
00:55:50,936 --> 00:55:54,438
focus on rope as the issue, not fishing, not

886
00:55:54,518 --> 00:55:59,260
fishermen. It's rope that we want to address. You

887
00:55:59,300 --> 00:56:02,502
know, this is where our greatest gain is, and this is

888
00:56:02,562 --> 00:56:05,678
where we think our expectations are

889
00:56:05,718 --> 00:56:09,440
realistic. And then, you know, when you heard people talking

890
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:13,322
from a lobster fishery, whether it was individuals or groups, you

891
00:56:13,362 --> 00:56:16,784
know, they talked about themselves as this sort of small

892
00:56:16,824 --> 00:56:20,086
scale fishery that was being villainized when in fact they have a great

893
00:56:20,126 --> 00:56:23,508
deal of power and influence in that region. But they

894
00:56:24,268 --> 00:56:27,430
also compared themselves to right whales and

895
00:56:27,490 --> 00:56:31,613
called themselves endangered and said any regulations

896
00:56:32,073 --> 00:56:36,312
would cause them economic harm, It would harm their communities. And

897
00:56:36,352 --> 00:56:39,435
so it really became this story of we're stuck between a

898
00:56:39,475 --> 00:56:43,879
rock and a hard place and we have to pick one. And that

899
00:56:43,919 --> 00:56:47,603
doesn't necessarily reflect the scientific reality. It doesn't necessarily

900
00:56:47,683 --> 00:56:50,906
reflect where things had been, but it's what was

901
00:56:55,310 --> 00:56:58,467
So this is the interesting thing that I always have. You

902
00:56:58,487 --> 00:57:01,749
know, like obviously, you know, in stories, we like to have conflict, right?

903
00:57:01,769 --> 00:57:05,150
That makes a good story, you know. And that conflict

904
00:57:05,191 --> 00:57:09,153
happens, but at what cost? You know, from a journalistic perspective, you

905
00:57:09,473 --> 00:57:12,914
think you want to stay in the middle. Here's the one side, you

906
00:57:12,934 --> 00:57:16,596
know, especially when it came to small scale fishers who are using, you

907
00:57:16,616 --> 00:57:19,898
know, the lobster pots. And then here's the other side of

908
00:57:19,918 --> 00:57:24,100
a lot of NGOs, government workers and so forth who want to protect these,

909
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:30,321
these, you know, wonderful animals, these northern white whales. At

910
00:57:30,361 --> 00:57:33,504
what point do we just kind of say, hey, look, a story is a

911
00:57:33,544 --> 00:57:36,807
great story and that's wonderful, but at what point do we kind

912
00:57:36,847 --> 00:57:40,070
of hold journalists accountable to be like, where

913
00:57:40,110 --> 00:57:43,293
do we want to go from here? What do we want to

914
00:57:43,333 --> 00:57:46,957
do? We understand that there are two sides to this conflict. We

915
00:57:47,017 --> 00:57:50,420
want fishers to continue to fish. We want these animals

916
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:54,015
to grow in population and be healthy. And

917
00:57:54,055 --> 00:57:57,719
so from a from a media perspective, from a communication perspective, where

918
00:57:57,739 --> 00:58:01,182
do we be like, okay, we understand both sides, what's the best way forward?

919
00:58:01,803 --> 00:58:05,746
Oh, there's there's this new technology that allows ropeless crab

920
00:58:05,787 --> 00:58:10,669
pots and lobster pots. How about we say,

921
00:58:10,729 --> 00:58:13,971
hey, let's invest in this more so that

922
00:58:14,031 --> 00:58:17,293
we can decrease the amount of instances or the risk that

923
00:58:17,333 --> 00:58:21,136
these animals will get entangled because there'll be less pots. Now, I know the

924
00:58:21,176 --> 00:58:24,938
fishing community was not necessarily happy about the first iterations

925
00:58:25,138 --> 00:58:28,832
of these ropeless pots. But if

926
00:58:28,872 --> 00:58:32,414
you can have more significant investment, that means the technology, in

927
00:58:32,534 --> 00:58:35,716
theory, could move through faster. So at what

928
00:58:35,836 --> 00:58:39,679
point do the journalists be like, instead

929
00:58:39,699 --> 00:58:43,362
of getting the story and make the most conflicting story,

930
00:58:43,482 --> 00:58:47,084
or the one with the most conflict, and then get

931
00:58:47,185 --> 00:58:50,407
clicks or get papers to read, at what point do you just be

932
00:58:50,447 --> 00:58:54,390
like, let's move forward with the best option for both

933
00:58:57,274 --> 00:59:00,397
I wish I had a simple answer for that. Um, but

934
00:59:00,457 --> 00:59:04,240
I'm going to give the stock academic answer that I, we don't really know

935
00:59:04,260 --> 00:59:07,602
yet because this is so challenging. Um,

936
00:59:08,864 --> 00:59:12,326
I think generally with science and environmental journalism, there's

937
00:59:12,406 --> 00:59:16,870
just changes in the news industry where you don't have specialists

938
00:59:16,950 --> 00:59:20,533
covering a specific beat the way that you used to. So science and environment

939
00:59:20,633 --> 00:59:24,156
is now very broad. Right. And going

940
00:59:24,216 --> 00:59:27,806
back to the gray whale paper that I mentioned earlier, like Marine mammal

941
00:59:27,826 --> 00:59:31,468
conservation is a special kind of complex, right?

942
00:59:31,488 --> 00:59:35,010
There's just so many overlapping laws. These animals travel

943
00:59:35,050 --> 00:59:38,272
through jurisdictions. They intersect with

944
00:59:38,412 --> 00:59:41,813
lots of different human uses of the ocean. And there's

945
00:59:41,853 --> 00:59:45,215
just really robust conservation marketing behind them.

946
00:59:45,295 --> 00:59:49,457
So they, they are especially complicated, um, to

947
00:59:49,497 --> 00:59:53,439
communicate. And I think right whale conservation is

948
00:59:53,639 --> 00:59:56,828
extra complicated in that. because you

949
00:59:56,868 --> 01:00:01,211
have these interrelated issues. Climate is driving changes

950
01:00:01,291 --> 01:00:05,494
in their prey, which is leading whales to new and unexpected places in

951
01:00:05,534 --> 01:00:08,857
different aggregations. And there are lots

952
01:00:08,937 --> 01:00:12,519
of things that are threatening them. The math is bad,

953
01:00:13,060 --> 01:00:17,063
right? The population can't afford to lose a single individual

954
01:00:17,663 --> 01:00:20,906
each year, and we need to almost triple the birth rate. And

955
01:00:20,946 --> 01:00:24,668
what's the way to do that? Stop injuring and killing them. How

956
01:00:24,689 --> 01:00:28,165
do you do that? Well, there's shipping and then there's fishing and

957
01:00:28,185 --> 01:00:31,326
then there's noise and

958
01:00:31,366 --> 01:00:34,507
all kinds of stuff. So at some point, if you're a

959
01:00:35,167 --> 01:00:38,588
reporter or you're an editor trying to find the story

960
01:00:38,628 --> 01:00:42,208
that you want to include in your upcoming paper, you

961
01:00:42,248 --> 01:00:45,849
have to frame something and you have to exclude almost

962
01:00:46,149 --> 01:00:49,290
all of the other things to be able to tell a simple and

963
01:00:49,410 --> 01:00:52,951
clear journalistic story when the science behind

964
01:00:53,011 --> 01:00:56,486
it is very complex and you know, climate is

965
01:00:56,546 --> 01:01:00,469
a big factor here. That's the overarching

966
01:01:00,509 --> 01:01:04,031
like mega boss that's touching all of this. And

967
01:01:04,271 --> 01:01:07,433
the thing that we need to do is decarbonize and,

968
01:01:07,954 --> 01:01:11,276
and slow climate change and ocean warming and things like that.

969
01:01:12,077 --> 01:01:15,919
But in the meantime, this particular species doesn't have

970
01:01:15,999 --> 01:01:19,302
decades for, you know, figuring that out. Yeah.

971
01:01:19,582 --> 01:01:23,247
So, so it's kind of. Like the science and

972
01:01:23,267 --> 01:01:27,129
the reality has boxed things into a point where you

973
01:01:27,169 --> 01:01:31,410
have to make tough decisions and that emphasis on conservation technology.

974
01:01:31,570 --> 01:01:35,211
It's probably where the most conservation gains are, but

975
01:01:35,291 --> 01:01:38,693
focusing on technology as a solution. There's other

976
01:01:38,753 --> 01:01:42,574
research out there about this. It's just a

977
01:01:42,614 --> 01:01:45,935
really limiting strategy because it convinces non

978
01:01:46,895 --> 01:01:50,204
experts that there's nothing that they can do. to be part of that. That's for

979
01:01:50,224 --> 01:01:54,647
the engineers. That's for the experts. That's for the government to pay for. I'm

980
01:01:54,687 --> 01:01:58,390
good. Right. When you actually need that, that public

981
01:01:58,490 --> 01:02:02,133
pressure to create the kind of demand for

982
01:02:02,173 --> 01:02:05,836
the industry to adopt the technology. Right. Yeah. If,

983
01:02:05,916 --> 01:02:09,679
and when it's ready. And so I think

984
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:14,903
this is, this is why it's so interesting to me to look

985
01:02:37,007 --> 01:02:40,168
And it's true, if you, and the one thing I was thinking as you

986
01:02:40,208 --> 01:02:43,349
were saying that when you were talking is, if

987
01:02:43,409 --> 01:02:46,510
you start to throw all the complexities to people, to an

988
01:02:46,610 --> 01:02:50,351
audience, then they can get really down on the situation, and

989
01:02:50,491 --> 01:02:54,212
like, well, there's no way out. You know, you got climate change, you got ocean noise,

990
01:02:54,292 --> 01:02:57,693
you know, we're not gonna stop shipping from happening, we're not gonna stop fishing from happening.

991
01:02:58,933 --> 01:03:02,234
These animals are doomed, let's just forget about it. I remember when I first

992
01:03:02,274 --> 01:03:05,375
started a YouTube channel a number of years ago, like early 2012s,

993
01:03:05,395 --> 01:03:08,724
11s, you know one of the things that i focus

994
01:03:08,764 --> 01:03:11,845
on was all the issues but i'll talk about the issues and we'll we'll just you know if

995
01:03:11,885 --> 01:03:15,426
i talk about them the people listen to the more and i remember talking

996
01:03:15,446 --> 01:03:18,626
so that was a dinner with uh... the owner of my gym and we

997
01:03:18,646 --> 01:03:22,307
were and it was a group of us and she was like oh yeah i watch your videos that

998
01:03:22,367 --> 01:03:25,448
stop and i got really like that but that's not what we need to

999
01:03:25,488 --> 01:03:28,888
stop sick kept hearing is just negative negative negative and

1000
01:03:28,908 --> 01:03:32,410
i just felt helpless uh... like oh Oh, interesting.

1001
01:03:32,990 --> 01:03:36,172
Oh, OK. And so I started to really think about that and be like, I've got

1002
01:03:36,192 --> 01:03:39,455
to be careful of how many negative stories that

1003
01:03:39,495 --> 01:03:42,978
I cover. You still have to cover those

1004
01:03:43,038 --> 01:03:46,260
stories, but you have to show that optimism. And I went

1005
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:49,442
to a conference, International Marine Conservation Congress in

1006
01:03:50,503 --> 01:03:53,626
2014, and the theme was ocean optimism. I spoke to

1007
01:03:53,666 --> 01:03:56,868
a lot of people about that theme that weekend and just being like,

1008
01:03:57,298 --> 01:04:00,600
or that we can just be like it's important for us as

1009
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:04,023
scientists as communicators to put forth that hope

1010
01:04:04,603 --> 01:04:07,805
where we can see you know people adapt like with climate change a

1011
01:04:07,866 --> 01:04:10,988
lot of times you know i'll talk about climate change like yeah there's really no way out

1012
01:04:11,008 --> 01:04:14,430
of the range of my well might be good look at this you know country

1013
01:04:14,470 --> 01:04:17,853
down here and like in the philippines you got these fishing villages who

1014
01:04:17,913 --> 01:04:21,375
have like you know they know that there's gonna be typhoons they know they have marine protected

1015
01:04:21,415 --> 01:04:25,058
areas they've installed but then when a typhoon comes in and then it

1016
01:04:25,198 --> 01:04:28,501
kind of disrupts everything and they have no money, then they have to fish everything.

1017
01:04:28,561 --> 01:04:31,683
But now they've got a savings account that they've put together so that

1018
01:04:31,723 --> 01:04:35,026
when they do have these typhoons, well, they can come in,

1019
01:04:35,066 --> 01:04:38,549
they can use that money in the meantime, and then that holds

1020
01:04:38,589 --> 01:04:41,832
them over until that marine protected area kind of gets back to

1021
01:04:41,892 --> 01:04:45,055
normal, you know, gets out of the thing. There's just not added pressure to

1022
01:04:45,115 --> 01:04:48,476
that. And people are like, oh, wow, I didn't know that. That's really cool.

1023
01:04:48,496 --> 01:04:51,818
And so it's like me trying to get all these little

1024
01:04:51,898 --> 01:04:55,420
stories that may not be huge on

1025
01:04:55,660 --> 01:04:58,822
the global market of media, but it

1026
01:04:58,882 --> 01:05:02,383
kind of gives people a little bit of hope here and there and kind of piecing

1027
01:05:02,423 --> 01:05:06,306
those together. But it would be interesting to hear you

1028
01:05:06,326 --> 01:05:09,668
know i've always and i've always thought about this is like having focus groups and getting their

1029
01:05:09,708 --> 01:05:13,010
responses to certain episodes that i do to be like we

1030
01:05:13,150 --> 01:05:16,633
what were your thoughts on this on on this type of messaging and

1031
01:05:16,653 --> 01:05:20,195
what was your thoughts on this type of messaging you know what what if we throw all

1032
01:05:20,215 --> 01:05:23,457
of the gambits against the north atlantic right well just like what

1033
01:05:23,477 --> 01:05:26,639
are your thoughts after we talk about this you know and and the fact that the

1034
01:05:26,659 --> 01:05:30,181
hey they still have caps you know there's still some casual what are your thoughts and

1035
01:05:30,221 --> 01:05:33,955
then just talk about one issue because i feel as though Some

1036
01:05:34,015 --> 01:05:37,256
people will think and some audience members may think that

1037
01:05:37,296 --> 01:05:41,978
if we just cover like, you know, I did a story when Seafood

1038
01:05:42,018 --> 01:05:45,479
Watch pulled, Monterey Bay's Aquarium Seafood Watch pulled their support

1039
01:05:45,539 --> 01:05:49,440
for the lobster fishery, the main lobster fishery. And

1040
01:05:49,460 --> 01:05:52,701
I remember I covered that and so I'm sure some audience members are

1041
01:05:52,741 --> 01:05:56,382
like, well, if we can get rid of the fishing, then we can get the

1042
01:05:56,442 --> 01:06:00,008
whales back on track. Potentially. But

1043
01:06:00,048 --> 01:06:03,470
then there's a lot of other things that go like shipping is like they're notorious for

1044
01:06:03,490 --> 01:06:06,813
being hit by ships because they don't move very well when they're at the surface

1045
01:06:06,893 --> 01:06:10,035
or they sit just below the surface so they're really hard to see. So

1046
01:06:10,055 --> 01:06:13,137
there's that aspect. So it's interesting in

1047
01:06:13,177 --> 01:06:17,039
the way to go about it. But there are solutions. It's just you

1048
01:06:17,059 --> 01:06:20,362
have to throw the whole gambit of solutions to that

1049
01:06:20,582 --> 01:06:24,164
face. And it's just like you said, it gets more and more complex. And

1050
01:06:24,184 --> 01:06:27,807
I think that's the challenge for communicators in the future is how

1051
01:06:27,867 --> 01:06:31,330
can we try and simplify the problem? Or do we just talk

1052
01:06:31,370 --> 01:06:35,010
about the complexities and how we're addressing that complexity? Right?

1053
01:06:36,071 --> 01:06:39,392
Well, and I think going back to your point about wanting

1054
01:06:39,412 --> 01:06:42,992
to do focus groups on your own podcast, I did focus groups

1055
01:06:43,252 --> 01:06:46,733
with the two films that are out there that focus on right

1056
01:06:46,753 --> 01:06:50,034
whales. And I heard a lot of the same stuff,

1057
01:06:50,674 --> 01:06:54,275
right? Um, the two versions of the film, not

1058
01:06:56,956 --> 01:07:00,214
You've got one that is by a reporter who

1059
01:07:00,314 --> 01:07:03,775
reflects his reporting that he did throughout that period that

1060
01:07:03,796 --> 01:07:07,217
I researched. So it was about lobster fishing in new England, the

1061
01:07:07,257 --> 01:07:10,739
policy processes, the conflict, and it

1062
01:07:10,799 --> 01:07:14,021
doesn't leave with a resolution. And the other is

1063
01:07:14,061 --> 01:07:17,602
by a Canadian filmmaker focuses more on

1064
01:07:18,003 --> 01:07:21,704
Canada, Florida, throughout its range, doesn't

1065
01:07:21,744 --> 01:07:25,066
talk about policy. And there's only one fisherman in

1066
01:07:25,126 --> 01:07:28,698
it. And he is a participant in you know, whale research and rescue

1067
01:07:28,878 --> 01:07:32,579
and also trying out this gear. So you've got one conflict

1068
01:07:32,679 --> 01:07:35,820
and one solution story showed people and

1069
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:39,662
had these conversations. And just like you were saying, like

1070
01:07:39,762 --> 01:07:42,843
a lot of the feedback, the, the opening question that I

1071
01:07:42,883 --> 01:07:46,104
started every focus group with finish this

1072
01:07:46,124 --> 01:07:49,365
statement. When the credits rolled, I felt blank. And

1073
01:07:49,385 --> 01:07:53,787
I heard a lot of negative emotions for both films, hopeless,

1074
01:07:54,207 --> 01:07:57,597
defeated. I feel angry. And so through

1075
01:07:57,637 --> 01:08:00,940
conversation and probing that, what it comes down

1076
01:08:01,020 --> 01:08:05,564
to, and this is not unique to these two films. I

1077
01:08:05,645 --> 01:08:09,268
should lead with the fact that both of these films won awards.

1078
01:08:09,348 --> 01:08:12,951
They are well done, high quality. This is not unique

1079
01:08:12,991 --> 01:08:16,435
to these two films. This is something that people who

1080
01:08:16,495 --> 01:08:20,338
study environmental film ask often, which

1081
01:08:20,458 --> 01:08:23,968
is what are they supposed to do? How

1082
01:08:24,008 --> 01:08:29,211
are they supposed to play into conservation and policy? And

1083
01:08:29,251 --> 01:08:33,113
a lot of what I heard from people really just boils down to, they

1084
01:08:33,133 --> 01:08:36,595
spent so much time describing the problem, which I probably

1085
01:08:36,675 --> 01:08:41,017
could have understood in a couple scenes, but

1086
01:08:41,037 --> 01:08:44,339
then they left me with these big feelings, and I don't

1087
01:08:44,399 --> 01:08:47,661
know what to do with them, so I'm just going to pack them away.

1088
01:08:48,414 --> 01:08:51,775
And these are people who hear about right whales

1089
01:08:51,935 --> 01:08:55,336
in their local news when they pass by twice a year. These

1090
01:08:55,396 --> 01:08:58,717
are people who live by the ocean because they appreciate the ocean.

1091
01:08:59,197 --> 01:09:02,859
And I've heard from people, you know, all

1092
01:09:02,899 --> 01:09:06,220
kinds of political ideologies, different age groups where it's

1093
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:09,781
like, sure, I care about this issue, but the government

1094
01:09:09,821 --> 01:09:13,382
has to solve it. I don't know what I can do because I don't lobster fish

1095
01:09:13,622 --> 01:09:16,763
in new England. I don't have a boat. Right. And

1096
01:09:16,863 --> 01:09:20,206
so. Some other things I've

1097
01:09:20,246 --> 01:09:23,547
heard too, people, when I would ask, okay, the

1098
01:09:23,587 --> 01:09:26,808
film didn't tell you what you're supposed

1099
01:09:26,828 --> 01:09:30,049
to do. What do you think you could do? Almost everybody went to

1100
01:09:30,109 --> 01:09:33,631
boycotting certain types of seafood, which the film's never mentioned.

1101
01:09:34,671 --> 01:09:40,067
And so the fact that we just jumped to boycotts, has

1102
01:09:40,107 --> 01:09:43,430
some interesting implications. But then I heard from people

1103
01:09:43,450 --> 01:09:46,833
who are like, okay, I could boycott this seafood, but I don't eat lobster and

1104
01:09:46,873 --> 01:09:50,296
crab regularly. I'm not that wealthy. Or

1105
01:09:51,217 --> 01:09:54,720
I heard from a couple of people who say, okay, well, I'm not supposed to eat beef because

1106
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:58,364
of climate. I'm not supposed to eat chicken because of climate. I'm

1107
01:09:58,404 --> 01:10:02,147
not supposed to eat soybeans because of water. And now,

1108
01:10:02,327 --> 01:10:05,550
and now I'm not supposed to eat seafood because of whales. What

1109
01:10:05,590 --> 01:10:08,780
the heck can I And so that's where we talk about, yeah,

1110
01:10:09,641 --> 01:10:12,963
I mean, this is where we start to

1111
01:10:13,043 --> 01:10:17,106
hear from people that like outside messages do matter

1112
01:10:17,186 --> 01:10:20,648
because it places this context. And so the focus on

1113
01:10:20,689 --> 01:10:24,931
the problem is something that. Not

1114
01:10:24,972 --> 01:10:28,174
just these two films, but the reporting, um, that I looked at

1115
01:10:28,294 --> 01:10:31,456
really focused on, but it didn't really do the

1116
01:10:31,576 --> 01:10:34,738
follow through. Whereas lobster fishermen could tell you

1117
01:10:34,818 --> 01:10:38,127
what happens if there are more regulations. Right. Or

1118
01:10:38,427 --> 01:10:42,628
at least that's their argument. Yeah. So I think in

1119
01:10:42,668 --> 01:10:45,949
a situation that is so uncertain, we don't know

1120
01:10:46,029 --> 01:10:50,570
what happens to the ecosystems if right whales disappear. They've

1121
01:10:50,610 --> 01:10:53,731
been depleted for so long, you know,

1122
01:10:53,791 --> 01:10:57,271
maybe it's some localized effects or maybe it's part of a larger cascade. We

1123
01:10:57,291 --> 01:11:00,592
don't know. And so people recognize after seeing

1124
01:11:00,632 --> 01:11:03,733
these films, they know extinction is bad. They know we

1125
01:11:03,773 --> 01:11:07,311
need to avoid it. but they don't quite see

1126
01:11:07,391 --> 01:11:10,973
how they can get involved. And that left them feeling stuck and angry

1127
01:11:11,114 --> 01:11:15,076
and hopeless. And even when I did hear positive

1128
01:11:15,116 --> 01:11:18,619
emotions, it was in response to seeing this

1129
01:11:18,679 --> 01:11:22,241
incredible footage of right whales and not the story. And

1130
01:11:22,321 --> 01:11:26,805
so going back to your point, like there

1131
01:11:26,885 --> 01:11:30,527
has to be some kind of agency, but also

1132
01:11:31,608 --> 01:11:35,301
some of the things that we really need to do are kind of boring. When

1133
01:11:35,321 --> 01:11:39,582
we're talking about conservation technology and ropeless gear, I

1134
01:11:39,622 --> 01:11:42,883
heard from a lot of people. Oh, well, the federal

1135
01:11:42,923 --> 01:11:46,425
government should just fund that, but they didn't put that together with

1136
01:11:46,465 --> 01:11:49,746
the fact that federal agencies took budget cuts last

1137
01:11:49,786 --> 01:11:53,347
year or that every time you vote, that

1138
01:11:53,367 --> 01:11:56,748
has implications for right whales or each year

1139
01:11:57,028 --> 01:12:00,449
during congressional appropriations, you should reach out

1140
01:12:00,789 --> 01:12:04,024
and tell your, you know, members of Congress. that you

1141
01:12:04,064 --> 01:12:07,246
want to see funding for right whales, because if it's not in that

1142
01:12:07,326 --> 01:12:10,508
bill, there's no guarantee it gets done. And then

1143
01:12:10,548 --> 01:12:14,511
when you pose the question, okay, if we're paying for

1144
01:12:14,571 --> 01:12:17,913
conservation technology, what are we not paying for? What are we giving

1145
01:12:18,053 --> 01:12:21,695
up? Right. And those are tough conversations, but

1146
01:12:21,735 --> 01:12:25,838
like that civic engagement is really important. And

1147
01:12:25,858 --> 01:12:29,760
I'll go back just one more quick point about the conservation technology.

1148
01:12:30,953 --> 01:12:34,476
A lot of what I heard from people is like, well, the solutions right there.

1149
01:12:34,596 --> 01:12:38,098
It's this fishing gear. Everybody wins. Lobstermen

1150
01:12:38,138 --> 01:12:42,121
can keep fishing. Whale stopped getting entangled. Hopefully

1151
01:12:42,161 --> 01:12:45,544
these whale disentanglement people are out of a job and happy about

1152
01:12:45,624 --> 01:12:48,867
it, but nobody's really brought up the perspective of

1153
01:12:48,947 --> 01:12:53,090
the lobstermen either. What does it mean to be a fisherman? Right?

1154
01:12:53,130 --> 01:12:57,085
Like there, there's a huge sense of identity there. There's. there's

1155
01:12:57,205 --> 01:13:00,428
cultural importance of fishing the way that

1156
01:13:00,468 --> 01:13:03,870
their grandfathers or great grandfathers fished.

1157
01:13:03,990 --> 01:13:07,493
And that's missing from the conversation so that it's not just

1158
01:13:07,713 --> 01:13:11,976
Noah should pay for this technology to be developed and implemented. It's

1159
01:13:12,156 --> 01:13:16,159
also, how do you persuade an entire industry

1160
01:13:16,239 --> 01:13:20,302
that this can work and that this is worth doing?

1161
01:13:21,083 --> 01:13:24,318
And so I think, You

1162
01:13:24,358 --> 01:13:28,020
know, it's really hard to simplify the story and you have to make decisions

1163
01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:32,102
because there's no way one movie, one news article can

1164
01:13:32,142 --> 01:13:35,224
capture four plus decades of

1165
01:13:35,304 --> 01:13:38,446
science and conservation or nearly a century of

1166
01:13:38,486 --> 01:13:42,048
the right whale being endangered. But future movies

1167
01:13:42,348 --> 01:13:46,690
and future communications should explore some of these other topics, especially

1168
01:13:46,730 --> 01:13:50,312
because it's not just whale conservationists and

1169
01:13:50,452 --> 01:13:53,554
experts and lobster fishermen who are affected if we lose the

1170
01:13:53,594 --> 01:13:56,989
right whale. There are indigenous communities. Who

1171
01:13:57,029 --> 01:14:00,373
had no part in hunting the right whale to near extinction, who

1172
01:14:00,413 --> 01:14:03,696
would have to grapple with their losses. You know, what does that

1173
01:14:04,136 --> 01:14:07,239
do for conservation morale? Right. What

1174
01:14:07,279 --> 01:14:10,462
does it do in the ecosystem? So what does

1175
01:14:10,502 --> 01:14:14,025
it do for tourism? You know, I looked at whale watching websites in

1176
01:14:14,085 --> 01:14:17,949
another project. I didn't hear from whale watching operators in

1177
01:14:18,229 --> 01:14:21,562
news coverage or these films. or anything like that.

1178
01:14:22,023 --> 01:14:25,364
Right. So when we focus in, when

1179
01:14:25,384 --> 01:14:29,926
we focus in on these two, just Titans, we

1180
01:14:29,946 --> 01:14:33,528
sort of miss out on all the other color around that

1181
01:14:33,568 --> 01:14:36,969
for this black and white story. And then it just leaves people feeling like,

1182
01:14:37,029 --> 01:14:41,591
well, that's a big bummer. I

1183
01:14:41,651 --> 01:14:45,353
have to focus on the cost of living right now or

1184
01:14:45,393 --> 01:14:48,614
my job or parenting. So

1185
01:14:50,101 --> 01:14:53,724
Yes, it's too complicated. I can't figure it out on my own. I think it's

1186
01:14:53,764 --> 01:14:56,886
really interesting, too. You mentioned a couple of things. One, looking at

1187
01:14:56,927 --> 01:15:00,810
documentaries in general, the one that when you mentioned they

1188
01:15:00,850 --> 01:15:04,192
talk, they focus mostly on the problem, and then they don't

1189
01:15:04,212 --> 01:15:07,395
really give time all the time for the solution. Well, the

1190
01:15:07,435 --> 01:15:10,618
same thing happened. I remember watching Chasing Coral. That's another one

1191
01:15:10,638 --> 01:15:13,840
where they focus too much or they focus so much on the problem, which

1192
01:15:14,661 --> 01:15:17,943
cool technology, really interesting to see. But you felt

1193
01:15:17,983 --> 01:15:21,146
depressed at the end. You even see scientists like crying as they're like

1194
01:15:21,186 --> 01:15:24,829
looking at the Great Barrier Reef, you know, at a conference that's bleached

1195
01:15:24,869 --> 01:15:28,391
by 90%. And then after that, their only solution

1196
01:15:28,431 --> 01:15:31,674
was to go into kids' classrooms and, you know, tell kids

1197
01:15:31,734 --> 01:15:35,357
about corals and how important they are and this and that. And you're just kind of like sitting

1198
01:15:35,377 --> 01:15:38,659
here. And I remember like seeing on Twitter and

1199
01:15:38,719 --> 01:15:41,942
on social media the reactions to the movies and just being like,

1200
01:15:42,588 --> 01:15:45,831
I feel like, well, there go corals. That's it for them.

1201
01:15:45,931 --> 01:15:50,235
Too bad. Dive while you can. And it was

1202
01:15:50,275 --> 01:15:53,618
disheartening after a while to look at that and just be like, oh

1203
01:15:53,678 --> 01:15:57,161
man, that's how people see these when we do these videos. It's

1204
01:15:57,282 --> 01:16:00,441
so important. to do what

1205
01:16:00,461 --> 01:16:03,583
you talked about and start talking about look like you

1206
01:16:03,643 --> 01:16:07,006
may yeah you can avoid seafood if you if that's

1207
01:16:07,026 --> 01:16:10,729
what you choose to do everybody makes their own choices but

1208
01:16:10,749 --> 01:16:14,011
it's also like talking about the policy and being like if you

1209
01:16:14,151 --> 01:16:17,554
vote for this type of candidate they're

1210
01:16:17,594 --> 01:16:21,956
more likely to fund you know environmental legislation

1211
01:16:21,996 --> 01:16:25,517
or environmental for for environmental policies or put in environmental

1212
01:16:25,557 --> 01:16:28,838
policies and regulations to help these animals so

1213
01:16:28,898 --> 01:16:32,539
now you're doing it just by putting a vote you're helping them in that respect

1214
01:16:32,719 --> 01:16:35,901
and yes you can still avoid you know, plastics, you can

1215
01:16:35,921 --> 01:16:39,083
still avoid, you know, seafood if you choose to

1216
01:16:39,143 --> 01:16:43,266
do that. But at least you're giving, you're hitting it for like a multifaceted, solutions

1217
01:16:43,306 --> 01:16:46,629
are multifaceted just as much as the issues that

1218
01:16:46,649 --> 01:16:50,792
hit us. So I think that's a really interesting thing

1219
01:16:50,832 --> 01:16:54,935
to point out when we talk about these types of stories is focusing

1220
01:16:55,115 --> 01:16:58,938
on all the things that we can do from small to tall

1221
01:16:59,018 --> 01:17:02,100
just by voting. You know, and that's one thing I focus on

1222
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:05,368
here is, it's always voting you know is it of

1223
01:17:05,509 --> 01:17:09,257
very important election coming up you know for it for the u s uh...

1224
01:17:09,438 --> 01:17:13,046
it seems like and is not far behind in terms of our federal government

1225
01:17:14,712 --> 01:17:19,434
it's, it's, it's so important to highlight

1226
01:17:19,474 --> 01:17:23,056
that, you know, especially with these days, when the

1227
01:17:23,116 --> 01:17:26,677
parties are so, you know, black and white in terms of their differences,

1228
01:17:27,138 --> 01:17:30,239
and what they're going to fund and what they're not going to find, it seems like one party is more apt to

1229
01:17:30,279 --> 01:17:34,441
fund environmental legislation and put in environmental legislation

1230
01:17:34,601 --> 01:17:38,162
than others. And I think that's, I feel I feel that's really interesting.

1231
01:17:38,503 --> 01:17:41,604
And trying to get out of the hole, let's put environment to

1232
01:17:41,624 --> 01:17:45,245
the side, because we have all these other issues to deal with. and

1233
01:17:45,405 --> 01:17:48,926
try and bring it in and be like, yeah, well, we can deal with all of them together, I

1234
01:17:48,946 --> 01:17:52,007
think is really important. But Marcus, this has been a

1235
01:17:52,808 --> 01:17:56,349
riveting discussion. I'd love to invite you back on.

1236
01:17:56,409 --> 01:17:59,550
We're coming up on time, but I'd love to invite you back on to talk more about this.

1237
01:17:59,930 --> 01:18:03,651
Maybe after once you become a doctor, I'll be able to call you Dr. Marcus

1238
01:18:03,711 --> 01:18:06,852
Reamer. which I'm looking forward to doing. But I want to

1239
01:18:06,872 --> 01:18:10,032
thank you for coming on and discussing this with us.

1240
01:18:10,112 --> 01:18:14,293
It's not often we get to really dive deep into communications, and

1241
01:18:14,313 --> 01:18:18,494
I want more and more people on that. I'm starting to meet more science communicators

1242
01:18:18,574 --> 01:18:22,135
out here in this, you know, digital universe,

1243
01:18:22,195 --> 01:18:25,855
and being able to discuss it more. Because one

1244
01:18:25,875 --> 01:18:29,818
of the things I tell our audience is, We

1245
01:18:29,858 --> 01:18:33,020
need to talk about this. The one thing is to be

1246
01:18:33,100 --> 01:18:36,502
aware and learn, but we need to continue to discuss this

1247
01:18:37,083 --> 01:18:40,265
on multiple levels. And the

1248
01:18:40,285 --> 01:18:43,827
more we can learn how to do it, the better. So I

1249
01:18:43,867 --> 01:18:47,169
think it's great to have you on, and I'm looking forward to having you back

1250
01:18:47,309 --> 01:18:50,931
on after your PhD and after you relax a little bit. I'm sure you'll

1251
01:18:52,972 --> 01:18:56,294
Who knows what it is to relax in a life like mine.

1252
01:18:57,673 --> 01:19:01,916
You know, I do another masters at some point, you know, my, my

1253
01:19:01,956 --> 01:19:05,398
parents joke that my only option, you know, I'm squeamish, so

1254
01:19:05,418 --> 01:19:08,860
I can't go to med school. So I might just go get an MFA or

1255
01:19:08,900 --> 01:19:12,822
a JD. But, um, if

1256
01:19:12,842 --> 01:19:16,064
there's one message that I want to leave off on

1257
01:19:16,385 --> 01:19:19,486
with hopes that we can speak again in the future, you know, I

1258
01:19:19,506 --> 01:19:24,730
would love to come back. Um, a lot of what I've found, not

1259
01:19:24,750 --> 01:19:28,224
just in my experience with PhD research, but, but

1260
01:19:28,304 --> 01:19:31,666
throughout my career is that we tend

1261
01:19:32,547 --> 01:19:37,109
to think of communication as a thing that just happens. And

1262
01:19:38,409 --> 01:19:41,791
that's changing, you know, for, for climate communication, for

1263
01:19:41,871 --> 01:19:45,153
other forms of environmental communication, but for

1264
01:19:45,333 --> 01:19:48,875
ocean topics specifically, there are certain

1265
01:19:50,336 --> 01:19:53,967
barriers to public engagement that We

1266
01:19:54,027 --> 01:19:57,549
have to learn how to do really well. We have to understand

1267
01:19:57,589 --> 01:20:00,971
them and we have to put money behind that. Funders have to,

1268
01:20:01,191 --> 01:20:05,093
to incorporate that into research. We need more people to

1269
01:20:05,534 --> 01:20:09,536
take an interest in researching ocean communication because

1270
01:20:09,956 --> 01:20:13,218
you know, things that I've heard from people who walk on the beach every

1271
01:20:13,278 --> 01:20:16,400
single day, whether it's in Florida or whether it's here in

1272
01:20:16,420 --> 01:20:20,742
Maryland and Delaware is that it feels far away. Right.

1273
01:20:21,980 --> 01:20:25,423
So there, there's a perceived distance, but then you have to think most

1274
01:20:25,463 --> 01:20:28,726
of the world does not live next to the ocean

1275
01:20:28,766 --> 01:20:32,669
and experience it every day. So there is a real distance too. And

1276
01:20:32,749 --> 01:20:36,132
so the, the thing that I find to be important, yeah,

1277
01:20:36,212 --> 01:20:39,815
the stuff that I've done with right whales, I hope will be helpful not

1278
01:20:39,855 --> 01:20:43,918
to just to that cause, but to figuring

1279
01:20:44,079 --> 01:20:47,281
out how we can incorporate communication into

1280
01:20:47,361 --> 01:20:50,654
comprehensive conservation strategies, whether that's

1281
01:20:50,714 --> 01:20:53,916
research or practice, to make the most of

1282
01:20:53,956 --> 01:20:57,159
this ocean decade and beyond. So how

1283
01:20:57,219 --> 01:21:00,762
can funders do more to support social science that

1284
01:21:00,802 --> 01:21:04,144
incorporates communication? How can we

1285
01:21:04,244 --> 01:21:08,248
support more interdisciplinary work, you know, with

1286
01:21:08,828 --> 01:21:12,011
the limited funding that we have for all the big challenges that

1287
01:21:12,031 --> 01:21:15,753
we need to address? So ocean communication is certainly something

1288
01:21:15,794 --> 01:21:19,322
that I I'm interested in, I've gotten good at, but

1289
01:21:19,742 --> 01:21:23,104
there are just barriers that are in the way that we need an all hands

1290
01:21:23,164 --> 01:21:27,047
on deck approach to, to help achieve a lot of those sustainability

1291
01:21:27,087 --> 01:21:30,209
goals. So yeah, I

1292
01:21:30,249 --> 01:21:34,192
think that's, that's my closing message. If there is one, it's, it's one

1293
01:21:34,232 --> 01:21:37,414
of hope and optimism and a call for action, which is

1294
01:21:37,674 --> 01:21:41,037
we got to put money behind it and bring people like you and

1295
01:21:41,057 --> 01:21:44,224
I into the fold. Um, to help make

1296
01:21:44,265 --> 01:21:47,668
sense of some of this stuff, not just for non-expert audiences, but

1297
01:21:48,208 --> 01:21:53,853
for the people who are directly involved as well. Filmmakers, journalists,

1298
01:21:54,413 --> 01:21:58,237
nature writers, you name it. Communication

1299
01:21:58,297 --> 01:22:01,920
scholars and practitioners are really valuable resources to

1300
01:22:05,826 --> 01:22:08,987
Absolutely, absolutely. Marcus, this was wonderful. Thank you

1301
01:22:09,027 --> 01:22:12,368
so much for coming on the podcast. Looking forward to having you back. Looking

1302
01:22:12,408 --> 01:22:15,769
forward to hearing that you have successfully achieved that

1303
01:22:15,869 --> 01:22:19,010
PhD and that doctor status. And I can't wait to

1304
01:22:19,050 --> 01:22:22,592
see what you're up to next. It's going to be a lot of fun, whether it's another graduate

1305
01:22:22,632 --> 01:22:26,093
degree or working in the rest of us. It's

1306
01:22:26,113 --> 01:22:29,274
going to be a lot of fun. But I want to thank you again for coming on the podcast. And

1307
01:22:33,370 --> 01:22:36,633
Thank you, Marcus, for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean

1308
01:22:36,653 --> 01:22:40,377
podcast. This was an episode that went a little longer than normal. Apologize for

1309
01:22:40,417 --> 01:22:43,921
that. You know, we're getting in, we're geeking out about it. I really, I really appreciated

1310
01:22:43,961 --> 01:22:47,624
Marcus's time, of course. Thank you, Marcus. But this is something that,

1311
01:22:47,885 --> 01:22:51,368
you know, we're going to have more conversations on. He's got to prepare for his PhD and

1312
01:22:51,428 --> 01:22:54,571
he's willing to talk all the time. about this and I'm sure we

1313
01:22:54,591 --> 01:22:57,954
could have gone on for another couple of hours, but we're not Joe Rogan,

1314
01:22:58,134 --> 01:23:01,196
we don't have the three-hour podcast, so I want to kind of keep it

1315
01:23:01,216 --> 01:23:04,379
a little tight and make sure that we were talking about, you

1316
01:23:04,419 --> 01:23:07,542
know, the issues that we want to talk about and the topics that we

1317
01:23:07,582 --> 01:23:12,065
want to talk about, but we're going to talk about more about environmental conservation

1318
01:23:12,365 --> 01:23:15,508
and communication when he comes back on and I'm

1319
01:23:15,528 --> 01:23:18,651
looking forward to that happening and hopefully I will be talking to him as a

1320
01:23:19,131 --> 01:23:22,501
doctor at that point. But I want to thank Marcus for joining us,

1321
01:23:22,561 --> 01:23:26,506
and I want to thank you for listening, because like I said before at the beginning of this episode, this

1322
01:23:26,606 --> 01:23:29,970
is a way for all of us to learn about communication, because we all

1323
01:23:29,990 --> 01:23:33,574
have to communicate that message. Whether we're communicating to our politicians,

1324
01:23:33,594 --> 01:23:37,218
whether we're communicating to our family members, our friends, our colleagues, getting

1325
01:23:37,258 --> 01:23:40,742
people connected to the ocean is really important when we talk about protecting the

1326
01:23:40,822 --> 01:23:44,223
ocean. Whether you live in Ontario like me, surrounded by the great lakes

1327
01:23:44,263 --> 01:23:47,523
and beautiful rivers and watersheds, that's how I feel connected to

1328
01:23:47,543 --> 01:23:50,884
the ocean. Every time I look at water, I think about the ocean. That's me

1329
01:23:50,944 --> 01:23:54,585
personally. Not everybody feels that way. You know, I remember, you

1330
01:23:54,605 --> 01:23:58,186
know, just a quick anecdote. I remember being at a conference in PEI

1331
01:23:58,746 --> 01:24:02,207
and they were talking about how people who live in Toronto, you know, when you

1332
01:24:02,327 --> 01:24:05,808
sit at Bloor Street, you know, and young and you look down towards

1333
01:24:05,828 --> 01:24:08,969
the water, you look south towards the water, You can't see the water from

1334
01:24:09,009 --> 01:24:12,331
there. Obviously, it's a big way. There's a lot of land in between that,

1335
01:24:12,691 --> 01:24:16,053
but there are buildings in between that. And the lakeshore now

1336
01:24:16,153 --> 01:24:19,715
is just covered and peppered with condos, and not necessarily

1337
01:24:19,755 --> 01:24:23,057
a good thing. And so you're not seeing the lake. You're

1338
01:24:23,078 --> 01:24:26,340
not seeing that water body. You're not seeing the shoreline. And

1339
01:24:26,400 --> 01:24:30,142
that could affect the way you feel connected to

1340
01:24:30,382 --> 01:24:33,664
a big body of water, like Lake Ontario, or like any of the other Great

1341
01:24:33,704 --> 01:24:37,847
Lakes, or like an ocean body, or a major river like the St. Lawrence River. That

1342
01:24:37,907 --> 01:24:41,128
matters. And so planning a city, making sure

1343
01:24:41,168 --> 01:24:44,249
that we all feel connected, make sure that we talk about the benefits of

1344
01:24:44,349 --> 01:24:47,629
water, the benefits of being close to water and seeing water

1345
01:24:47,649 --> 01:24:51,130
on a regular basis, whether it's any body of water, that's

1346
01:24:51,190 --> 01:24:54,471
really important. And being able to talk about it and being able

1347
01:24:54,511 --> 01:24:58,152
to make sure that we get that message across is critical to

1348
01:24:58,252 --> 01:25:01,673
protecting the ocean and protecting our water bodies on this planet, which covers most

1349
01:25:01,693 --> 01:25:04,853
of the planet. So, you know, we need to talk about it more. We need to learn that.

1350
01:25:04,893 --> 01:25:08,154
And so I want to thank Marcus for coming on the podcast again. to

1351
01:25:08,174 --> 01:25:11,675
be able to help us talk about that and teach us about what

1352
01:25:11,815 --> 01:25:15,616
he learned through his dissertation and what we can learn from him and

1353
01:25:15,656 --> 01:25:18,917
this podcast. So I want to thank him again. I want to thank you for listening and

1354
01:25:18,938 --> 01:25:22,098
you for putting in the time and the effort to help protect the ocean the

1355
01:25:22,138 --> 01:25:25,460
way that you do. And I'd love to hear your questions or comments about this

1356
01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:29,021
episode. You can hit me up on Spotify. You can comment there. You

1357
01:25:29,061 --> 01:25:32,402
can comment on a YouTube channel where this will be put. And you

1358
01:25:32,422 --> 01:25:36,223
can also reach out to me on Instagram at HowToProtectTheOcean if

1359
01:25:36,243 --> 01:25:39,385
you're listening too. your favorite podcast app and they don't have the comments. I don't

1360
01:25:39,405 --> 01:25:42,787
understand why podcasts don't have comments right on the episodes. That would be so cool.

1361
01:25:42,847 --> 01:25:46,510
I like the way Spotify is going about it in the way that they have interaction.

1362
01:25:46,590 --> 01:25:50,193
So that would be cool. Let's see what we can conjure

1363
01:25:50,233 --> 01:25:53,435
up in this episode and the questions that come in, the comments that come in. I'd love

1364
01:25:53,455 --> 01:25:56,618
to hear your comments later on. So thank you so

1365
01:25:56,658 --> 01:26:00,240
much for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Have